Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Holeypaladin]

Nerfs are bad.  I hate nerfs.  No one likes to see their stuff nerfed.

 

I'd rather see people continue to play Trinity as a tanky support girl, just make Rhino more tanky than trinity is all.

 

Just soloed ODS up to 20min easily with Loki.  Loki isn't so much a tank, per se, but he can easily avoid all enemy damage.  So a dodge tank, I suppose.  And much better at it than Rhino.  Not going past 20 simply because I have no shortage of ODS keys and the part I want drops at 20m.

[RealPandemonium]

So every time DE messes up and releases overpowered S#&$ they should buff everything else just to be fair?

[Holeypaladin]

So every time DE messes up and releases overpowered S#&$ they should buff everything else just to be fair?

Yes, exactly.

 

Especially considering it's easier to buff one or two frames than to nerf five.

[RealPandemonium]

Yes, exactly.

 

Especially considering it's easier to buff one or two frames than to nerf five.

There you have it from his mouth, ladies and gentlemen.  

 

I can't wait to play Warframe a year from now when everything is so overpowered that you have to stay in a survival for 4 hours to start having a chance to lose!  At least it will be easier to farm the things that make it easier to farm more things so that you can have things to use against those level 1000 enemies, though.

Edited January 12, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[SIDESTRE4M]

 

I covered this in my post; the immunity to CC is irrelevant when it doesn't last beyond the cast animation... which'll happen even in the areas the game is supposedly balanced around (which bare minimum, is at least 20 mins/20 waves in T4, due to the simple fact going that far is required to get certain drops).

 

Hint, it doesn't resist CC or status from any attack that depletes it, which on later planets/non-endless T4 is pretty much all of them, particularly rockets and grenades.

 

Fact remains, yeah, the frame's usable, but not in the role what it was designed to fill - again, it's not a coincidence that the first iterations of post-nerf IS had aggro draw. It was intended as a tanking ability, first and foremost.

 

I never had any problems using Rhino within desired balancing area. And I play him... only once a while. I'm not even an dedicated Rhino player.

He has all the tools he need to survive.

 

And that area where Iron Skin is oneshot, I dare you to facetank anything. Even with Mesa.

 

Roles are screwed up in Warframe and personally I don't think we need classic rpg roles. I don't need a tank who draws fire. Warframe doesn't work this way.

[Holeypaladin]

And that area where Iron Skin is oneshot, I dare you to facetank anything. Even with Mesa.

Already have.  T4 survival, 40 minute run, by the end the bombards one-shot Rhino through iron skin.  I was taking their bombard hits to the face while using Mirage and laughing at them before getting up and killing them.

[Skepsis]

Really confused on how this thread got so many pages.

 

Iron Skin is in a perfect spot right now, You have options if building Support/CC or Iron Skin. Which is the versatility that Rhino needed.

 

Why can't all the frames have strengths and weaknesses, Why does everything have to be about what is "OP"

 

What is designated as Overpowered is a Utility for another,

 

This thread is kind-of like talking about the Boltor, don't like it, don't use it. But why ruin it for those who like it.

 

Shouldn't be about balance, should be about having fun. Face tanking isn't fun.

[RealPandemonium]

Already have.  T4 survival, 40 minute run, by the end the bombards one-shot Rhino through iron skin.  I was taking their bombard hits to the face while using Mirage and laughing at them before getting up and killing them.

Bombards should be toned down in either damage or spawn rate or both and Mirage's raw damage reduction on Eclipse should be reduced so that immortality is unattainable.  

[Holeypaladin]

Face tanking is lots of fun.  It may not be fun to you, but why deny face tanking to those who like it?

 

Currently, Rhino is not even in the top 5 most tanky frames.  This is pretty terrible, since he was THE original tank frame of choice.  Between nerfed tank powers and the introduction of superior damage reduction abilities among many other frames, Rhino hasn't been a tank for a year and a half now... people just don't seem to realize this at first, since iron skin is good for low level content and they often don't try the really tanky frames since they're satisfied with Rhino.

 

But if you actually look at all the abilities of all the other frames... Rhino has no place right now.  Everything he can do, other frames can do much better, for less energy.  For those people who want to return to playing Rhino, an improvement to iron skin is in order, to make it work with high level content and go back towards the top of the 5 most tanky frames (doesn't even have to be number one... it can be number two behind Valkyr for all I care).

 

As far as nerfing Mirage's invulnerability... you'd also have to nerf Mesa, Trinity, Valkyr, and Loki.  Or just buff iron skin to be a more tanky ability than eclipse.  Which one is easier?  Probably the buff to iron skin.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Beetamus]

Really confused on how this thread got so many pages.

 

Iron Skin is in a perfect spot right now, You have options if building Support/CC or Iron Skin. Which is the versatility that Rhino needed.

 

Why can't all the frames have strengths and weaknesses, Why does everything have to be about what is "OP"

 

What is designated as Overpowered is a Utility for another,

 

This thread is kind-of like talking about the Boltor, don't like it, don't use it. But why ruin it for those who like it.

 

Shouldn't be about balance, should be about having fun. Face tanking isn't fun.

Just because you find face tanking not fun, doesn't mean mean it's not fun for someone else.

 

And yes, I agree that all of the abilities that offer high damage reduction should be removed, as I would rather see nerfs than power creep.

[SIDESTRE4M]

I think there is a little bit of misunderstanding when throwing words like tanks around.

 

Normally, beeing a classic tank, would mean for Rhino, that he has around 10000 health and is restricted to weapons that deal less damage, but raise aggro.

 

Then the group consisting of a Trinity, a Nova and another frame organize arround the tank. Trinity is not allowed to shoot because that would draw aggro. So Rhino begins facetanking enemies while getting constantly healed and damage is done by the rest.

 

That... is a tank.

 

Rhino is more tanky than other frames. He fits a specific playrole for those who want that type of gameplay he offers.

 

Beeing lazy and standing inmidst a group of high level enemies while laughing his &#! off, I'm afraid, is not part of that and should not be part of that.

 

Mesa is hard to judge because without shattershield she oractically is Ember 2.

 

Mirage is gambling because the lightning can screw you. It's about taking risks. In practical terms it may mean it works out too well, but that's not part of Rhino.

[Holeypaladin]

There are five frames that are better at taking damage than Rhino is, how can  you say he's more tanky than other frames when he's that far behind?

 

And actually, a main battle tank has a 120mm cannon on it.  I hardly call that "weapons that deal less damage."

 

This is a tank:

 

 

Notice the armor. Notice the gun.  That's what a real tank is.  Rhino should be that, but with feet.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[SIDESTRE4M]

Actually there are more frames that are less tanky.

 

I can accept Trinity beeing superior, but Valkyr is limited to melee which is subpar, Mesa cannot facetank at high levels either. Mirage is dependent on lacalisation and taking risks.

 

Your definition of a tanky Rhino would mean, he gets his speed massively nerved as well. Tanks aren't fast you know.

 

Anyways good luck with your suggestion and using a real life tank as an argument.

 

On a side note: A tank does less damage than bombers and spectre and stuff, beeing the fast nukers.

Yeah I think I can go with that. Thrak Rhino ftw.

Edited January 12, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Holeypaladin]

Rhino is already the slowest frame in the game.  What more are you asking for?  Arcane helmets are limited edition and can't be obtained anymore, so they're not part of the equation.

 

There may be frames less tanky than Rhino, but he's far from being the most tanky in his current position.  Currently, he is obsolete, since everything he can do can be done much better by other frames.

[SIDESTRE4M]

You can't deny though, that he totally rocks the starmap.

 

At higher levels, CC is the way to go anyways until DE decides to change that.

[letir]

DE get rid of old immortal frames, but introduce new facetanking girls, such as Valkyr, Zephyr, Mirage and Mesa. This is totaly unfair and obviosly not balanced, but they don't give a s**t.

Edited January 12, 2015 by letir

[Holeypaladin]

At the later planets, he falls off as far as rocking the starmap goes.  His iron skin is no longer viable as a damage reduction power by Ceres, Eris, and Pluto.  But for the first half of the game, yes it is an effective power in that it lasts longer than the duration-based reduction powers for low-ranked players who lack the duration/efficiency mods required to keep those powers up for long periods of time.

 

But it's the fact that iron skin is so effective at low levels that made me propose the idea of having Rhino Prime use a different version of iron skin than the regular Rhino.

[fatpig84]

And you know what is funny ?

Rhino 2nd IS iteration gave him 85% DR on IS.

 

With no drawbacks (IE no wonky light / shadow mechanics, no weak sauce weakness like weak against splash or melee or whatever) it was like Link but better.

 

But Rhino players whined so hard that DE dropped that concept and gave him fixed HP for his IS.

In fact this was the doing of YOU Rhino players.

 

So yes, you guys now asking for a %DR buff now is hilarious.

Blame it on yourselves last time people. Lawl.

Edited January 12, 2015 by fatpig84

[SIDESTRE4M]

I don't have a problem with changing Iron Skin. I have a problem with the premise of what Rhino will be.

 

Personally I cast Iron Skin and play as if I don't have it. I still take softcover and stuff, so maybe that's because I don't see the problem as much as others do because Iron Skin saves me from surprise knockdowns, I still try to dodge.

My primary frames are everlasting Volt, then Nyx, Loki, Vauban. Frames who are rather squishy and rely on utility to survive.

[anercan]

Yeah lets make him a super tank, but nerf his other abilities. Like valkyr, make only one ability worth using. Lets have his irons skin not have a hp pool and have a timer instead(I don't know whats a good amount umm 20 seconds max rank sounds fair), move it to his ult so it is 100 power base. his stomp can be his 3rd but instead of knocking up enemies in stasis just do a short stagger on them, his roar will only effect himself, and his first ability will stop at the first enemy hit. Now he is the best at tanking, he invincible like valkyr, but can use his guns.

[Holeypaladin]

And you know what is funny ?

Rhino 2nd IS iteration gave him 85% DR on IS.

 

With no drawbacks (IE no wonky light / shadow mechanics, no weak sauce weakness like weak against splash or melee or whatever) it was like Link but better.

 

But Rhino players whined so hard that DE dropped that concept and gave him fixed HP for his IS.

In fact this was the doing of YOU Rhino players.

 

So yes, you guys now asking for a %DR buff now is hilarious.

Blame it on yourselves last time people. Lawl.

Wow... that was a really bad decision on the part of those Rhino players.

 

Although I suppose at the time, the iron skin power was very useful against the enemies at that time since they dealt a lot less damage than T4 enemies of today, but still... it'd be nice to return to 2nd iteration iron skin.  My suggestion was actually for a 75% reduction rather than 85%, but scaling to power (probably with a cap around 95% like shatter shield and eclipse).

 

 

Yeah lets make him a super tank, but nerf his other abilities. Like valkyr, make only one ability worth using. Lets have his irons skin not have a hp pool and have a timer instead(I don't know whats a good amount umm 20 seconds max rank sounds fair), move it to his ult so it is 100 power base. his stomp can be his 3rd but instead of knocking up enemies in stasis just do a short stagger on them, his roar will only effect himself, and his first ability will stop at the first enemy hit. Now he is the best at tanking, he invincible like valkyr, but can use his guns.

I actually wouldn't mind this, but if Roar only affects himself I'd prefer to see it buffed to like 100% instead of 50%.  Roar will never be as good at buffing a team as M-prime is, anyway.

[fatpig84]

Wow... that was a really bad decision on the part of those Rhino players.

 

Although I suppose at the time, the iron skin power was very useful against the enemies at that time since they dealt a lot less damage than T4 enemies of today, but still... it'd be nice to return to 2nd iteration iron skin.  My suggestion was actually for a 75% reduction rather than 85%, but scaling to power (probably with a cap around 95% like shatter shield and eclipse).

 

Their argument was that %DR and duration based meant that Rhino cannot regen his shields while under fire.

Personally I saw no issue, i meant even pre-armor buff, he already had a decent buffer and armor as well or you can cast IS early instead.

 

 

What I guess was they were "too addicted" to the original Iron Skin.

And too used to taking 0 damage.

A %DR IS will let them take damage and that was unacceptable *hurr*.

 

That is why DE settled on the 3rd iteration (with tweaks), a hp based buffer.

Yes your iron skin will fall off in level 45 to level 50 content, but for most the 1st 30+ levels, you can play like the original Rhino.

 

Practically untouchable at low levels, great CC immunity and can last a very good while, as long you dodge as per normal.

This was the trade off.

 

Old IS at least had you wanting to cast it only when you are ready for a big rumble fight or ressing someone.

Of course with the new duration mods, you can last nearly forever, but that is another thing.

Edited January 12, 2015 by fatpig84

[letir]

Yeah lets make him a super tank, but nerf his other abilities. Like valkyr, make only one ability worth using. Lets have his irons skin not have a hp pool and have a timer instead(I don't know whats a good amount umm 20 seconds max rank sounds fair), move it to his ult so it is 100 power base. his stomp can be his 3rd but instead of knocking up enemies in stasis just do a short stagger on them, his roar will only effect himself, and his first ability will stop at the first enemy hit. Now he is the best at tanking, he invincible like valkyr, but can use his guns.

You aren't good with Valkyr, don't you?

Ripline is useful travel power, Warcry (with high Power Strength and Armor) will turn her into almost invunerable and unstoppable melee machine, Paralyze useful for melee stunning, and Hysteria... yeah.

 

Valkyr is strong melee frame, when she is modded right and have Life Strike.

Edited January 12, 2015 by letir

[anercan]

 

 

 

I actually wouldn't mind this, but if Roar only affects himself I'd prefer to see it buffed to like 100% instead of 50%.  Roar will never be as good at buffing a team as M-prime is, anyway.

actually I have a better idea, instead of a damage buff(not very tanky) lets have it aggro enemies instead.

[fatpig84]

You aren't good with Valkyr, don't you?

Ripline is useful travel power, Warcry (with high Power Strength and Armor) will turn her into almost invunerable and unstoppable melee machine, Paralyze useful for melee stunning, and Hysteria... yeah.

 

Valkyr is strong melee frame, when she is modded right and have Life Strike.

 

Yes she is a strong melee frame, but very shoe horned into one.

Hysteria invulnerability will be removed soon, so she still needs to stand on her own with her other abilities.

Hysteria by itself simply doesn't do enough damage to be competitive.

 

Rip line has nice utility, but it isn't a deal breaker as compared to things like shock or decoy.

Abilities that have cheap CC or offer easy escape due to invulnerability state (like Slash dash, Rhino Charge, tail wind etc) 

 

Paralysis, again this is very very niche.

It has shorter range than most CCs requiring her to be go deeper into the fray than most frames.

It's flipside is it's cheap cast, because you will be spamming it very very often as compared to other forms of CC.

 

 

Only Warcry in my opinion is one of the best skills for her.

The fact that I can double my armor rating and STILL use my guns makes it heaps better than Hysteria.

Making her a very durable run and gun shooter. Yes you can play melee with that too.

 

But that's it. 

Edited January 12, 2015 by fatpig84