Remove Serration And Other Base Damage Mods From The Game And Replace It With A Damage Boost Based On Weapon Level

[VDeorsum]

With serration i think that devs have to remove vitality and redirection too, these mods mandatory too

+1 OP

Edited January 14, 2015 by VDeorsum

[Phoenix86]

+1 made this same thread like 3-4 months ago, i will support yours too

[SIDESTRE4M]

So basically you want builds with an elemental mod instead of Serration.

 

That will change much.

[(PSN)KhaosTILdeath]

 

When did I ever mention conditional damage? The idea is to remove serration as a mod and make it a damage buff innately tied to weapon rank, like Abilities are tied to Warframes. I refer you to the OP. 

 

did you even watch the devstream? it was clearly stated the dev are thinking about adding conditional mods. ie X damage for head shots, stealth kills etc.

[Pandoran_Stallion]

did you even watch the devstream? it was clearly stated the dev are thinking about adding conditional mods. ie X damage for head shots, stealth kills etc.

I watch every devstream, to answer your question.

 

As for your post, it's not relevant in any way to the discussion. We're not discussing conditional damage mods in this topic. We don't care about conditional damage mods in this topic. What we're talking about is the implementation of the system I proposed in the OP, which is removal of serration and making weapon level grant the base damage boost instead. Please stay on topic. All that post would've achieved is mass panic or derailing of the thread.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Cut Serration, you cut a progression bar from your account. People will feel less progression, because a few hours and you've got, what you otherwise would have after weeks, months, depending how much you play.

 

Leveling up weapons will be the same pain as leveling up frames after forma where you can't just use a full ranked ability and instead have to go to the painfull procedure to be helpless at level 1.

 

You know what I would do? Leveling up weapons passively. Carry them with me until they are 30.

Edited January 14, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Pandoran_Stallion]

Cut Serration, you cut a progression bar from your account. People will feel less progression, because a few hours and you've got, what you otherwise would have after weeks, months, depending how much you play.

 

Leveling up weapons will be the same pain as leveling up frames after forma where you can't just use a full ranked ability and instead have to go to the painfull procedure to be helpless at level 1.

If you're going for a progression bar there are plenty of Warframe mods, Warframes, and mastery farming activities that you can invest in. A single mod should not define how far along you are in the game. In terms of forma, it's actually far better until you hit Rank 7(if you've forma'd in a V polarity, with no potato). Before, you would've had 0 damage boost until you could put on the mod, but with this you would have a 36% boost automatically at level 6.

 

With innate serration, you not only have more mod options, but your weapons improve as you play, like warframes do now. Since there are no auras for weapons with such mods, changing to innate doesn't have a huge impact in the sense of forma, except that it prevents placement of a full-on damage build until Rank 30 (which is normally the case anyway).

[SIDESTRE4M]

36%... instead I could have 165% already. I could even get some usage out of the gun at Mimas instead of Appolodorus so I won't get sleepy the first 30 minutes.

 

Everyone here just seem to see: yay, I don't have to rank up Serration.

 

People have had options all along and they don't opt for utility. Why would they opt for utility without Serration?

 

And I still think Serration acts as a progress bar. The other stuff is not worth anything. Ranking up Serration gives you an instant feasible boost and finally maxing it, gets you a feeling that you have achieved something. I mean, there is not much else where you can say that.

 

Today I throw some cores at a mod and it's rank8. When I began playing it was something special. Really.

Edited January 14, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Tyrian3k]

36%... instead I could have 165% already. I could even get some usage out of the gun at Mimas instead of Appolodorus so I won't get sleepy the first 30 minutes.

 

Everyone here just seem to see: yay, I don't have to rank up Serration.

 

People have had options all along and they don't opt for utility. Why would they opt for utility without Serration?

 

And I still think Serration acts as a progress bar. The other stuff is not worth anything. Ranking up Serration gives you an instant feasible boost and finally maxing it, gets you a feeling that you have achieved something. I mean, there is not much else where you can say that.

 

Today I throw some cores at a mod and it's rank8. When I began playing it was something special. Really.

 

You're ignoring the fact that you can already put a different mod on the weapon in the moment that you could put Serration on it.

You're also ignoring that newbies will actually feel more progression without pouring all the credits and cores into Serration since they actually get stronger by leveling up, not having to rely on getting the mod in the first place.

 

And just because you lose those mods it doesn't mean that you suddenly have no rank 10 mods in the game any more that you can rank up and feel "special" about.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Yeah, elemental mods for example... Why didn't I think of that. Totally new build and scaling well with that few percentages...

[Tyrian3k]

Yeah, elemental mods for example... Why didn't I think of that. Totally new build and scaling well with that few percentages...

 

Well, you say you have +36%? Okay, add a 90% elemental mod and you have 136% damage + 0,9*136% elemental damage which is ~258% of the damage of an unmodded gun.

Compare that to 265% damage and you may see that it's about the same.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Then what will it change?

 

You think, when you remove Serration, you will have more variety. This is false.

 

You will set a new standard and every utility mod will still gimp your dps. You change the system without real benefits.

 

And for damage progression tied to levels, I think 30 levels are too much then. People will just exploit more to level up because leveling up will be the one and only thing to do.

 

 I mean, what will it REALLY change? People are treating OP like a messias, so maybe I just don't get it.

Edited January 14, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Tyrian3k]

What will change? A mod that doesn't add customization will be removed from the game.

 

Utility mod balance belongs to another thread.

[SIDESTRE4M]

This utility mod balance won't happen. They either increase DPS more than elementals or won't get equipped.

 

If level 30 = +165%, then we will have even more godlike weapons than before and still no variety.

 

Mark my words.

[Tyrian3k]

Primed mods and the dual-stat elemental mods are proof that DE doesn't mind weapons getting more and more godlike anyways, so what does it matter?

[SIDESTRE4M]

You won't get more variety out of this. You never will.

Edited January 14, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Kitzun]

Against removal:

 

-something else will replace base damage soon enough and we will have the same topic about it in 6 months, perhaps from the same OP;

 

-base damage mods allow customization of base damage like other mods do with other stats, so they have their place;

 

-the problem is not the stat, it's the numbers, serration and hornet strike are too strong compared to other mods, multishot mods are too strong too.

 

Nerf the things until they are not mandatory for every build anymore.

[Tyrian3k]

-base damage mods allow customization of base damage like other mods do with other stats, so they have their place

 

And what does that change apart from bloating numbers? Does it make the weapon more effective in one situation and less in another? No. It's just increased damage that applies every time on every enemy equally. It has no depth to it, no thought involved in it.

[Kitzun]

And what does that change apart from bloating numbers? Does it make the weapon more effective in one situation and less in another? No. It's just increased damage that applies every time on every enemy equally. It has no depth to it, no thought involved in it.

So what, mods affecting fire rate, mag size, reload time, critical chance and other things are doing the same, why not remove them too in this case ?

If it's about a increase in numbers then remove the damage from elemental mods and have them change the base damage element without adding damage, it's the same.

 

I maintain, modding base damage has a place like for any other stat and the problem does not lie here but in the numbers themselves, +165% and +220% are too strong for only one mod, nerf that until it is no better than other mods, then do the same with multishot mods and that's all.

[Tyrian3k]

All other mods are situational and don't always give you the same benefit in every situation imaginable which serration on the other hand does. Already had that argument. Pure damage is as boring as it can get.

[Kitzun]

All other mods are situational and don't always give you the same benefit in every situation imaginable which serration on the other hand does. Already had that argument. Pure damage is as boring as it can get.

No, not all other mods are situational at all, you don't imagine a crit weapon without point strike and vital sense, it's only normal.

All weapons have a base damage, so what, weapons are weapons, they are supposed to do damage.

Let's DE make a pure utility weapon then, and you will be able to say serration is situational too.

And it's not because you find something boring that it is, for that you will need to have everyone think like you and considering the success of the Marelock it's not the case.

[Tyrian3k]

No, not all other mods are situational at all, you don't imagine a crit weapon without point strike and vital sense, it's only normal.

 

Crit mods don't apply their damage on every shot, ergo situational. Also, it's a flaw that comes from DE choosing weapon variety over build variety by making specific builds the only viable ones for specific weapons.

 

All weapons have a base damage, so what, weapons are weapons, they are supposed to do damage.

 

And how does Serration do any good for that if it's mandatory on every weapon. Even if you nerf it to 30% players will still use it.

 

Let's DE make a pure utility weapon then, and you will be able to say serration is situational too.

 

Utility weapon? Good joke, make me a weapon on which Serration is unsuitable but still deals damage.

 

And it's not because you find something boring that it is, for that you will need to have everyone think like you and considering the success of the Marelock it's not the case.

 

Serration doesn't add anything to a build that makes it unique or special, not in any way more effective in one situation but not in another, doesn't have any downsides.

You can remove serration, adjust the health of all enemies to reflect that, remove the mod slot and everyone kills everything the same way as before. The balance of the game stays the exact same.

If you do that for crit mods, crit weapons would be underpowered. If you do that for specific elements, a certain faction becomes harder to kill etc.

It has no real effect outside every number related to damage and health being bigger because of it.

[Edgedemon]

This would be a pretty good idea, especially for crit build rifles and melee weapons.

 

Freeing up that extra mod slot might not mean much for a boltor, but it means a lot to a soma.  Also, melee weapons have terrible scaling in their pressure point mod and I've noticed major damage dropoffs due to melee not having the 165% damage buff, and melee not having the equivalent of a multishot mod.

 

If all weapons gain a 165% damage increase at level 30, shotguns and melee would catch up with rifles, while crit build rifles get an extra mod to play with.

melee can get 200% with the corrupted mod and shotguns have blaze and primed point blank so its acutally way above 200%, this would actually reduce the option of investing those mods and thus reduce build variety instead of adding

[Edgedemon]

Serration doesn't add anything to a build that makes it unique or special, not in any way more effective in one situation but not in another, doesn't have any downsides.

You can remove serration, adjust the health of all enemies to reflect that, remove the mod slot and everyone kills everything the same way as before. The balance of the game stays the exact same.

If you do that for crit mods, crit weapons would be underpowered. If you do that for specific elements, a certain faction becomes harder to kill etc.

It has no real effect outside every number related to damage and health being bigger because of it.

actually that is only true for already leveled weapons, when leveling weapon the point cost is too high and you have to choose wheter you increase the base, add element or utility, since crit multiplier mods spend less you can actully get most out of your current points removing serration even if you could fit it in already, but hey i don't need to tech you how to enjoy the game

[Pandoran_Stallion]

treating OP like a messias, so maybe I just don't get it.

In regards to this, I was just had an idea and didn't expect the conversation to get so huge. I made a suggestion, and honestly, I don't care either way. I have a maxed serration. Sure I think this would make weapon builds a little more dynamic, if only because it takes secondaries down a notch and buffs melee. But I'm just playing devil's advocate, because I think this makes for a good discussion. If I gave the impression of taking that position I sincerely apologize.

 

I admit freely that it may not give more build variety. But if we still hold ourselves to the same standard in terms of DPS (since it's perfectly fine as it is), some players may decide to put quality of life mods. So if you have something to say, as long as it's relevant, feel free to say it.

 

The discussion is what the impact of such a change would be, and that's what I'm trying to spark debate on. Hopefully it draws DE's eyes away from removal of Serration in favor of conditional damage, and makes them consider the fact that they add mods that are essentially required for high-level gameplay. As long as that conversation exists, I'm fine watching idly.