When The Base Damage Mods Are Removed, Don't Forget To Rebalance The Elementals And Multishot Mods

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

DE does think it's viable. They said so in the last devstream. And it's not like you'll have to use your old mods if you don't want to

That would be a mistake. "Serration only" groups would appear and become common, players without it couldn't get into groups, our damage output would be vastly superior to the rest, creating two distinct classes of players--those with Serration and those without. And those without would likely become discouraged soon after starting, realizing the only way to hang with the vets would be to throw hundreds of platinum at them on trade chats to get the mod, and many will quit rather than feel that they're being forced into spending lots of money. I'm sure most people would be happy with Legendary cores and/or other items as replacements (I made a post on this in General Discussion, and most people were fine with some type of compensation). It's not worth the trouble to keep it in the game. Edited January 14, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[Tyrian3k]

This would upset so many people that bought one off Trading -- especially fully ranked ones.

Legendary core.

[Innocent_Flower]

We just got Primed Point Blank, and now base damages are getting removed?

 

wat?

Primed point blank is agreed to be a dumb idea by anyone who's really 'thought about it' (as is ravage and heavy trauma)

 

The ones already in your inventory will stay there. It just won't stop for new players after this change is implemented. Like the arcane helmets. 

Players had few arcane mods, but Players have a lot of damage mods. Trading. plus imbalance. It would never work.

 

This would upset so many people that bought one off Trading -- especially fully ranked ones.

Well they get the refund of cores and credits. The people who buy fully ranked mods ain't exactly the most starved for cash. 

[Acos]

I think it's been covered in this thread, but just for reiteration: It's a gun. It has a fairly obvious primary objective, and most mods that we pick are going to go towards helping better fulfill that objective; kill people. So you could remove serration, nerf elementals, butcher multishot, and at the end of the day (and after a lot of moaning) we are still going to seek to install mods that increase damage. Because it's a gun. 

Grand fathering in Serration and the like as they did with Arcane Helmets is not at all a viable option. Removing serration is absolutely pointless if you still allow 99% of the current playerbase to have it. You've essentially just made the game easier, made Serration even more manditory, and fixed absolutely nothing. If they want to get rid of Serration they can't half-butt it; it has to go completely. Compensate us with cores, absolutely, but it must be removed. 

I would absolutely love it if we had mods that gave us benefits for being more skilled, rather than simply increasing damage. I can think of a few ideas off the top of my head, but I'm sure a more concentrated effort could come up with even more. Naturally these would need to offer greater damage benefits than damage mods or they become pointless. 

-Head Shot Multiplier: Hitting "weak spots" with your fire-arm will do increased damage. 

-Head Shot Speed Trigger: Consecutive Headshots will build up a multiplier that continues to increase damage. 

-Murder Spree: 10 consecutive skills grants your next shot 10x the normal damage, counter resets after 5 seconds

-Cripple: Shooting enemies in the leg knocks them over, pins them down, or otherwise stops them from moving. Shooting them in the arm disarms their weapon. 

-Bullet Time: 10 Consecutive Kills within 5 seconds slows down all enemies by 50% for 5 seconds. 

-​Focus: Hitting the same body part repeatedly will cause increased damage. 

 

Melee: 
Kinetic Energy: (Or just replace Reach, it's useless), Channeled attacks will send a wave of Tenno energy forward, that deals 75% the damage of your weapon (effectively multi-shot for melee weapons). This energy will extend from the weapon, but curve to follow your aiming reticule. 
Forceful Disarm: Channel Attacks will have a 25% chance per strike to alleviate the enemy of their weapon... by chopping it in half. 

Blink: Landing the killing blow with a channeled attack will teleport you to a nearby enemy within 15m. 

Assassinate: Performing a successful finisher attack allows you to enter stealth for 10s, melee attacks gain the 1st hit 4x multiplier. 

Riposte: Channeling while blocking will expend a large amount of energy (25e or so), teleport you behind your assailant (whether he's using a gun or whatever), and allow you to perform a finisher upon him. 

Things like that. Things that actually change gameplay and allow us to do more with our weapons. 

Edited January 14, 2015 by Acos

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I think it's been covered in this thread, but just for reiteration: It's a gun. It has a fairly obvious primary objective, and most mods that we pick are going to go towards helping better fulfill that objective; kill people. So you could remove serration, nerf elementals, butcher multishot, and at the end of the day (and after a lot of moaning) we are still going to seek to install mods that increase damage. Because it's a gun. 

Grand fathering in Serration and the like as they did with Arcane Helmets is not at all a viable option. Removing serration is absolutely pointless if you still allow 99% of the current playerbase to have it. You've essentially just made the game easier, made Serration even more manditory, and fixed absolutely nothing. If they want to get rid of Serration they can't half-butt it; it has to go completely. Compensate us with cores, absolutely, but it must be removed. 

I would absolutely love it if we had mods that gave us benefits for being more skilled, rather than simply increasing damage. I can think of a few ideas off the top of my head, but I'm sure a more concentrated effort could come up with even more. Naturally these would need to offer greater damage benefits than damage mods or they become pointless. 

-Head Shot Multiplier: Hitting "weak spots" with your fire-arm will do increased damage. 

-Head Shot Speed Trigger: Consecutive Headshots will build up a multiplier that continues to increase damage. 

-Murder Spree: 10 consecutive skills grants your next shot 10x the normal damage, counter resets after 5 seconds

-Cripple: Shooting enemies in the leg knocks them over, pins them down, or otherwise stops them from moving. Shooting them in the arm disarms their weapon. 

-Bullet Time: 10 Consecutive Kills within 5 seconds slows down all enemies by 50% for 5 seconds. 

-​Focus: Hitting the same body part repeatedly will cause increased damage. 

 

Melee: 

Kinetic Energy: (Or just replace Reach, it's useless), Channeled attacks will send a wave of Tenno energy forward, that deals 75% the damage of your weapon (effectively multi-shot for melee weapons). This energy will extend from the weapon, but curve to follow your aiming reticule. 

Forceful Disarm: Channel Attacks will have a 25% chance per strike to alleviate the enemy of their weapon... by chopping it in half. 

Blink: Landing the killing blow with a channeled attack will teleport you to a nearby enemy within 15m. 

Assassinate: Performing a successful finisher attack allows you to enter stealth for 10s, melee attacks gain the 1st hit 4x multiplier. 

Riposte: Channeling while blocking will expend a large amount of energy (25e or so), teleport you behind your assailant (whether he's using a gun or whatever), and allow you to perform a finisher upon him. 

Things like that. Things that actually change gameplay and allow us to do more with our weapons.

I like all of your suggestions for mods. However, there needs to be a limit to the number of mods of that type we can put on, or people will be stacking ridiculous amounts of damage through using many of them.

[ClockworkSpectre]

"Although Serration is a great example of a Mod with too much strength, there's still no benefit to simply removing it. To do so would disrupt the balance of Tenno damage to favor the opposition, and we recognize that some higher level areas of Warframe would be inaccessible without the advantage Serration brings."

 

People seem to be ignoring this, its from the Devstream 44 overview.  DE seems to be saying they won't be removing mods like serration, they are going to do something, but not removing base damage mods.  People are just assuming what they want based on their opinions even though DE is not saying what they are claiming them to have said.  I honestly don't care what DE does with the mods as long as they do it well.  But it does bother me that people are tossing around their speculations like they are fact. 

Edited January 14, 2015 by ClockworkSpectre

[AMDMAD]

Ah PS4 it explains the post and the attitude. Maybe you are unaible to level them up yourself thus being jealous for other having it and instead working to get it you come here to find 'excuses " for them to be removed because you are unable to get them . Which means if other having fun with something that you CANT it means it must be removed .Annoying ppl  , all those mods WILL stay because that is how the way of warframe works atm . IF they get removed the WHOLE game must be remaked so i dont see it happening soon . It may happen but not now . Besides how all the ppl that have used formas on all weapons to get teh maximum damage potential gonan get a refund? and if you say " it is de they can change everything because they can" a huge HUGE amount of players will be leave and rage quit which is a no move from DE . But hey at least you will happy right? Because everything is roating around you and your perfect little world

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Ah PS4 it explains the post and the attitude. Maybe you are unaible to level them up yourself thus being jealous for other having it and instead working to get it you come here to find 'excuses " for them to be removed because you are unable to get them . Which means if other having fun with something that you CANT it means it must be removed .Annoying ppl  , all those mods WILL stay because that is how the way of warframe works atm . IF they get removed the WHOLE game must be remaked so i dont see it happening soon . It may happen but not now . Besides how all the ppl that have used formas on all weapons to get teh maximum damage potential gonan get a refund? and if you say " it is de they can change everything because they can" a huge HUGE amount of players will be leave and rage quit which is a no move from DE . But hey at least you will happy right? Because everything is roating around you and your perfect little world

I don't know what you're referencing or talking about in regards to me not being able to level them up and being jealous and every other attack you made up without understanding my post. If you're talking about the last post I made:

That would be a mistake. "Serration only" groups would appear and become common, players without it couldn't get into groups, our damage output would be vastly superior to the rest, creating two distinct classes of players--those with Serration and those without. And those without would likely become discouraged soon after starting, realizing the only way to hang with the vets would be to throw hundreds of platinum at them on trade chats to get the mod, and many will quit rather than feel that they're being forced into spending lots of money. I'm sure most people would be happy with Legendary cores and/or other items as replacements (I made a post on this in General Discussion, and most people were fine with some type of compensation). It's not worth the trouble to keep it in the game.

you didn't understand any of it. I would be in the group with you and everyone with Serration, and only newer players wouldn't, which would be bad for them or us or both.

I'm not finding excuses. I bet I can guess every one of your rifle builds: Serration, Split Chamber, three elements (guaranteed), and then either more elements, Bane mods, critical mods, or ammo mutations. You know why? Because those are the only viable builds. It's false choice. If we remove the guaranteed damage mods and turn them into something with more substance there will be more choices. DE said in the Devstream they're considering Serration's removal, and that the game would be balanced around that change. It wouldn't be likely to happen now, but there's a good chance it will happen at some point.

People can be given a Legendary Forma with their cores. And I promise you I wouldn't be the only one happy.

[ThePresident777]

Numbers but no math, it's arbitrary.

[XAN3MK]

Ah PS4 it explains the post and the attitude. Maybe you are unaible to level them up yourself thus being jealous for other having it and instead working to get it you come here to find 'excuses " for them to be removed because you are unable to get them . Which means if other having fun with something that you CANT it means it must be removed .Annoying ppl  , all those mods WILL stay because that is how the way of warframe works atm . IF they get removed the WHOLE game must be remaked so i dont see it happening soon . It may happen but not now . Besides how all the ppl that have used formas on all weapons to get teh maximum damage potential gonan get a refund? and if you say " it is de they can change everything because they can" a huge HUGE amount of players will be leave and rage quit which is a no move from DE . But hey at least you will happy right? Because everything is roating around you and your perfect little world

 

Good, let them go, those are exactly the type of people who you don't want around in your game (outside of business, obviously) and providing input.

 

It seems that a majority of the people who are agaisnt balance changes and restructuring are people who have no longterm MMO exp of any description. Leaving detrimental systems in the game just to not piss the vocal minority off is the worst thing you can do to your game. The balance in an MMO shifts from patch to patch and Warframe should be no different in this regard.

 

That being said, the removal of Serration and/or damage mods won't solve anything, the problem is far larger than this and it ranges from 3/4 of the weapon arsenal being absolute tosh to how the damage and the stat systems work (and the lack of variety in that regard)

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Good, let them go, those are exactly the type of people who you don't want around in your game (outside of business, obviously) and providing input.

 

It seems that a majority of the people who are agaisnt balance changes and restructuring are people who have no longterm MMO exp of any description. Leaving detrimental systems in the game just to not &!$$ the vocal minority off is the worst thing you can do to your game. The balance in an MMO shifts from patch to patch and Warframe should be no different in this regard.

 

That being said, the removal of Serration and/or damage mods won't solve anything, the problem is far larger than this and it ranges from 3/4 of the weapon arsenal being absolute tosh to how the damage and the stat systems work (and the lack of variety in that regard)

I think if you put my two threads together they make a more satisfactory solution. A problem with taking this suggestion by itself (unless I'm misunderstanding your post) was that without the damage based multishot and elemental mods, there wouldn't be enough worthwhile ones to fill the void. The problem with taking that thread by itself is that those mods still cannot compete with the damage based mods. But doing both would fix both in my opinion.

[XAN3MK]

I think if you put my two threads together they make a more satisfactory solution. A problem with taking this suggestion by itself (unless I'm misunderstanding your post) was that without the damage based multishot and elemental mods, there wouldn't be enough worthwhile ones to fill the void. The problem with taking that thread by itself is that those mods still cannot compete with the damage based mods. But doing both would fix both in my opinion.

 

Exactly, for the most part. Removing of the extra or scalable damage doesn't fix the inherent issue that is the luckluster stat system of Warframe. DE tried to remedy that with the elemental combos, but the end result was "nothing has changed". If anything, it is made worse by the fact that the best status mods are the event rainbow mods which basically devours the potential for diversity in the status builds by making them the equivalent of rainbow builds.

 

Even if the pure damage mods (Serration/Hornet Strike/Point Blank/etc) are removed, the current status won't change since we'll still only have the choice between Rainbow/status builds or Crit builds (Multishot is very one dimensional and lacks variety and in its current form it is mandatory in every build)

 

The other thing is that even if we *repair* and modify the luckluster mods, they are still gonna remain luckluster due to them only being bandaid for luckluster weapon design. For example, why bother fixing the ammo economy/efficiency of the Supra when you can just load up Boltor Prime with double rainbows and go to town. Some will bring the argument of preference, but you can't balance your game around preference and ignore the idea of efficiency and relevance.

 

To put it simple, for any real build diversity, as far as weapons go, a direct gain of % damage should go the way of the dodo, elemental mods need to be rebalanced and elemental mechanics changed AND on top of everything extra stats and stat mechanics should be introduced while the weapon design takes them and their effectivnes into consideration, with enemies and encounters that are efficiently affected by them and being able to answer/counter them.

 

tl;dr This is a huge gemplay (re)design black hole.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Exactly, for the most part. Removing of the extra or scalable damage doesn't fix the inherent issue that is the luckluster stat system of Warframe. DE tried to remedy that with the elemental combos, but the end result was "nothing has changed". If anything, it is made worse by the fact that the best status mods are the event rainbow mods which basically devours the potential for diversity in the status builds by making them the equivalent of rainbow builds.

 

Even if the pure damage mods (Serration/Hornet Strike/Point Blank/etc) are removed, the current status won't change since we'll still only have the choice between Rainbow/status builds or Crit builds (Multishot is very one dimensional and lacks variety and in its current form it is mandatory in every build)

 

The other thing is that even if we *repair* and modify the luckluster mods, they are still gonna remain luckluster due to them only being bandaid for luckluster weapon design. For example, why bother fixing the ammo economy/efficiency of the Supra when you can just load up Boltor Prime with double rainbows and go to town. Some will bring the argument of preference, but you can't balance your game around preference and ignore the idea of efficiency and relevance.

 

To put it simple, for any real build diversity, as far as weapons go, a direct gain of % damage should go the way of the dodo, elemental mods need to be rebalanced and elemental mechanics changed AND on top of everything extra stats and stat mechanics should be introduced while the weapon design takes them and their effectivnes into consideration, with enemies and encounters that are efficiently affected by them and being able to answer/counter them.

 

tl;dr This is a huge gemplay (re)design black hole.

It would be very time consuming to implement, but the game would be much better for it. So I'll hold onto hope.