When The Base Damage Mods Are Removed, Don't Forget To Rebalance The Elementals And Multishot Mods

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Serration/Pressure Point/Hornet Strike/Point Blank are likely going to be removed at some point, likely before year's end. The intention is to remove false choice and promote more build variety. DE will be balancing enemies and scaling and other systems to prepare for this change.

However, on it's own it won't solve much, and all that balancing will go for nothing. Instead, the new goal will be to stack elemental and multishot damage mods. Multishot-Every event element-every normal element will become the norm, because otherwise players would deny themselves extra damage.

For this reason, they need to be changed. Multishot would, in my mind, be an expensive version of a combined critical/status mod--the bullet would become two that do half damage, but each with it's own chance to crit or status. Many people will use it still, but on a non-crit or non-status build it won't be necessary at all.

Elemental mods would convert a percentage (let's say 25-30% max, with 3 or so ranks) of the base damage to that element. Two elements would be the max a build could take, meaning pure elemental weapons would have an advantage, and also that rainbow builds would finally, truly die.

Physical damage mods would exist with the boosts they have now (the event ones would be changed to have 30% or so boosts with status increases). This would be a moderate DPS boost at most, and for many weapons reload speed increases or magazine size increases or a number of other options would be more attractive. Because of the way physical damage is calculated, it would rarely be more than a 15-20% boost on any weapon. And it would be calculated after elementals, so adding elementals would decrease the damage boost physical mods would offer.

The reason why it should happen with the base mod changes are so these things can be factored into the balance changes (and yes, the game would be balanced with these changes in mind--the enemies would have the same relative strength, just we would have more variety).

Edited January 14, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[oinkah]

And bane mods.

And corrupted damage mods.

There are many candidates for Serration slot.

Also, event physical mods and primed heavy trauma are no laughing matter. They outdo elementals in some cases.

Edited January 14, 2015 by oinkah

[GunDownGrace]

cmon guys,lets help DE by suggesting specific mod things to replace the dmg mods

 

how about headshot uppers?(not sure how that would work)

 

or "stun rounds",75% chance to not alarm a target if struck

[AlphaHorseman]

Where in the Nine Planets of the Origin System are you getting this information from?

[Dromeos-Prime]

And after those get "balanced" people will find the next best mods to use, then those get "balanced" too. Till in the end we are shooting foam bullets at armored enemies.

 

Why would people keep trying to find the best? because it's efficient and effective, nothing can change human nature.

[Latiac]

I don't think any base damage mods would be removed as such. Lots of the weapons are built around them in order to be effective past 40mins+ Survival and other high tier missions...

Edited January 14, 2015 by Latiac

[Stefe]

This would upset so many people that bought one off Trading -- especially fully ranked ones.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Stefe

[Psiloc1n]

Why not just remove and nerf every mod

OP the fun hater

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

And after those get "balanced" people will find the next best mods to use, then those get "balanced" too. Till in the end we are shooting foam bullets at armored enemies.

 

Why would people keep trying to find the best? because it's efficient and effective, nothing can change human nature.

Plenty of games offer customization systems that don't have "necessary" items. Warframe isn't one of them, because as long as we can get 50 and 60 and 120 and 165% damage boosts of course nothing else could trump them.

Where in the Nine Planets of the Origin System are you getting this information from?

I thought I'd removed the "almost certainly" (because that's too assertive for something that is in very early stages at best), but it seems increasingly likely based on the last Devstream that Serration and the like won't survive the year.

I don't think any base damage mods would be removed as such. Lots of the weapons are built around them in order to be effective past 40mins+ Survival and other high tier missions...

Once again, the weapons would be rebalanced around their removal, which is what will happen with the removal of the base damage mods anyway. Might as well balance for both at once.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Why not just remove and nerf every mod

OP the fun hater

The damage output wouldn't change. I just want to be able to use different mods without being worthless to my team. There's no value to basic +damage mods. You go further, but the enemies get stronger, and you end up with less real choice at high levels anyway.

[zoboso]

Why not just remove and nerf every mod

 

That would be a great idea, the problem is to determine what to replace the old mods with; I'm thinking fusion cores.

[Dromeos-Prime]

Plenty of games offer customization systems that don't have "necessary" items. Warframe isn't one of them, because as long as we can get 50 and 60 and 120 and 165% damage boosts of course nothing else could trump them.

This is exactly what I mean! Let's say the damage mods get removed (including the elementals &multishot)  peoples will just switch over from damage to RoF, Reload & magazine/ammo mod. Because let's be honest there will always be better options than the rest.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

cmon guys,lets help DE by suggesting specific mod things to replace the dmg mods

 

how about headshot uppers?(not sure how that would work)

 

or "stun rounds",75% chance to not alarm a target if struck

I'm all up for that, but that's not really the purpose of this thread. You should start one on that subject if you like.

[DaftMeat]

We just got Primed Point Blank, and now base damages are getting removed?

 

wat?

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

This is exactly what I mean! Let's say the damage mods get removed (including the elementals &multishot)  peoples will just switch over from damage to RoF, Reload & magazine/ammo mod. Because let's be honest there will always be better options than the rest.

I'm not asking for the removal of elementals and multishot. I'm asking for a change to their usage. Would you rather have an elemental mod or a reload one? A magazine mod or a status boost (once those are finally rebalanced)? An accuracy mod or a base damage mod? A high critical chance mod or a multishot mod that doesn't boost that crit chance as much, but increases the status chance? There are lots of different options in a system where you don't need to use them all to boost damage. But in the current system, damage mods are the only real options.

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

The ones already in your inventory will stay there. It just won't stop for new players after this change is implemented. Like the arcane helmets. 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

The ones already in your inventory will stay there. It just won't stop for new players after this change is implemented. Like the arcane helmets.

It's simply not viable, even if at this stage DE thinks it can be pulled off. Think about it: we'll do 165% more damage than everyone else. Either we'd play an incredibly boring game, balanced for people without Serration and the like, where we killed everything without trying, or, new players would be hopeless by higher levels balanced for a game with Serration. Edited January 14, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[AlphaHorseman]

Ah so you're assuming, I get it.

[Dromeos-Prime]

I'm not asking for the removal of elementals and multishot. I'm asking for a change to their usage. Would you rather have an elemental mod or a reload one? A magazine mod or a status boost (once those are finally rebalanced)? An accuracy mod or a base damage mod? A high critical chance mod or a multishot mod that doesn't boost that crit chance as much, but increases the status chance? There are lots of different options in a system where you don't need to use them all to boost damage. But in the current system, damage mods are the only real options.

That's because no matter what change DE does, humans will do the easiest/most effective thing to do.

 

For example, what's more effective?:

 

Weakening the enemy VS Killing the enemy

 

Having a CHANCE to deal more damage VS Guaranteed damage 

 

Reloading faster to get back to fighting VS Killing them so you can reload in peace

 

Dealing damage faster VS Dealing more damage a bit slower

 

Sustained damage VS Burst damage

 

Killing in a 100 shots VS Killing with one shot

 

People choose damage because it's more reliable.

Edited January 14, 2015 by reptillicus

[xRufus7x]

Where in the Nine Planets of the Origin System are you getting this information from?

The last devstream, but these individuals are getting ahead of themselves. They never said serration was going to be removed, just that they were considering alternatives.

[Buzkyl]

This would upset so many people that bought one off Trading -- especially fully ranked ones.

 

 

And? Everything is subjecte to change, Trade chat revolves around DEnot the other way around

 

As to the reasoning "It's not going to function past x minutes in T4S"

 

 

We cannot balance towards endless content. There's a reason it's endless, it's a measure of endurance,it's just that this is the one way to measure the capability of weapons at this point in time.

 

[ClockworkSpectre]

I thought I'd removed the "almost certainly" (because that's too assertive for something that is in very early stages at best), but it seems increasingly likely based on the last Devstream that Serration and the like won't survive the year.

 

You must have been watching a different devstream.  I didn't see anything in the last one that implied they would remove base damage mods, far from it.  From what I got from that devstream is that they will balance the mods that have fallen behind, or are needlessly less effective for no reason, like the melee elemental mods having such different values. 

 

I honestly can't understand why people have such a problem with mods that everyone uses.  Just because everyone uses it doesn't mean its bad.  Also no matter what DE does, there are always going to be builds that are more effective than others and the majority of people will go with that. 

 

Though I wouldn't mind seeing alternate versions of mods like serration, that are dual stat.  Say something that adds base damage + something else, and the base damage would be less than serration, but serration would still be in the game as is. 

Edited January 14, 2015 by ClockworkSpectre

[Verouzer]

DE didn't say they'd be removing base damage mods completely. Check out the devstream 44 overview.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

That's because no matter what change DE does, humans will do the easiest/most effective thing to do.

For example, what's more effective?:

Weakening the enemy VS Killing the enemy

Corrosive/Viral/Cold Builds, Nyx, Vauban, Loki... actually many things are weakening instead of killing.

Having a CHANCE to deal more damage VS Guaranteed damage

Because no one uses critical weapons right?

Reloading faster to get back to fighting VS Killing them so you can reload in peace

That's why everyone loves the high damage Sobek and Tigris over the large magazine weapons...

Dealing damage faster VS Dealing more damage a bit slower

Speed Trigger on bows?

Sustained damage VS Burst damage

Not sure where you're going with this honestly.

Killing in a 100 shots VS Killing with one shot

Soma vs. Paris/Dread? Pretty even.

Even now, there are a few non damage mods that are very viable, as your own examples showed. Imagine if everything was a non damage mod? Then it would be stuff like "reload faster VS shoot faster VS incapacitate them more consistently."

Edited January 14, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

It's simply not viable, even if at this stage DE thinks it can be pulled off. Think about it: we'll do 165% more damage than everyone else. Either we'd play an incredibly boring game, balanced for people without Serration and the like, where we killed everything without trying, or, new players would be hopeless by higher levels balanced for a game with Serration.

DE does think it's viable. They said so in the last devstream. And it's not like you'll have to use your old mods if you don't want to