Why 'too Much Damage' Is The Ultimate Bane Of Warframe

[Skepsis]

lol Wut?

PVP was only introduced because people whined for it.

 

Warframe is a PvE Game, Should focus on fixing the broken things, like the gammacore giving too much energy back, and buff some of the really terrible weapons to not be so terrible.

 

Conclave is meaningless, not fun, and a waste of resources. lol.

 

#gameisabeta

[Feallike]

PVP was only introduced because people whined for it.

 

Warframe is a PvE Game, Should focus on fixing the broken things, like the gammacore giving too much energy back, and buff some of the really terrible weapons to not be so terrible.

 

Conclave is meaningless, not fun, and a waste of resources. lol.

 

#gameisabeta

 

Yaa sooo the millions of players who like PVP should not spend their money on this game for PVP because ya that is soooo terrible..

 

 

PVP = Money

 

PVE = Less money

 

 

Now you understand why the DE added PVP. :D

[Hypernaut1]

i just think 90% dmg elemental mods  are ridiculous. I shouldnt have to count on elemental mods for dmg. Elements should be about the effect, not damage.

 

I should be able to use a gun with 1 element or none and not feel like im missing out on +90% dmg.

[Mizar0011]

Are you uncomfortable with feedback in a feedback forum?

It's not me, it's you. All the 'max power' nuts wanting to be all-powerful at the expense of gameplay and most other players. If you want a power-trip; Can't you just play the game on easy? Maybe ask for an easy mode for harder tilesets? Don't try to delay progression for The entire game just because you want power.

And all the no power nuts are ruining it for the rest of them. You do realize there are two sides here again. Play the game and enjoy it and stop complaining because that's all you're doing. Not offering a real real solution. Remove serration and multi shot mods. OK rebalance enemies for that. Now remove speed trigger because it's too op. OK rebalance enemies. Yours is a way into nothingness. The point of modifying things is to make them BETTER. After removing and rebalancing ad infinitum you are left with nothing. Suggest things to be added or buffed or nerfed but don't suggest removal (BTW not all guns and weapons are equal... This is real life. Would you suggest the navy remove its tomahawk missiles because they're too op compared to other countries?) A 9mm compared to a 1911 one has bigger clip one has better everything else. It's the way the world works. Things aren't equal. Try to improve and suggest instead of just make everything the same. Enjoy running missions on mercury. Someone else enjoys long t4s. And without having more and more damage... What is going to happen to the RNG pools that will get super saturated once no one can get past 20 round t4d and they keep adding things. Once again. Simply enjoy it and trust the people who made this great game.

The feeling I get from you is the participation achievement feeling. Look everyone should get the same thing because they showed up. Also notice that I have never said which side I'm on. I simply state that complaining is annoying and stupid and your way leads to the game destruction.

BTW XCOM is pretty much the hardest tactical shooting type game I've ever played and I love it. This game is a hack and slash. You versus hordes of enemies. Find a tactical shoter and play that if you don't like hack and slash.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Mizar0011

[Innocent_Flower]

quote

Speed trigger has a drawback. 

 

Now, I don't have a problem with someone having a significantly better weapon than another player... but the 'significant' in this game is is on the side bad side of absurd. 

 

Generaly, if you complain about something not being something, one could assume the suggestion would be to 'make it so'

[Xpoorny]

nightmare survival....problem solved...

all this talk about balancing...

if u really want stuff balanced...sell ur frame...get a new1 dont potatoe or forma..you got ur balance...another 1solved

no1 is waiting for more balancing like explained in other replys

people like powertrips...and if they dont then they stay away from ult frames or play with less cc

also...new players already have troubble enough

i seen many quit whitin the first month or sooner just becus they lack skills / interest to get any skills

no sense in making it wurse

[Innocent_Flower]

nightmare survival....problem solved...

all this talk about balancing...

if u really want stuff balanced...sell ur frame...get a new1 dont potatoe or forma..you got ur balance...another 1solved

no1 is waiting for more balancing like explained in other replys

people like powertrips...and if they dont then they stay away from ult frames or play with less cc

also...new players already have troubble enough

i seen many quit whitin the first month or sooner just becus they lack skills / interest to get any skills

no sense in making it wurse

I don't know who you are, but know this; I will find you, and i will love you. 

[turbinea]

I agree with argument that serration and Co. ruin the game, options wise.

 

Being supreme, godlike warrior is not only about being strongest. That way of thinking is for people with very limited mental horizons.

 

But still, if someone wants to feel like angry god punishing puny mortals, there is section for that. It is called Mercury.

If someone wants real challenge, there should be section for it as well. Pluto or T4.

For anything between, there should be (if you ignore idiotic layout of star map) anything between.

But it's not. Anything bellow T4 feels like Mercury from the moment you slap Serration and CO. on your gun.

 

It limits sense of progression, challenge, options for various builds.

 

You don't need to check other games to see better or worse examples. Just look at 'frame modding screen. There you have 'Intensify' which provide 30% boost to your damage output. I use it quite often, but i also choose something else instead in some configs. Why? Because sometimes utility (from point of view Damage vs. everything else) like Redirection makes more sense. AND you have options to choose between straight up damage and other aspects of the frame. Yes, you have more options to for Damage mods, but those come with drawbacks so it is far from being sure thing.

What options these 4 most damage increasing mods give you? Don't install them and be stupid. Yay!

 

 

My suggestion is to remove HC and  limit/nerf Serration, Shred, Multishot to lower levels and make them Stance mods for primary weapons.

That would naturally require changing enemy's stats. There is also idea (mentioned in latest devstream, i think) about conditional damage bonuses, where head shot would provide additional bonus, not only increased damage. Sure, people would still find a way to make most damage efficient builds, but it would one of the options, not mandatory thing. You could survive in higher level missions with low level gear if you know how to trigger conditional damage. Sure, that would require skill, not only standing with 4formaed BoltorP and wiping entire room.

 

And that is what more advanced players are asking for. Challenging game that is easy to learn and hard to master.

[Mizar0011]

Speed trigger has a drawback. 

 

Now, I don't have a problem with someone having a significantly better weapon than another player... but the 'significant' in this game is is on the side bad side of absurd. 

 

Generaly, if you complain about something not being something, one could assume the suggestion would be to 'make it so'

What would speed triggers drawback be? Emptying your clip faster? Primed fast hands...problem solved. In any case. I feel that your case could be fairly eloquently stated that we need to remove pressure point too, and that primary and secondary weapons should be scrapped, because at any time on any planet including pluto we can wipe out hordes of enemies with simply a melee weapon. Would that satisfy you? Primarys and secondarys gone as well as pressure point? We would still be OP however. considering that you throw on marathon, rush, maglev, quick rest and primed flow, and then channel into your melee weapon and block everytime you see an enemy. So instead lets remove the ability to channel and the channeling mods. but stances give boosts to damage too. so remove those. OK so now, we're not OP. We cant run T4's anymore and T3's would be sertiously hard, but now its interesting right? We're balanced. except....

 

The Sentients had won. They had turned our weapons, our technology, against us. The more advanced we became, the greater our losses. The war was over unless we found a new way. In our desperation we turned to the Void. The blinding night, the hellspace where our science and reason failed.

 

We took the twisted few that had returned from that place. We built a frame around them, a conduit of their affliction. Gave them the weapons of the old ways. Gun and blade. A new warrior, a new code was born. These rejects, these Tenno, became our saviors. Warrior-Gods cast in steel and fury striking our enemies in a way they could never comprehend.

 

Excalibur was the first.

 

- Orokin 'Warframe' Archives (Excalibur codex entry)

 

Warrior-Gods. We're supposed to be OP compared to the enemies. Hell the game is set up in the fact that we can mow down thousands of the enemies, but we are few and they are many. -_- If you want a challenge remove the mods from your own weapons and warframes. If you cant then youre like the player who says i hate cheat codes in games, and then uses cheat codes. If you want to destroy hordes of enemies without having to take cover (and seeing as they want "fast-paced, visceral action" thats NOT the way this game was intended to be played) then put them on. I feel like you would benefit from playing Mass Effect (another great game) because it sounds like thats what youre looking for, a fully balanced game from beginning to end. Which will and can never happen in anything MMO.

 

The Sentients we're a race that could turn the Orokin technology and weapons against them. A race so advanced that humanity bowed before it and it ruled them etc etc etc. super powerful race, against a race that was destroying them. And then the Tenno killed them off...both of them. But clone human trash is supposed to be a challenge for us? The challenge should be the orokin/sentient remnants. And right now there are no sentient remnants in the game and the Orokin remnants are tower missions. And IMO T4 missions, and of all the missions. The way i see survival and defense is, we need this thing, the neural sentry knows we want it and would rather destroy it than let us have it, keep them at bay until we can get it. Or the neural sentry knows youre here and is trying to destroy you before you ransack this place. In either case, as you wipe what the neural sentry throws at you, it throws harder and harder things. trying to get rid of you. Hence the progression. Dont nuke when you can send ground troops in first, you escalate to your best weapons, you dont start with them. In the case of Tenno, always being the aggressors, we bring in our best equipment....for our ground troops.

[turbinea]

You don't need to be strongest to be god-like warrior, there are more aspects to fight, not just strength/power. There is reason why book 'Art of war' is not about buying Gym ticket.

[Mizar0011]

Have you read the art of war? Because I have. Attack where the enemy isn't. The best battle is the one not fought etc. It's rules for basic engagements.

Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.

You actually go against sun tzu's teachings when you say remove these mods

Edited January 16, 2015 by Mizar0011

[Aspari]

Have you read the art of war? Because I have. Attack where the enemy isn't. The best battle is the one not fought etc. It's rules for basic engagements.

Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.

You actually go against sun tzu's teachings when you say remove these mods

I don't really think Sun Tzu's teachings should be accepted as absolute truth. I also don't think it really applies to Warframe considering this game is arcadey. 

 

Also, lore-wise people may have completely forgotten about The Art of War.

[Mizar0011]

There is no instance of a nation benefitting from prolonged warfare.

What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease.

Then why did you. Not I. Bring it up as a point?

[turbinea]

perhaps i should elaborate on what i meant by mentioning Art of war. What i meant was/is that in fight, strength is not everything.

There are also other factors to consider. Not in WF, because most of the slots are occupied by mandatory mods that increase damage output and nothing else.

Edited January 17, 2015 by turbinea

[Innocent_Flower]

What would speed triggers drawback be? Emptying your clip faster? Primed fast hands...problem solved. In any case. I feel that your case could be fairly eloquently stated that we need to remove pressure point too, and that primary and secondary weapons should be scrapped, because at any time on any planet including pluto we can wipe out hordes of enemies with simply a melee weapon. Would that satisfy you? Primarys and secondarys gone as well as pressure point? We would still be OP however. considering that you throw on marathon, rush, maglev, quick rest and primed flow, and then channel into your melee weapon and block everytime you see an enemy. So instead lets remove the ability to channel and the channeling mods. but stances give boosts to damage too. so remove those. OK so now, we're not OP. We cant run T4's anymore and T3's would be sertiously hard, but now its interesting right? We're balanced. except....

Well, firstly ammo consumption. I don't think that can be fixed with just 'reload faster' 

PS: I like the way you've cited primed fast hands rather than the standard variant. 

 

Learn to argue though. Gross levels of hyperbole do very well to mark you as unreasonable. 

[Mizar0011]

And your lack of response except to say ammo consumption (which is a problem on all weapons once you remove the damage mods because. ...it takes more bullets to kill things. wow. What a concept. ) and primed fast hands is part of the game now. In which case it is the most viable thing. Unless you advocate removing that too. See point about stripping everything and leaving this game with nothing in it.

And please elaborate on your most profound argument method that seems to revolve around. I want it gone because it doesn't fit my play style. ...and. ...reasons. Edited: oh and attempting to "discredit" the opposition without actually saying anything useful or validating yourself. And my use of hyperbole is meant to demonstrate the weakness of your point and how your point will "also" be the ultimate bane of warframe.

Turbinea

You are right, strength is not everything. Take ninjutsu itself. Using the strength and weight of the opponent against them. However in a game based solely on. Kill things. And the method of killing things is. Do as much damage as you can. damage is everything. And damage in this case equates to strength.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Mizar0011

[TwiceDead]

And your lack of response except to say ammo consumption (which is a problem on all weapons once you remove the damage mods because. ...it takes more bullets to kill things. wow. What a concept. ) and primed fast hands is part of the game now. In which case it is the most viable thing. Unless you advocate removing that too. See point about stripping everything and leaving this game with nothing in it.

And please elaborate on your most profound argument method that seems to revolve around. I want it gone because it doesn't fit my play style. ...and. ...reasons.

Turbinea

You are right, strength is not everything. Take ninjutsu itself. Using the strength and weight of the opponent against them. However in a game based solely on. Kill things. And the method of killing things is. Do as much damage as you can. damage is everything. And damage in this case equates to strength.

Ammo consumption is a valid draw-back and is practiced in pretty much every shooter on the market. 

 

You trade power for the ability to spew bullets faster.

 

Compare a sniper-rifle to an SMG. The obviously more powerful weapon is the Sniper-Rifle, but traditionally Snipers have a lower fire-rate which means if they miss, they will be left open to attack without being capable of defending themselves properly.

 

SMG's don't have that problem since they can lay down a constant onslaught of bullets, but they need more bullets to bring down a target than a sniper-rifle, which means they might run out before they kill all the targets, since more bullets are required to take a target down. 

 

In-game you can witness this if you use Twin Vipers on round, and then switch to the LEX the next. You will quickly notice that your ammo pool will be strained with the Twin Vipers, and it takes more than one bullet to kill your targets, while with the LEX you will never be struggling for ammo, and most of your targets will die in one shot.

 

 If two players were to empty their clips simultaneously, the Vipers will run out of ammo a lot faster than the LEX, which makes LEX the obvious weapon to bring in a long-term battle, because when you are out of ammo, you no longer have bite, all you can do is bark. 

[ENIAK_Prime]

Ok, let's make this a bit more clear here:

 

* Problem; There is no room for those that actually like to mod for utility, since damage mods are the superior mods (unless you wanna stick to lower levels, but that's too restrictive). Furthermore, people's reactions are a problem, because we all have different opinions. Some people would like to have more option to mod for more utility. Others prefer powertrips and simply want to have fun blasting enemies away. The powertrippers are probably the ones mainly enjoying this game, as it is more catered towards that niche.

 

* Solution 1 - Remove the most "boring" mods of those, such as Serration and similar.

* Consequences of #1 - Takes some time to rebalance the progressions, people "need" to be compensated for preventing the mass raging and the powertrip people would probably quit the game no matter what (bad for DE). Not a good solution at all.

 

* Solution 2 - Tone down the "boring" mods, and buff all utility.

* Consequences of #2 - This is really difficult to balance, takes a lot of time and effort for DE and it still might not solve the issues at hand anyway. Damage might still be superior. And it still might make the powertrippers quit. And the utility-lovers would probably still not be too happy, because they STILL have to make choices of damage vs utility.

 

* Solution 3 - Make dedicated (4?) slots purely for utility, and leave the "boring" mods more or less as they are now, to be used in the 8 slots we have currently.

* Consequences of #3 - Powertrippers can still trip, modding purely for damage AND they can also further "powertrip" in optimizing their utility. Utility-lovers can mod for utility however they want, without interfering with modding for damage. They can have their variety AND still be viable in terms of damage. Problem is that this requires a whole bunch work on DE's end.

 

 

So, in the situation we are in right now, I feel the only viable solution is #3. It makes the fewest amount of people angry, doesn't require a bunch of compensations, doesn't actually remove anything and is probably a way easier job than #2's balancing of numbers. Oh, and it STILL leaves room for SOME amount of balancing of the most overpowered damage-mods, without upsetting the damage vs utility options!

... Solution 4 - Make dedicated slots for the DAMAGE mods, because we know exactly what they are and how many slots we'll need for them, whereas utility is an area where more unique mods will continue to be added so we should put them in the area with the most slots.

Powertrippers can powertrip, Utility Modders can Utility, and DE doesn't have quite so much work ahead of it. Literally all they have to do is add one or two extra slots with restrictions that only allow specific mods to be placed there.

[Mizar0011]

... Solution 4 - Make dedicated slots for the DAMAGE mods, because we know exactly what they are and how many slots we'll need for them, whereas utility is an area where more unique mods will continue to be added so we should put them in the area with the most slots.

Powertrippers can powertrip, Utility Modders can Utility, and DE doesn't have quite so much work ahead of it. Literally all they have to do is add one or two extra slots with restrictions that only allow specific mods to be placed there.

This I like.

Ammo consumption is a valid draw-back and is practiced in pretty much every shooter on the market. 

 

You trade power for the ability to spew bullets faster.

 

Compare a sniper-rifle to an SMG. The obviously more powerful weapon is the Sniper-Rifle, but traditionally Snipers have a lower fire-rate which means if they miss, they will be left open to attack without being capable of defending themselves properly.

 

SMG's don't have that problem since they can lay down a constant onslaught of bullets, but they need more bullets to bring down a target than a sniper-rifle, which means they might run out before they kill all the targets, since more bullets are required to take a target down. 

 

In-game you can witness this if you use Twin Vipers on round, and then switch to the LEX the next. You will quickly notice that your ammo pool will be strained with the Twin Vipers, and it takes more than one bullet to kill your targets, while with the LEX you will never be struggling for ammo, and most of your targets will die in one shot.

 

 If two players were to empty their clips simultaneously, the Vipers will run out of ammo a lot faster than the LEX, which makes LEX the obvious weapon to bring in a long-term battle, because when you are out of ammo, you no longer have bite, all you can do is bark.

I see your point and counter with LMG or .50 cal. In game my akzani shoot incredibly fast and can take down a level 40 heavy gunner with half a clip. So the rules are not directly applied in the same way that one shot from a lex even to the head will not drop a level 40 heavy gunner. My point in all of this is removal of the mods is stupid and trying to make others conform to your play style is arrogant and claiming it's the best thing for everyone is damn near god complex and most definitely superiority complex at least. I'm my first post I said, give suggestions that aren't remove. Buff, nerf, or add. All ok but removal on some self serving basis while claiming it's the only good way to do things is the epitome of arrogance.

[Feallike]

SOoo how did a thread about nerfing damage become a thread about how war works........... Please maintain topic. X.x

[Mizar0011]

I may add that I came up with an idea in fan concepts to try and make all weapons end game viable. Problem, all have the same damage you take the one with high status or crit chance. you make them even across the board they're all the same weapon with different looks, I use boltor prime Braton prime and dread as primary's mostly....because they're the best. That's it. Making every gun equal destroys versatility in the same way that some guns being better does. One build will always shine in the end. That's the nature of numbers. In the end there will always be one thing that's better than the rest. Even if Braton was the only gun in the game, there would be one way to build it better than any other way (or maybe 3 ways due to 3 factions....but the builds would be identical minus one or two mods)

SOoo how did a thread about nerfing damage become a thread about how war works........... Please maintain topic. X.x

It returned there :P Edited January 17, 2015 by Mizar0011

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

I'm not gonna get in the middle of this argument but I just wanna point something out.

 

Challenge ≠ Difficulty

 

It is possible to provider a deeper challenge without it necessarily being difficult. It's also possible to make a shallow challenge ridiculously difficult.

 

Challenge guys want deeper challenges because they want to be engaged. It's the driving factor behind why a lot of these people enjoy games to begin with.

 

Power guys want to feel OP because it helps to fufill the "Badass ninja god" fantasy that the game is pushing across. Usually people mention a "power fantasy" in a negative way but it is also a driving factor behind why people enjoy certain games.

  

Most importantly, these two desires don't have to be exclusive to one another. There are games out there that do both pretty well. All it takes is for the dev to design towards it .

[TwiceDead]

I see your point and counter with LMG or .50 cal. In game my akzani shoot incredibly fast and can take down a level 40 heavy gunner with half a clip. So the rules are not directly applied in the same way that one shot from a lex even to the head will not drop a level 40 heavy gunner. My point in all of this is removal of the mods is stupid and trying to make others conform to your play style is arrogant and claiming it's the best thing for everyone is damn near god complex and most definitely superiority complex at least. I'm my first post I said, give suggestions that aren't remove. Buff, nerf, or add. All ok but removal on some self serving basis while claiming it's the only good way to do things is the epitome of arrogance.

LMG's trade accuracy and ammo-consumption for power and fire-rate, they are also heavy and un-wiedly compared to standard SMG's and Assault Rifles.

 

It's a constant trade-off.

 

As for your point, I don't really have a firm opinion on that specifically yet so I am not really going to try and discuss it.

[Mizar0011]

LMG's trade accuracy and ammo-consumption for power and fire-rate, they are also heavy and un-wiedly compared to standard SMG's and Assault Rifles.

 

It's a constant trade-off.

 

As for your point, I don't really have a firm opinion on that specifically yet so I am not really going to try and discuss it.

Fair enough

[Feallike]

Damage should have a tradeoff. 

 

 

With great power comes great skill. (Fullmetal alchemist quote i know i am a nerd) To gain you must give something of equal or greater value. 

 

 

If a gun shot bullets that did 1 million damage i would be fine with it if the gun had 1 bullet in a clip and had a 30 second reload and a huge AOE that can hurt teammates.

 

^ that is equivalent exchange for 1 million damage a shot base. This would make it terrible for people who are bad, but excellent for people who are very good.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Feallike