Why Not Remove Multishot Instead?

[VoidNomade]

So the essence of the thread is "please don´t nerf what i like nerf something i don´t like". Sounds legit.

[Hypernaut1]

So the essence of the thread is "please don´t nerf what i like nerf something i don´t like". Sounds legit.

no, the essence of this thread is saying that serration may not be the problem, but multishot and high dmg elemental mods are redundant.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Hypernaut1

[DarkLordX2]

  im not sure i follow you.

1. why is physical dmg useless

2.how does added dmg make magnetic different from corrosive? you stil have status effects and you still will have elemental weaknesses.

1-Elemental damage is way better than Physical.

 

2-I understand your confusion about the part where i said how the Corrosive differs from the Magnetic, in other words, there isn't weakness to said damage if there is not damage.

[vaugahn]

2-I understand your confusion about the part where i said how the Corrosive differs from the Magnetic, in other words, there isn't weakness to said damage if there is not damage.

How would there not be damage? The only way there's not damage is if the gun actually does 0 damage, which I'm pretty sure nobody here is suggesting.

Weaknesses and resistances apply whether there's 1 point of damage or 1000. No matter how those mods behave, or what percentages they have, corrosive is still corrosive and magnetic is still magnetic. Changing the card won't change the system.

[VoidNomade]

no, the essence of this thread is saying that serration may not be the problem, but multishot and high dmg elemental mods are redundant.

No, that´s just the straw-man argument this thread is trying to make.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Moved to a more appropriate subforum.

[Jeigo]

No, that´s just the straw-man argument this thread is trying to make.

 

The only straw-man used in this thread was this:

 

So the essence of the thread is "please don´t nerf what i like nerf something i don´t like". Sounds legit.

[Ionus]

Then it will just be a +fire rate mod. They should tone it down or get rid of it.

Except it really isn't a fire rate mod on many weapons. Especially on automatic weapons and launchers. It put more bullets out in a larger area. This is very easy to see on the angstrum.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Ionus

[Burnthesteak87]

There's no need to remove Serration nor Multishot. They have to limit/reduce the ammo drops from enemies.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[aegof]

They should probably both be removed/changed dramatically/nerfed into the ground.  They're basically the same problem: there aren't better mods, so they go on every single gun no exceptions.

[Telogor]

I don't have a problem with the removal of multishot if they give buffs to compensate.  For example, if they remove the multishot mod, weapons like the Supra and shotguns need their projectile count increase to keep their area-denial capabilities.

 

One problem with the removal of multishot is that accuracy on certain weapons would need to be increased.  A great example is the Kunai.  Their accuracy is bad enough that multishot is currently necessary to make sure some knives hit at medium range.

[Repligon]

I think elemental mods should change your physical damage (by multiplying damage modifiers) not add damage on top of it.

And Serration, Split Chamber and Hevy Caliber should be mutually exclusive.

 

So...you want to nerf all the damage mods? Then tell me how are we going to deal with high level content?

Obviously, damage nerfs should go in par with enemy tankyness nerf.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Repligon

[geninrising]

This arguement is exactly why they are hesitant to outright remove them, i am indifferent to the whole debate of forced choice and such. But like steve said if they are going to re-evaluate the mods and/or removing any of them the enemies are going to have to change with them. As such the arguement that we wont be able to deal with the enemies is a void one, since noone is talking about leaving enemies the same but removing the mods. Please for the future dont use an arguement that can be so easily defeated.

This. 

 

Removal of "false choice" mods would be beneficial to Warframe as players would actually be free to choose how their build is set up.

 

Currently all Rifles have the following mods that are necessary otherwise you gimp yourself so hard you cannot deal with enemies.

Serration

Split Chamber

Shred/heavy caliber(these are situational but for the most part inclusive to all high dps builds)

 

Currently pistols.

Hornet Strike

Barrel Diffusion

Lethal Torrent

 

Currently Shotguns.

Point Blank/Primed PB if available

Hell's Chamber

Accelerated Blast/Shotgun Spaz/Frail momentum

 

These mods are entirely necessary to a top end DPS build and therefore become false choice mods.

 

If we remove these mods then enemies can be toned down appropriately and with some balance passes other weapons in our "MAstery Fodder" category can actually come out of their dark corner.

 

However should these changes come to pass the energy system would need a look at as well due to the fact that powers already outclass weapons in 99% of content and this change would only cement spam builds further in their dominance.

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising

[carnaga]

This in particular is what I'm not understanding about people who want damage mods nerfed/removed. I don't at all see their thoughts forming into a conclusion like that. What is the point of it? What would be fun about that? How do these kinds of people come up with things like this?

I don't understand it either. I would either say they r playing the wrong game or it's just trolling stupidity.

 

To the rest of the guys: Honestly, this game is player versus environment. If you don't like multishot mod, don't use it. Replace it with something else. If you don't like it, it's your problem, not mine. And now you want to make it my problem. Not cool.

[inappropriatename5818]

Serration needs to go, there's no doubt about it, it's just taking up a mod slot.   

 

I personally would remove the straight +damage mods first, then see where to go from there. It wouldn't be hard rebalancing weapons after removing serration, hornet strike etc, it would just require raising weapon damage by whatever the mod provided.   

 

Multishots are a bit tricky because it would make a lot of secondaries useless and hard to balance, since there are 2 of them for secondaries and 1 gives firerate.   

 

I would however love to see these mandatory mods go, every one they delete is another free slot.

[ZukaBazuka]

Removing one of the mods that actually is unique to the game really doesn't seem like a good idea. If it is going to get a nerf and DE put it on say 30% you pretty much make it useless on any weapon with low ammo cap and would only be good on high ammo cap. If DE decide to remove serration they need to remove all of it and add it to the weapon.

 

But even if you remove those standards mods all I will do is put in dual stats mod. 2 of them. Almost all weapon have good firerate and ammo limit. The other mods are not good enough for the game. They just don't give enough to validate the damage loss.

[Ionus]

I don't understand it either. I would either say they r playing the wrong game or it's just trolling stupidity.

 

To the rest of the guys: Honestly, this game is player versus environment. If you don't like multishot mod, don't use it. Replace it with something else. If you don't like it, it's your problem, not mine. And now you want to make it my problem. Not cool.

Your logic:

Game is PvE>>>No balance needed>>>Players are godlike>>>Game becomes easy>>>People burn through everything faster>>>People complain about the burnout>>>Said people leave the game>>>Player base drops.

Seriously, stop it with the "if you don't like it don't use it" bs. These mods are false choices. You will get NOWHERE far without serration or hornet strike equipped. Almost so with multishot mods. They currently defeat the intended player choice in modding and take up space because they're necessary. They're better off moving the effect of straight damage mods to weapon level. Mutlishot should take ammo instead of cloning bullets to encourage ammo mods.

PvE games NEED to be balanced as much as PvP games do. Balancing isn't exclusively for competitive fairness but also for player retention. Stop acting like you can be a demigod just because that Crewman didn't cry when yiu wiped him.

[carnaga]

Your logic:

Game is PvE>>>No balance needed>>>Players are godlike>>>Game becomes easy>>>People burn through everything faster>>>People complain about the burnout>>>Said people leave the game>>>Player base drops.

Seriously, stop it with the "if you don't like it don't use it" bs. These mods are false choices. You will get NOWHERE far without serration or hornet strike equipped. Almost so with multishot mods. They currently defeat the intended player choice in modding and take up space because they're necessary. They're better off moving the effect of straight damage mods to weapon level. Mutlishot should take ammo instead of cloning bullets to encourage ammo mods.

PvE games NEED to be balanced as much as PvP games do. Balancing isn't exclusively for competitive fairness but also for player retention. Stop acting like you can be a demigod just because that Crewman didn't cry when yiu wiped him.

If  you put it that way

 

Your logic: nerf bannner. All games should be nerfed to extremely hard and frustrating and exhausting gaming experience from the beginning where it takes 2 minutes to kill an enemy.

 

Atm if I want a challenge, I go fight challenging missions. They call it endgame. There I can fight the way with the logic previously mentioned. And to get there I need these mods and good gear. If I want to have lazed out gaming experience, I go with 5 forma gear to earth to fight lvl 1-3 grineer.

 

Thats why warframes are called ninjas.

Edited January 18, 2015 by carnaga

[FenixKilla187]

are you insane ? dont touch seration

how the hell are we suposed to survive in t4 ?

not to mention the soon to come t5

[geninrising]

Seriously, stop it with the "if you don't like it don't use it" bs.

 

This is precisely what we here from ability spammers when we call for a change for balance.

 

Removing one of the mods that actually is unique to the game really doesn't seem like a good idea. If it is going to get a nerf and DE put it on say 30% you pretty much make it useless on any weapon with low ammo cap and would only be good on high ammo cap. If DE decide to remove serration they need to remove all of it and add it to the weapon.

 

But even if you remove those standards mods all I will do is put in dual stats mod. 2 of them. Almost all weapon have good firerate and ammo limit. The other mods are not good enough for the game. They just don't give enough to validate the damage loss.

They do if enemies are then balanced across the board to take into account removal of said mods.

 

Enemies are currently balance upwards far in excess of what they used to be due to a number of factors.

1.False choice weapon mods that allow a weapon to far exceed it's baseline damage. DE implemented Armor/shield scaling.

2. Power spam which negates 99% of the difficulty from the game. DE implemented harsher hp/shield scaling and enemies that remove our ability  to cast as efficiently ie: Nullifiers and eximus enemies universe wide. Also made enmies hit harder to offset the limited time they are CAPABLE of hitting us.

3. Power creep. As new weapons are released DE must maintain a certain level of power creep to keep players interested in getting that next "Gear  High" Currently they release weapons in about a 2 or 3 to one ratio. 2 or 3 meh weapons 1 good weapon(good weapons are equivalent to end  game weapons for infinite content.

 

So if we:

1. remove False choice mods enemies can be balanced to do less damage and take less damage than currently.

2. Fix the broken energy system or implement some restrictions caused by ability spam. DE can lower the harshness of enemies currently in existence.                  

3. Implement a tiered weapon system and balance accordingly to limit power creep within each tier respectably. This too would allow them to  balance enemies vs intended tier weapons.

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising

[Bawalbaba]

As simple as it may sound, removing a straight-up damage increasing mod is not easy. At first it might look like, oh I'm just doing a bit of less damage, no problemo.

But when the same person will face serious damage reduction at 25 minutes even on T2 survival, then that person, and everyone else will start raging on the removal of Serration, Multishot and all those mods. Then they'll start raging on the devs for that, because they removed them. They'll forget that it was them who wanted the nerf in the first place.

So think bothways before wanting to remove something that actively affects the game mechanics. Right now, all damage is scaled using the physical damage mods, remove them, you'll deal pitiful amounts of elemental damage and crit damage. Good luck using your Boltor Prime or Soma Prime and thinking that you're badass.

[Inez]

To actually answer the OP's question: people aren't asking to remove multishot mods because they already have them at max rank.

 

They don't have Serration or Hornet Strike at max rank, so naturally those are the ones that need to be removed.

 

If they actually cared about "build diversity" they would ask for multishot mods to be removed too. And elemental damage mods. Then when everyone is using physical damage mods, they should ask for those to be removed. Then when we all use reload speed and fire rate mods they should ask for those to removed.

 

When we're only left with silence and recoil mods maybe they'll be happy that we have "diversity".

[ZukaBazuka]

If you want build diversity DE should increase the critical chance of all weapons and elemental chance of all weapons. That way we have option to build a weapon differently than before. Now if it has low crit chance there is no reason to build one, its not efficient for it.

[geninrising]

To actually answer the OP's question: people aren't asking to remove multishot mods because they already have them at max rank.

 

They don't have Serration or Hornet Strike at max rank, so naturally those are the ones that need to be removed.

 

If they actually cared about "build diversity" they would ask for multishot mods to be removed too. And elemental damage mods. Then when everyone is using physical damage mods, they should ask for those to be removed. Then when we all use reload speed and fire rate mods they should ask for those to removed.

 

When we're only left with silence and recoil mods maybe they'll be happy that we have "diversity".

Actually I advocate that all damage mods and multishot be removed or changed to other mods so that DE can generate NEW kinds of mods to increase the way we CHOOSE to build rather than the way it is NECESSARY to build our weapons to make them VIABLE.

 

Currently every single weapon in the game utilizes the base damage mod + multishot mod, that equates to no choice in those slots because otherwise your damage is so low two people can use the same gun and while one obliterates enemies in no time the other barely scratches them in the same amount of time. Hence"false choice" mods.

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising

[LtZefar]

 

Serration needs to go, there's no doubt about it, it's just taking up a mod slot.   

 

I personally would remove the straight +damage mods first, then see where to go from there. It wouldn't be hard rebalancing weapons after removing serration, hornet strike etc, it would just require raising weapon damage by whatever the mod provided.   

 

Multishots are a bit tricky because it would make a lot of secondaries useless and hard to balance, since there are 2 of them for secondaries and 1 gives firerate.   

 

I would however love to see these mandatory mods go, every one they delete is another free slot.

 

So what would you put in instead of Serration? Heavy Caliber? 90% Elemental mod?

Go on, tell me which rare mod you'd use that changes your gameplay so you don't have a false choice anymore? 

 

 

Actually I advocate that all damage mods and multishot be removed or changed to other mods so that DE can generate NEW kinds of mods to increase the way we CHOOSE to build rather than the way it is NECESSARY to build our weapons to make them VIABLE.

 

Currently every single weapon in the game utilizes the base damage mod + multishot mod, that equates to no choice in those slots because otherwise your damage is so low two people can use the same gun and while one obliterates enemies in no time the other barely scratches them in the same amount of time. Hence"false choice" mods.

 

What mods would you suggest?

Because I can tell you right away that if all damage mods are removed then mods like.

 

Increased Fire rate

Multi shot

 

Are straight up DPS increase. Then those would be the main mods that all weapons NEED to have. After that you got the boring Reload speed, more ammo, larger magazine and puncture.

 

Then what? What mods should they add that changes gameplay?

 

The reason for all the damage mods is because of progression. When you first started out you didn't have any of those mods. So when you found one it was fun and rewarding. You also got increased damage too which made it a bit easier. After several hundreds of hours you might have found Multi shot and Serration mods which was just a joy to find. Finally you could crank the damage up even further and slaughter the enemies you struggled a bit with before.

 

It was fun. With your suggestion I don't really see what I should look forward too when all damage mods are removed and all we got is utility mods that are mostly boring as hell.