Here's How We Remove Serration And (Attempt To) Balance The Game. Damage 2.5 (Designated Megathread)

[Jahadaya]

Here's a question. Why should we care about mods that are 'Situational' and 'Fit our Playstyle?' If they offer a mod that's "+headshot damage," everyone will just slot it into their builds. Serration removed, replaced with Headshot mod. We're back to square one. And then in a month, the endless post spam of "Remove headshot mod because its essential!" will start up. 

 

Posts like these don't think about what needs to be done after the change. What do we replace Serration with? What do we replace Split Caliber with? etc. Situational mods that stop being situational and become 'Essential?' Its just the same damn thing over and over and over.

What do you mean "dont think about what needs to be done after the change"? Again, did you read it? I only unfortunately couldn't explain myself more because I was tired and ran out of time - but I sure as hell acknowledged what would need to be changed after and how.

 

You argue that Serration being replaced with Conditional mods will just make them "essential". Well... duh. To an extent; nobody is going to run around with no mods on their weapon.

 

They problem now is that with Serration, builds are a bit boring. Every build is obviously going to use the +basedamageoneveryenemyunderanycondition mod. It's stale, and there's a whole lot more potential here. Obviously the only conditional mod wouldn't just be a +headshot damage one, or else we would have the same exact damn problem. We could have potentially dozens of different mods that could fit peoples varied playstyles. Don't think you can hit the heads everytime/don't want to? Howabout on unalerted enemies! Or enemies shooting at you, or enemies not shooting at you! You decide! The idea is that all of these mods are equally effective objectively, but more/less effective depending on the person. Rather than Serration, which is just objectively the single most effective mod on any weapon.

[GildedTuna]

Ever heard of a strawman?

That's what most of the forums is blowing up with. If they change or remove serration its going to open a precedent and they will have to completely overhaul the damage system. It isn't as simple as nerfing/removing a mod.

[Jahadaya]

OK: I love your idea.

 

So for a moral boost to you since i know you are getting haters. (i don't get what those people are thinking this game is broken and needs fixing)

 

To be honest i think the DE should either get rid of damage mods, or integrate them into the Focus system and make you have to choose between mods like serration or Elements.

 

Kitty photo:

 

 

 

Also if the DE goes through with this type of change they need to basically lock forums for a week so that players can reforma and rebuild stuff so that the forums aren't spammed by fools who are just complaining about grinding.

 

P.S Everyone who is saying just a straight up NO and i want to downvote your post. Please just don't post then. Your just bumping the OP so your helping him in the long run so instead of adding a useless post please say something about what you want to happen other then just a simple NO.

This actually made my day xD Haha, thanks man!

 

And I'm pretty sure I saw you on Region last night and we were both arguing against someone else for this very idea :D 

[GildedTuna]

Yeah, that is kinda the point, to add more diversity to modding rather that just putting on mods that are essential. :/

There will always be mods that are essential.

[(XBOX)MAXsandwich]

Sigh.... you can not... just give... every lvl 30 weapon.. a built in... 165% damage bonus....

LEVELING UP DMG CARDS IS PART OF THE PROGRESSION

Locking high dmg weapons behind mastery rank is a NO... MR = PLAT

So unless someone wants advocating a much longer 1-max lvl for weapons serration should probably stay




 

[vaugahn]

I agree with the spirit of what you're getting at, but I really do not think having weapon damage increase with rank is a good idea. Or at least, not by the magnitude you proposed. 

 

I think it would be better to go for a tiered weapon system, with weaker weapons available only/more easily to new players, and then getting stronger weapons as you progress. You could even use the new combo weapons thing they're doing to facilitate that, letting players build their weak weapons into stronger weapons as they go.

[(PSN)jwernecke]

So much of this IMO comes from where you play.

This Soma Prime build it ridiculously OP on say Jupiter and lower.....however about 10 waves into T4 it fits and by 25-30 its starting to take half a mag to drop a heavy gunner.  

 

My amprex build on Sechura DSD up to wave 15-20 is stupid powerful....however by 40 its not quite so OP.  It forces team play ladies and gentleman.  Every once in awhile step out of the t1-t2/jupiter-saturn-mercury and play where it is difficult and I think the reasoning behind Serration and others will become far clearer.

Edited January 19, 2015 by (PS4)jwernecke

[vaugahn]

That's what most of the forums is blowing up with. If they change or remove serration its going to open a precedent and they will have to completely overhaul the damage system. It isn't as simple as nerfing/removing a mod.

 

Thank goodness they're not going to just nerf/remove a mod.

 

Rest assured, when the time comes to make adjustments to damage output it will be more than just a small tweak. Enemy damage, health, armor, and even damage types may be questioned.

 

https://warframe.com/news/devstream-44-overview

[KF_Kenobi]

 

"Our goal is to avoid having a single dominant weapon, build, mod configuration..." - from the Community Hot Topics thread in August of 2013, the same one that spawned Damage 2.0.

 

That was two years ago. Maybe that goal wasn't entirely realistic. Happens all the time in game development.

Edited January 19, 2015 by KF_Kenobi

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

No. I like one shotting everything up to the 40 minute mark. That's when your work and dedication to Warframe shines through on leveling Serration. Plus the mod itself is a reason to Forma your weapon so you can open up the slot you couldn't until you did. It wouldn't feel like Warframe without Serration.

[Psiloc1n]

TL;DR

'Lets nerf the DPS of EVERY weapon into the ground'

[Jahadaya]

I agree with the spirit of what you're getting at, but I really do not think having weapon damage increase with rank is a good idea. Or at least, not by the magnitude you proposed. 

 

I think it would be better to go for a tiered weapon system, with weaker weapons available only/more easily to new players, and then getting stronger weapons as you progress. You could even use the new combo weapons thing they're doing to facilitate that, letting players build their weak weapons into stronger weapons as they go.

This is a great idea, but why can't we have both? If by rank you mean weapon level and not mastery (I meant weapon level), we could easily have weapons of lower tiers have a smaller damage increase :D (Since 5.5 per level maxes out to be 165% like Serration, that could be for tier 5 and tier 1 could be a 1.1% increase per level for a max of 33% increase in damage). Of course, that could greatly anger people who liked using weapons that are not of higher tiers, so you can raise that with maybe a new potato/ a forma/ mastery rank/ something else or something :P

 

And I think the tiers of weapons you can use/unlock should be tied to Mastery Rank. Tier 1 for Ranks 1-2. Tier 1+2 for ranks 2-4. Tier 1+2+3 for ranks 4-6. Tier 1+2+3+4 for ranks 6-8. All 5 Tiers unlocked for Ranks 8 and above. I think this would be great. 

[Ionus]

So much of this IMO comes from where you play.

This Soma Prime build it ridiculously OP on say Jupiter and lower.....however about 10 waves into T4 it fits and by 25-30 its starting to take half a mag to drop a heavy gunner.  

 

My amprex build on Sechura DSD up to wave 15-20 is stupid powerful....however by 40 its not quite so OP.  It forces team play ladies and gentleman.  Every once in awhile step out of the t1-t2/jupiter-saturn-mercury and play where it is difficult and I think the reasoning behind Serration and others will become far clearer.

Balancing weapons to T4 wave 40 enemies is not what the developers are trying to achieve.

[Vilitas]

"If I'm not using an entire clip to kill one enemy, the game is too easy and bullS#&$! DE, nerf it!"

[Quatrez]

Brace yourself for DAMAGE 3.0, the whole thing is more complicated than we think....

[(XBOX)Sgt Batman MD]

This is a great idea, but why can't we have both? If by rank you mean weapon level and not mastery (I meant weapon level), we could easily have weapons of lower tiers have a smaller damage increase :D (Since 5.5 per level maxes out to be 165% like Serration, that could be for tier 5 and tier 1 could be a 1.1% increase per level for a max of 33% increase in damage). Of course, that could greatly anger people who liked using weapons that are not of higher tiers, so you can raise that with maybe a new potato/ a forma/ mastery rank/ something else or something :P

 

And I think the tiers of weapons you can use/unlock should be tied to Mastery Rank. Tier 1 for Ranks 1-2. Tier 1+2 for ranks 2-4. Tier 1+2+3 for ranks 4-6. Tier 1+2+3+4 for ranks 6-8. All 5 Tiers unlocked for Ranks 8 and above. I think this would be great. 

 

+1 would read again XD

[vaugahn]

This is a great idea, but why can't we have both? If by rank you mean weapon level and not mastery (I meant weapon level), we could easily have weapons of lower tiers have a smaller damage increase :D (Since 5.5 per level maxes out to be 165% like Serration, that could be for tier 5 and tier 1 could be a 1.1% increase per level for a max of 33% increase in damage). Of course, that could greatly anger people who liked using weapons that are not of higher tiers, so you can raise that with maybe a new potato/ a forma/ mastery rank/ something else or something :P

 

And I think the tiers of weapons you can use/unlock should be tied to Mastery Rank. Tier 1 for Ranks 1-2. Tier 1+2 for ranks 2-4. Tier 1+2+3 for ranks 4-6. Tier 1+2+3+4 for ranks 6-8. All 5 Tiers unlocked for Ranks 8 and above. I think this would be great. 

 

Well, that would work too. I'm just thinking that a 165% damage increase across the board simply for ranking your gun might be a bit severe, especially considering that new players often rank their gun long before they even see a damage mod.

 

And if it was me, I would tie tiers to planetary progression. Have a tier for the inner solar system, a tier for the outer solar system, and then a tier for the kupier belt/void/exotic locations.

 

-snip-

-snip-

 

You two clearly did not read the OP.

Edited January 19, 2015 by vaugahn

[Darkmoone1]

Seeing that poll was quite dissapointing

Pretty much. Not sure if every voter understood just how important that poll is/was.

[Jahadaya]

Ok, I read over it again, and your scaling is still broken.

165% damage through level up means that you cannot effectively balance low end content.

As it is, a new player can hang out on mercury and Venus for awhile picking up some mods and ranking up gear.

Through that time limited resources keep the players power level pretty low.

The scaling through weapon level breaks that, you hit level 15 on your weapon and that's alot of damage to give a new player for free.

To the point that everything up to Mars etc becomes redundant in terms of a challenge.

Plus the overall scaling curve of the game becomes a hell of a lot shallower, meaning that the difference between mid game and late game content would be negligible.

Removing damage mods just turns out to be a lot of work for pretty much no payoff.

I may not be the best at deciding how to scale things - but I had an idea for this that I just posted in this thread. Gonna reiterate it here for you to see.

 

We could easily have weapons of lower tiers have a smaller damage increase :D (Since 5.5 per level maxes out to be 165% like Serration, that could be for tier 5 and tier 1 could be a 1.1% increase per level for a max of 33% increase in damage). Of course, that could greatly anger people who liked using weapons that are not of higher tiers, so you can raise that with maybe a new potato/ a forma/ mastery rank/ something else or something :P

 

And I think the tiers of weapons you can use/unlock should be tied to Mastery Rank. Tier 1 for Ranks 1-2. Tier 1+2 for ranks 2-4. Tier 1+2+3 for ranks 4-6. Tier 1+2+3+4 for ranks 6-8. All 5 Tiers unlocked for Ranks 8 and above. I think this would be great. 

[Ionus]

Except not really. This is a fallacious argument. 

 

Also, I must not be people.

Yeah, I don't really understand this argument either. What mod could possibly replace serration?

The only thing that comes to mind are the elemental mods, but most people just pick what they like for those anyways.

[Feallike]

Keep this topic constructive. Do not post anything that doesn't have anything to do with the OP. -.-

 

Keep the post ontopic and constructive, anyone who basically just posts NO or -1 is spamming.

 

 

OP most of the votes where uninformed though the DE uses Community Hot topics as a way of getting a idea of what the playerbase is thinking in the end they will do what they want.

 

If Serration needs removed they will do it whether we like it or not. Though all these forums about it does help them create a idea about it. The forums about coptering helped create Directional melee so i would like it if people kept up with these forums.

[EloreRainbrought]

I vote for increase dmg % for only one reason, efficiency.

We have too many grind and RNG involved already, efficiency is a must,and I feel fun for overpowering enemy, not the other way around.

I got a daily routine of 24/7 data center support job which I can't really play much, so efficiency is what I vote, and increase secretion dmg% is the only option to me.

[(PSN)jwernecke]

Balancing weapons to T4 wave 40 enemies is not what the developers are trying to achieve.

Balancing to anything is not what the anti serration crowd is trying to achieve.   Plus I never said jack about T4 wave 40.  I did misquote a bit on the DSD.  By wave 25 I don't decimate everything on the map.  Read my post above the last....where does it stop?  Where are we headed?  Finally pull the Tenno out of their warframes and go to using BB guns and Batons?  Stop trying to fix what isn't broken.  Serration IS what keeps everything level.  The fact that you ran Terminus 340 times and ranked a weapon to 30 shouldn't give you the same power as someone who truly put time in and worked at getting cores and credits and took that 10 slot card to the max.  Lets just make it simple....If you don't want to rely on Serration then don't...but don't change the way I play because you don't like it.  "You" do you and let me do me.  

[vaugahn]

Balancing to anything is not what the anti serration crowd is trying to achieve.   Plus I never said jack about T4 wave 40.  I did misquote a bit on the DSD.  By wave 25 I don't decimate everything on the map.  Read my post above the last....where does it stop?  Where are we headed?  Finally pull the Tenno out of their warframes and go to using BB guns and Batons?  Stop trying to fix what isn't broken.  Serration IS what keeps everything level.  The fact that you ran Terminus 340 times and ranked a weapon to 30 shouldn't give you the same power as someone who truly put time in and worked at getting cores and credits and took that 10 slot card to the max.  Lets just make it simple....If you don't want to rely on Serration then don't...but don't change the way I play because you don't like it.  "You" do you and let me do me.  

 

This whole argument is just...well, wrong, for lack of a better word. You're focusing on all the wrong things, and blatantly disregarding what people are saying about the topic.

[Synvul]

So if totally wiping and restarting then that means we can skip mods being in the game for weapons and have weapons parts that we can attach to weapons instead? Sort of like different stocks offer different things and different ammo for what is needed for that mission?