GreyEnneract Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I am laughing throughout this entire thread. Literally the same arguments and refutations page by page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EloreRainbrought Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Solution 1: make serration works like the potatoes, you remove serration as a mod but add it as a potato (orange) maybe? It give the same rate of dmg increase at Max level of your weapon to free up the spot for a new mod. I don't mind this potato worth 20 plats well no Mather how they gonna work it out, this is the first impression when the serration topic comes out. Need more plats, and I am OK with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Cynda_ Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I'm a bit surprised people haven't mentioned conditional dmg mods as an alternative to raw dmg mods ie. overheat dmg or headshot bonuses. I'm sure mods like these will change up some builds in order to suit your playstyle. So if/when DE decides to phase out raw dmg mods, I'm sure they'll do it right and if they don't, well, the community is there for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swihart91 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I am laughing throughout this entire thread. Literally the same arguments and refutations page by page. I know I know I have to keep reiterating thaI'm not against a damage revamp eventually, bit it's all the people who hopped on the wagon as soon as it was mentioned serration might be removed just to get the mod slot, and to make up for that it is the current demand to make it passive which will cause the damage 3.0 to be worked on and this isn't needed as of this moment stealth and parlour 2.0 still need worked and a multitude of other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Silverback73 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 So the argument is whether 3.0 is necessary or if removing Serration/Multishot's "cascade effect" on other damage type mods still makes it viable in lieu of simply removing it and balancing it innately so we have more horizontal diversity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphafox Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 If people don't see the issue with serration they have a serious problem.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaosyn Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I am more concerned that since we CAN encounter level 100 enemies (example),we should be able to kill them....Not too easily mind you,but not so hard that one second is all the time you have between seeing them and dying...If you give us infinite scaling enemies then should we not have the means to fight against those enemies if we can get to them? At this point it isn't carrot and stick....it's carrot and sledgehammer to the teeth. I'm not against the removal of damage mods....AFTER we're sure it will work correctly.(whatever they decide to do) I love DE and this game, but I've seen changes reverted before and I've seen things changed to something unplanned....and I can't say their track record with these things is something I'd bet on them getting right from the get go. For now though they're needed..period. IF DE can make it so they're not,then remove them...but not until then and only if we're sure the system isn't going to kick us in the face at some OTHER point of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_Redwire Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 If people don't see the issue with serration they have a serious problem.. Followed closely by the only argument they have against the removal of direct damage mods which basically states "People will just fill it with the next best/efficient mod always no exceptions." Seriorsly people, give me something better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xylonez Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 If people don't see the issue with serration they have a serious problem.. or they might just have a different opinion about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swihart91 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I am more concerned that since we CAN encounter level 100 enemies (example),we should be able to kill them....Not too easily mind you,but not so hard that one second is all the time you have between seeing them and dying...If you give us infinite scaling enemies then should we not have the means to fight against those enemies if we can get to them? At this point it isn't carrot and stick....it's carrot and sledgehammer to the teeth. I'm not against the removal of damage mods....AFTER we're sure it will work correctly.(whatever they decide to do) I love DE and this game, but I've seen changes reverted before and I've seen things changed to something unplanned....and I can't say their track record with these things is something I'd bet on them getting right from the get go. For now though they're needed..period. IF DE can make it so they're not,then remove them...but not until then and only if we're sure the system isn't going to kick us in the face at some OTHER point of the game. Exactly! It is going to bring on damage 3.0 when this happens but then the whole game needs to be rebalance. This isnt some quick hot fix de can pull off in a week and it shouldn't be on the fore front of what needs to be done right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaosyn Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 If people don't see the issue with serration they have a serious problem.. If people don't see the issue with limited scaling players fighting infinitely scaling enemies,they have a serious problem... Serration and other damage mods only go so far....It isn't the cause of the issue it is a side effect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphafox Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 That's a problem I notice alot in the Warframe community,most of them have the reasoning of a 5 year old children.(But I still like them of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_Redwire Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 If people don't see the issue with limited scaling players fighting infinitely scaling enemies,they have a serious problem... Serration and other damage mods only go so far....It isn't the cause of the issue it is a side effect... That makes no sense considering how many good suggestions for independent damage mod ideas I've seen that depend on the players skill, intelligence, and accuracy. Tell me how that's limiting when talking about damage scaling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaosyn Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Our Frames and Weapons only reach a certain point in terms of power....even with Forma and maxed mods there's only so much you can do....Enemies however have NO limitations whatsoever.... Damage mods are a side effect because in order to have us be sort of viable at higher levels more damage was needed....but since enemies have 0 limitations it was a band aid fix because once we reached THAT threshold we were right back to getting beaten to death... A complete rework of scaling,damage,shields,armor,abilities....EVERYTHING is pretty much where this is likely to go.... Those situational damage mods will suffer the same issues if something isn't done because there is a limit to our power but not theirs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_Redwire Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Our Frames and Weapons only reach a certain point in terms of power....even with Forma and maxed mods there's only so much you can do....Enemies however have NO limitations whatsoever.... Damage mods are a side effect because in order to have us be sort of viable at higher levels more damage was needed....but since enemies have 0 limitations it was a band aid fix because once we reached THAT threshold we were right back to getting beaten to death... A complete rework of scaling,damage,shields,armor,abilities....EVERYTHING is pretty much where this is likely to go.... Those situational damage mods will suffer the same issues if something isn't done because there is a limit to our power but not theirs... You do know that we're not actually supposed to scale infinitely along side the enemy, right? That's intentional design. The enemy is SUPPOSED to beat you at some point. Thousands of game utilize this concept. We are not meant to be immortal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climatiseur Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I agree that the mod system needs a total rework. It is the core of so many unbalanced and scaling problems. I had a glance on the opinions of linking damage output to MR. However, as the current MR system is based on how many Frames and weapons you rank up, I think it would be problematic as some people just don't have so much time / don't bother to rank up things that are unnecessary for them. And the MR doesn't necessarily reflect their skills. Hence currently most of the weapons and content are only locked below MR8. For the pure damage mods, may I suggest just retain the mods and all the progress at the moment, but make them separate from the mod slots. i.e. They do not consume a mod slot and capacity. However, They can still be rank up by fusion cores or duplicates. Then, new players still have the chance to rank up the mod faster or slower according to their need. Other OP suggestion are also good. I think those obviously powerful mods should be tune down, adding negative aspects to trigger thoughts about how would you use the weapon effectively rather than just equipping all the no-negative-effects powerful mods and run around. And yeah the whole enemy power and scaling needs to change. All of those changes start from adjusting the problematic mod system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StinkyPygmy Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 No OP. Thats not why some people support its removal/rework. Like, not even close. Just... You don't have to agree but at the very least know what you're talking about rather then misrepresenting the othersides reasoning. Swing and a miss, Paco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OfficerBeepsky Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I personally would like a revamped damage system where nothing adds damage. No pure mods adding damage. No elemental mods adding damage. IPS damage is almost irrelevant because of elemental mods adding damage based on total damage. Pure damage mods are mandatory because you need them in the current enemy scaling system or else you're gonna have a hard time. Basically, it goes down to every weapon relying on its base stats. This way we won't have an inflated enemy scaling where their EHP is in the thousands so we can balance things easier. Starting off with the starchart and ending with a tiered system for weapons that has both vertical and horizontal progression. that'll still fall victim to the whole "certain weapons innately perform better than others" problem though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaosyn Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) You do know that we're not actually supposed to scale infinitely along side the enemy, right? That's intentional design. The enemy is SUPPOSED to beat you at some point. Thousands of game utilize this concept. We are not meant to be immortal. Of course. But my point is that DE places these game enders in missions where the whole point is to go as long and as far as you can,and only those missions even have the potential to spawn them.There's no need to have enemies you can't fight if it's just to end the mission at some predetermined point. Survival could just end with the Lone Tenno finding everything worth finding so you go to extraction... Defense could end with the Pod being extracted so there's no reason to stay....Intercept could end with no more transmissions being channeled through the capture points (they're wise to it and stop sending or something) There's really no need to just throw invincible enemies at us to give us our cut off point....Unless it's something that awakens and begins hunting us right there,for what we've done,right there. (like Corpus sending an Uber Jackal when we steal all the data from capture points or something)....I guess my point is DE shouldn't KILL us to tell us where THEIR limit to what they want us to do is.... Edited January 19, 2015 by Chaosyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_Redwire Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Of course. But my point is that DE places these game enders in missions where the whole point is to go as long and as far as you can,and only those missions even have the potential to spawn them.There's no need to have enemies you can't fight if it's just to end the mission at some predetermined point. Survival could just end with the Lone Tenno finding everything worth finding so you go to extraction... Defense could end with the Pod being extracted so there's no reason to stay....Intercept could end with no more transmissions being channeled through the capture points (they're wise to it and stop sending or something) There's really no need to just throw invincible enemies at us to give us our cut off point....Unless it's something that awakens and begins hunting us right there,for what we've done,right there. (like Corpus sending an Uber Jackal when we steal all the data from capture points or something)....I guess my point is DE shouldn't KILL us to tell us where THEIR limit to what they want us to do is.... That's just not how it works broskii. Not sure how else to put it but you're in the wrong game if that's how you feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaosyn Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 To me it's like you've walked 200 miles and the person that decides that you will NOT walk any further cuts off your legs instead of just saying no,that's enough,go rest...You did your part. Regardless though I still love playing the game,I just quit those missions before death is mandatory. I still wonder how far I can go,I just won't test it and risk gaining nothing from it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taranis49 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I feel like serration and other mods like it are the very core of our mod system. Removing these would need a total rework of the mod system. I feel like they would instead rush it, and the game would be broken in many too many ways. I've posted this quote once today, might as well do it again: "Our goal is to avoid having a single dominant weapon, build, mod configuration..." - from the Community Hot Topics thread in August of 2013, the same one that was the genesis for Damage 2.0 and reworked the scaling system, emphasis mine. Under the above stated goal, "mandatory mod" is an oxymoron - it defeats the entire purpose of it being a mod in the first place. By the standards of the developer, mods like Serration undermine the entire reason for the mod system's existence - there's no reason to give the player variety when there's only a handful of viable options anyway. It's the same reason why Damage 1.0 with its AP/"Armor Ignore" weapons went and (rightly) died in a fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otaiken Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) All this work so some shmuck can slot his Fast Hands... No seriously... this won't fix anything. There will still be trash tier weapons, some weapon types obviously wonť benefit from conditional damage mods. For example some weapon types don't care about accuracy (hence Heavy Caliber being always just more damage on them). So weapon types you can't reliably headshot with etc. The progression would get completely #*($%%@... as we now have mostly account progression on everything. For example, new players "scale" through those damage mods as they go through the map of the solar system. So Mercury -> Pluto. So either you slow down weapon levelling to a crawl... so it takes roughly the amount of time it takes to go through the entire map to level one weapon. Or you make the entire map pretty much one or two set levels. Otherwise players will simply wipe the floor with enemies. Also, account progression mostly stays on Warframe mods... -> everything is a glass cannon now, GJ. There will still be optimal builds, there will still be weapon tiers and when the dust settles nothing will change. Mod slot... just... one mod slot. Edited January 19, 2015 by LocoWithGun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psiloc1n Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 You two clearly did not read the OP. I think it is actually you who did not read the OP. Or maybe you did and just cant understand what he said. Either way mr 8000 posts with only 400 hrs in game, maybe you should spend less time on the forums and actually play the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeargantHaztagazpacho Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Well...duh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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