Nerfing Nova For The Sake Of Challenging Missions.

[AlphaHorseman]

Ah I hear someone misspelled my name? Oh look who it is. *insert maniacal laugh here*

 

Molecular Prime? Well well, it would be important to note that Nova is a Glass Cannon. The girl is supposed to be able to dish out damage in droves. She isn't supposed to be able to take it though. Does this definition fit her as she is now? Yep. AMD and MP are her main damage dealing abilities, and even then, both don't even actually do that much damage, MP doesn't even do any damage at all.

 

MP acts as her utility, actually, it primes the enemies, sets them up for the kill, it doesn't actually hurt them. But, it gives players the opportunity and breathing room to kill enemies. Without it, or AMD, or even her Wormhole ability, she isn't even a Glass Cannon anymore, just Glass. MP's current iteration was a very good rebalance, IMO, as it is dependent on range and duration and power strength to be effective. Lower range, the explosions don't go as far, lower duration, and your MP doesn't go that far, lower power strength, and you've got enemies minutely slowed, or even running and shooting faster at you.

 

It's actually a pretty balanced ult, I must say.

[Azawarau]

Ah I hear someone misspelled my name? Oh look who it is. *insert maniacal laugh here*

 

Molecular Prime? Well well, it would be important to note that Nova is a Glass Cannon. The girl is supposed to be able to dish out damage in droves. She isn't supposed to be able to take it though. Does this definition fit her as she is now? Yep. AMD and MP are her main damage dealing abilities, and even then, both don't even actually do that much damage, MP doesn't even do any damage at all.

 

MP acts as her utility, actually, it primes the enemies, sets them up for the kill, it doesn't actually hurt them. But, it gives players the opportunity and breathing room to kill enemies. Without it, or AMD, or even her Wormhole ability, she isn't even a Glass Cannon anymore, just Glass. MP's current iteration was a very good rebalance, IMO, as it is dependent on range and duration and power strength to be effective. Lower range, the explosions don't go as far, lower duration, and your MP doesn't go that far, lower power strength, and you've got enemies minutely slowed, or even running and shooting faster at you.

 

It's actually a pretty balanced ult, I must say.

That was actually purposely mispelled. I didnt make it obvious enough apparently....

 

Still you want to talk trash about it though which is interesting. Ill keep note of this

 

Youre ignoring that MP has a 75% damage mitigation. Nova prime is on par with trinity for DR except for the whole team. With a damage buff, and speed recution, and extra damage, in 82 meters

 

Its too much breathing room. Dont pretend it doesnt deal massive damage with your second paragraph there. It can still clear groups very easily with AoE damage and reduce speed

[AlphaHorseman]

That was actually purposely mispelled. I didnt make it obvious enough apparently....

 

Still you want to talk trash about it though which is interesting. Ill keep note of this

 

Youre ignoring that MP has a 75% damage mitigation. Nova prime is on par with trinity for DR except for the whole team. With a damage buff, and speed recution, and extra damage, in 82 meters

 

Its too much breathing room. Dont pretend it doesnt deal massive damage with your second paragraph there. It can still clear groups very easily with AoE damage and reduce speed

Oh I have no idea what kind of trash talking you're talking about. I just laughed because someone decided to butcher my name purposely.

 

It's a speed reduction, not a damage reduction, enemies can still do damage. And that's with a good power strength build. Your 82 meters isn't the standard kiddo, you need to put duration on that sucker to make it last that long, not to mention it hinders range if you've put Narrow Minded on there. There ya go, tradeoffs for a balanced skill like that. And then you'll have to factor in strength mods to ensure that the speed debuff is strong.

 

Oh its actually quite a right amount of breathing room, as the poor girl doesn't have the armor, health, nor shields to take the incoming damage, hence why she's a Glass Cannon. Oh and it doesn't deal massive damage, it's your guns/other powers that set off the bomb after all. The Molecular Prime is the gunpowder, your other guns/powers are the spark.

 

See, it's a utility skill. Gives you good utility to kill, not actually dealing some damage until you set the bomb off.

 

And again, it's tied to duration, range, and strength. That's pretty balanced.

Edited January 27, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[thisbandisawful]

Nerfing is always reducing peoples fun. Re-Balancing on the other hand

 

ahaha you think these are different things

 

apparently people only have fun if they're using an overpowered spell

 

i didn't want to quote this before but

 

How about for once a person instead of trying to take someone else fun away from them,

 

People who call nerf all the time often aren't ever doing it for balance sake,

 

those with selfish opinions on game design

 

Do everyone who loves the Nova a favor and stop trying to smash their toy because you have an issue with it.

 

Now when a frame is so OP that the team layouts of warframe become as an example (not-real). Mesa/Mesa/Mesa/Mesa or if a single warframe can make the team 100% no fail immortal *im looking at you trinity and frost prenerf* then and only then should you think about nerfing a frame.

 

Otherwise it would be nice if more frames would get redesigns and buffs so people were given more options for high end content. Not less.

 

the repeated attacks on other people's motivations is insulting and fallacious

 

nerfing is an incredibly important part of balancing. it's far more work - and far more risky - to improve a large number of underpowered elements as opposed to nerfing a single overpowered element. every action taken in balancing has the potential to be taken too far. buffing a large number of elements is taking a large number of actions

 

and you assume that a team incapable of delivering a properly-done nerf is capable of delivering a large number of well-balanced buffs?

 

and here's the thing: even if we were to accept that nerfing would always make an ability useless, that doesn't mean molecular prime doesn't require addressing

[thisbandisawful]

It's a speed reduction, not a damage reduction, enemies can still do damage

 

... slowly

 

Oh its actually quite a right amount of breathing room, as the poor girl doesn't have the armor, health, nor shields to take the incoming damage, hence why she's a Glass Cannon. Oh and it doesn't deal massive damage, it's your guns/other powers that set off the bomb after all. The Molecular Prime is the gunpowder, your other guns/powers are the spark.

 

See, it's a utility skill. Gives you good utility to kill, not actually dealing some damage until you set the bomb off.

 

And again, it's tied to duration, range, and strength. That's pretty balanced.

 

just because a spell is a 'utility spell' does not mean it cannot be overpowered

 

nova's slightly lower tank doesn't offset the huge number of things mp does to every baddy in the room

[ThePresident777]

4 Tenno Devastating Massive Armies implies Devastating Massive Power so all the excuses made to nerf Mprime are unsupported, moot, misguided for The Core of Warframe.

 

DE implied it themselves:

Warframe: Developer Q&A , Answer to Question 4:

The core is the 4 guys against a massive army.  And, generally speaking, they are devastating. The core is not something like in Gears of War where the one on one is something a bit more balanced.  One Space Ninja against a whole ship of Grineer is the idea.  But, that needs to be balanced by boss battles, and by like desperate scenarios.  But, generally speaking, the whole idea of it, even an old ninja (right?) is that the untrained militia get devastated by a single one.

 

Edited January 28, 2015 by ThePresident777

[RealPandemonium]

4 Tenno Devastating Massive Armies implies Devastating Massive Power so all the excuses made to nerf Mprime are unsupported, moot, misguided for The Core of Warframe.

 

DE inferred it themselves:

I don't need crutches to devastate massive armies with my warframe.  Live up to the challenge and get good.  I'm a Tenno.  You just want a free ride. 

[(PSN)BossNotACapo]

quote name="thisbandisawful" post="4316695" timestamp="1422260170"]i paid a hundred and forty dollars for mine but that doesn't change whether or not the frame is well balanced

i paid a hundred and forty dollars for mine but that doesn't change whether or not the frame is well balanced

I have put over a hundred also so whats your point? Like I stated I worked to get this frame because of its devastation. But to your point this frame isn't well balanced lots of them aren't. Nekros, Frost, Mesa, poor Ember just to name a few. If MP gets altered in any form she would be ruined.

[thisbandisawful]

4 Tenno Devastating Massive Armies implies Devastating Massive Power so all the excuses made to nerf Mprime are unsupported, moot, misguided for The Core of Warframe.

 

DE inferred it themselves:

 

by that 'logic' a spell that instantly nukes everything on the map is not overpowered, either

 

again, you're suggesting that the thread's about nerfing the spell so that nova is incapable of playing on the same level as the other warframes. that is not the case

 

If MP gets altered in any form she would be ruined.

 

lawl no even removing only the explosion effect would leave mp as a top-tier spell

[AlphaHorseman]

... slowly

 

 

just because a spell is a 'utility spell' does not mean it cannot be overpowered

 

nova's slightly lower tank doesn't offset the huge number of things mp does to every baddy in the room

It still isn't a damage reduction.

 

Nova's a "slightly lower tank"? How? There's nothing tanky about her. None of her skills buff armor, health, or HP, and even THOSE stats are weak. That's because that's her theme, Glass Cannon. Good abilities for dishing out damage, but she can't take it back like that. The effectiveness of the MP for "the huge number of things mp does to every baddy in the room" part will be addressed in the next paragraph.

 

The ability isn't overpowered. It's very well balanced. Players can mod it without Corrupted Mods and make it a skill that's a "jack of all trades, master of none". It functions good with a balance of duration, range, and strength. Add in Corrupted Mods and you're sacrificing one aspect of the skill to boost another. Narrow Minded gives your MP more distance, but cuts the range of the explosions shorter. Overextended gives you wider explosion radius, but seriously gets wonky when you get to negative power strength. Transient Fortitude gives it good power strength, but makes your MP travel less farther than it did without it. The skills reliance on Duration, Range, and Power Strength make it balanced greatly, and allows for interesting situations with the addition of Corrupted Mods.

[thisbandisawful]

nova has average hp and average armour. her shields are in the lower group. this is not at all 'glass'

 

mp reduces incoming damage. because the enemies are slowed, they attack less often. i cannot believe this needs to be explained

 

most frames' spells use a combination of attributes. mp has too many powers over a huge area of effect. other spells don't dominate the missions they're in to such a degree

 

internal balance does not equal external. this also should not need to be explained

[thisbandisawful]

also saying 'one thing about this is good, another thing about this is bad' does not mean the element is at all balanced. mp's multiple effects and extreme crowd control will dominate a mission and reduce gameplay to a turkey shoot. suggesting that having to make modding choices offsets this is nuts

[AlphaHorseman]

Oh it pretty much is glass. The girl has very little defense outside of her powers.

 

Ah, so it's a pseudo damage reduction. The enemies still can deal the exact same amount of damage they did before. Only difference now is that they are under the effect of MP's crowd control.

 

Her ability does use a combination of attributes. It's an expanding field that slows and primes enemies in the affected area. Too many powers? What are you talking about? It has 3 attributes on activation. "Huge area of effect" is dependent on how "huge" the players modifications affect the power. It's a CC ability that does its function, it "dominates" the enemy, that's the point of the skill. Chaos and Radial Blind do that job very well also.

 

Oh it actually does. Because the internal balance of the power dictates how it behaves externally.

 

I never said one thing about it is good and the other things about it is bad. I said that the skill is balanced because it's great potential is tied to three attributes that make it not so straightforward to mod for. "Nuts", is it? To have a skill be reliant on not only Duration, but Range and Power Strength? For the good CC this skill provides, it's a great balance for it.

 

If you hate it so much, just don't play Nova, plain and simple. If you do play Nova, just don't use the ability, and voila, you don't have to be burdened with using a good ability.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Just going to pop my head in here to say a bit on what I think. 

I don't think Nova's balance is perfect, but the changes Nova had undergone I believe was a better step over what she had been. 
Her place now is okay, not great, but okay. I'd argue she's roughly as balanced as Oberon, overall. Take that relation as you will.

[thisbandisawful]

Oh it pretty much is glass. The girl has very little defense outside of her powers.

 

Ah, so it's a pseudo damage reduction. The enemies still can deal the exact same amount of damage they did before. Only difference now is that they are under the effect of MP's crowd control.

 

of all the warframes' defensive attributes, nova has the mode armour and hp, and 225 shield to the mode 300, as well as being fast. that's not 'very little defence', that's slightly lower than average. and regardless of nova's own stats, mp still trivialises content, even solo

 

no, dps being a function of damage*frequency, it's a direct reduction in dps, which is pretty obviously what was being discussed. we'll chalk the apparent lack of understanding up as an attempt on a dumb cutesy game of semantics on your part

 

nova is not the only warframe that has spells utilising multiple attributes. most warframe builds'll mostly mod for powers and tank, nova is not unique at all. chaos and radial blind do not also increase dealt damage and make enemies explode. again, it trivialises the game

 

even if nova were using more mod slots than usual the end result is mp making the game into turkey shoot. that's still overpowered. there's no getting around the end result. if it trivialises content out of line with the other spells of other frames, it must be brought into line for the sake of making an interesting game

 

and no, there's no 'just not playing nova'. a game balance is made of interconnecting elements, and one element offsetting balance will affect others

[thisbandisawful]

it may remove all practical risk therefore challenge therefore interest from most content in the game but hey you need to spend like five whole minutes thinking about how to mod it

[Soul.Fire]

Alright, let me give you some idea as to why what you want done to Nova is an all around bad idea, not because I don't like a challenge, but because there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. I do realize that some people like things to be a lot more difficult and a lot rougher than other people, but that's no excuse to force us all to have to deal with things being insanely over the top infuriating and rage-quit inducing. I have spent a lot of time, forma, and energy on modding my Nova for maximum damage and power, and while yes, at the start of a very long t4 survival she literally chews everything up and spits them back out, there is no defense against a bombard that can shoot you through a solid wall, no matter how good you are and no matter how many Frost bubbles your best friend puts between you, the wall and the bombard. It also only takes about 10 to 15 minutes before everything is suddenly amped up to where, not only will one explosion only kill 2 to three enemies at a time by itself, but you will empty an entire clip from a fully modded and forma'd Boltor Prime into the first enemy before anything dies. True, Antimatter Drop will counter this somewhat, but only to a point and not enough to kill more than 5 or 6 enemies at once. The slowing power of the Molecular Prime is used to keep them spread out and to keep them from coming at you in so condensed a group that no matter what you do, you and all your squad are doomed to die. The people who are saying "Well, don't play Nova," "She's fine," "Leave her alone," and "No more nerfs" are correct, if it's too powerful for you then take off a few mods or don't play her at all, I'm sure it would be just as much of a challenge if you just take the power mods Off. We've had too many nerfs, Trinity was nerfed because some 'hard-core' guy who "wanted a challenge" decided for whatever reason that she was OP and therefore her Blessing no longer grants any period of immunity to damage whatsoever, even though it was useful and even necessary at times for picking up someone who was bleeding out. Frost was nerfed as well, Avalanche has always been abysmally useless past wave 15 in a t1 defense, and then they added both hit points and a timer to Snow Globe, on top of it allowing all kinds of damage through it to you and the cryopod. Ember was nerfed so badly that I barely even survive one rotation of t2 survival before my squad is picking me up off the floor thanks but no thanks to the drastic energy drain, idiotically short duration, pathetic reach and inability to hit more than three enemies at a time, and ultimately pitiful damage output of World on Fire that we have now. Quite honestly, I have no idea why they made it a toggle skill because of all those factors, it makes no sense and it is quite frankly a load of bs. And while I do realize that that skill was a royal pain to get hit by in PVP, PVP is also the only place in the entire game where this particular nerf, or any of these other nerfs for that matter, should ever have taken place. PVP is not PVE, and they should be treated entirely differently. The fact that Nova can defend herself and solo things if she wants to should be enough for people, if we get the nerf(nerfs plural you apparently think we should get), then Nova will be nothing but another damsel in distress frame that no one wants to play and no one wants in their squad because everyone will think she's useless and underpowered. It's not fair and it's not right to penalize people because they simply like to survive for longer than 5 minutes in a void mission without getting their asses kicked. There is no issue here, you're making one up where there isn't one. The whole point of this game is to see how strong a frame you can build, how good you can make your powers, how well you can do in as high a level mission as you can get to. It's not to rage-quit because your powers won't work on anything above level 40, it's not to feel discouraged because everything you attempt ends in failure. While yeah, we may like a challenge and even need a challenge at times, we also need a win and a feeling of being just a little bit powerful, because otherwise it just gets discouraging and frustrating and pointless and then it becomes time to quit. I say again, nerfs like what you're suggesting, and what happened to Trinity, Frost and Ember, are not fair, period, at all, ever. Nova is my favorite frame, Ember was my second favorite, and now, because of a nerf that should never, ever have been implemented anywhere other than PVP, I feel like it was a personal slap in the face every time I even think about playing her. If this nerf, this atrocity, ever happens to Nova, it will be a very, very bad thing.

 

On a sidenote, the people who keep insisting that other frames have nothing to do with Nova and the discussion here need to realize that these other frames have everything to do with it. First it was 'tweak this power and make it not a power on this one frame, just this one,' but then it became two and then it became three, and before you know it, if DE listens to everyone who has a purely personal preference issue with this or that frame, none of them will be worth playing on any planets other than Earth, Mercury and Venus, and you'll still be wanting nerfs, enemy buffs and challenge on beginner planets. The game will become unplayable. It never happens all at once, but I've played so many games that started off good like this one only to have everything unfairly nerfed to the point of being a useless endeavor in futility that I'm sick to death of having to quit a fun game because some people want everything to be rigged sky high in the enemies' favor. And this, this lunacy on the forums is how it starts. I won't even bother to say I told you so if this happens to Warframe, but don't expect any condolences either, I'll go have a little funeral for my frames in peace and quiet.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Soul.Fire

[DaveC]

Simple, if you don't like Novas, don't revive them when they go down. I also agree that Nova is way out of balance, always has been. The arguments people make about "glass cannon" etc.. are complete rubbish, but that won't stop them making them. It's not that they don't understand math/gameplay...... they simply, don't want to understand it.

 

I remember when Nova was even worse and almost every 2nd frame played was Nova. It was so bad, I strongly suspected DE of implementing code to spread the Novas out into 1 per team of 4 (if possible), to avoid getting 4 Novas in a team. I also remember teams when you did get 2,3 or even 4 Novas....even they knew it was so bad that the duplicates would leave.

 

I would love to see some open stats from DE on % play each frame gets in various situations (as teams of 2 or more). Overall, by mission type and solo. I think it would make interesting reading.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Theres so much irony....

 

You were the one saying nerfs were everywhere

 

Ive only used the first page of this feedback section as an example of why you were overreacting and you are

 

Now stop for a moment and listen

 

The big issue with Nova is her 4 has Nyx tier CC with Ember,Saryn tier damage and Mirage tier power range without LoS on top of double damage all wrapped up in one and still only hurts one of her powers heavily

 

Theres an issue there

As a casual player who values group dynamics, I admit that I've had those "whoa" moments, while progressing towards end-game, when a Nova already comes in and creates a "paradigm shift" in gameplay.

On one hand, I'm ok with it. Every game needs a "power MVP" type. However, I don't know where the line is. If she acts like a quarterback in football, and everyone else feels that gameplay is enhanced within the confines of their role in the 4-man team, that's great. If she does the QB's job, the receiver's job, and doesn't need an offensive line to protect her, then that is a different story.

Which is it?

[Soul.Fire]

As a casual player who values group dynamics, I admit that I've had those "whoa" moments, while progressing towards end-game, when a Nova already comes in and creates a "paradigm shift" in gameplay.

On one hand, I'm ok with it. Every game needs a "power MVP" type. However, I don't know where the line is. If she acts like a quarterback in football, and everyone else feels that gameplay is enhanced within the confines of their role in the 4-man team, that's great. If she does the QB's job, the receiver's job, and doesn't need an offensive line to protect her, then that is a different story.

Which is it?

I think the problem is people always get teamed with those who like to play like they're in a solo match whether they are or not. What I like to do is run my max power/duration Nova, my friends' Mag Prime and Vauban, and my husband's Oberon. I'm doing pretty damn good if I get two or three kills with that squad, because between Bastille, Shield Polarize and Reckoning I don't have to even raise my gun. I get to sit back and giggle like a shoolgirl again while my husband and our buddies make an endless amount of wonderful explosive destruction. And really, that only happens on lower levels, anything past wave 30 on Tower 1 and wave 10 on Tower 4 and we have to pay attention otherwise we fail miserably and usually it turns into a full-squad-wipe if we don't watch what we're doing. She should absolutely not be nerfed just because some people like to be glory hogs.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Soul.Fire

[Omni_Omega]

The eternal issue of nerfing something in Warframe is the backlash involved, and nerfing Nova of all things? She was given a prime early because of her mass popularity, nerfing her now would be DE's equivalent of World War 3

[Soul.Fire]

The eternal issue of nerfing something in Warframe is the backlash involved, and nerfing Nova of all things? She was given a prime early because of her mass popularity, nerfing her now would be DE's equivalent of World War 3

That and it would induce a lot of people to completely quit the game.

[.Re-light.]

I honestly have no idea who youre talking about....

 

Very short memory

 

Really??? You admited on his topic "Bring back IS Facet.... " feeding him for almost 10 pages with nonsensical arguments just to keep him going? That topic ended up having some good ideas on the end, not helped by you or OP but the back and forth, never going anywhere discussion made me un follow it, that made almost 85% of the mammoth 45+ pages it has.

 

 You post "Irrelevant" way too much. Arguing for the sake of arguing without any meaningful idea from your part, except general position and then acting like a wooden lawyer against anyone who has different position.

 

 

On topic and discuss this idea:

 

Mprime stays the same, but doesn't work on enemies with shields?? Including units that have shields thanks to drones.

Edited January 27, 2015 by ReLight13

[[DE]Drew]

Please, remain on topic (I see a few posts getting a little personal). This discussion has some interesting points, and I don't want to lock it due to a few derails. 

[PerishedFraud]

If you want a good argument you have to show how and why nova isnt overpowered