Warframe's Ultimate Killing Machine Radial Javelin

[Celestias]

If you're calling him a farming tool then you were no true Excalibur player. You've probably never seen his old high-end move "Rain of Javelins" at that.

 

For a game revolving around playstyle preference of the player you people spend a god aweful amount of time complaining about the way other people play when you don't agree with the playstyle they like or use.

 

While I myself have done this method of farming before with excalibur it was during Vivergate when Rep farming like that felt necessary to get anywhere with syndicates. Outside of the interception missions where excalibur uses a very squishy and energy intensive build to even become this "farming tool" as you like calling him, players use him normally, so you're all complaining about quite the exclusive scenario.

 

Before this playing as Excalibur pre-buff at any time was tough if you weren't packing for radial blind. Now his Abiltiy Kit feels as it should.

 

Edit: Since someone stated RJ removes gameplay interaction -> Please do name a more satisfying feeling than pinning some low to mid level hordes to walls and ceilings with an ULTIMATE Ability. Enter room -> RJ to clear away the fodder -> Guns blazing on the survivors!

 

Edit 2: ninja-checked

Edited February 9, 2015 by Celestias

[RIOT]

in this thread.

 

OP is telling us that with team work,  excal rad jav is "OP".

 

easy fix. make RJ have a line of sight targeting system.

 

hmmm.. wait didn't they try that during viver fever.

 

also did anyone else notice that both of OPs T4D 30 waves and t4 Intercep 8 round pictures have the same numbers I.E rewards. credits. STATS

Edited February 9, 2015 by RIOTx

[RealPandemonium]

Tower 4 Defense Pics

No damage scaling. Enjoy!

 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2u5yh4p&s=8#.VNk30_nF98F

Wave 10 1469

 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2j0jpmt&s=8#.VNk4nvnF98E

Wave 17 1469,1562

 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=296onq1&s=8#.VNk4P_nF98E

Wave 25 1469, 1562

 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=mi1do7&s=8#.VNk49PnF98E

Wave 30 1562

Uh, you're not hitting armored targets in those cases.

[(PSN)AwkwardMonkers]

Uh Ok, what is that supposed to prove? Most of your pictures are flashes of light with a few numbers popping up.

 

Not to mention you've not stated the group composition. The Aura's you've brought to the match. Oh and is that a Nova MP blast I see going off? Oh look at that, you've got damage magnification from a Nova, so no, it still doesn't merit that Radial Javelin is an overpowered ability. Again, damage magnifiers aren't a means to saying the ability is OP, neither that those damage magnifiers are bad, it simply shows that synergy works to overcome obstacles.

 

Their random players not associated with me. They brought whatever they wanted. For you to refuse those constant numbers every wave shows the dis belief. Simply you gotta try it yourself. No matter how many pictures I show it will never be good enough reason to believe, partially a reason why I didn't put pictures in the first place. 

[(PSN)AwkwardMonkers]

If you're calling him a farming tool then you were no true Excalibur player. You've probably never seen his old high-end move "Rain of Javelins" at that.

 

For a game revolving around playstyle preference of the player you people spend a god aweful amount of time complaining about the way other people play when you don't agree with the playstyle they like or use.

 

While I myself have done this method of farming before with excalibur it was during Vivergate when Rep farming like that felt necessary to get anywhere with syndicates. Outside of the interception missions where excalibur uses a very squishy and energy intensive build to even become this "farming tool" as you like calling him, players use him normally, so you're all complaining about quite the exclusive scenario.

 

Before this playing as Excalibur pre-buff at any time was tough if you weren't packing for radial blind. Now his Abiltiy Kit feels as it should.

 

Edit: Since someone stated RJ removes gameplay interaction -> Please do name a more satisfying feeling than pinning some low to mid level hordes to walls and ceilings with an ULTIMATE Ability. Enter room -> RJ to clear away the fodder -> Guns blazing on the survivors!

 

Edit 2: ninja-checked

 

I use him on a daily basis in Warframe to spam Javelin in everything I do primarily survival, defense and interceptions. Before the Radial Blind patches I use Excalibur to primarily do tower 4 survivals. Ever been to tower 4 interception rep farming? I do it constantly because it is possible, with the power and range of Radial javelin.

[(PSN)AwkwardMonkers]

in this thread.

 

OP is telling us that with team work,  excal rad jav is "OP".

 

easy fix. make RJ have a line of sight targeting system.

 

hmmm.. wait didn't they try that during viver fever.

 

also did anyone else notice that both of OPs T4D 30 waves and t4 Intercep 8 round pictures have the same numbers I.E rewards. credits. STATS

 

You can find faults with everything. They were different pictures because of the different players simple, however I made a mistake on one of them I uploaded the same picture twice. Gotta retake another tower4 interception picture. You can judge the number of waves by the number of kills if you played long enough. 

Edited February 10, 2015 by (PS4)AwkwardMonkers

[Saryn]

Why do people even attempt to argue about being overpowered in a PVE game? More power is good. However, if you're complaining about PVP, which clearly isn't the case, that would be another story.

[RealPandemonium]

Why do people even attempt to argue about being overpowered in a PVE game? More power is good. However, if you're complaining about PVP, which clearly isn't the case, that would be another story.

DE should just make RJ do 99999999999 damage and cost 1 energy so that we can just get the inconvenience of gameplay out of the way and focus on our rewards (perhaps more cosmetic effects for our ultimates?.)

[AlphaHorseman]

DE should just make RJ do 99999999999 damage and cost 1 energy so that we can just get the inconvenience of gameplay out of the way and focus on our rewards (perhaps more cosmetic effects for our ultimates?.)

Oh don't be such a cynic. You know full well that isn't what the poster meant. RJ isn't even as powerful alone as the OP makes it out to be. It's a handy ability, could use some tune ups, but for now it's functioning as intended.

[Paradoxbomb]

I think the only real advantage Radial Javelin has is it's long range. It's no more powerful nor spammable than many other ults otherwise. The main issue is that ult spamming is a viable thing in general, rather than an issue for Excalibur personally.

[MechaKnight]

I think the only real advantage Radial Javelin has is it's long range. It's no more powerful nor spammable than many other ults otherwise. The main issue is that ult spamming is a viable thing in general, rather than an issue for Excalibur personally.

 

The ability system is completely backwards in regards to radial damage spam. It should be the case that single-target or other limited abilities should be more effective than mindless abilities. It serves to reward players for paying attention and being skillful, only falling back on the easy-mode option when they're stick in a panic spot.

 

That's how it should be, but this is not the case.

 

Slash Dash does 500 damage base, but Radial Javelin does 1000 in a huge radius through all walls with unlimited targets. What should generally have only been a panic-button stun and trash sweeper is objectively a better choice than the precision ability.

 

Let's try a simple and modern example. What if flash bangs in shooter games doubled as frag grenades? That's overpowered--it'd kill anyone it touches in range, and blind everyone else looking at it. Hence why these are different grenades altogether.

 

What about something more passive? In many fighting games, dodging and attacking are not the same thing. Sometimes a dodge can do damage, but you have much better choices for dealing damage than dodging. That said, it would be very broken to repeatedly dodge until you kill all opponents on the map. Now imagine if you can dodge fast enough to incapacitate a whole room with this mechanic. If you stacked damage on top of that, the targets would die without any combat involved-you keep dodging until they're dead.

 

Let's go back to Warframe, but try to use an enemy for perspective. The Grineer Powerfist is broken is such a way that their quick attack is somehow more damaging than their charge attack. The result is that long wind up time barely tickles, but their quick jab is suddenly lethal. That's just plain broken to have its spam ability be more damaging that its slow charged one. It took more focus for that grineer to wind up its fist for the weak hit, yet is much less effective in the end. If powerfists were smart they'd jab us to death instead of trying to use wind-up punches. Similarly, players who attempt to use skill in this game feel defeated when radial spam is objectively the best way to play if the warframe you are using has a damage radial.

 

Let's take a more classical game example for balance. Tanks in class-based MMOs have a tendency to have a quick radial ability to attract attention while dealing little to no damage. The idea is you help your team by becoming the distraction, similar to a stun. To deal damage, you use your other single-target abilities.

 

So let's tune this to be as broken as Warframe's radial spam. What if the tank aggro ability dealt damage that was stronger than any other attack said player was capable of performing? What if the radial distraction ability did more damage than any other attack in the player's arsenal? There is no point in using the other abilities when you can both damage and incapacitate mindlessly in the most efficient way your kit allows, because everything you want is on only one ability.

 

Also, considering tanks in these MMOs are supposed to hit targets before the rest of the team to distract them, said radial spam is expected. That said, if the ability dealt any appreciable damage, this player would probably be the top damage dealer on the team. In the extreme case of being overpowered to enemies like all non-endless missions in Warframe, said player removes all gameplay from his teammates by killing everything before anyone else could touch it.

 

The above examples are simply meant to demonstrate how absolutely ludicrous it is to give radial abilities damage and support at the same time, especially damage that is better than any other damage ability in the same kit, along with unlimited target potential.

 

This can be solved a variety of ways, like buffing the single target abilities to be stronger than mindless infinite target radials, limiting radials, or other option. Whatever option is selected, the intended result is the same: limited skill-based abilities should be more profitable than mindless spam, and said spam should only be effective in saving yourself from trouble. Like tanks trying to rip aggro, or counter-terrorists throwing heaps of flashbangs before entering doorways, or Batman dodging between targets until you find a safe window to actually deal damage. It's simply common sense to never make your panic/evasion ability take on the additional role of being your top damage-dealing tactic.

Edited February 10, 2015 by MechaKnight

[(PSN)theelix]

So what you're really saying is, Banshee's Sonar is the problem and not Excalibur's Radial Javelin.

I feel like I've seen you post a "So what you're really saying is..." Before. And I found it just as funny with how true it is. 

 

Back to OP. 

Sure, it can get the kills... 

Doesn't have as much damage as most abilities, though. Radial Javelin has more range than most other abilities, though. 

 

 

The thing that really no one realizes, though, is that it's the TEAMWORK that makes it so powerful. 

I mean, radial Javelin could scale nearly infinitely with an Ember, Volt and Trinity. 

Energy and two damage buffs. (Augments) But... That is to be said about ALL abilities in the game. 

 

Banshee's sonar can.... <- That's teamwork. 

Full Corrosive projection... <- You mean you and three other people? 

Also, that four second stun, which has an easy fix... (tie the stun to Natural Talent. The stun is so that enemies don't kill you during your ridiculous animation. So those who use NT should have that stun reduced appropriately) should not be removed. 

The range is fine in proportion to the damage. I mean, it does less damage than most abilities, doesn't it? 

 

I know this isn't a nerf thread. It's just that everyone says RJ is just so powerful but in reality... It's only good on the map tiles that allow it to be so good. 

[(PSN)AwkwardMonkers]

The ability system is completely backwards in regards to radial damage spam. It should be the case that single-target or other limited abilities should be more effective than mindless abilities. It serves to reward players for paying attention and being skillful, only falling back on the easy-mode option when they're stick in a panic spot.

 

That's how it should be, but this is not the case.

 

Slash Dash does 500 damage base, but Radial Javelin does 1000 in a huge radius through all walls with unlimited targets. What should generally have only been a panic-button stun and trash sweeper is objectively a better choice than the precision ability.

 

Let's try a simple and modern example. What if flash bangs in shooter games doubled as frag grenades? That's overpowered--it'd kill anyone it touches in range, and blind everyone else looking at it. Hence why these are different grenades altogether.

 

What about something more passive? In many fighting games, dodging and attacking are not the same thing. Sometimes a dodge can do damage, but you have much better choices for dealing damage than dodging. That said, it would be very broken to repeatedly dodge until you kill all opponents on the map. Now imagine if you can dodge fast enough to incapacitate a whole room with this mechanic. If you stacked damage on top of that, the targets would die without any combat involved-you keep dodging until they're dead.

 

Let's go back to Warframe, but try to use an enemy for perspective. The Grineer Powerfist is broken is such a way that their quick attack is somehow more damaging than their charge attack. The result is that long wind up time barely tickles, but their quick jab is suddenly lethal. That's just plain broken to have its spam ability be more damaging that its slow charged one. It took more focus for that grineer to wind up its fist for the weak hit, yet is much less effective in the end. If powerfists were smart they'd jab us to death instead of trying to use wind-up punches. Similarly, players who attempt to use skill in this game feel defeated when radial spam is objectively the best way to play if the warframe you are using has a damage radial.

 

So let's tune this to be as broken as Warframe's radial spam. What if the tank aggro ability dealt damage that was stronger than any other attack said player was capable of performing? What if the radial distraction ability did more damage than any other attack in the player's arsenal? There is no point in using the other abilities when you can both damage and incapacitate mindlessly in the most efficient way your kit allows, because everything you want is on only one ability.

 

Also, considering tanks in these MMOs are supposed to hit targets before the rest of the team to distract them, said radial spam is expected. That said, if the ability dealt any appreciable damage, this player would probably be the top damage dealer on the team. In the extreme case of being overpowered to enemies like all non-endless missions in Warframe, said player removes all gameplay from his teammates by killing everything before anyone else could touch it.

 

The above examples are simply meant to demonstrate how absolutely ludicrous it is to give radial abilities damage and support at the same time, especially damage that is better than any other damage ability in the same kit, along with unlimited target potential.

 

This can be solved a variety of ways, like buffing the single target abilities to be stronger than mindless infinite target radials, limiting radials, or other option. Whatever option is selected, the intended result is the same: limited skill-based abilities should be more profitable than mindless spam, and said spam should only be effective in saving yourself from trouble. Like tanks trying to rip aggro, or counter-terrorists throwing heaps of flashbangs before entering doorways, or Batman dodging between targets until you find a safe window to actually deal damage. It's simply common sense to never make your panic/evasion ability take on the additional role of being your top damage-dealing tactic.

 

everything you want is on only one ability.

 

Slash Dash's cast speed is to slow, whereas tower 4 level 30 enemies can hit us with 3 bullets in 1 second we usually die while casting it. 

 

Excalibur's Radial Blind got "nerfed" hard to a point a two second stun (Radial Javelin) is way better. For example, when theirs a crowd of enemies around the player and they use Radial Blind in the air it does not blind the enemies in the back, behind cover or obstacles and behind other enemies. With all those objects obscuring our Radial Blind, in mind we can only blind between 3-7 enemies usually because the enemies are all over the place and not right in front of the player. With blinding only 3-7 enemies, the enemies behind them usually will one shoot us or shoot us a lot to a point where we almost die.

 

Super Jump same concept with Slash Dash, while we cast the ability enemies have a good chance to kill us if they have a lock on us and were extremely vulnerable when we land. 1 second to get up will cost us all our health. 

 

Radial Javelin combined with Radial Blind ability is the best choice when doing a blind making Radial Blind obsolete. Not to mention I can get most damage and most kills with Radial Javelin in any mission. I have versed against my friends many times who are also very good with Miasma and the Radial Javelin wins every single time because of the range, how long it can last, survive ability and efficiency are greater than Miasma. Don't take my word for it equip my build, then whatever build you guys want with Miasma. End mission round, how many packs you throw down for miasma, how many kills you get and damage wise, I am very confident that my build will beat it. No matter what mission.

[(PSN)AwkwardMonkers]

I feel like I've seen you post a "So what you're really saying is..." Before. And I found it just as funny with how true it is. 

 

Back to OP. 

Sure, it can get the kills... 

Doesn't have as much damage as most abilities, though. Radial Javelin has more range than most other abilities, though. 

 

 

The thing that really no one realizes, though, is that it's the TEAMWORK that makes it so powerful. 

I mean, radial Javelin could scale nearly infinitely with an Ember, Volt and Trinity. 

Energy and two damage buffs. (Augments) But... That is to be said about ALL abilities in the game. 

 

Banshee's sonar can.... <- That's teamwork. 

Full Corrosive projection... <- You mean you and three other people? 

Also, that four second stun, which has an easy fix... (tie the stun to Natural Talent. The stun is so that enemies don't kill you during your ridiculous animation. So those who use NT should have that stun reduced appropriately) should not be removed. 

The range is fine in proportion to the damage. I mean, it does less damage than most abilities, doesn't it? 

 

I know this isn't a nerf thread. It's just that everyone says RJ is just so powerful but in reality... It's only good on the map tiles that allow it to be so good. 

 

I have only 1 thing to say. Use my Excalibur Radial Javelin build in any mission vs. a Saryn's Miasma. I am very confident my build will win in kills, damage and energy packs used. Play it like any player who was just spamming javelins or miasma, don't even fire of your gun. I prefer to use my build on tower 4 missions such as endless defense, survivals, and interceptions. 

 

My build is on the previous post's. Enjoy you will not regret it. I admit I was skeptical taking it to a 2 hour survival, but when my friend came out of it with the highest damage and kills I was bought over. :)

[Deviantis]

Radial javelin only seems strong because you can count the damage. Whereas nova priming the entire T4D tileset or banshee making a resonance rave is basically infinite, never mind mag having a scaling nuke.

Radial javelin is just ez, even peacemaker is harder to use.

[(PSN)AwkwardMonkers]

When high rounds are concerned damage and the ability to kill stuff is all that matters. Slowing them down is okay but not to useful since in most survivals players need to constantly kill to get life support. Slowing them down and making their bodies disappear in 5 seconds is counter productive in survivals.

 

Banshee's sonar is a crazy as bananas. Its a near perfect frame to use.

 

I'm not to familiar with Peacemaker, but from what I have seen Peacemaker will get players killed because of them being stationary. 

[jmforeman02]

I'll never understand why people prefer Excalibur over Mirage for farming. I have news for you, Prism is better than Radial Javelin in almost every way. Prism does Radial Javelin's damage EVERY SECOND over a longer range and has a Radial Blind effect tied in just for good measure. You can just shoot a Prism straight up so that it bounces up and down over the same spot, and it's like you are doing a Radial Javelin once every second for as long as it lasts for FAR less energy. Excalibur can't even do Radial Javelin once every second.

Edited February 10, 2015 by jmforeman02

[geninrising]

To clarify this point look at the newest by the numbers where they clearly tell exactly what has killed the most enemies in WF over the last month. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/399939-by-the-numbers-warframe-powers/?p=4413024#entry4413024

 

Radial Javelin is clearly the killer of choice. Hence our fear that p42w is much too prevalent and needs a serious look and not the half-hearted attempt that was made this past November. 

[AlphaHorseman]

To clarify this point look at the newest by the numbers where they clearly tell exactly what has killed the most enemies in WF over the last month. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/399939-by-the-numbers-warframe-powers/?p=4413024#entry4413024

 

Radial Javelin is clearly the killer of choice. Hence our fear that p42w is much too prevalent and needs a serious look and not the half-hearted attempt that was made this past November. 

Oh please, so it's gotten the most kills. That doesn't mean it's a bad ability that's bad for the game. We've already debunked and showed that there are very few places where this can actually be useful for nuking a map. Defense and Interception were the places. Hence why people go to those maps, Vivergate, Draco, Stephano, and so on and so forth. So the ability can kill things on the Star Chart when enemies aren't up for the damage output of an end-game or higher level build, that's the case with any damage dealing power modded for damage higher than the map they're fighting on.

 

It isn't too prevalent when it's only useful in a small portion of content (two mission types). It doesn't need a serious look because DE is already adding in enemies, changing up the maps like Viver, it was the first to change after Vivergate, and it isn't going to be the last. So Excal players like using RJ, doesn't mean that it's a bad ability. If anything, it's alright where it is, lacks a bit of CC, but could use a buff.

[Ryjeon]

I just think the idea of different warframes is to promote different playstyles. If Excalibur and Saryn are used in exactly the same way by the vast majority of the people playing them then that looks like a problem. Thematically it doesn't really make sense for either of them to be completely passive ranged nukers. So I think the power in their kits needs to be re-organized to promote a more active playstyle that utilizes the rest of their abilities and satisfies their presentation as frontline fighters.

 

That said I think the overall playstyle of a room nuker should still exist in the game. I just don't think it should be our frontline fighters.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Ryjeon

[geninrising]

Oh please, so it's gotten the most kills. That doesn't mean it's a bad ability that's bad for the game. We've already debunked and showed that there are very few places where this can actually be useful for nuking a map. Defense and Interception were the places. Hence why people go to those maps, Vivergate, Draco, Stephano, and so on and so forth. So the ability can kill things on the Star Chart when enemies aren't up for the damage output of an end-game or higher level build, that's the case with any damage dealing power modded for damage higher than the map they're fighting on.

 

It isn't too prevalent when it's only useful in a small portion of content (two mission types). It doesn't need a serious look because DE is already adding in enemies, changing up the maps like Viver, it was the first to change after Vivergate, and it isn't going to be the last. So Excal players like using RJ, doesn't mean that it's a bad ability. If anything, it's alright where it is, lacks a bit of CC, but could use a buff.

Not the point man. The point is clarifying that energy is not properly gating ultimate abilities as has been stated by multitudes of players time and time again as well as DE themselves. Ultimate skills are simply proving via their use the point we have all stated many times.

[AlphaHorseman]

Not the point man. The point is clarifying that energy is not properly gating ultimate abilities as has been stated by multitudes of players time and time again as well as DE themselves. Ultimate skills are simply proving via their use the point we have all stated many times.

Oh energy is gated just fine, in your opinion it is not, but DE designed them that way, they have given us the tools to bend the obstacles one way or the other. The downside to lowering one obstacle is making another bigger. DE themselves have given us the means to build as we will, but are also giving us (clunky) threats through Nullifiers and other enemy types, after whatever they stated after many many months ago.

 

And what, exactly, is the point?

[vaugahn]

The recent by the numbers was very interesting.

Ability spam is no longer a defensible playstyle. It's very clearly detrimental to the game.

[AlphaHorseman]

The recent by the numbers was very interesting.

Ability spam is no longer a defensible playstyle. It's very clearly detrimental to the game.

Oh and why is that? Because you don't like it? Simply disliking a play style does not invalidate it. If it does well or is widely used, that doesn't mean it is a bad play style.

[MechaKnight]

Oh and why is that? Because you don't like it? Simply disliking a play style does not invalidate it. If it does well or is widely used, that doesn't mean it is a bad play style.

"Play style". The problem is spamming one ability is far less of a play style than using all four. The problem is, using the other abilities isn't worth it because spamming an infinite target radial with infinite x-ray in a large range is exponentially better than using anything else. Radial Javelin has damage and stun. The other abilities are more limited in purpose. #1 is movement, #2 is very limited stun, and #3 is some form of evasion. Ability #4 however carries more damage than any other ability, stuns without limitations, and you don't worry about evasion if you can stun constantly.

 

Everything is on one ability. This is as much the case for Excalibur as it is for many other warframes. It's unhealthy to the game because all the creative work put into abilities dies when nobody uses them, and developers feel entitled to do things like nerf fusion core rates, make keys harder to get, release ability-immune enemies, and in general expand the grind because they know now that we break the system and we're too stubborn to let them fix the game to be fun and balanced. Their vengeance: overpowered grind.

 

Limiting radials is the absolute easiest option to reverse the trend. It will make other abilities more worthwhile and hopefully persuade developers to go easier on us when grind is considered. The alternative option is expanding the solar system and buffing the other non-radial abilities to be extremely damaging and effective, at which point the content expansion is the only thing able to be played with a potential smidgeon of balance, while the rest of the solar system collapses under a button press of the usual player.

 

Radial spam is unhealthy for the game. We're seeing lots more grind and unfair RNG because of it.

Edited February 10, 2015 by MechaKnight