Loki [And Potentially Ash] Invisibility Nerf (Omg, Here We Go Again)

[SquirmyBurrito]

When did this happen?

 

Mistyped, I corrected it shortly after posting.

 

Okay, that all made sense. And I understand and accept where you're coming from. Maybe I'm looking at it all wrong. Instead of changing the AI/Invisibility, maybe I should be looking to suggest ways to make using stealth with invisi more rewarding...

 

Well, I think my part of the argument has concluded to side with you, thanks to Parre_Akais. You put up a reasonable argument so GG for sticking with it AND for not sounding like a broken record :P

 

alrighty

 

Quote where I said it was MEANT to be an escape skill. I said what I use it for, I don't need to cite any source other than my post to support that claim. You're the one trying to speak for the devs. I am NOT going to be made to provide sources for a claim I didn't make. I said I use it as an escape skill. 

there you go, never once did you say it was your opinion or that was what you used it for, you clearly state its purpose is entirely an escape tool, objectively as well. you did not state I use it as escape tool or its entire purpose in MY build is an escape tool. so cite a source that states that is its purpose. you can break stealth while invisible, it happens in other games, in crysis you cloak but upon executing a stealth kill you temporarily decloak or upon firing your weapon and it has the same mechanics you are just invisible your sound isnt muffled or anything. like i said it is preposterous and nothing you have put forward dismisses that, you still put it across that you main loki so you dont want him touched at all, i do believe on previous threads you did claim that you were for loki changes when we were talking about rhino months aback so why when change is proposed now you claim he is ok where he is? its just a case of you dont want your favorite frame touched.

 

You asked, and I answered. I didn't need to say 'I use it for-' because you were the one asking me what I use it for. This isn't middle school, I don't have to include part of the question in my answer to said question. You're expected to be able to keep track of your own questions. 

"blahblahblah if you don't use invisibility for sneaking, what do you use it for?" It acts as a quick escape tool. That is kinda its entire purpose [in my build]". Now take your requests for sources and go away, I did not make a statement on developer intention because (unlike you) I do not have delusions of grandeur. You can not break stealth while invisible if being invisible is inherently being stealthy. Other games tend to implement invisibility abilities that do not allow you to kill while using them. This game has no such restriction. It isn't preposterous, and I need not prove your unsubstantiated claim wrong. The fact that I main loki is completely irrelevant unless you're trying to imply that what I'm saying is invalid because I'm biased. I main loki, but I'm not blind. Loki changes=/=Loki nerfs. Tweaks that do not upset the balance of a frame are fine by me. And Loki could use some. I could make an entire thread on Loki tweaks that I think he desparately needs. However, I do not think he needs to be nerfed. He is fine as is, but fine doesn't equal perfect. Many frames are fine, few (if any) are perfect.

 

You pretty much claimed to know its purpose here.

 

 

In some sense that can be seen as you claiming to know what it does and how its intended to be used. By claiming to know its purpose you are sorta doing what your accusing him of doing. As no one but the devs know its purpose to an absolute extent. Saying thats what its used for wouldnt imply that you knew exactly what its meant to do. It would reflect that thats what people use it for not what its purpose is meant to do.  As purposes definition is:

1.

the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists

 

 

He said purpose too so you can call him on it, but if you want him to cite a source for him saying purpose so must you. In that sense you and him both claimed to know what DE intended for it. So if he has to cite something you should as well after all thats only fair. Where he did give something you haven't really cited anything. (weather you consider what he provided proof or not he still did play along and show you something that can be interpreted that way)

 

Though I should point out the fact that you said "entire purpose",  which means it can be used for that and only that. Which in this case is wrong because escaping is only one of its purposes. You can escape, you can kill with melee gaining bonus damage/even more sneak attack damage bonus, and you can shoot from afar with it. That's 3-4 purposes it can serve therefore escaping is not its entire purpose.

 

IRL mechanics dont exactly follow the same logic and reasoning as game mechanics as game mechanics can differ from game to game. As if we were to take a IRL argument that would mean people know said technology exists. And ofc would have some form of counter to combat people who use said technology. So any IRL life argument cant hold too much ground in these situations. The same can be said if you want to claim the person is the only one who has it. But again concepts of real life tend to hold only a small part in games where fantasy concepts are added. After all who the heck lives after taking xxx amount of bullets and gets to keep running around like its all ok cuz you found some healing kit. o.o logic for RL falls off at some point especially when it comes to things that do not exist IRL.

 

No, I didn't.

 

No it can't. I answered a question asking what I use it for. I did not declare that the developer intent was that it be used as an escape tool. My use of 'entire purpose' was referring to its entire purpose IN MY BUILD. Its only use in my build is an escape tool. That's it. Hence why I mentioned that when asked about my usage of the ability.

 

I brought up IRL because that is the entire premise of the opposition's argument.

 

And for future reference, here is the question that I answered "if you dont want to play stealthy then why are you using invisibility? the whole point of being invisible is to be stealthy."

 

As Ash and Loki I kill lots and lots of enemies with guns while invisible.  At first I thought the reason they weren't shooting back was because my weapons were silenced, but then I realized I forgot to equip the hush mod on my latron wraith and they still weren't shooting back except when stealth wears off.

 

So yeah... it's pretty powerful.

 

Go try to facetank a T4 bombard's missile while invisible and then come back and tell me about how powerful it is.

[Holeypaladin]

 

Go try to facetank a T4 bombard's missile while invisible and then come back and tell me about how powerful it is.

I don't have to.  They don't even shoot at me.  Ever.  I can walk up in their face and put three shots in their skull with a loud weapon and they don't shoot back.

 

Unless I lose track of the countdown and am still in their face when it wears off, they don't even shoot.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[sanj66]

Mistyped, I corrected it shortly after posting.

 

 

alrighty

 

 

You asked, and I answered. I didn't need to say 'I use it for-' because you were the one asking me what I use it for. This isn't middle school, I don't have to include part of the question in my answer to said question. You're expected to be able to keep track of your own questions. 

"blahblahblah if you don't use invisibility for sneaking, what do you use it for?" It acts as a quick escape tool. That is kinda its entire purpose [in my build]". Now take your requests for sources and go away, I did not make a statement on developer intention because (unlike you) I do not have delusions of grandeur. You can not break stealth while invisible if being invisible is inherently being stealthy. Other games tend to implement invisibility abilities that do not allow you to kill while using them. This game has no such restriction. It isn't preposterous, and I need not prove your unsubstantiated claim wrong. The fact that I main loki is completely irrelevant unless you're trying to imply that what I'm saying is invalid because I'm biased. I main loki, but I'm not blind. Loki changes=/=Loki nerfs. Tweaks that do not upset the balance of a frame are fine by me. And Loki could use some. I could make an entire thread on Loki tweaks that I think he desparately needs. However, I do not think he needs to be nerfed. He is fine as is, but fine doesn't equal perfect. Many frames are fine, few (if any) are perfect.

 

 

No, I didn't.

 

No it can't. I answered a question asking what I use it for. I did not declare that the developer intent was that it be used as an escape tool. My use of 'entire purpose' was referring to its entire purpose IN MY BUILD. Its only use in my build is an escape tool. That's it. Hence why I mentioned that when asked about my usage of the ability.

 

I brought up IRL because that is the entire premise of the opposition's argument.

 

And for future reference, here is the question that I answered "if you dont want to play stealthy then why are you using invisibility? the whole point of being invisible is to be stealthy."

 

 

Go try to facetank a T4 bombard's missile while invisible and then come back and tell me about how powerful it is.

you still made an objective comment and now cant back it up, no matter how you try to spin it you are caught out and now trying to include in my build, you can get away marginally with the initial sentence but the sentence that says its entire purpose is what makes the difference. changes dont always have to be nerfs but some nerfs are deserved changes, never once did i bring up the reality in my posts so where did you get that? if you use your stealthiness correctly the t4 bombard would not even see you coming to fire, hence you make face tanking irrelevant. you are clearly biased here and everyone sees it, if you can list so many changes why didnt you put some forward already? loki doesnt suffer like other frames from corrupted builds, he can still be quite effective and even mroe effective than other frames using non corrupted builds, even at lower levels, he is not for an advanced player as anyone can build a loki easily even his base skill stats are better than most. 

[SquirmyBurrito]

I don't have to.  They don't even shoot at me.  Ever.  I can walk up in their face and put three shots in their skull with a loud weapon and they don't shoot back.

 

Unless I lose track of the countdown and am still in their face when it wears off, they don't even shoot.

 

The bombard won't shoot directly at you, but it will shoot at your teammates.

 

you still made an objective comment and now cant back it up, no matter how you try to spin it you are caught out and now trying to include in my build, you can get away marginally with the initial sentence but the sentence that says its entire purpose is what makes the difference. changes dont always have to be nerfs but some nerfs are deserved changes, never once did i bring up the reality in my posts so where did you get that? if you use your stealthiness correctly the t4 bombard would not even see you coming to fire, hence you make face tanking irrelevant. you are clearly biased here and everyone sees it, if you can list so many changes why didnt you put some forward already? loki doesnt suffer like other frames from corrupted builds, he can still be quite effective and even mroe effective than other frames using non corrupted builds, even at lower levels, he is not for an advanced player as anyone can build a loki easily even his base skill stats are better than most. 

 

I answered your question and need only my word to back up said answer. Sorry bud but you can't remove my post from its original context and try to twist what I said to suit your purpose. I answered your question. No matter how stealthy you are, a bullet that hits you will still hurt. And being invisible doesn't stop enemies from shooting at other players nor does it prevent you from taking damage in the crossfire. I have suggested some Loki changes in the past. Oh are you asking why I didn't attempt to derail this thread with my own ideas? I figured helping derail it with this asinine argument was bad enough. Loki is harmed by efficiency based corrupted builds just as much (and more in some cases) as every other frame. The only corrupted builds that he isn't harmed by are pure range corrupted builds (as power strength is rarely a consideration). Max duration? Gimps range. Max Range? Harms nothing. Max Efficiency? Hurts Duration. Max Power strength? Get your head checked. Non-corrupted builds on Loki either need primed continuity, or they're going to be incredibly lackluster. I never said Loki was for advanced players. In fact, I have actively railed against that claim. It originally said "Desired by advanced players". His base skill stats are terrible, what are you talking about? 12 second invisibility for 50 energy. 600 EHP decoy for 25 energy and with a duration of 25 seconds. Switch Teleport which is pretty meh when not paired with decoy, and it costs 25 energy. Radial Disarm with a range of 20 meters, a cost of 100 energy, and the ability to deal 500 impact damage to specific enemies. All piled into a frame with low health, shields, and armor. He is a frame that (when used as a caster) gobbles energy. The most popular playstyles for him revolve around using his abilities to keep him alive. Without mods most Loki players are as good as dead.

[Holeypaladin]

The bombard won't shoot directly at you, but it will shoot at your teammates.

 

 

Then don't act like cover for your teammates?

 

But Ash and Loki work best as solo frames, anyway.  Do any mission except a defense as them, and you're essentially invincible so long as you remain invisible, since they don't shoot at you ever.  I feel like you should be required to use a silenced weapon to take full advantage of this invisibility, but you really aren't.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

I pretty much get the feeling that they do. They just can't target you propperly whats kinda intendet.

Just run around cloaked and fire a phage and you'll see what i mean. They permanently turn in your direction and try shooting at you.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Then act like cover for your teammates?

 

But Ash and Loki work best as solo frames, anyway.  Do any mission except a defense as them, and you're essentially invincible so long as you remain invisible, since they don't shoot at you ever.  I feel like you should be required to use a silenced weapon to take full advantage of this invisibility, but you really aren't.

 

Ash, Loki, Limbo, Valkyr, Mesa, Banshee, etc. The list of solo beasts is pretty huge. I completely disagree with the notion that Ash and Loki should be funneled into using specific gear. Punishing players who don't want to use a bow or nerf their weaponry with silencing mods is just not something I can get behind. As it stands, if you shoot unsilenced gear (or harm enemies) while invisible it sets enemies into an alerted status.

 

I was doing some invis testing earlier and I discovered something (possibly a bug) some enemies will constantly track and follow you even when you're invisible. I was being followed around by a Drahk Master and his pets. They wouldn't attack me of course (that's moa behavior) but they wouldn't stop trying to hump my leg. I can post pics if requested, don't really feel like it but I will.

[sanj66]

The bombard won't shoot directly at you, but it will shoot at your teammates.

 

 

I answered your question and need only my word to back up said answer. Sorry bud but you can't remove my post from its original context and try to twist what I said to suit your purpose. I answered your question. No matter how stealthy you are, a bullet that hits you will still hurt. And being invisible doesn't stop enemies from shooting at other players nor does it prevent you from taking damage in the crossfire. I have suggested some Loki changes in the past. Oh are you asking why I didn't attempt to derail this thread with my own ideas? I figured helping derail it with this asinine argument was bad enough. Loki is harmed by efficiency based corrupted builds just as much (and more in some cases) as every other frame. The only corrupted builds that he isn't harmed by are pure range corrupted builds (as power strength is rarely a consideration). Max duration? Gimps range. Max Range? Harms nothing. Max Efficiency? Hurts Duration. Max Power strength? Get your head checked. Non-corrupted builds on Loki either need primed continuity, or they're going to be incredibly lackluster. I never said Loki was for advanced players. In fact, I have actively railed against that claim. It originally said "Desired by advanced players". His base skill stats are terrible, what are you talking about? 12 second invisibility for 50 energy. 600 EHP decoy for 25 energy and with a duration of 25 seconds. Switch Teleport which is pretty meh when not paired with decoy, and it costs 25 energy. Radial Disarm with a range of 20 meters, a cost of 100 energy, and the ability to deal 500 impact damage to specific enemies. All piled into a frame with low health, shields, and armor. He is a frame that (when used as a caster) gobbles energy. The most popular playstyles for him revolve around using his abilities to keep him alive. Without mods most Loki players are as good as dead.

http://goo.gl/5H20Qx 

only power strength suffers there and it isnt quite important on loki anyway. and thats an all round build.

http://goo.gl/NcYZeD

and there a non corrupted build that you still end up with everything on the positive side in very good proportions except lets say the 30% efficiency which still is a postive.

and neither used any primed mods which i dont consider accessible to all players.

 

which frame doesnt do this? rhino with no iron skin or stomp, trinity with no link or blessing, frost with no globe, and the list goes on for every frame in both cases.

[SquirmyBurrito]

http://goo.gl/5H20Qx 

only power strength suffers there and it isnt quite important on loki anyway. and thats an all round build.

http://goo.gl/NcYZeD

and there a non corrupted build that you still end up with everything on the positive side in very good proportions except lets say the 30% efficiency which still is a postive.

and neither used any primed mods which i dont consider accessible to all players.

 

which frame doesnt do this? rhino with no iron skin or stomp, trinity with no link or blessing, frost with no globe, and the list goes on for every frame in both cases.

 

The first link isn't working for me.

 

I dislike all-round builds on Loki. But if that's your thing, cool.

 

That build is going to gobble energy. I'm glad you didn't slot a primed mod in place of a corrupted mod.

 

Valkyr, Rhino, Saryn, Ash, Frost, Zephyr, Oberon, basically any frame that isn't squishy. Rhino without Iron Skin or Stomp is still pretty tanky. Trinity isn't very tanky. Frost is pretty tanky. Loki, Limbo, Nova, and Mirage are some of the only frames that require one of two things to stay alive:

1. Their abilities and lots of energy.

2. Some damage avoiding skills (referring to player skill here).

 

Take a non-noob rhino player and strip them of their energy and they can still survive pretty well. Take a non-noob Loki player and strip them of their energy and they're probably going to die. There is a reason why so many forum-goers were in support of having Loki removed from the starting line-up (beyond that stupid "loki is for advanced players" lie).

[Aeriax]

If you make any sound, enemies become alerted to your new location and will go after that. I am 90% sure that they already do exactly what it is you want to request, and no, it's hardly a nerf, it's common sense.

[SandwitchPrime]

Now i see where DE gets all those ideas to ruin the game more. 

Its not the DE, Its the players. 

Go away with your possibly annoying obviously irritating suggestion. 

and i see why DE did such a crappy job at balancing

 

take your worthless complaints elsewhere.

[PickleMonster21]

and i see why DE did such a crappy job at balancing

 

take your worthless complaints elsewhere.

Some people, right? At least I make an effort to pitch suggestions.

[Rakosta_Kai]

Some people, right? At least I make an effort to pitch suggestions.

You do...

Even though I've given you a bit of a hard time in this thread I respect the basic intent behind it.

 

Frankly, I respect any endeavor to encourage enhancement (the correct term eludes me as it's late) diversification even if it's not the base intent.

 

We, as players, have to find a way to make suggestions that keep it from becoming punitive wherever possible though.

 

I use noise reducing Mods as a matter of general course on most of my weapons when solo unless the content is endless regardless of the frame.

I do it because it gives me attack options... But I wouldn't want another player to feel like they were forced to use them.

 

My big wishes are that the mods were D polarity instead of - and there was one for shotguns.

 

Yes, I know that sounds silly as shotguns are supposed to be noisy...

But they are also supposed to do tons of damage in one shot too. ._.

[PickleMonster21]

Yes, I know that sounds silly as shotguns are supposed to be noisy...

But they are also supposed to do tons of damage in one shot too. ._.

Hey. Last I saw, Call of Duty had silencers on their Shotguns, so it's not an outrageous thought.

[izzatuw]

@HoleyPaladin, Latron Wraith is actually considered a silent weapon lol

[MaverickZero]

@HoleyPaladin, Latron Wraith is actually considered a silent weapon lol

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Latron_Wraith

 

Advantages:

Silent

[sappinmahsentry]

I shot a Vectis while invisible as Loki after relocating myself and I got killed by a barrage of grenades, bullets, and bombard rockets. They already do this, move along.

 

EDIT: This already works with melee units 100% of the time.

Edited February 10, 2015 by sappinmahsentry

[PickleMonster21]

I shot a Vectis while invisible as Loki after relocating myself and I got killed by a barrage of grenades, bullets, and bombard rockets. They already do this, move along.

EDIT: This already works with melee units 100% of the time.

Ha xD They don't already do this. This isn't something I just decided to post for lols. I tested it in-game, which is why I complained about it. Because I didn't think it was fair. Maybe the odd grenade is thrown in your direction but they don't attempt to shoot/melee you if you've relocated after going invisible, and shoot an unsilenced weapon. Edited February 10, 2015 by PickleMonster21

[RLanzinger]

Ha xD They don't already do this. This isn't something I just decided to post for lols. I tested it in-game, which is why I complained about it. Because I didn't think it was fair. Maybe the odd grenade is thrown in your direction but they don't attempt to shoot/melee you if you've relocated after going invisible, and shoot an unsilenced weapon.

 

Not really Pickle, I can call you Pickle ?... I have made a capture lvl 3 to truly see a solo Grinner actions :

-I start going Invisible and shoot (With Strun Wraith) just next to grinner : they flew to take cover but not shoot (standard Grinner)

-I go in their back and shoot : They come to me, don't shoot and then go take cover (standard grinner)

-I go in their back and shoot : They come to me, don't act and just follow the noise (melee grinner)

 

Next test was to let them switch ALARM ON, same reaction with any grinner.

 

NEXT BIG TEST

 

I go next to five grinners invisible that never see me (alarm still on) and shoot my StrunW : they come to me an then take cover.

 

I stay on the top of console, doing nothing and when turning visible : they shoot me and send their grenades.

 

I stay on the top of console, doing nothing and turn invisible : they just end their shooting and send their grenades and the stop attacking.

 

I stay on the top of console, Shooting my strun and Still invisible : they did nothing 4-6s and just start their shooting and send their grenades at me.

 

I go behind a grinner, doing nothing and still invisible : they just end their shooting and send their grenades (where I was) and the stop attacking.

 

I change location, start Shooting my strun and Still invisible : they take cover and do nothing 4-6s and just start their shooting and send their grenades at me.

 

RESUME : IF LOKI is Invisible, Grinner hearing a weapon : take cover, stand by and then attack still in cover with weapons and grenades.

 

Why do they don't do it all time ??? NOISE RANGE !!! everybody know grinner galleon extraction with the two Slope (slide) between the three platform ? :

 

While Invisible with my AKBolto, I can shoot just next to the grinner from one Plateform to another he doesn't react !!!

-I can shoot just next to the grinner from one Plateform to another he doesn't react !!!

-I can shoot just next to the grinner at 2/3 distance of the Plateform to another he doesn't react !!!

-I can shoot just next to the grinner at 1/3 distance of the Plateform to another he RUN and take Cover

 

MY OPINION : They are a lot less stupid than I believe, It's just that we, tenno, are way too fast ! So you cannot see them acting wisely because you kill them too fast and swarm of enemies rise the probability of attacking !!!

[NinjaSnipe11]

This is the topic that keeps on giving.

[izzatuw]

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Latron_Wraith

 

Advantages:

Silent

??

[Holeypaladin]

@HoleyPaladin, Latron Wraith is actually considered a silent weapon lol

Well... that explains a lot.

[Kripion]

Ok ok so we already have this AI behavior. So lets move a little further.

 

Why dont give invisible loki/ash some dmg boost if He is using silent weapon? Bows, thrown weapon, shall benefit from invis (with smaller multiplier than melee because of lower difficulty curve of range weapons) in similiar way as melee !

 

Furthermore I would suggest to add dmg multiplier for ANY hit done to unalerted enemy, no matter if tenno is invisible or not.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Kripion

[MotherofHermes]

Why is this suggestion bad? 

 

A.I. buffs are good.

 

Because standing beside a group of enemies unloading a soma with no repercussions doesn't really make sense. 

[ThePresident777]

Alright then, let's be consistent.  If enemies are going to shoot at sounds made by invisible Tenno then they should shoot at the sound of the Tenno's silenced weapon bullets hitting a far of wall.  If the enemy will react to sound then the Tenno should be able to distract them with sounds of their own making, especially Loki.  Loki should be able to do ventriloqism through his decoy.