This Was Very Poorly Designed Around Players With Arsenal Full Of Mods And Proves That Raids Consisting Of Lvl80 Enemies Isnt A Good Idea.

[Davoodoo]

I can believe that someone completed it with saryn, but at what cost, 100 small energy restores, 100 medium and some large?? Can it ever be used as valid tactic if it requires so immense cost when there are setups who do it for no cost at all.

 

I can stand and fire fireballs for 2 days at lvl 1000 enemy and say that space mage is a thing, using gun would take me few minutes at best.

 

All of mentioned setups used loki, limbo, vauban, banshee as these are most effective at cc and invulnerability. Yes nyx will work, yes nova will work, yes oberon will work. Long duration cc or long duration invulnerability, only 2 viable tactics.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Davoodoo

[aoguro]

All those squads can lock down the enemies and/or make the party invincible. They may use different frames but that's what they do in the end, and sadly not every frame can do those things.

It's not that the CC is bad or that it is "cheating" (it's not), it's that scaling is so screwed up that your only choice is to completely deny the enemy the chance to act and attack you.

 

Now, if we get lots and lots of teams of Embers, Zephyrs, Mesas, Volts and Saryns completing the escalation, then I'll be impressed.

"Someone else said they soloed it with Saryn and a rank 0 Scindo." > Yeah and that requires proof :P

 

 

i think people are too fixed on some warframes, weapons and how to play the game that they lost to see the treasure of the whole game, my 2 cents for =)

[Briareos]

I can believe that someone completed it with saryn, but at what cost, 100 small energy restores, 100 medium and some large?? Can it ever be used as valid tactic if it requires so immense cost when there are setups who do it for no cost at all.

 

So your complaint is that every setup should have an equal difficulty in accomplishing the mission? Sorry, I disagree most strongly. The fact of the matter is, certain frames are better at some things than others. Some frames can do things other frames can't do.

 

The complaint here seemed to start out as, "OMG you need these particular things to be successful" and when people pointed out that that wasn't the case, the complaint turned into, "OMG you need these particular things to be easily successful."

 

Again, nobody complains that CC-based frames aren't the best for things like Survival, so I don't see why having a tactical alert that favors CC-based frames is a bad thing.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Briareos

[Davoodoo]

So your complaint is that every setup should have an equal difficulty in accomplishing the mission? Sorry, I disagree most strongly. The fact of the matter is, certain frames are better at some things than others. Some frames can do things other frames can't do.

 

The complaint here seemed to start out as, "OMG you need these particular things to be successful" and when people pointed out that that wasn't the case, the complaint turned into, "OMG you need these particular things to be easily successful."

 

Again, nobody complains that CC-based frames aren't the best for things like Survival, so I don't see why having a tactical alert that favors CC-based frames is a bad thing.

Easily you say?? how many ppl can afford multiple runs against high lvl enemies each time burning through 200 restores, small and medium restores will cost you 100k per run, even if they can afford it how long will they be able to keep it up, they will earn less than they spend and thats credits only. Setting cost argument aside, if only 1 in thousands can pull it off how can you call that easy or even optimal.

 

Should some frames have easier time against specific enemies, yes ofc. Ember having easier time against infested, saryn against grineer and volt against corpus is how it works.

Loki however have easier time against everything, there is not 1 single situation that loki doesnt have answer to, long range cc which also takes enemies weapons away with long duration invisbility for enemies which are immune to cc.

Only enemy that loki might struggle with is stalker, because he can make loki abilities useless.

 

What can stop vauban, limbo and banshee?? only enemies immune to powers, which consist of bosses and stalker types. Not even nullifiers are immune once their bubble dies.

Thats how few enemies can actually provide any challenge for these frames.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Davoodoo

[Briareos]

Easily you say?? how many ppl can afford multiple runs against high lvl enemies each time burning through 200 restores, small and medium restores will cost you 100k per run, even if they can afford it how long will they be able to keep it up, they will earn less than they spend and thats credits only.

 

Pretty sure you totally misunderstood what I was saying, but thanks for proving my point: You want everyone to have an equal difficulty in completing the mission. A Saryn should have just as easy a time finishing it as an Irradiating Disarm Loki. Because if the Saryn has to bring a big pile of restores to do it because Saryn's not as good at CC as Loki, then that's a bad thing, is that what you're saying?

 

I'm looking forward to your post that it's also unfair that Nyx can't go toe-to-toe with a Heavy Gunner like Iron Skin Rhino. I mean, sure, Nyx could bring a big pile of health and shield restores to do it, but that's unfair in the exact same way, isn't it?

 

What can stop vauban, limbo and banshee?? only enemies immune to powers, which consist of bosses and stalker types. Not even nullifiers are immune once their bubble dies.

Thats how few enemies can actually provide any challenge for these frames.

 

Anything with an AoE attack. Enjoy your energy leech, blitz, and arson eximus. Though with the possible exception of Limbo I guess, though I couldn't say for sure because I don't have him yet so I don't know how the whole rift thing works.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Briareos

[Davoodoo]

Pretty sure you totally misunderstood what I was saying, but thanks for proving my point: You want everyone to have an equal difficulty in completing the mission. A Saryn should have just as easy a time finishing it as an Irradiating Disarm Loki. Because if the Saryn has to bring a big pile of restores to do it because Saryn's not as good at CC as Loki, then that's a bad thing, is that what you're saying?

 

I'm looking forward to your post that it's also unfair that Nyx can't go toe-to-toe with a Heavy Gunner like Iron Skin Rhino. I mean, sure, Nyx could bring a big pile of health and shield restores to do it, but that's unfair in the exact same way, isn't it?

 

 

Anything with an AoE attack. Enjoy your energy leech, blitz, and arson eximus. Though with the possible exception of Limbo I guess, though I couldn't say for sure because I don't have him yet so I don't know how the whole rift thing works.

You misunderstood what i was saying, strategy that bears too high cost isnt valid one.

If challenge is supposed to be there, it should be challenge to whatever setup you bring, if you can bypass it using certain setup then challenge doesnt exist.

 

Nyx will use different strategy than rhino, rhino will facetank while nyx will mind control, cc limited to single target wont trivialize hordes of enemies and as long as iron skin still scales both are unique, viable and more or less balanced options, nyx however can mind control lvl 1 enemy aswell as 9999lvl one, rhino can facetank lvl1 using iron skin, lvl9999 one will still kill with 1 shot.

 

Enemies cant attack what they dont see, as long as loki is competent enough to hide between invis wearing off and recasting it, which should be pretty much everyone, he wont be killed and eximus units can still be disarmed.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Davoodoo

[MrPigman]

personally, i think this is only because of how this mission was set up. nobody use their weapon because it was illogical to use it in that situation with most warframes.

 

i think we're forgetting that once raids come we will have a full arsenal and no conclave limit, which will allow us to do as we please.

 

also DE already said CC is the meat of the late game, all damage skills fall off so it's no wonder that cc wins matches. Of course this could be fixed by better scaling skills or have some skills deal percent hp damage.

 

as for weapons, i think they're strong enough as is, it's a matter of having the right weapon for the job.

 

i dont think this is DE's ideal example of a challenge but i do feel it was a challenge at first.

 

DE is still working on improving difficulty and i think the steps they are taking currently (new unique enemies) is in the right direction. It will not be a quick process to get the game to be perfect and that's ok.

 

we all need to keep in mind that escalation was by no means a shining example of warframe gameplay, it was more backing us into a corner with few options left.

 

personally i think it might be nice to see the enemies get their own supports (negate bubble guys are decent) but they need something stronger, some cc attacks and healing abilities. something to even the playing field.

[sanj66]

personally, i think this is only because of how this mission was set up. nobody use their weapon because it was illogical to use it in that situation with most warframes.

 

i think we're forgetting that once raids come we will have a full arsenal and no conclave limit, which will allow us to do as we please.

 

also DE already said CC is the meat of the late game, all damage skills fall off so it's no wonder that cc wins matches. Of course this could be fixed by better scaling skills or have some skills deal percent hp damage.

 

as for weapons, i think they're strong enough as is, it's a matter of having the right weapon for the job.

 

i dont think this is DE's ideal example of a challenge but i do feel it was a challenge at first.

 

DE is still working on improving difficulty and i think the steps they are taking currently (new unique enemies) is in the right direction. It will not be a quick process to get the game to be perfect and that's ok.

 

we all need to keep in mind that escalation was by no means a shining example of warframe gameplay, it was more backing us into a corner with few options left.

 

personally i think it might be nice to see the enemies get their own supports (negate bubble guys are decent) but they need something stronger, some cc attacks and healing abilities. something to even the playing field.

that is true, but in the other hand they are proven hypocritical in they talk about pressing 4 to win or one trick pony's, yet isnt that the whole point of cc? building frames to cc mainly is just doing that and the way they are setting things up that is exactly what they are funneling players to do, have you ever noticed the latest frames and their skill designs? they are all just clones of each other, no diversity.

[MrPigman]

that is true, but in the other hand they are proven hypocritical in they talk about pressing 4 to win or one trick pony's, yet isnt that the whole point of cc? building frames to cc mainly is just doing that and the way they are setting things up that is exactly what they are funneling players to do, have you ever noticed the latest frames and their skill designs? they are all just clones of each other, no diversity.

yea there are only so many things you can do so there will be similarities. as far as building for cc, i dont see why that's an issue? building for a single skill is more the issue. what DE really needs to do it make the warframes more interactive so it will force players to think.

 

example: for nova her 4 is really all she is, while i dont see a need to nerf her 4 i do see a need to make her other abilities more useful.

maybe make her 1 automatically proc mprime when it hits without consuming the debuff. make her 2 when hitting an enemy who is already mprimed, have it consume the debuff, but apply a heavier one that does not explode.

 

i think the biggest thing to fix this is make each skill server a particular purpose in their kit. unfortunately right now many warframes has skills that are overshadowed by other skills IN THEIR OWN KIT!

 

excal being a verdict here with slash dash and radial javeline. why are you gonna bother putting yourself at risk by flying into a group of enemies when you can just stand behind a wall and press 4? superjump... i am not sure why he even has this skill. blind is ok in his kit because its unique to his kit.

 

trinity being another with well of life and blessing. why bother using well of life when you can energy vampire and then use blessing? maybe if well of life had some effects to separate it from blessing.

 

point being, yes DE needs to take some abilities into more consideration and they REALLY need to consider doing some seriosu revamps to those warframes who suffer from this.

 

the problem is not the skills themselves but the fact that those skills are the only useful skills on the warframe.

[Davoodoo]

yea there are only so many things you can do so there will be similarities. as far as building for cc, i dont see why that's an issue? building for a single skill is more the issue. what DE really needs to do it make the warframes more interactive so it will force players to think.

 

example: for nova her 4 is really all she is, while i dont see a need to nerf her 4 i do see a need to make her other abilities more useful.

maybe make her 1 automatically proc mprime when it hits without consuming the debuff. make her 2 when hitting an enemy who is already mprimed, have it consume the debuff, but apply a heavier one that does not explode.

 

i think the biggest thing to fix this is make each skill server a particular purpose in their kit. unfortunately right now many warframes has skills that are overshadowed by other skills IN THEIR OWN KIT!

 

excal being a verdict here with slash dash and radial javeline. why are you gonna bother putting yourself at risk by flying into a group of enemies when you can just stand behind a wall and press 4? superjump... i am not sure why he even has this skill. blind is ok in his kit because its unique to his kit.

 

trinity being another with well of life and blessing. why bother using well of life when you can energy vampire and then use blessing? maybe if well of life had some effects to separate it from blessing.

 

point being, yes DE needs to take some abilities into more consideration and they REALLY need to consider doing some seriosu revamps to those warframes who suffer from this.

 

the problem is not the skills themselves but the fact that those skills are the only useful skills on the warframe.

If you see a trend here you will notice that one trick ponies are all buffers and radial aoe spammers, with only vauban not having radial aoe but grenade projectile and trinity creating radial aoe on enemy not herself. 

 

If you can pinpoint that whole category is at fault then you can either bring everything to that lvl which is impossible since it would require every single ability to be aoe or you can nerf those which by itself will create problems at current state of balance.

 

Ppl dont complain about nyx mind control and its highly tactical power which allows you to remove 1 dangerous unit from battle, its a permament cc just like these radial powers except limited in number of targets, it is however rendered pointless by the fact that no unit is particulary dangerous and by us having chaos, if you wished however to buff it to chaos lvl, you just created safer version of chaos.

 

Ability that doesnt affect yourself, squad or every enemy in x radius is simply rendered obsolete by those that do and nothing can be changed about it without redesigning at least few other mechanics and systems.

 

We are in a state where single ability from single frame can render whole room harmless, comparing that to wow blizzard actually had to make adds immune to cc since even 5 man squads could coordinate and block each of them in single target permament cc skipping whole parts of the fight and they actually put effort to coordinate instead of putting forward 1 person with aoe. Payday 2 also had really powerful aoe cc, called feedback, for 20 seconds it renders every enemy on map harmless but can be used at best 2 times per person being deep in that specific tree, powerful?? yeah, but also limited enough asset to be used tactically where everythng else fails.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Davoodoo

[SquirmyBurrito]

Easily you say?? how many ppl can afford multiple runs against high lvl enemies each time burning through 200 restores, small and medium restores will cost you 100k per run, even if they can afford it how long will they be able to keep it up, they will earn less than they spend and thats credits only. Setting cost argument aside, if only 1 in thousands can pull it off how can you call that easy or even optimal.

 

Should some frames have easier time against specific enemies, yes ofc. Ember having easier time against infested, saryn against grineer and volt against corpus is how it works.

Loki however have easier time against everything, there is not 1 single situation that loki doesnt have answer to, long range cc which also takes enemies weapons away with long duration invisbility for enemies which are immune to cc.

Only enemy that loki might struggle with is stalker, because he can make loki abilities useless.

 

What can stop vauban, limbo and banshee?? only enemies immune to powers, which consist of bosses and stalker types. Not even nullifiers are immune once their bubble dies.

Thats how few enemies can actually provide any challenge for these frames.

 

Can you stop exaggerating? There is no way you should be burning through even 50 restores for this TA, let alone 200. 1 in 1000 is plenty when that 1 person was the only one in that group who was even mid-tier. The TA Escalation is quite clearly not meant for low tier players. Its for those players who liked the original TA before it was fixed. When using one of the many different strats that others have suggested, completing the TA goes from seemingly impossible to incredibly easy.

 

Loki requires his radial disarm augment in order for him to have any CC worth mentioning. And Loki can be killed off by any enemy with AoE attacks. When in a squad you have to worry about getting caught in the cross fire. And eximus units are still a threat to loki. Unlike the three frames you mentioned, to kill any unit that isn't a really low-leveled infested enemy, Loki needs a good weapon.

 

Look at every frame in this game, how many are actually threatened by anything short of ultra high level mobs/incredibly large quantities of mobs? One-on-one the only enemies that can provide a threat to our frames are nullifiers, Stalker, and probably a few bosses (does Alad V's pet still have that dispell-like ability?). Hopefully those user designed enemies will help make the game more challenging.

 

Edit: Just hopped into a the Tactical alert and checked, you do not get oneshotted by the standard enemies (the Napalm and the Eviscerator's bleed procs will probably oneshot you, didn't stay long enough to check). If you're getting oneshotted, you're probably a loki. 

Edited March 3, 2015 by SquirmyBurrito

[MrPigman]

If you see a trend here you will notice that one trick ponies are all buffers and radial aoe spammers, with only vauban not having radial aoe but grenade projectile and trinity creating radial aoe on enemy not herself. 

 

If you can pinpoint that whole category is at fault then you can either bring everything to that lvl which is impossible since it would require every single ability to be aoe or you can nerf those which by itself will create problems at current state of balance.

 

Ppl dont complain about nyx mind control and its highly tactical power which allows you to remove 1 dangerous unit from battle, its a permament cc just like these radial powers except limited in number of targets, it is however rendered pointless by the fact that no unit is particulary dangerous and by us having chaos, if you wished however to buff it to chaos lvl, you just created safer version of chaos.

 

Ability that doesnt affect yourself, squad or every enemy in x radius is simply rendered obsolete by those that do and nothing can be changed about it without redesigning at least few other mechanics and systems.

 

We are in a state where single ability from single frame can render whole room harmless, comparing that to wow blizzard actually had to make adds immune to cc since even 5 man squads could coordinate and block each of them in single target permament cc skipping whole parts of the fight and they actually put effort to coordinate instead of putting forward 1 person with aoe. Payday 2 also had really powerful aoe cc, called feedback, for 20 seconds it renders every enemy on map harmless but can be used at best 2 times per person being deep in that specific tree, powerful?? yeah, but also limited enough asset to be used tactically where everythng else fails.

good point, the immensely powerful cc really should not be aoe, or should be more limited. i also feel like leaders should be immune to CC to give them extra intimidation factor.

 

though i see your point i'm not entirely sure its the AOE factor that's at fault here. Aoe's are good and quite needed in this game, because there is simply no way you're gonna mow down hordes of high level enemies with just weapons.

 

now let's cover those who you mentioned;

 

Loki's Radial Disarm: even when i first started warframe (i started with loki) i thought radial disarm was some pretty op stuff. why? it has no duration, does not need power strength to scale and is a large aoe. essentially this skill is mostly static and really has no counter. i think this ability could be made fair just by giving it a duration and a somewhat short one at that, just enough time to get your team to safer grounds, maybe at max 12 seconds.

 

Trinity's Energy Vampire: I think this skill just needs an energy return scale back. Trinity is a support warframe, so i dont see why using energy vampire should have 0 consequence for her. why did DE  make it return enough to refund and give even MORE energy back to trinity? the supports job is to help others before yourself, even if that means spending your own energy to give others some. the support frame isnt really living up to it's name. i think it should grant enough to make a difference to others but not enough to grant infinite energy.

 

as for buffing other abilities to their heights, that's not at all what i was saying, and im sorry if it wasn't clear. what i tried to convey was the idea that every warframes skill should feel like it serves a purpose of being in the kit, meaning; DE needs to stop throwing random S#&$ into a warframe's kit. i think limbo has one of the best kits in the game simply because all of his skills work with each other, it is a well put together kit. now imagine if we could get every warframe in the game to have skills that all seem to interlace with eachother so that every skill has a purpose. some of the warframes in the game feel very incomplete because it seems like DE just gave them crap abilities that dont add much to the warframe, some examples of these frames being: Excal, Nova, Hydroid, Frost(sort of), ash(only his 1), and Volt.

the most well put together kits in the game IMO are; limbo, zephyr, Valkyr, and loki. all of these are frames that i've noticed have all of their abilities used rather than just 1 or 2.

[jmforeman02]

New TA ofc, what else.

 

Before ill choose my "you and point" meme for this thread i would like to clarify.

Example put below illustrates problem which haunts the warframe, complete reliance on exploits which render enemies permamently harmless, whether you use limbo, valkyr, loki, vauban you still survive by making enemy incapable of damaging you.

Whether or not you believe its skill or not i dont care, i care that it takes away choice, since any frame without mentioned abilities becomes useless and even those possesing them are relegated to being "jamming device" sitting at middle of map and mindlessly pressing 1 button over and over.

Is this really the best that we can expect from de in terms of endgame content, raising lvl till we need to rely on exploits to not get hit??

 

Whats wrong with it??

1) got loki??

2) got 4 corrosive proejctions??

3) got fully modded scindo or galantine with viral build??(viral helps alot, not necessary though)

4) got enough energy restores or trin??

5) got some slow nova or vortex vauban

 

If you fulfilled 5 above requirments you can enjoy mindlessly slashing enemies which cant retaliate because if they somehow manage to retaliate, you are dead.

 

Thats what this new TA represents and that is how raids are gonna look like, except step 3, it will be replaced with something else.

Only 3k, less than 1% of all players managed to clear it so far, rest either dont care, isnt around or dont have enough gear to fulfill 5 step program.

 

It aint hard, its just stupid.

 

Edit: ppl i know you could probably ignore everything above, bring 4 valkyrs or perma invis lokis and still make it, 5 step program is just surefire way for any group, still some hard cc, perma invis or hysteria is needed.

 

Edit: added explanation for clarity, got rid of outdated numbers.

 

If this were a common mission or something, I'd agree with you, but it's not. It's a one time challenge and I personally liked having the goal of assembling a team with complementary powers to defeat it. I'm glad that a cosmetic came out that took a certain amount of achievement to get as well. A cosmetic isn't as good if everyone has it. What does a badge that everyone has prove? I took me 3 tries to get it. It wasn't all that bad. I used a banshee btw, not on your list. And I didn't use my Scindo Prime once so those mods didn't matter at all. I just needed middle tier rare and nightmare mods to hold everyone at bay while limbo kept me juiced. The other 2 guys did the killing. I thought it was a nice way to test people's strategic ability. Only the best get the glory.

Edited March 3, 2015 by jmforeman02

[geninrising]

If this were a common mission or something, I'd agree with you, but it's not. It's a one time challenge and I personally liked having the goal of assembling a team with complementary powers to defeat it. I'm glad that a cosmetic came out that took a certain amount of achievement to get as well. A cosmetic isn't as good if everyone has it. What does a badge that everyone has prove? I took me 3 tries to get it. It wasn't all that bad. I used a banshee btw, not on your list. And I didn't use my Scindo Prime once so those mods didn't matter at all. I just needed middle tier rare and nightmare mods to hold everyone at bay while limbo kept me juiced. The other 2 guys did the killing. I thought it was a nice way to test people's strategic ability. Only the best get the glory.

The only thing this TA tested was your ability to exploit the broken energy gating mechanics. Skill was not a factor, or at least it was not a major contributing factor in any way. The entirety of the enemy faction was constantly disable so as to make them nothing but low quality AI punching bags. SMH at all these players that equate abuse of a game system to skill.

[jmforeman02]

The only thing this TA tested was your ability to exploit the broken energy gating mechanics. Skill was not a factor, or at least it was not a major contributing factor in any way. The entirety of the enemy faction was constantly disable so as to make them nothing but low quality AI punching bags. SMH at all these players that equate abuse of a game system to skill.

I said strategic ability, not skill, there is a difference. And it was a good test to see who could come up with and implement a strategy that worked and who couldn't. Also you could consider it somewhat of an achievement test: who had the mods to make it work, and who didn't.

Edited March 3, 2015 by jmforeman02

[ddg92]

The only thing this TA tested was your ability to exploit the broken energy gating mechanics. Skill was not a factor, or at least it was not a major contributing factor in any way. The entirety of the enemy faction was constantly disable so as to make them nothing but low quality AI punching bags. SMH at all these players that equate abuse of a game system to skill.

Do you know what the word exploit means?

[RealPandemonium]

The latest post in that thread says they did it with a Banshee using Sound Quake, a Nyx using Chaos, a Loki running around being invisible and disarming, and a Rhino. How is that cheese, exactly? You could run the exact same squad in any defense mission on the starchart and people would just nod because it's basic defense strategy.

 

Someone else said they soloed it with Saryn and a rank 0 Scindo. Cheesy? Sounds more like ballsy to me.

 

The main point here is that it's easy to trivialize the game by turning enemies off pretty much indefinitely.  As for the Saryn bit, the word that comes to mind is "expensive," given how many restores they went through to do it.  There isn't really anything ballsy about chaincasting a power that staggers enemies, hundreds of times over the course of a mission.  

 

Do you know what the word exploit means?

You know exactly what he's trying to say; don't start an argument about semantics just because you disagree.

[Davoodoo]

Can you stop exaggerating? There is no way you should be burning through even 50 restores for this TA, let alone 200. 1 in 1000 is plenty when that 1 person was the only one in that group who was even mid-tier. The TA Escalation is quite clearly not meant for low tier players. Its for those players who liked the original TA before it was fixed. When using one of the many different strats that others have suggested, completing the TA goes from seemingly impossible to incredibly easy.

 

Loki requires his radial disarm augment in order for him to have any CC worth mentioning. And Loki can be killed off by any enemy with AoE attacks. When in a squad you have to worry about getting caught in the cross fire. And eximus units are still a threat to loki. Unlike the three frames you mentioned, to kill any unit that isn't a really low-leveled infested enemy, Loki needs a good weapon.

 

Look at every frame in this game, how many are actually threatened by anything short of ultra high level mobs/incredibly large quantities of mobs? One-on-one the only enemies that can provide a threat to our frames are nullifiers, Stalker, and probably a few bosses (does Alad V's pet still have that dispell-like ability?). Hopefully those user designed enemies will help make the game more challenging.

 

Edit: Just hopped into a the Tactical alert and checked, you do not get oneshotted by the standard enemies (the Napalm and the Eviscerator's bleed procs will probably oneshot you, didn't stay long enough to check). If you're getting oneshotted, you're probably a loki. 

Solo saryn, 2 second stun for minimum of 25 energy, being solo will also make it harder to cap objectives, all while solo loki can do it under 30 restores quite easily.

 

Enemies wont fire their aoe unless they see him, which shouldnt happen if you are half decent player and loki wont get into crossfire since no enemy will ever have a ranged weapon while being in 50meters from him.

 

Loki isnt threatened by any lvls, only thing he cant avoid are radial aoe from eximus which cant really be avoided, still in solo play you should never see them happen.

 

Hop back into escalation and check again, max hp shields and armor valkyr, without warcry i got hit for 400 per shot from lvl110 heavy gunner, with max strength(blind rage, transient and intensify) warcry it went down to 120 and thats goddamn most tanky frame in the game with most inefficient build possible. Typical duration/strength mesa gets hit for 130 from same lvl110 heavy gunner with 95% dmg reduction and both builds die as soon as they get hit by bleed or more than single unit starts firing at them. Max strength rhino survived 4hits from lvl116 gunner.

Anything lighter than that gets killed in one or two shots from lvl110 heavy gunner which can spew lots of bullets per minute and even those that can survive cant qualify that as tanking and are using most inefficient build requiring them to spend 6 slots just to ensure their defense and buffs are capped oh and they die the second bleed procs on them.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Davoodoo

[SquirmyBurrito]

Solo saryn, 2 second stun for minimum of 25 energy, being solo will also make it harder to cap objectives, all while solo loki can do it under 30 restores quite easily.

 

Enemies wont fire their aoe unless they see him, which shouldnt happen if you are half decent player and loki wont get into crossfire since no enemy will ever have a ranged weapon while being in 50meters from him.

 

Loki isnt threatened by any lvls, only thing he cant avoid are radial aoe from eximus which cant really be avoided, still in solo play you should never see them happen.

 

Hop back into escalation and check again, max hp shields and armor valkyr, without warcry i got hit for 400 per shot from lvl110 heavy gunner, with max strength(blind rage, transient and intensify) warcry it went down to 120 and thats goddamn most tanky frame in the game with most inefficient build possible. Typical duration/strength mesa gets hit for 130 from same lvl110 heavy gunner with 95% dmg reduction and both builds die as soon as they get hit by bleed or more than single unit starts firing at them. Max strength rhino survived 2hits from lvl116 gunner.

Anything lighter than that gets killed in one shot from lvl110 heavy gunner which can spew lots of bullets per minute and even those that can survive cant qualify that as tanking and are using most inefficient build requiring them to spend 6 slots just to ensure their defense and buffs are capped oh and they die the second bleed procs on them.

 

So? What does Loki being better suited for this have to do with anything?

 

Loki isn't perminantly invisible. He has to re-appear at some point, and unless you've carefully balanced your energy drain with your power duration, you're going to run out of ammo if you're staying invisible AND disarming the entire map. And any stray baton swing, bullet, or aoe attack is going to oneshot a loki.

 

Loki is in just as much danger as everyone else. 'but invisibility' same can be said for most other frames in one way or another. 'but radial disarm' see previous response. The big difference is that most of those other frames aren't as squish as loki nor as energy dependent. And I'd love to here how Loki is going to deal with a high level enemy without any weapons to do the job for him. Most other frames could eventually kill the enemy. Loki could not. All he has is soft CC, the ability to convert enemies into melee units, and the ability to go invisible.

 

Why is your valkyr built around shields and armor instead of health and armor? Maybe you should go test it again (but with a tanky build instead). Because either you're mistaken or my Limbo is glitched. Because I was repeatedly taking damage between re-casts of rift walk and I was never oneshotted. My Mesa with shatter shield survived several shots, no exact number is known since I walked straight into a napalm before the others got a chance to kill me. If you eat a bullet from a level 100+ enemy without dying, you tanked their attack.

[Davoodoo]

So? What does Loki being better suited for this have to do with anything?

 

Loki isn't perminantly invisible. He has to re-appear at some point, and unless you've carefully balanced your energy drain with your power duration, you're going to run out of ammo if you're staying invisible AND disarming the entire map. And any stray baton swing, bullet, or aoe attack is going to oneshot a loki.

 

Loki is in just as much danger as everyone else. 'but invisibility' same can be said for most other frames in one way or another. 'but radial disarm' see previous response. The big difference is that most of those other frames aren't as squish as loki nor as energy dependent. And I'd love to here how Loki is going to deal with a high level enemy without any weapons to do the job for him. Most other frames could eventually kill the enemy. Loki could not. All he has is soft CC, the ability to convert enemies into melee units, and the ability to go invisible.

 

Why is your valkyr built around shields and armor instead of health and armor? Maybe you should go test it again (but with a tanky build instead). Because either you're mistaken or my Limbo is glitched. Because I was repeatedly taking damage between re-casts of rift walk and I was never oneshotted. My Mesa with shatter shield survived several shots, no exact number is known since I walked straight into a napalm before the others got a chance to kill me. If you eat a bullet from a level 100+ enemy without dying, you tanked their attack.

Loki being better suited for anything, if that doesnt make frames obsolete then single match serves as good as lighthouse as navigation point.

 

You have a weapons so yeah use them, even unmodded weapon would probably kill faster than ember tossing 400 base dmg fireballs which cant bypass armor in any way, melee at least got finisher and guns can headshot.

 

And like i said if loki is half decent isnt complete idiot he wont appear right in front of enemy and enemies actually lose their weapon permamently so he needs to spam it only as much as to reduce risk, with group risk is greater since your teammates cant go invis most of the time but solo it aint problem at all, hes less energy dependent than frost or rhino, only valkyr comes to my mind which uses less energy and still plays optimal.

 

Read again "max hp shields and armor", i used , redirection, vitality, steel fiber, blind rage, transient fortitude and intensify all maxed.

When im being seen by more than 1 lancer when i go out of invis on ash or loki im dead, ash might survive with 50hp or so but 0.5s lifetime isnt anywhere near suited for human reaction time, on limbo i actually do everything to keep rift running i never go out unless to pick up loot so i wont tell you about that.

 

No matter how you look at it, we die too fast, we got slower reaction than enemy, our damage powers lose against armor and weapons, properly built loki is best suited for every situation making every other choice suboptimal, enemies need to die before being able to harm you at high lvl otherwise you die and there actually abilities that allow you to do such seemingly impossible feat.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Davoodoo

[Liminal]

So your complaint is that every setup should have an equal difficulty in accomplishing the mission? Sorry, I disagree most strongly. The fact of the matter is, certain frames are better at some things than others. Some frames can do things other frames can't do.

Yeah, but right now the difference in difficulty is abysmal. An average player may start having trouble with lv50 enemies when running Ember and lv100 when running Valkyr.

They should excel in different areas, but they should be overall equally viable.

[Marthrym]

Sure thing. Here you go: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/2xepq3/megathread_the_phoenix_intercept_strategy/ It's up to 161 comments as of this post. I'm not going to list them all.

 

But seriously, you want to use any strategy to finish the mission? That sounds incredibly boring to me. I enjoyed the challenge of coming up with a build that worked and a strategy to deploy it. If you want to do anything you want inside of a mission without serious threat of failing it, I hear Mercury has a nice selection to choose from.

You do realize you're just giving more ammo to throw at you right? They basically all describe the EXACT SAME STRATEGY. Except with different frames.

How can you not see this? It's the same damn thing EVERY SINGLE TIME: neutralize the enemy through hard CC and damage mitigation before they OHK you.

 

That's ONE strategy. Not two, or three, or dozens. Do you know what the word "strategy" even means?^^'

Just because you used frame A, B or C to CC, and frame D, E or F to kill enemies doesn't mean it's a different strategy, it still is the SAME one. That's the point of the thread. Point you either miss on purpose for some reason I can't quite figure out (fanboyism? I don't think so, but I don't see what else it could be...), or maybe you're just flamebaiting. Or trolling?^^'

 

The CC part is not at fault here, the stupidely broken scaling is. How can you fix what revolves around a core, without fixing said core first? It's not about making EVERY strategy equally viable. It's about making more than ONE viable.

 

Oh and also to make it fun, if that still matters to people.^^'

Edited March 3, 2015 by Marthrym

[Briareos]

You do realize you're just giving more ammo to throw at you right? They basically all describe the EXACT SAME STRATEGY. Except with different frames.

How can you not see this? It's the same damn thing EVERY SINGLE TIME: neutralize the enemy through hard CC and damage mitigation before they OHK you.

 

That's ONE strategy. Not two, or three, or dozens. Do you know what the word "strategy" even means?^^'

Just because you used frame A, B or C to CC, and frame D, E or F to kill enemies doesn't mean it's a different strategy, it still is the SAME one. That's the point of the thread. Point you either miss on purpose for some reason I can't quite figure out (fanboyism? I don't think so, but I don't see what else it could be...), or maybe you're just flamebaiting. Or trolling?^^'

 

The CC part is not at fault here, the stupidely broken scaling is. How can you fix what revolves around a core, without fixing said core first? It's not about making EVERY strategy equally viable. It's about making more than ONE viable.

 

Oh and also to make it fun, if that still matters to people.^^'

 

I think the real irony here is that the Escalation part of the event was bolted on after people said, "Oh, this event is too easy! Give us a harder one!" Then DE gives a ridiculously hard mission and they get people complaining about that instead.

 

Let me ask you this: How was this event any different from any other Interception mission with high-level enemies? If the answer is, "It's not" then you've got no ground to stand on with me because I haven't seen a single solitary complaint ever about how Interception missions shoehorn you into a "single strategy."

 

I'm not trolling or being a fanboy. That's been my point the whole time: It's just a brutally hard Interception mission but nobody complains about Interception. Yet, here we are on page 17 of a megathread about how this event is so bad and wrong.

 

The event's over so it's a moot point now. FWIW, I had fun figuring out what I had to do, coming up with a plan, and then executing it. I wouldn't want to do it all the time, but it was a nice change of pace for some fancy cosmetics.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Briareos

[Liminal]

I'm not trolling or being a fanboy. That's been my point the whole time: It's just a brutally hard Interception mission but nobody complains about Interception. Yet, here we are on page 17 of a megathread about how this event is so bad and wrong.

That's so wrong. A lot of people, including yours truly (wink wink), complain about scaling all the time. It's the real issue brought to light by this alert and it's ridiculous.

 

I'm not actually saying the alert was bad in itself*, I'm saying the alert was bad because it dealt with WF's horrible level mechanics, past beyond the point where any semblance of balance disappears.

 

*someone may, but I'm pretty sure the general argument in the thread has moved on from that now.

[Callback]

That's ONE strategy. Not two, or three, or dozens. Do you know what the word "strategy" even means?^^'

Just because you used frame A, B or C to CC, and frame D, E or F to kill enemies doesn't mean it's a different strategy, it still is the SAME one. That's the point of the thread. 

Would you say every chess strategy is identical because they all attempt to checkmate the enemy king?

 

Would you say the strategy for EVERY mission is the came since it revolves around the point of not dying?

 

 

Yes, every successful team had a way to avoid being shot.  That was the point of this alert.  You're supposed to come up with a team that can simultaneously avoid the instakill bullets, keep enemies off of points, and kill them all between rounds.

 

You're not describing one strategy, you're describing one challenge; a challenge that was completed many ways by many people.

 

 

Yes, the level scaling mechanics in this game as a whole need a massive overhaul.  In this particular mission, however, the point was for those mechanics to be broken, leaving the challenge of figuring out how to circumvent them.