Strun / Hek Are Too Similar, Redundant.

[Qb3rt]

I was thinking about the weaponry and what each weapon is supposed to be intended FOR. "What was this weapon designed for?". However when it came to asking that question about the Hek ... and then for the Strun ... there doesn't seem to be two distinct answers. Then the question becomes "why would someone ever go through the hassle of creating weapon Y when weapon X already exists?" This question - IMO - is very important for the sake of uniqueness, variety, and generally interesting gameplay. As it stands, the characteristics of the Strun and the Hek are almost identical, and this creates boring overlap.

 

All of the recent Hek drama aside, I don't see the point of having both these two weapons. One has a slightly bigger clip but takes longer to reload ... yet we are given mods specifically to customize clip size and reload speed!

 

All it takes is one single mod to make these weapons nigh indistinguishable: Give a Hek a level 4 "Ammo Stock" and a Strun a level 6 "Tactical Pump" and this is what you end up with ...

 

One 140 dmg shotgun, 6 shell clip, 2.15s reload....

 

&

 

One 130 dmg shotgun, 6 shell clip, 2.10s reload....with a very slightly wider spray.

 

_____

 

The MK-1 Braton -> Braton makes sense, it is akin to taking off the training wheels... the 'Vandal' weapons do too as rare reward versions .... but to have two distinct primaries less than a single mod apart in design is bad for the game & boring for the players.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Qb3rt

[Voidstalker]

I feel Hek is more accurate.

[Firebat86]

Hek is more accurate, lacks a polarity slot, has a tighter cone, has less damage fall off at range, reloads slower, has a lower max ammo cap even with max rank mod, and looks like a nerf gun instead of a fire hose!

[MetalGerbil]

because of the thight spread you have a better shot of getting headhots. also its more "single" target than to strun is. allowing to to focus things down better at further rangers.

 

in terms of what you can get out of them and at what they excel they are quite different.

 

 

also the mrk1 is its own weapon with pros and cons. the braton is no more an upgrade for it as the latron. mrk1 has a bigger clip, better range and bullet spread and better sustain because of it.

Edited May 7, 2013 by MetalGerbil

[Qb3rt]

I feel Hek is more accurate.

Imagine if they were to release a new weapon that is essentially just the Paris with a slightly different trajectory... would that make sense?

 

Curious how many repliers have used both these weapons extensively ... the difference in spread is really not that much at all.

 

If there were 50+ Primary weapon options I wouldn't have posted this, but as it stands there are barely a dozen primaries.... to have 2 out of 13 choices be nearly identical is lazy design.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Qb3rt

[mmSNAKE]

Strun has a bigger *magazine (9 vs 6), benefits more from fire rate mod, and suited for closer range than Hek.

 

Hek even with the mod has only 6 rounds in the mag, fire rate mod does little for this gun since one shot will kill large majority of things and the rate is quick as is. You can also aim to hit weak spot with this to great effect.

 

Look at strun as more of bridging the gap from Boar to Hek.

 

Also the overall damage per shot difference is a lot bigger in practice because Hek does more damage per pellet, and most pellets hit the mark.

 

Strun is easy to get, immediately. Hek needs a good amount of work to get, and for that you get a gun that hits harder and is more accurate.

Edited May 7, 2013 by mmSNAKE

[Qb3rt]

Mods are supposed to be customizations, not requisites. When one single mod can bridge the gap, they are too similar.

 

Just look at how many suggestions for an 'accuracy mod' are on these boards ... how long before the only distinguishing element doesn't exist? Sounds like folks are grasping at straws to satiate antagonism. Then again, that's every thread!

Edited May 7, 2013 by Qb3rt

[mmSNAKE]

Mods are supposed to be customizations, not requisites. When one solitary customization can bridge the gap, they are too similar.

 

 

It doesn't bridge the gap. Not even close. For low level killing, maybe you can't tell a difference, however when enemies reach 40+ there is a massive difference in how one weapon can be handled to be effective.

 

6 rounds vs 9 rounds at different rates of fire and pellet spread is a pretty big difference. If there was a mod that adjusted damage falloff or pellet spread, then yes I would agree with you. Otherwise Strun has nothing on the damage output of Hek for single targets. Same as Strun is better for larger crowds and benefits from Shotgun Spaz.

[Xrylene]

I see the Furis and Viper as being more redundant, especially with both getting twin versions, but I would agree that at the moment the Hek and Strun are too similar.

[modded]

Strun has a bigger *magazine (9 vs 6), benefits more from fire rate mod, and suited for closer range than Hek.

 

Hek even with the mod has only 6 rounds in the mag, fire rate mod does little for this gun since one shot will kill large majority of things and the rate is quick as is. You can also aim to hit weak spot with this to great effect.

 

Look at strun as more of bridging the gap from Boar to Hek.

 

Also the overall damage per shot difference is a lot bigger in practice because Hek does more damage per pellet, and most pellets hit the mark.

 

Strun is easy to get, immediately. Hek needs a good amount of work to get, and for that you get a gun that hits harder and is more accurate.

my strun has 10 round mags...

 

at least they buffed the strun's reload speed.

[Neskartu]

I have used both and post Hek nerf- yes, they feel very similar. The Hek has lost it's niche. It was a longer range, more accurate shotgun than the Strun. Even post nerf, the spread of the pellets is noticeably different and if you say it's not, you either haven't used them both enough or are just belligerent.

 

The Hek needs to be revamped. Sure, it still does more damage than the Strun but it no longer fills its intended purpose of being a mid-range, accurate shotgun. It wasn't lazy design that made these two guns feel similar, it was the nerf that took away the Hek's uniqueness.

 

Imagine if they were to release a new weapon that is essentially just the Paris with a slightly different trajectory... would that make sense?

 

That example was so bad that it gave me cancer.

[mmSNAKE]

my strun has 10 round mags...

 

at least they buffed the strun's reload speed.

 

Crap must have had the wrong mod on it. I always keep one that is at rank 4 (for Hek). Well even better then.

[HighSoul]

The Hek must have more damage...

[Argoms]

I still propose this. :c

[PositronicSpleen]

I have used both and post Hek nerf- yes, they feel very similar. The Hek has lost it's niche. It was a longer range, more accurate shotgun than the Strun. Even post nerf, the spread of the pellets is noticeably different and if you say it's not, you either haven't used them both enough or are just belligerent.

 

The Hek needs to be revamped. Sure, it still does more damage than the Strun but it no longer fills its intended purpose of being a mid-range, accurate shotgun. It wasn't lazy design that made these two guns feel similar, it was the nerf that took away the Hek's uniqueness.

 

This is exactly the problem. I even have numbers! See, when the shotgun damage dropoff was introduced, the dropoff would begin at 10m and there would be almost no damage past 20m -- we'll call this 10-20m -- and was applied for all shotguns. (Perhaps they overnerfed it intentionally so when the inevitable negative community reaction occurred they could put in something less-bad and get people to stop talking about it? If that was the plan, it mostly worked.)

 

Anyways, when they adjusted the dropoffs, we ended up with the following:

 

Boar (10-20m)

Strun (15-20m)

Hek (25-30m)

Bronco (would anyone even notice if this blunderbuss had dropoff? tell me if you do)

 

I guess the real question is, what constitutes the medium range that the Hek -- as per it's tooltip -- is designed for? I can Braton hipfire a Grineer well-enough from 50m, but perhaps that says more about the Braton. A 5m difference is effectively nothing. Hek is now just a Strun that is more accurate but lacking a polarity slot. Accuracy loses meaning the closer the target gets, it isn't like the Strun is inaccurate or can't be aimed at the head. The Strun has no problem doing damage to keep up with Hek, and with less effort since you aim for center of mass instead of whatever weakpoint. Also, there used to be multi-target damage from the spread, but when you get within about 10m melee is better than any shotgun for a variety of reasons (charges are ignore armor, can hit clumps of enemies more reliably, stunlock, innate damage multipliers, no ammo/reloads, etc.).

 

Shotguns used to be a lot more interesting, I don't use them anymore since the nerf. Boar needed a buff more than a nerf, and Strun was just fine. Hek need a nerf, but not like this. They only had to increase spread. Or maybe something more interesting, like have be relatively strong but consume 4x the ammo (and increase the magazine to match) to match how it has four-barrels and people expect rank 4 unlocks to be strong. Just, you know, any change that avoids harming the main reason to use it. I guess I'd be satisfied with a +10m to the shotguns' ranges, but that'd be really lame.

 

 

By the way, can someone tell me why shotguns even have their own category? They were fine lumping Snipetron and Latron in with Grakata.

Edited May 8, 2013 by PositronicSpleen

[smithf]

I still propose this. :c

Just a comment regarding Hek. Wouldn't it be better if the pellets are fired from the start just that the cone is narrower overall?

From this diagram, I get the impression that a macro-projectile is fired half way then split into smaller ones? Then it comes the question: what it I fired it into the face of something 0.5 m away?

[Baigan]

By the way, can someone tell me why shotguns even have their own category? They were fine lumping Snipetron and Latron in with Grakata.

 

I think because Shottys use slugs and not regular bullets. n.na

[smithf]

I think because Shottys use slugs and not regular bullets. n.na

I think so too. The damage method and thus the programming/game mechanics behind is probably too different. The diff between Latron and Grakata could be reduced to : one has a loop... ;)

[PositronicSpleen]

Shotguns fire shot, which is why they're called shotguns. If the Hek fired slugs it would be more like the Latron.

 

It was more of a rhetorical question than anything, the Bronco is a pistol after all. Why duplicate all the rifle mods for shotguns when they're almost identical? I half expected there to be some old, neglected promise of enough new shotguns or exclusive mods to justify it, or plans to split rifles into new categories. It's just strange to me is all.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Mods are there for that specific purpose.

 

All modded frames and weapons should feel more or less the same.

 

It will only differ if you have a different playstyle.

 

The weapons were designed so there is some metagame for players to figure out how to get rid or reduce their weaknesses and/or buff their strengths within the constraints of 60 mod capacity and their selection of mods available to them.

[Argoms]

Just a comment regarding Hek. Wouldn't it be better if the pellets are fired from the start just that the cone is narrower overall?

From this diagram, I get the impression that a macro-projectile is fired half way then split into smaller ones? Then it comes the question: what it I fired it into the face of something 0.5 m away?

It'd do 50-70ish damage instead of the full 140. Considering I'm fully able to one shot headshot light enemies with a latron (base 36 damage until a few days ago), I think it'd still be somewhat useful, just nowhere near as powerful as beyond 10m.

[PositronicSpleen]

Mods are there for that specific purpose.

 

All modded frames and weapons should feel more or less the same.

 

It will only differ if you have a different playstyle.

 

The weapons were designed so there is some metagame for players to figure out how to get rid or reduce their weaknesses and/or buff their strengths within the constraints of 60 mod capacity and their selection of mods available to them.

I absolutely disagree. There would be no point in having more than one weapon if they all ended up in the same place. There are enough unique features to rifles where it doesn't happen in that category, but all the creative effort in shotguns was basically "one shoots fast, one shoots farther, one is kind of in-between, and one is a pistol". Rifles has assault rifles, a heavy machine gun that spin up/down, sniper rifles, an armor piercing automatic harpoon gun, etc. You will never mistake a Gorgon for a Boltor.

 

I still propose this. :c

So the Hek would effectively increase spread with range at a non-linear rate? They could just curve away like the Boltor bolts. It's also not really an improvement over the Hek's current state, or the Strun, provided those ranges are accurate.

Edited May 9, 2013 by PositronicSpleen

[taiiat]

i'm sure there's other changes that could and probably should happen to these shotguns, but:

 

the Boar should be a similar type of weapon to http://metrovideogame.wikia.com/wiki/Heavy_Automatic_Shotgun'>Metro 2033s' automatic shotgun. lots and lots of shot being fired, all the time. Dakka with a side of more Dakka. just lots of shooting. 

 

the Strun should function like the average basic pump action shotgun, reasonably effective shots, decent rate of fire, decent reload, etc.

 

the Hek, though, tbh probably should have less pellets than it currently does, but have each pellet considerably more powerful, to show the Hek as if it was a shotgun firing purely 00 shot compared to the Strun which would be purely firing buckshot. 

[Grilleds]

I think because Shottys use slugs and not regular bullets. n.na

 

Shotguns fire shot, which is why they're called shotguns. If the Hek fired slugs it would be more like the Latron.

Actually you are both right. Shotgun's fire either "lead shots"  or "slugs", but the "bullets" loaded into the shotgun are called "shells". In this game, the shotguns don't seem to be using slugs though.

 

I'm not really a gun expert though so I could be wrong.

[Davoodoo]

I have used both and post Hek nerf- yes, they feel very similar. The Hek has lost it's niche. It was a longer range, more accurate shotgun than the Strun. Even post nerf, the spread of the pellets is noticeably different and if you say it's not, you either haven't used them both enough or are just belligerent.

 

The Hek needs to be revamped. Sure, it still does more damage than the Strun but it no longer fills its intended purpose of being a mid-range, accurate shotgun. It wasn't lazy design that made these two guns feel similar, it was the nerf that took away the Hek's uniqueness.

 

Not only hek was better than strun at longer ranges also it bested it on point blank. So for hek uniqueness we should sacrifice uniqueness of strun?? For hek to be unique faloff should be moved to 35m and dmg should be halved then it would be unique. Sux for close range but is effective at long. Or we can always double dmg on boar and strun.