Math On Why The Synoid Gammacor Is Massively Nerfed

[matrixEXO]

I think a nerf was needed, it was simply TOO good (it was/is one of my favorite weapons simply because of its unique nature). However, The nerf was a bit heavy handed. The ammo expense is just too great. 7.5x is really too much, but a nerf in the right direction. All that would be needed is say 5x or 4x ammo consumption and it would be about in-line with what it should be.

7.5x is alright but the main issue is that they didn't mention reducing the damage per tick, which they knew it would immediately kick up a big issue. I don't mind a 7.5x insane DPS Synoid since you would not use it as much as you do right now but you can still make some nice things happen (killing lvl 60 Bombard with the magazine and without CP and Corrosive). Drains a lot to be used against normal enemies with reckless abandon but really packs it's punches when aiming to kill the major heavyweights.... except they didn't let it be.

[onemoonlight]

Wraith twin vipers can reach +60k dps, regular vipers +50k; that's a lot, right?

 

With 80 rounds a second ROF. So OP.

 

If only there was a drawba-- oh wait, there is a drawback - there are couple of drawbacks.

 

You lose all of your ammo reserve faster than it takes to read this post, the cone of fire is awful if you spray it, status chance aint that high and sustained dps isnt all that hot compared to other twin auto pistol options.

 

I dont see people dropping 100 threads a day, stating that vipers need a buff - because it's still a decent secondary - secondaries arent there to take the role of primaries, let that thought sink into your heads.

 

Synoid got put in line with other secondaries that can achieve high burst dps values - and that means it has one of the drawbacks that burst dps weapons have. Compared to couple of drawbacks that they usually have. ONE. And you fucks keep complaining. Grow the F*** up. Let it go and walk it off.

[HandsomeSorcerer]

Wraith twin vipers can reach +60k dps, regular vipers +50k; that's a lot, right?

 

With 80 rounds a second ROF. So OP.

 

If only there was a drawba-- oh wait, there is a drawback - there are couple of drawbacks.

 

You lose all of your ammo reserve faster than it takes to read this post, the cone of fire is awful if you spray it, status chance aint that high and sustained dps isnt all that hot compared to other twin auto pistol options.

 

I dont see people dropping 100 threads a day, stating that vipers need a buff - because it's still a decent secondary - secondaries arent there to take the role of primaries, let that thought sink into your heads.

 

Synoid got put in line with other secondaries that can achieve high burst dps values - and that means it has one of the drawbacks that burst dps weapons have. Compared to couple of drawbacks that they usually have. ONE. And you fucks keep complaining. Grow the F*** up. Let it go and walk it off.

Viper, who give a S#&$ about vipers?

The rest of your post is trash. Secondary weapons are not meant to repalce primaries? Really?  Detron, Kohmak, Brakk, cestras do a pretty good job at replacing primaries.

Furthermore, there are identical mods for both primaries and secondaries, which implies they very much should hold on their own.

Besdies, do you have any evidence to support your claim? Just a guess right?

 

Also, way to go on generalizing a problem with a fallacy. The sudacor is not "Inline" with other fast firerate weapons. It consumes too much ammo, is close range and has no advantage over a cestra or even its original variant, the regular gammacor.

I just built the regular gammacor. I can play it the same way I used to paly with the sudacor. It does less damage, but I can still pretty much enjoy keeping that thing firing without having to worry about ammo. Amaizing eh?

 

This pretty much means, go chill and stop giving "Feedback" when you dont give a damn abiout the sudacor.

 

Edit:

You know what. Ill come back in 2 months or so and see if DE ruined Everything that used to be fun.

Meanwhile, you balance heroes can keep saving the day by whining more about nerfs.

I am sure, in time, everything with be at the level of the damage of the furis and there will be teleporting invincible enemies like Grineer Manics everywhere.

 

Then you can ride that blanace horse all day long. Have fun killing that level 40 or 50 Manic or Bombard with your furis, viper.

Edited March 22, 2015 by HandsomeSorcerer

[fatpig84]

Honestly a ROF of 10 and having the same damage as a regular Gammacore would be sufficient.

You still do 2x the DPS of the regular Gammacore. While consuming more ammo.

 

But your ammo drain is still at an acceptable level. So imo DE really drop the bomb on this.

 

And speaking of which, if it is going to keep its current stats, at least give it as much ammo as the Akzani (furies, vipers and stiletto should get the same treatment too).

Edited March 22, 2015 by fatpig84

[[DE]Momaw]

I dont see people dropping 100 threads a day, stating that vipers need a buff - because it's still a decent secondary

 

I actually quite like the single viper with the viper augment, but I use it for the look and feel, not the raw power. People don't complain about the viper because nobody expects it to be endgame material. It's a cheap weapon that anybody can get pretty easily. They do expect the syndicate weapons that cost 100K reputation points to be endgame.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Momaw

[IronRoby]

I dont see people dropping 100 threads a day, stating that vipers need a buff - because it's still a decent secondary - secondaries arent there to take the role of primaries, let that thought sink into your heads.

 

Synoid got put in line with other secondaries that can achieve high burst dps values - and that means it has one of the drawbacks that burst dps weapons have. Compared to couple of drawbacks that they usually have. ONE. And you fucks keep complaining. Grow the F*** up. Let it go and walk it off.

 

Maybe, just maybe it was because Vipers and other weapons like that started out like it and you knew what you would get when investing into them? What they did to Synoid basically made it into a totally different weapon with different role and appeal.

 

When I had to grind 100,000 rep for it and then put a potato and four forma into it, I did not do it for a secondary like Viper, I did it for an ammo efficient continuous beam "endgame" secondary, an upgrade to my old Gammacor, but basically occupying the same role, just better, not what it is now.

 

I sort of even anticipated the nerf, I just thought DE would, like, you know, just do the sane and predictable thing and just lower the damage to 150 or something, triple the original Gammacor , or, f***, even to 100, double the normal Gammacor, at the worst case nerf, but leaving the base utility and function of the weapon the same. I was willing to put a potato in it with that risk in mind.

 

I did not put a potato on it expecting it to become a basically totally different weapon. 

Edited March 22, 2015 by IronRoby

[onemoonlight]

that... actually is a really good argument, i have nothing to say to that

 

actually i think im gonna jump ships just from that

[Heidrek]

It's like Acrid all over again good bye perfectly good potato and forma, and HELLO RAGE. WOOT T_T. <-- My tears of blood

[ShardsSuperior]

Maybe, just maybe it was because Vipers and other weapons like that started out like it and you knew what you would get when investing into them? What they did to Synoid basically made it into a totally different weapon with different role and appeal.

 

When I had to grind 100,000 rep for it and then put a potato and four forma into it, I did not do it for a secondary like Viper, I did it for an ammo efficient continuous beam "endgame" secondary, an upgrade to my old Gammacor, but basically occupying the same role, just better, not what it is now.

 

I sort of even anticipated the nerf, I just thought DE would, like, you know, just do the sane and predictable thing and just lower the damage to 150 or something, triple the original Gammacor , or, f***, even to 100, double the normal Gammacor, at the worst case nerf, but leaving the base utility and function of the weapon the same. I was willing to put a potato in it with that risk in mind.

 

I did not put a potato on it expecting it to become a basically totally different weapon. 

You think it's better to half a weapon's damage than to just force a mod slot into Ammo Mutation instead?

[TribalSoul]

You think it's better to half a weapon's damage than to just force a mod slot into Ammo Mutation instead?

Good luck making Synoid viable in end game content with just an "Ammo Mutation".

[IronRoby]

You think it's better to half a weapon's damage than to just force a mod slot into Ammo Mutation instead?

 

Yes, it's better to halve a weapon's damage than to turn it into a new weapon with a new role, because why then not just make a new weapon in the first place? Thers's nothing left of the old but name and model.

 

And you are saying that to someone who happily slots in an Ammo Mutation when it's necessary or even just utility-convenient. I'm using Ammo Mut on both of my Boltor and Soma Primes without complaint. And using Ammo Mut on them makes it so that I know I can finish any mission without running out of ammo.

 

Guess what, my test build to try to salvage the Synoid used both Ammo Mut and dropped Lethal Torrent and I was still losing ammo faster then gaining it back, when trying to use it in its old continuous sweep beam function, the way it was originally intended to be used, same as the original Gammacor, like all the Syndicate weapons are improved variants fulfilling the same role.

 

If you reduced the fire rate of old Synoid to 1 (thus halving its damage), you would basically have a Quanta Secondary and I would have been totally fine with that.

 

Instead we got another ammo-devouring Secondary, in a continuous beam form that is not actually practical to use as a freaking sweeping beam weapon, but should apparently used as a burst fire automatic SMG that shoots bullet bursts, like we already have so many. Why even keep it a continuous beam then that you can lead by sweeping? Because it was originally meant to be like that, function like a different weapon from what it is now? Ups.

 

I have heard people complaining that they saw other people just continuously sweeping Synoid around. That's how you are supposed to use a continuous beam weapon, have they never seen Quanta? The DPS should just be lower to balance it out. So instead suddenly of changing a role of the weapon, damage should have been balanced instead.

 

Instead we have a situation where DE was to cowardly to technically lower DPS, so it could have some people defending it by saying how "DPS is the same!",  - because unfortunately DPS is the only thing many people seem to care about - instead of just balancing the damage but leaving Synoid to be the type of weapon it was actually supposed to be.

 

Basically, ask yourself, when balancing a weapon, was there any good reason to suddenly turn a continuous sweep beam weapon into what's now supposed to be used as a burst fire weapon to be able to manage ammo, instead of just lowering the freaking damage? Any besides being able to say that they "technically" didn't lower damage and being afraid that DPS on paper is all people care about?

 

Do you like Quanta? Many players do. If Quanta had started out with 440 damage or 2x ROF, would it have been better to give it the current Synoid treatment or... just halve the damage to 220 and ROF to 1x, the way it is now, but keep the weapon actually in the same role, function and utility it had?

Edited March 23, 2015 by IronRoby

[CheckYourSix]

Was trying to use the SG this weekend on some T4S runs. Was mostly worthless to use unless I fell down or against Vor.

 

Why? I was playing as a Greedy Mag and was using my pull more than I was shooting. The Nekros and myself were doing our best to keep the air and loot and ammo coming. A couple of times I was forced to switch to the SG I ran out of ammo fast. This was with an ammo mutation mod, creeping bullseye, and pistol scav on along with a Nekros and myself pulling everything to me. IT CAN NOT KEEP UP and be viable. You run out of ammo so fast you basically are only able to kill 2-5 enemies (depending upon their hps) once reaching 50+ minutes and that's it. It takes another few minutes to even get enough ammo to start firing again. Another few minutes in a T4S is basically a death sentence. Luckily I have a forma'd up Boltor Prime to use, and I wasn't expected to be the main dps dealer (although I was still at the top). We never made it to 60 any time and always had to bail early where before 60+ was doable, if hard, with me using an SG and other members using their good weapons/abilities.

 

My friend has forma'd up his regular one and says he likes it much better than the SG now. He has put 5 forma's in the regular gammacor and while the DPS isn't quite the same as the SG, it is when factoring in the fact that I had to strip a ton of dps with using ammo mutation, pistol scav, and creeping bullseye to keep from going OOA. Which those didn't work and most of the time I was OOA with the SG and doing zip for dps with it.

 

Realistic dps of the new nerfed SG is in the toilet. It's okay for bursting down a boss that isn't moving to fast and has a small target area. That's about it. There are plenty of weapons that are capable of that and do it better. It's junk.

[Exaltas]

I keep seeing people say stuff like "just slap an ammo mod on it". Well I did.

 

And other than something like a survival mission with a nekros, it just doesn't cut it. Was doing a T4 interception and I could hardly use the synoid at all there was so little ammo. Vor showed up and I unloaded all its ammo on him and then wasn't able to use the damn thing for the rest of the mission.

 

Yes, it needed a nerf. I just wish it wasn't a 7.5x ammo consumption nerf.

[Heidrek]

Was trying to use the SG this weekend on some T4S runs. Was mostly worthless to use unless I fell down or against Vor.

 

Why? I was playing as a Greedy Mag and was using my pull more than I was shooting. The Nekros and myself were doing our best to keep the air and loot and ammo coming. A couple of times I was forced to switch to the SG I ran out of ammo fast. This was with an ammo mutation mod, creeping bullseye, and pistol scav on along with a Nekros and myself pulling everything to me. IT CAN NOT KEEP UP and be viable. You run out of ammo so fast you basically are only able to kill 2-5 enemies (depending upon their hps) once reaching 50+ minutes and that's it. It takes another few minutes to even get enough ammo to start firing again. Another few minutes in a T4S is basically a death sentence. Luckily I have a forma'd up Boltor Prime to use, and I wasn't expected to be the main dps dealer (although I was still at the top). We never made it to 60 any time and always had to bail early where before 60+ was doable, if hard, with me using an SG and other members using their good weapons/abilities.

 

My friend has forma'd up his regular one and says he likes it much better than the SG now. He has put 5 forma's in the regular gammacor and while the DPS isn't quite the same as the SG, it is when factoring in the fact that I had to strip a ton of dps with using ammo mutation, pistol scav, and creeping bullseye to keep from going OOA. Which those didn't work and most of the time I was OOA with the SG and doing zip for dps with it.

 

Realistic dps of the new nerfed SG is in the toilet. It's okay for bursting down a boss that isn't moving to fast and has a small target area. That's about it. There are plenty of weapons that are capable of that and do it better. It's junk.

Nerf hammers and powercreep DE's specialty lol. let's see who rages over the next strongest weapon in game.

[tr4nz]

They nerf it like literally, but they forget they have PvP and actually solo play missions etc.. but fk it maaate

[DAFIRE]

Guys, please,it's just history repeating itself,and as each time,when 99% of the community uses That weapon and ONLY that never ever changing or using anything other than that,DE comes and says "you have 220 weapons for a damn reason" and nerfs it to oblivion,just like they did with acrid and many others,

The fun thing is, that you will whine for maximum 2 weeks,then forget that weapon even exists

If you want to 6 forma something don't do it on a weapon that is used by the 90% of the community

If people didn't massively start using ONLY that weapon it wouldn't have received a nerf

[birdei]

Guys, please,it's just history repeating itself,and as each time,when 99% of the community uses That weapon and ONLY that never ever changing or using anything other than that,DE comes and says "you have 220 weapons for a damn reason" and nerfs it to oblivion,just like they did with acrid and many others,

The fun thing is, that you will whine for maximum 2 weeks,then forget that weapon even exists

If you want to 6 forma something don't do it on a weapon that is used by the 90% of the community

If people didn't massively start using ONLY that weapon it wouldn't have received a nerf

 

well then how about DE stop being lazy and look into why the community is only using a select few weapons that I can count on one hand. Every freaking minor update, there is always one to two new weapons that gets released. Ya there are a lot of weapons in the game but almost every single one sucks donkey balls. How about making the weapons we have already useful instead of keep coming up new mastery rank fodder points.

 

You know what I would really like to see DE do, learn something from Good Grind Gears. Every time they do a major update that affects the tree skill, they reset the tree skill for everyone. This lets the players to adjust to the new changes. So how about every time DE does some major changes to a frame/weapon, it gets reset with the potatoe/forma refunded back to the player. It sucks to have to reforma it again but if it sucks, players can use those items on something else.

[Sakatchi]

Hi, I'm going to write a book too k? K.

 

First off, I perfer telos to synoid, so this nerf dosent really effect me in the slightest. Yet, it does. Do you know why?

 

Choice. Even though I chose telos over synoid, I could always choose to bring it along to speed up a troublesome mission, or if I just wanted to spam vaubans stuff all over the place, I could do that. Now, I dont have that choice, and that bugs me.

 

Why is this bad?

 

Its very bad cause its yet another weapon that was complained about and nerfed. This in itself is awful, because that effort could have been used to improve countless other things instead of just one weapon.

 

Example: you could have complained about snipers being bad, or shotguns fall off, or kubros being basicly doors and needing a rework, or how sentenels could use a heavy buff just to be on par with dogs, or better mele, or the litteral dozen older weapons that we shelve on a constant basis as mastery fodder cause they just dont do S#&amp;&#036; to the new content.

 

But no, the concept of synoid being strong offended your very soul, and it had to be changed and homogized, and all that effort burnt on altering a single weapon for a arbitrary ideal of balance, while ironicaly ignoring the other things that actually needed balance.

 

In before powercreep.

[zebar1313]

I stopped doing Math on this game long ago. I used before nerf melted enemies all day with little worries about ammo even holding down the button. Now I have to actually aim and shoot instead of just running around free firing. That was the point of the nerf. As far as being difficult to acquire... I've handed out dozens. If trading wasn't a thing then yes, maybe it would be hard to acquire, but nah its pretty common at this point.

[[DE]Momaw]

yet another weapon that was complained about and nerfed

 

Let's be honest here, the Synoid was overpowered.  It did need to be turned down. But not turned down to the point that it's only arguably better than the weapon it's supposedly an upgrade of.  At this point, giving Synoid the same 50 damage/5 per second profile as the standard Gammacor would be a buff.

[Sakatchi]

Let's be honest here, the Synoid was overpowered. It did need to be turned down. But not turned down to the point that it's only arguably better than the weapon it's supposedly an upgrade of. At this point, giving Synoid the same 50 damage/5 per second profile as the standard Gammacor would be a buff.

My point about that energy used towards that nerf, and how it couldve been applied in better places still stands.

For me personally, I want things to get that strong. Why? So we can have harder maps and actually fight in them with out screaming about how the chalenge is overpowered and unbalanced.

It would be a new zone, new content, new bosses, new gear, new enemies, new opportunities.

Instead we keep trying to balance stuff around the old star map and its same 5 missions, and tower 1-3.

We dont talk about tower 4 though, cause its too overpowered, and if we nerf all the guns it'll magicly get balanced right guys?

[ShardsSuperior]

 

Good luck making Synoid viable in end game content with just an "Ammo Mutation".

Even now, Synoid's dmg/ammo is still higher than Soma Prime's. That is, Synoid Gammacor's ammo economy is still better than Soma Prime's. (Or at least, not that much worse.)

 

Which brings me to the next point:

 

Yes, it's better to halve a weapon's damage than to turn it into a new weapon with a new role, because why then not just make a new weapon in the first place? Thers's nothing left of the old but name and model.

 

And you are saying that to someone who happily slots in an Ammo Mutation when it's necessary or even just utility-convenient. I'm using Ammo Mut on both of my Boltor and Soma Primes without complaint. And using Ammo Mut on them makes it so that I know I can finish any mission without running out of ammo.

 

Guess what, my test build to try to salvage the Synoid used both Ammo Mut and dropped Lethal Torrent and I was still losing ammo faster then gaining it back, when trying to use it in its old continuous sweep beam function, the way it was originally intended to be used, same as the original Gammacor, like all the Syndicate weapons are improved variants fulfilling the same role.

 

If you reduced the fire rate of old Synoid to 1 (thus halving its damage), you would basically have a Quanta Secondary and I would have been totally fine with that.

 

Instead we got another ammo-devouring Secondary, in a continuous beam form that is not actually practical to use as a freaking sweeping beam weapon, but should apparently used as a burst fire automatic SMG that shoots bullet bursts, like we already have so many. Why even keep it a continuous beam then that you can lead by sweeping? Because it was originally meant to be like that, function like a different weapon from what it is now? Ups.

 

I have heard people complaining that they saw other people just continuously sweeping Synoid around. That's how you are supposed to use a continuous beam weapon, have they never seen Quanta? The DPS should just be lower to balance it out. So instead suddenly of changing a role of the weapon, damage should have been balanced instead.

 

Instead we have a situation where DE was to cowardly to technically lower DPS, so it could have some people defending it by saying how "DPS is the same!",  - because unfortunately DPS is the only thing many people seem to care about - instead of just balancing the damage but leaving Synoid to be the type of weapon it was actually supposed to be.

 

Basically, ask yourself, when balancing a weapon, was there any good reason to suddenly turn a continuous sweep beam weapon into what's now supposed to be used as a burst fire weapon to be able to manage ammo, instead of just lowering the freaking damage? Any besides being able to say that they "technically" didn't lower damage and being afraid that DPS on paper is all people care about?

 

Do you like Quanta? Many players do. If Quanta had started out with 440 damage or 2x ROF, would it have been better to give it the current Synoid treatment or... just halve the damage to 220 and ROF to 1x, the way it is now, but keep the weapon actually in the same role, function and utility it had?

In other words, you don't like having to actually manage your ammo? Practice trigger discipline?

This was the best possible nerf DE could have given to such a weapon. Burst damage does not change, and unless you always reload in the open, nothing much has changed except how long you could use this beast of a weapon with the same build as before.

 

Also, can you blame them for not touching DPS? Time and time again, the most vocal members of this community have proved that numbers on the paper are the defining elements of a weapon. Not high enough numbers? Mastery fodder. Now, they make a fair change that does not affect damage overall, balancing a weapon, and people are still angry.

 

On a different note, Synoid Gammacor is still the best automatic (as in, held-trigger) secondary.

Edited March 24, 2015 by ShardsSuperior

[Marthrym]

Prime example of knee jerk reaction, in great part due to Rakta users crying Synoid was OP and their gun sucked. They were right though, it was OP, and the Rakta used to suck...

But DE, as always, went overboard with the nerfhammer. First the syndicate effect nerf, way overdone. Now the weapon itself gets a nerf, overdone too. All I hope is that they will cut back partially ammo consumption. Is it me or their all and end all solution to power creep is overdoing it and then taking their sweet time to come back on it? Seriously, what's wrong with you devs?^^'

Edited March 24, 2015 by Marthrym

[Deathman_Kenshi]

Guys, please,it's just history repeating itself,and as each time,when 99% of the community uses That weapon and ONLY that never ever changing or using anything other than that,DE comes and says "you have 220 weapons for a damn reason" and nerfs it to oblivion,just like they did with acrid and many others,

The fun thing is, that you will whine for maximum 2 weeks,then forget that weapon even exists

If you want to 6 forma something don't do it on a weapon that is used by the 90% of the community

If people didn't massively start using ONLY that weapon it wouldn't have received a nerf

Than they should balance more weapons to be usable in end game content

And if you start with survival 60+ is not how weapons are rated

Than look at raid and its enemies they are on 60+ difficulty

But ok I guess everyone goes back to Boltor prime so it will be next one as 90% of community use it already ?

[DAFIRE]

Has Boltor Prime been nerfed like SG since it came out until people switched to SG? No? then it's unlikely it's getting a nerf,

These type of nerfs happen in the first months of "Omfg 1 hit 10 heavy gunner lvl 150 with 1 sweep"(exaggeration.....maybe!?)