Math On Why The Synoid Gammacor Is Massively Nerfed

[Nobunigun]

My argument is that it's a laser pointer..... With a short battery life now :\

 

I got it the day it was released before the buff, and had two forma on it because of it's looks and slow fire rate, because I like laser pointers... Then it got buffed and gave me another reason to be a proud Cephlon Suda. I guess I'll use the gammacore as my goto laser pointer. 

 

 

Pardon my Grammar.

[CheckYourSix]

 

 

Even now, Synoid's dmg/ammo is still higher than Soma Prime's. That is, Synoid Gammacor's ammo economy is still better than Soma Prime's. (Or at least, not that much worse.)

 

Which brings me to the next point:

 

In other words, you don't like having to actually manage your ammo? Practice trigger discipline?

This was the best possible nerf DE could have given to such a weapon. Burst damage does not change, and unless you always reload in the open, nothing much has changed except how long you could use this beast of a weapon with the same build as before.

 

 

 

No, Soma Prime has better ammo economy that the current SG. It's 15 base fire rate, same as SG, with a magazine size of 200 which is greater than SG at 150, and ammo capacity of 800 which is greater than 450 for SG. Making the Soma Prime have a total unmodded ammo set of 1000 rounds compared to 600.

 

The Soma Prime also benefit better from crit mods as opposed to fire rate mods unlike the SG for dps boosting. You get far more dps gains from the Soma Prime when building it for crits. Which means the base 15 fire rate of the Soma Prime is never going to get touched unless the user decides to through on a shred which tends to be the only fire rate mod tossed on which increases the fire rate from 15 to 18.75. The SG benefits greatly in DPS from fire rate mods and that means the ammo economy at base gets even worse.

 

So even with shred, the Soma Prime is 18.75 for 200 rounds which is 10.67 seconds of continuous fire.

SG with with 48.3 fire rate and 150 mag is 3.1 seconds of continuous fire.

 

Do you not understand how drastic that difference is? One can no simple "practice better fire control" with a fire rate that high. Even barely tapping the SG burns through 15-40 rounds depending upon lag and latency. Which brings about the problem of actually missing a target which costs the SG far worse in terms of DPS than other guns now.

 

You really don't do the math on those weapons before making comments like that do you?

Edited March 24, 2015 by CheckYourSix

[dragonkingdx]

Guys, please,it's just history repeating itself,and as each time,when 99% of the community uses That weapon and ONLY that never ever changing or using anything other than that,DE comes and says "you have 220 weapons for a damn reason" and nerfs it to oblivion,just like they did with acrid and many others,

The fun thing is, that you will whine for maximum 2 weeks,then forget that weapon even exists

If you want to 6 forma something don't do it on a weapon that is used by the 90% of the community

If people didn't massively start using ONLY that weapon it wouldn't have received a nerf

 

Just a question where was DE then when soma and boltor prime were the most used? just saying if that is the logic you setup every weapon that people use on majority should be nerfed into the ground then have someone bury the remains then defecate on the grave.

 

Has Boltor Prime been nerfed like SG since it came out until people switched to SG? No? then it's unlikely it's getting a nerf,

These type of nerfs happen in the first months of "Omfg 1 hit 10 heavy gunner lvl 150 with 1 sweep"(exaggeration.....maybe!?)

 

Again by your logic it should BP was heavily used and overused when it came out and still carries that torch today. So was soma/soma prime. If we are nerfing overused weapons those need to take a hit too.

 

 

By far SG was OP and needed a nerf and it would have been justified IF it was done correctly.

 

This just made the weapon next to useless. Sure good for an enemy now and again but your gonna be wasting time having it equipped with ammo mutation for a while just to restock what ammo you used. DE destroyed the purpose of it being a beam weapon. That is what it comes down to. They could have reduced the damage and increased the ammo consumption slightly possibly even give it a shorter range and become less damaging the further the enemy is away from the base. But increasing its ammo consumption to absurd amounts is going too far.

[CheckYourSix]

The main reason the SG was OP compared to other weapons was the damage types really in my opinion. It was the only weapon you can get Magnetic, Corrosive, and Blast all on one weapon. That gives you great damage versus shields with Magnetic and no damage resistance to anything with the other two typs and usually bonus damage. Which means the SG was able to hit harder with no resistances by any unit in the game. No other gun really can do that at all.

 

On top of that, it's a secondary which tend to have higher base stats than primaries because they tend to be shorter range. Which is strange because secondary mods add far more damage than primary mods. For those that don't seem to remember, here is the comparison of damage for mods.

 

Hornet Strike 220% damage >> Serration 165% damage

Barrel Diffusion 120% multishot >> Split Chamber 90% multishot

Lethal Torrent 60% multishot and 60% fire rate >> well nothing on the primary side

 

Those 3 mods alone on any seconday boost secondary weapon DPS far above any primary weapon regardless of base stats. So what are the major differences?

 

Primaries tend to be more accurate at longer ranges and more effective at longer ranges on average in most gun to gun comparisons. This lets somes primaries make use of Heavy Caliber mod to eek out a bit more damage at the cost of that better accuracy they inherently have on average over secondaries.

 

That is all well and good unless you have a 100% accurate beam weapon secondary. Then the accuracy comparison between primaries and secondaries don't matter.

 

So SG was a 100% accurate weapon with the inherent high base damage that most secondaries enjoy over primaries along with the better dps mods for secondaries. On top of that with magnetic as the base damage type, it allows for a triple damage type combination of Magnetic, Corrosive, and Blast which has virtually zero damage falloff for that damage type combination. The main draw back to the weapon was only the limited range, which most good players, even most mediocre players, could easily compensate for.

 

That basically put the SG as unarguably one of the best, if not the best, weapon in the game. Fair enough that this brings the weapon into the spotlight for potential changes.

 

DE then has 3 things they can possibly do as a response.

 

1) Nothing. DE could have left it as a best in slot item in the game. Which makes players tend to gravitate to the best in slot item over time and leads to lesser build diversity. The merits of which are debatable but are what they are.

 

2) Buff other weapons to the level of SG's usefullness and effectiveness. This brings back diversity as now there are other options for players to pick that are as effective. The problem would be the fact of how many weapons to buff, and how big of a buff for each weapon is required to expand the pool of effective weapons competing for best in slot status. This is a bit more complex and thus has more room for error in terms of over buffing unintentionally a different weapon. Which then makes people cry out that the new over buffed OP weapon really should be left alone and other weapons brought up. This leads to power creep in a game. Again power creep is neither good nor bad, but a design decision that should be calculated when adding content of any sort to the game.

 

3) Nerf the weapon down. Nerfing the weapon to be on par with other weapons in the game also increases the build diversity of a game like this by making there potentially be more than 1 best in slot item. The major drawbacks for this approach is over-nerfing the item which leads to still a potentially small pool of diverse equally compelling items to use as the new over nerfed item is no longer a compelling item to be used. It also now can make content that was previously hard but doable now out of reach of a larger portion of the player base if there are no other items that could effectively fill the previous slot of the item as it was before nerfed.

 

That is basically was DE could have done and DE chose option 3 as we all now. The problem now is determining if the nerf was a good nerf or an over nerf. My math and game play experience, as well as what I can tell to be the majority of the player base, feel the nerf was too much. The weapon now doesn't even compete with any other high tier weapons out there to be a competitive end game item usable against the hardest of content.

 

There were plenty of potential ways to nerf the SG, and the one picked by DE is in my opinion, along with many others, to be the worst of the possible nerfs that could have been done to it.

Edited March 24, 2015 by CheckYourSix

[CheckYourSix]

wow I hit edit and it did a quote.

Edited March 24, 2015 by CheckYourSix

[LazyKnight]

By far SG was OP and needed a nerf and it would have been justified IF it was done correctly.

Doing something like lowering its mag size and reducing it fire-rate would have been reasonable. There was no real reason it need its huge magazine to start with, and lowering its fire-rate would have lowered its DPS and damage without ruining its ammo efficiency. There are so many ways the nerf could have targeted magazine cycle time, as well. 

 

Any pistol that has a modified base damage of less than 30 is a sub level 50 weapon. There is no need for more Twin vipers or even a Twin Gremlin's damage level, they fall off so quickly with NPC scaling that they are low level gated weapons.

 

Edit: many typos

Edited March 25, 2015 by LazyKnight

[CheckYourSix]

Doing something like lowering it's mag size and reducing it fire-rate would have been reasonable. There was no real reason it need it huge magazine to start with, and it lowering it fire-rate would have lowered it's DPS and damage without ruining it's ammo efficiency. There are so many ways the nerf could have targeted magazine cycle time, as well. 

 

Any pistol that has a modified base damage of less than 30 is sub level 50 weapon. There is no need for more Twin vipers or even a Twin Gremlin's damage level, they fall off so quickly with NPC scaling that that are low level gated weapons.

 

Base Gammacor is 5 fire rate with 50 magazine. SG was originally 2 fire rate with 75 magazine. The magazine size was fine.

[LazyKnight]

Base Gammacor is 5 fire rate with 50 magazine. SG was originally 2 fire rate with 75 magazine. The magazine size was fine.

As something to nerf, beside ammo, lowering the time before reload would have increased cycle time thus lowering sustained DPS. This is the type of nerf DE could have done and it would have only made players see the reload animation more often. 

 

The nerf they just did, targeted the magazine cycle time via the ammo and it is not debatable. They did so in a way that makes ammo consumed at a greater rate, yet they could have got the same result by modification to the size of the magazine + reload.

 

DE did not consider Synoid's sustained DPS to be fine, and they did nerf the cycle time, so by their standards it was not fine.

Edited March 24, 2015 by LazyKnight

[CheckYourSix]

As something to nerf, beside ammo, lowering the time before reload would have increased cycle time thus lowering sustained DPS. This is the type of nerf DE could have done and it would have only made players see the reload animation more often. 

 

The nerf they just did, targeted the magazine cycle time via the ammo and it is not debatable. They did so in a way that makes ammo consumed at a greater rate, yet they could have got the same result by modification to the size of the magazine + reload.

 

DE did not consider Synoid's sustained DPS to be fine, and they did nerf the cycle time, so by their standards it was not fine.

 

 

As a continuous beam weapon, ammo efficiency and large magazine is fine. If the problem was total sustained DPS or burst dps there are other ways to adjust those values.

 

What was done was to nerf the total effective sustain DPS of the weapon by a large chunk. Up to 99% but probably more around 80%-90%  to the overall effective sustained DPS with the nerf they did. It was poorly thought out and implemented.

[ShardsSuperior]

No, Soma Prime has better ammo economy that the current SG. It's 15 base fire rate, same as SG, with a magazine size of 200 which is greater than SG at 150, and ammo capacity of 800 which is greater than 450 for SG. Making the Soma Prime have a total unmodded ammo set of 1000 rounds compared to 600.

 

The Soma Prime also benefit better from crit mods as opposed to fire rate mods unlike the SG for dps boosting. You get far more dps gains from the Soma Prime when building it for crits. Which means the base 15 fire rate of the Soma Prime is never going to get touched unless the user decides to through on a shred which tends to be the only fire rate mod tossed on which increases the fire rate from 15 to 18.75. The SG benefits greatly in DPS from fire rate mods and that means the ammo economy at base gets even worse.

 

So even with shred, the Soma Prime is 18.75 for 200 rounds which is 10.67 seconds of continuous fire.

SG with with 48.3 fire rate and 150 mag is 3.1 seconds of continuous fire.

 

Do you not understand how drastic that difference is? One can no simple "practice better fire control" with a fire rate that high. Even barely tapping the SG burns through 15-40 rounds depending upon lag and latency. Which brings about the problem of actually missing a target which costs the SG far worse in terms of DPS than other guns now.

 

You really don't do the math on those weapons before making comments like that do you?

I very much understand how drastic that difference is. However, I don't feel it because I know not to put fire rate mods on a weapon with already a huge fire rate.

I mean, this should be obvious. Putting fire rate on a weapon with high fire rate makes the fire rate uncontrollable. Did I even have to say it?

 

Basically, I just didn't realize anyone would still put Anemic Agility on that weapon now.

For me, Soma Prime: http://goo.gl/NvzJxo

This is Heavy Caliber build, which does have the highest damage per shot, even if each shot doesn't always land.

It has 1427 damage per shot.

 

Synoid Gammacor: 1476 damage per shot.

http://goo.gl/qFc8JN

And that's with a pinpoint laser beam to shoot with.

 

And note the much, MUCH higher both Burst DPS AND Sustained DPS. How is this even a contest? Even after the nerf, Synoid Gammacor far outpaces Soma Prime, which is NOT a weak weapon.

[FloraGreen]

I see that the problem for many is that they only take burst DPS in perspective for this weapon. Sometimes people mention sustained dps, but in the wrong way.

We need to ask if the gun is sustainable in highlevel survival and defense... and the conclusion is that it is close to worthless. You cannot kill anything endgame with this gun anymore.

A lot of people in the comments above find nerfs fine as long as you (DE) don't touch their dear boltor- and soma primes. We need more diversity in lategame weapons not less.

 

ps. a hint to those people who wasted real money and a lot of time on the Synoid gammacor, please make DE feel that playing fools with people in that way is bad business.

[Deathman_Kenshi]

I very much understand how drastic that difference is. However, I don't feel it because I know not to put fire rate mods on a weapon with already a huge fire rate.

I mean, this should be obvious. Putting fire rate on a weapon with high fire rate makes the fire rate uncontrollable. Did I even have to say it?

 

Basically, I just didn't realize anyone would still put Anemic Agility on that weapon now.

For me, Soma Prime: http://goo.gl/NvzJxo

This is Heavy Caliber build, which does have the highest damage per shot, even if each shot doesn't always land.

It has 1427 damage per shot.

 

Synoid Gammacor: 1476 damage per shot.

http://goo.gl/qFc8JN

And that's with a pinpoint laser beam to shoot with.

 

And note the much, MUCH higher both Burst DPS AND Sustained DPS. How is this even a contest? Even after the nerf, Synoid Gammacor far outpaces Soma Prime, which is NOT a weak weapon.

Max range 25m

ITS not a hitscan you cant use 1 ammo to shot 1 mob unless that mob is totally in your face so you can run out of ammo even in T1 missions

Edited March 25, 2015 by Deathman_Kenshi

[taiiat]

For me personally, I want things to get that strong. Why? So we can have harder maps and actually fight in them with out screaming about how the chalenge is overpowered and unbalanced.

fascinating.

i must be in a different universe where having more powerful Weapons, and then Enemies with longer Health Bars - doesn't just end up back at the same point.

good job, you made Weapons Kill things faster, and compensated for it by making Enemies take longer to Kill.

so you've changed nothing. all you've done is increase Memory usage a little bit due to larger numbers.

[[DE]Momaw]

Soma Prime: http://goo.gl/NvzJxo

This is Heavy Caliber build, which does have the highest damage per shot, even if each shot doesn't always land.

It has 1427 damage per shot

 

You're doing it wrong.

 

Soma is a head-shot weapon. Aim for the head. Welcome to a new world of damage output and ammo economy.

[CheckYourSix]

I very much understand how drastic that difference is. However, I don't feel it because I know not to put fire rate mods on a weapon with already a huge fire rate.

I mean, this should be obvious. Putting fire rate on a weapon with high fire rate makes the fire rate uncontrollable. Did I even have to say it?

 

Basically, I just didn't realize anyone would still put Anemic Agility on that weapon now.

For me, Soma Prime: http://goo.gl/NvzJxo

This is Heavy Caliber build, which does have the highest damage per shot, even if each shot doesn't always land.

It has 1427 damage per shot.

 

Synoid Gammacor: 1476 damage per shot.

http://goo.gl/qFc8JN

And that's with a pinpoint laser beam to shoot with.

 

And note the much, MUCH higher both Burst DPS AND Sustained DPS. How is this even a contest? Even after the nerf, Synoid Gammacor far outpaces Soma Prime, which is NOT a weak weapon.

 

You do not know how to mod at all.

 

As I already explained, Primary weapons will NEVER out dps secondary weapons in terms of RAW dps potential numbers. Not until mods and basic design changes are made. The mods for secondaries add far more to the dps scaling of secondary weapons than the mods for primaries. So trying to compare RAW dps numbers between primaries and secondaries is plainly put, stupid.

 

All full auto secondaries in this game gain substantial dps increase increase with fire rate mods (more so than compared to primaries) due to both barrel diffusion and lethal torrent. The fact that secondaries with those 2 mods get 3 free shots per "round" versus primaries that get 1 extra shot per round makes having fire rate mods on full auto secondaries a massive dps gain. The same can't be said for semi autos because of the hard cap of shots that can be fired to counteract macros or setting the scroll wheel to shoot. Why DE doesn't like that doesn't matter and is the subject of a different argument.

 

So because of the vastly superior multishot capability of secondaries compared to primaries due strictly because of mods, fire rate is pretty much king for dps gains with them. The exceptions are going to be guns with very high crit chance base (not many secondaries have that) or high status chance such as the vaykor marelok. While the Vaykor Marelok has much higher RAW dps numbers using the same fire rate mods, the actual effective dps of the weapon is better when increasing status chance and effectively using the proper status effects against what you are fighting.

 

The Soma Prime is a high crit base chance, hit scan, highly accurate primary weapon. Modding for fire rate on it, besides using Shred (which is debatable to even use for this particular gun) is not the optimal way to mod the weapon for effective dps.

 

To reiterate, comparing RAW potential dps numbers between primaries and secondaries is effing stupid. I can get the RAW dps numbers of the Lato, the worst gun in the entire game, to have close to or in many cases higher RAW potential dps of most of the primaries in the game.

 

http://warframe-builder.com/Secondary_Weapons/Builder/Lato/t_30_22233330_193-1-5-195-4-5-200-7-5-204-0-10-206-2-5-209-5-5-404-3-5-487-6-10_204-7-193-6-206-6-404-5-195-6-209-6-487-8-200-9/en/3-0-12

 

So just stop that comparison. It's dumb.

[Finedaible]

I agree with OP, this nerf has rendered the gun sorely useless. Just today I tried using a maxed Pistol Ammo Mutation on the SG with my desecrate Nekros AND Carrier while a teammate used Greedy Pull during a T1 Survival and I was not able to kill anything without running out of ammo after 35 minutes. 

[ShardsSuperior]

You do not know how to mod at all.

 

As I already explained, Primary weapons will NEVER out dps secondary weapons in terms of RAW dps potential numbers. Not until mods and basic design changes are made. The mods for secondaries add far more to the dps scaling of secondary weapons than the mods for primaries. So trying to compare RAW dps numbers between primaries and secondaries is plainly put, stupid.

 

All full auto secondaries in this game gain substantial dps increase increase with fire rate mods (more so than compared to primaries) due to both barrel diffusion and lethal torrent. The fact that secondaries with those 2 mods get 3 free shots per "round" versus primaries that get 1 extra shot per round makes having fire rate mods on full auto secondaries a massive dps gain. The same can't be said for semi autos because of the hard cap of shots that can be fired to counteract macros or setting the scroll wheel to shoot. Why DE doesn't like that doesn't matter and is the subject of a different argument.

 

So because of the vastly superior multishot capability of secondaries compared to primaries due strictly because of mods, fire rate is pretty much king for dps gains with them. The exceptions are going to be guns with very high crit chance base (not many secondaries have that) or high status chance such as the vaykor marelok. While the Vaykor Marelok has much higher RAW dps numbers using the same fire rate mods, the actual effective dps of the weapon is better when increasing status chance and effectively using the proper status effects against what you are fighting.

 

The Soma Prime is a high crit base chance, hit scan, highly accurate primary weapon. Modding for fire rate on it, besides using Shred (which is debatable to even use for this particular gun) is not the optimal way to mod the weapon for effective dps.

 

To reiterate, comparing RAW potential dps numbers between primaries and secondaries is effing stupid. I can get the RAW dps numbers of the Lato, the worst gun in the entire game, to have close to or in many cases higher RAW potential dps of most of the primaries in the game.

 

http://warframe-builder.com/Secondary_Weapons/Builder/Lato/t_30_22233330_193-1-5-195-4-5-200-7-5-204-0-10-206-2-5-209-5-5-404-3-5-487-6-10_204-7-193-6-206-6-404-5-195-6-209-6-487-8-200-9/en/3-0-12

 

So just stop that comparison. It's dumb.

Of course I understand that increasing fire rate increases DPS a lot. 

I also understand that adding fire rate to a 15 fire rate weapon for the sake of DPS is a complete dumbass thing to do.

 

You don't exacerbate problems with a weapon! You either try to highlight its strongest points or try to minimize its weakpoints.

With high ammo consumption, you go for the high damage per shot, because that helps balances out the terrible ammo efficiency.

That means stacking damage, multishot, elementals. Definitely not adding Anemic Agility, which actually DECREASES ammo efficiency.

 

The comparison could be a bit flawed. But NOT for the reasons you state. Soma Prime is, by its nature, a crit weapon. You can go for headshots with it to save ammo, because those are 4x more effective. (As Momaw points out)

 

Max range 25m

ITS not a hitscan you cant use 1 ammo to shot 1 mob unless that mob is totally in your face so you can run out of ammo even in T1 missions

It's a fixed range laser beam. You're supposed to kill mobs that are "totally in your face." You're not going to be sniping with it.

 

 

I agree with OP, this nerf has rendered the gun sorely useless. Just today I tried using a maxed Pistol Ammo Mutation on the SG with my desecrate Nekros AND Carrier while a teammate used Greedy Pull during a T1 Survival and I was not able to kill anything without running out of ammo after 35 minutes. 

1. You're at 35 minutes in a Survival. Enemies are already getting pretty tanky, but not really tanky enough to not kill efficiently, unless you waste ammo by sweeping your beam.

2. You're not using Primed Pistol Mutation. 

[HandsomeSorcerer]

fascinating.

i must be in a different universe where having more powerful Weapons, and then Enemies with longer Health Bars - doesn't just end up back at the same point.

good job, you made Weapons Kill things faster, and compensated for it by making Enemies take longer to Kill.

so you've changed nothing. all you've done is increase Memory usage a little bit due to larger numbers.

Thats not true. The higher the level of the enemy, the higher damage they do. Its not the same thing as you are mking out to be.

 

More powerful enemies = More cheese and danger from the enemies. A good weapon would help in that regard.

You have to dodge and use acrobatics to evade high level enemies. However, Warframe has no "High" level enemies. Either you die or you have corrosive projection.

 

Edited March 26, 2015 by HandsomeSorcerer

[CheckYourSix]

Of course I understand that increasing fire rate increases DPS a lot. 

I also understand that adding fire rate to a 15 fire rate weapon for the sake of DPS is a complete dumbass thing to do.

 

You don't exacerbate problems with a weapon! You either try to highlight its strongest points or try to minimize its weakpoints.

With high ammo consumption, you go for the high damage per shot, because that helps balances out the terrible ammo efficiency.

That means stacking damage, multishot, elementals. Definitely not adding Anemic Agility, which actually DECREASES ammo efficiency.

 

The comparison could be a bit flawed. But NOT for the reasons you state. Soma Prime is, by its nature, a crit weapon. You can go for headshots with it to save ammo, because those are 4x more effective. (As Momaw points out)

 

It's a fixed range laser beam. You're supposed to kill mobs that are "totally in your face." You're not going to be sniping with it.

 

 

1. You're at 35 minutes in a Survival. Enemies are already getting pretty tanky, but not really tanky enough to not kill efficiently, unless you waste ammo by sweeping your beam.

2. You're not using Primed Pistol Mutation. 

 

 

Several things. First off, if you know that the fire rate mods for secondaries increase dps a lot (more than pretty much any other secondary mod due to how the mods for secondaries are structured) then you wouldn't be making the arguments you are.

 

There is a reason why no one uses the Twin Vipers, AFuris/Dex Furis, Dual Cestas, and other inefficient ammo guns for end game content currently. Because the most effective method of bumping up dps for secondaries for the most part is through the first rate mods. Specifically Lethal Torrent and Anemic Agility. Using those mods on any secondary weapon which has a base fire rate that consumes an entire magazine in 10 seconds or less right now makes that weapon worthless. No one uses those weapons for anything other than mastery fodder and for good reason.

 

Here is an example build of a Dex Furis.

 

http://warframe-builder.com/Secondary_Weapons/Builder/Dex_furis/t_30_30000000_193-5-5-195-0-5-200-7-5-204-6-10-206-3-5-209-1-5-404-4-5-487-2-10_195-6-209-11-487-16-206-11-404-9-193-11-204-14-200-9/en/3-0-43

 

36K burst dps puts it above all primaries. The theoretical sustained dps puts it above most of the "best tier" primaries as well. So why doesn't everyone run around with Dex Furis late game? Because you can only fire it for less than 2 seconds and you are out of ammo. To mod it a different way so that the ammo problem isn't as drastic a problem drops the DPS for the weapon into useless territory because other true end game weapons outclass it. Here is modding it so that the ammo consumption isn't nearly as drastic a problem as you can now fire the weapon for almost 10 seconds before running out of ammo on a single magazine.

 

http://warframe-builder.com/Secondary_Weapons/Builder/Dex_furis/t_30_30000000_193-5-5-195-0-5-196-3-5-204-6-10-209-1-5-408-7-5-452-4-5-487-2-10_195-6-209-11-487-16-196-11-452-11-193-11-204-14-408-9/en/3-0-4

 

But check out the dps numbers. Drops from 36K to 8K. Sure you can fire all you want now and not nearly have to worry about ammo, but you aren't going to be kill stuff. Which therein lies the next problem. With 8K dps it may take up to 4 times more ammo to take down a target since you deal 4x less dps. So while you can shoot longer, you need more shots to take out high level content. Which means you may still eventually run into ammo problems. On top of that, since it takes more shots to kill a target, that means targets live longer and can have more shots to kill YOU.

 

There is a reason those guns are NEVER used in late game content currently. They suck compared to better guns.

 

The SG is now in that same category. Sure you can mod it to do high dps, but you run out of ammo so fast it can't be used on more than a few targets. If you don't mod it to use fire rate mods for raw dps output, then the dps output it has without fire rate mods is junk.

 

One last thing, you don't really believe a prime pistol ammo mutation mod solves the problem do you? Because it doesn't. Regular pistol ammo mutation mod max converts 80% and primed only changes that to 100% maxed. What does that mean? It means for ammo drops, which come as 10 or 20 rounds depending on the ammo type will be converted at either 8/16 or 10/20. The extra 4 rounds of ammo you get max from the conversion doesn't mean squat to maintaining ammo for the weapon. I ran with a pistol ammo mod along with a greedy mag, nekros, and ogris setup into a T4S game and it doesn't matter. Even with pistol scav on, one has to use ammo restore gear on top of that to even begin to maintain a modicum of consistent fire rate needed for 30+ minutes in a T4S. Which doing all that with pistol scav, ammo mutation, and ammo restores drops your potential dps that could be had with a weapon that doesn't require any of that.

 

As to why no one cries over the other bad ammo inefficient guns, it is because that is how those guns were introduced to the game. It's completely different to have a gun perform one way and be change so drastically that the performance of the weapon is completely different. I'm fine with the Dex Furis, Twin Viper guns in the game. There are already plenty of those style guns and we don't need more.

Edited March 26, 2015 by CheckYourSix

[taiiat]

i'll make one of the first constructive posts in this thread, without any false numbers, misleading words or other garbage that will make Digital Extremes click close tab before they get done reading:

i would have chosen 40 * 9, a Magazine of 40, and an Ammo Pool of 280 if it had been my choice for the Weapon.

Higher Level Enemies cheese Players harder

you know that's not a good thing, right? Edited March 26, 2015 by taiiat

[ZechsX18999]

We know that it's a massive nerf, but we're not really concerned because the Synoid Gammacor just went from "Godly OP" to "Decent", which is fine by me. I'm still using my 6 Formaed Synoid Gammacor with a maxed primed pistol mutation.

[CheckYourSix]

you know that's not a good thing, right?

 

Why not? That's how progression games are you know that right? It's all about relative power levels and window dressing. When it comes to games like this there are 3 basic ways to present an end game to players of a progression based game.

 

1) Boss(es) which are single to few very incredibly power enemies in relation to players that it takes many players to take it down. 

2) Hordes of semi to very power normal enemies that take a concentrated effort of players to take down

3) PVP

 

This can actually be applied to single player games and typically is except for number 3. There isn't any other viable way to do "end game" content for a progression based battle game.

[CheckYourSix]

We know that it's a massive nerf, but we're not really concerned because the Synoid Gammacor just went from "Godly OP" to "Decent", which is fine by me. I'm still using my 6 Formaed Synoid Gammacor with a maxed primed pistol mutation.

 

Why? This is about the best new build you can do for the weapon currently

 

http://warframe-builder.com/Secondary_Weapons/Builder/Synoid_Gammacor/t_30_33302220_193-5-5-195-0-5-197-3-5-204-4-10-207-6-10-209-1-5-210-7-5-487-2-10_195-6-209-6-487-8-197-9-204-7-193-6-207-7-210-9/en/3-0-55

 

It works, but is still outclassed by the likes of the Soma P, Boltor P, Amprex, Phage, Vaykor Marelok, Rakta Ballistica, Telos Akbolto, and even the Quanta. There are better weapons to bring into end game content now than the SG even with the "best" possible build you can do for the SG. There is absolutely no reason to use SG in late game content over other weapons. Which is why it now sucks.

 

Sure you CAN use it, just like I could try using a Lato, but the end result is in either case you are bringing in a sub optimal weapon into a potential part of the game where sub optimal doesn't fly.

Edited March 26, 2015 by CheckYourSix

[ZechsX18999]

Why? This is about the best new build you can do for the weapon currently

 

http://warframe-builder.com/Secondary_Weapons/Builder/Synoid_Gammacor/t_30_33302220_193-5-5-195-0-5-197-3-5-204-4-10-207-6-10-209-1-5-210-7-5-487-2-10_195-6-209-6-487-8-197-9-204-7-193-6-207-7-210-9/en/3-0-55

 

It works, but is still outclassed by the likes of the Soma P, Boltor P, Amprex, Phage, Vaykor Marelok, Rakta Ballistica, Telos Akbolto, and even the Quanta. There are better weapons to bring into end game content now than the SG even with the "best" possible build you can do for the SG. There is absolutely no reason to use SG in late game content over other weapons. Which is why it now sucks.

 

Sure you CAN use it, just like I could try using a Lato, but the end result is in either case you are bringing in a sub optimal weapon into a potential part of the game where sub optimal doesn't fly.

 

Uh that's not the best build... Remove Magnum Force and add Lethal Torrent...you'll increase Accuracy, Status Chance, Damage per bullet, burst DPS, and sustained DPS.

 

Synoid Gammacor doesn't have to be the best gun at everything, it still holds its niche of having pinpoint accuracy, high burst DPS, and energy restoring proc. It also kills weaker enemies very well because of it's 150 magazine size. Vaykor Marelok and Rakta ballistica do high damage per shot, which is better for end game content.

[Deathman_Kenshi]

....

It's a fixed range laser beam. You're supposed to kill mobs that are "totally in your face." You're not going to be sniping with it.

 

 

1. You're at 35 minutes in a Survival. Enemies are already getting pretty tanky, but not really tanky enough to not kill efficiently, unless you waste ammo by sweeping your beam.

2. You're not using Primed Pistol Mutation. 

You seem like never used any "beam" weapon in this game as they do not do hitscan damage

Beam extends and actualy you need to spent fair amount of ammo to hit anything past point blank

1/2

35 minutes in survival you need full mag to down one Ancient healer eximus (well with magnum force you can down two)

And not everyone have primed pistol mutation / not mentioning needing to put another forma just to not fixing ammo problem at all as conversion is still too weak and will not keep up after 40 min mark (thats considering you will run point blank most of the time to save up ammo)

I like how everyone slaps primed stuff on weapon in weapon builder site and use it as argument its still powerfull enough

With primed mods even those Lato will take a cut

Edited March 26, 2015 by Deathman_Kenshi