De's Word And Its Lack Of Integrity: Another Viewpoint From Another Long-Time Player

[vaugahn]

it's not a stretch to think that they would cover it up to keep people happy as long as possible

 

Obviously the evil masterminds at DE aren't stupid, hence the elaborate and long-running charade that apparently exists to trick people into thinking they care about players or the game.

 

If they aren't stupid, why on earth would they think they could sneak changes into anything? Much less one of the more popular frames in the game? That's a huge stretch to think that. There's no way they could possibly cover up a change to a warframe with any degree of effectiveness. People noticed when Mesa's passives were changed, and those were almost unnoticeable compared to something like the base mechanic of an entire ult.

 

It literally makes no sense. They'd have to be beyond oblivious and totally stupid and unable to remember more than five minutes into the past to think they could sneak something into the game.

[Flowen231]

DE buffs Rad Jav due to changes to another ability

DE takes away due to rep farms taking advantage of an immediately broken system

DE re-buffs Rad Jav due to their knowing it was a mistake

DE takes away because of God-knows-what (some speculate E Gate) and is now worse than the original Rad Jav with the target cap

DE claims it is now working as intended

I wouldn't put it past them. They'll say anything to cover their &#! and justify their actions.

[vaugahn]

I wouldn't put it past them. They'll say anything to cover their ! and justify their actions.

 

It's true, they've made some extremely questionable decisions.

 

But one thing they're definitely not is stupid, and that's something you'd have to be to think you could sneak a change like this in. 

[Flowen231]

It's true, they've made some extremely questionable decisions.

 

But one thing they're definitely not is stupid, and that's something you'd have to be to think you could sneak a change like this in. 

The problem with this argument is that neither of us has a way to prove who is right. The only thing DE has going for them on this matter is their "word", which is questionable to some at his point (hence the reason why this topic exists.)

 

I am basing my conclusions on is their past actions, which have shaken my faith in them. They have made silly decisions in the past and it is my belief that this is just another one of those silly decisions. Either way, DE is a professional company and if they really intended for the changes to be in the patch notes, they should have double checked them instead of rushing the patch out. 

 

Whether it was left out on accident or not is up to your imagination, and you have absolutely no evidence to disprove that it was not an accident.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Flowen231

[vaugahn]

The problem with this argument is that neither of us has a way to prove who is right. The only thing DE has going for them on this matter is their "word", which is questionable to some at his point (hence the reason why this topic exists.)

 

What I am basing my conclusions on is their past actions, which has shaken my faith in them. They have made silly decisions in the past and it is my belief that this is just another one of those silly decisions. Either way, DE is a professional company and if they really intended for the changes to be in the patch notes, they should have double checked them instead of rushing the patch out. 

 

Whether it was left out on accident or not is up to your imagination, and you have absolutely no evidence to disprove that it was not an accident.

 

And you have no evidence to prove it's intentional?

 

I'm basing my argument off past behavior, not off what they said or didn't say. They know that they can't hide changes like this from us. That's not a matter of opinion; We know it, they know it. 

 

You're claiming that this change was intentionally left out of the patch notes in order to keep community panic to a minimum. However, anyone who's followed this game for more than a few months knows two things when it comes to this: 1) stealth nerfs cause more panic than actual ones, and 2) it's all impossible to hide player-level changes from the players. 

 

Given all that, your argument doesn't really make sense. Even if they hadn't said anything, it would be fairly simple to figure out what probably happened. 

 

For this change to intentionally left out would require them to not know anything about the community. I'm almost positive that's not the case. I suppose it's possible, much in the same way anything is possible, but at this point in the game's lifespan it really doesn't seem likely.

[Flowen231]

And you have no evidence to prove it's intentional?

 

I'm basing my argument off past behavior, not off what they said or didn't say. They know that they can't hide changes like this from us. That's not a matter of opinion; We know it, they know it. 

 

You're claiming that this change was intentionally left out of the patch notes in order to keep community panic to a minimum. However, anyone who's followed this game for more than a few months knows two things when it comes to this: 1) stealth nerfs cause more panic than actual ones, and 2) it's all impossible to hide player-level changes from the players. 

 

Given all that, your argument doesn't really make sense. Even if they hadn't said anything, it would be fairly simple to figure out what probably happened. 

 

For this change to intentionally left out would require them to not know anything about the community. I'm almost positive that's not the case. I suppose it's possible, much in the same way anything is possible, but at this point in the game's lifespan it really doesn't seem likely.

Nope, and you don't have any to prove otherwise.

 

If THEY KNEW they couldn't hide things, we wouldn't be having this little chat would we?

 

Yes, DE has made silly decisions, and I believe this is another one of those, if it made sense, it would not be a silly decision.

 

Your argument makes no sense. Just because they say one thing does not make it the truth. And it doesn't matter if we figured anything out or not, I'm going off of the assumption that they intentionally left the notes out. Whether we did figure it out without their telling us or if we were oblivious to it was of little consequence (and yeah, i know theres no hiding a change like this, the question is: Does DE know?) I'm saying that they TRIED to deceive the playerbase.

 

Dude... if DE knew their playerbase, they would know that everyone is tired of the grind and lessen it to a reasonable extent instead of making it worse at every turn (because again, happy players=money for them). The fact is that DE does not know their community. 

Edited April 5, 2015 by Flowen231

[vaugahn]

Nope, and you don't have any to prove otherwise.

 

If THEY KNEW they couldn't hide things, we wouldn't be having this little chat would we?

 

Yes, DE has made silly decisions, and I believe this is another one of those, if it made sense, it would not be a silly decision.

 

Your argument makes no sense. Just because they say one thing does not make it the truth. And it doesn't matter if we figured anything out or not, I'm going off of the assumption that they intentionally left the notes out. Whether we did figure it out without their telling us or if we were oblivious to it was of little consequence (and yeah, i know theres no hiding a change like this, the question is: Does DE know?) I'm saying that they TRIED to deceive the playerbase.

 

Dude... if DE knew their playerbase, they would know that everyone is tired of the grind and lessen it to a reasonable extent instead of making it worse at every turn (because again, happy players=money for them). The fact is that DE does not know their community. 

 

Think about what you're saying for a second...

 

You're saying that they attempted to deceive the playerbase, supposedly in order to keep the playerbase happy for as long as possible.

 

You're getting a little hung up on the official statement, which has no bearing here. We're talking about actions, not words.

 

Do you honestly believe that DE didn't think players would notice a change? Do you honestly believe that they somehow thought a stealth change would result in less backlash than an up-front one?

 

If you believe both those things we have nothing more to discuss, as they're both clearly untrue (and both central to your conclusion).

[KvotheTheArcane1]

It's true, they've made some extremely questionable decisions.

 

But one thing they're definitely not is stupid, and that's something you'd have to be to think you could sneak a change like this in. 

I disagree. Sneaking in things like this creates sides, which is big for DE.

 

Why? Now they can apologize (again), claim it's a mistake (as anyone would do), and the player base thinks the nerf sucks (the majority at least, I'm sure there's one crazy guy at least saying how good and balanced it is now), but they're more focused on the stealth nerfing. Hell, it's been that way EVERY time. If they put the nerf in the notes, people put their time and energy towards flipping out over the nerf, but if it's stealth nerfed, it divides the community into about 3 parts. The "fix the nerf" part, the "stealth nerf" part, and the "it's just a mistake". All in all, this controls the community outpouring.

 

And why is that so important? DE has seen their player base get mad before. When there was a rumor of PWE taking over, something like a 300 page thread popped up in HALF A DAY. It was (probably still is) the biggest thread ever created (I think it was 300 pages. It was bigger than the "Last Post Wins" thread). The Rhino nerf. Enough people complained and created an uproar for DE to redo rhino. The initial void and prime parts. The 1% chance for a part to drop was made public MANY times by dataminers, bless them, which crated a MASSIVE amount of fury, which DE tried to steam eventually by encrypting the drop tables.

 

So yes, I think DE isn't stupid, not at all. I think they're shady. I think through trial and error they've found ways to do what they want with a minimal backlash from the community, so when they want unpopular things they do them. I KNOW DE was expecting the player base to find out, that's not even a question. They've done enough dumb things to have learned that by now, they're just trying to control the fallout.

 

I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but this is what I feel/see. If DE truly cared, they'd show it better imho. They'd have lessened the grind, they'd find some way to reduce how many stealth changes (intentional or not) there are. I just don't see it.

Edited April 5, 2015 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Flowen231]

If you believe both those things we have nothing more to discuss, as they're both clearly untrue (and both central to your conclusion).

You know when to quit, smart man.

 

If DE truly cared, they'd show it better imho. They'd have lessened the grind, they'd find some way to reduce how many stealth changes (intentional or not) there are. I just don't see it.

I love it when people word things better than me, saves me the typing lol. In all seriousness though, I share the sentiment.

[ShardsSuperior]

DE does not have our best interests in mind when it comes to this game. The soul reason warframe exists is to make a profit, and there is no problem with that. 

 

However, naturally this means that they want to keep the players happy, because more happy people = more player and more players = more money for them. After the first 2 excal nerfs, they were flooded with backlash to the point where they took a step back and un nerfed him, it's not a stretch to think that they would cover it up to keep people happy as long as possible, and then stating that it was a mistake just to make themselves seem more innocent.

It kinda is a stretch, if you REALLY think about it.

What possible advantage would they have from doing this? An HOUR after the patch?

[Flowen231]

It kinda is a stretch, if you REALLY think about it.

What possible advantage would they have from doing this? An HOUR after the patch?

Well, the change was uncovered by the community within that hour. And if you read the post above my last one.... let me quote it. Kvo gave a pretty good explanation.

 

I disagree. Sneaking in things like this creates sides, which is big for DE.

 

Why? Now they can apologize (again), claim it's a mistake (as anyone would do), and the player base thinks the nerf sucks (the majority at least, I'm sure there's one crazy guy at least saying how good and balanced it is now), but they're more focused on the stealth nerfing. Hell, it's been that way EVERY time. If they put the nerf in the notes, people put their time and energy towards flipping out over the nerf, but if it's stealth nerfed, it divides the community into about 3 parts. The "fix the nerf" part, the "stealth nerf" part, and the "it's just a mistake". All in all, this controls the community outpouring.

 

And why is that so important? DE has seen their player base get mad before. When there was a rumor of PWE taking over, something like a 300 page thread popped up in HALF A DAY. It was (probably still is) the biggest thread ever created (I think it was 300 pages. It was bigger than the "Last Post Wins" thread). The Rhino nerf. Enough people complained and created an uproar for DE to redo rhino. The initial void and prime parts. The 1% chance for a part to drop was made public MANY times by dataminers, bless them, which crated a MASSIVE amount of fury, which DE tried to steam eventually by encrypting the drop tables.

 

So yes, I think DE isn't stupid, not at all. I think they're shady. I think through trial and error they've found ways to do what they want with a minimal backlash from the community, so when they want unpopular things they do them. I KNOW DE was expecting the player base to find out, that's not even a question. They've done enough dumb things to have learned that by now, they're just trying to control the fallout.

 

I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but this is what I feel/see. If DE truly cared, they'd show it better imho. They'd have lessened the grind, they'd find some way to reduce how many stealth changes (intentional or not) there are. I just don't see it.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Flowen231

[ThePresident777]

Sure, people can make mistakes and it's not hard to believe that someone missed a piece of information so it did not make it into the patch notes.  But, there is more going on here than just information not making it into patch notes.

 

There are some facts that make it difficult to believe some of what DE says on this issue:

0)  When RJ's targeting was changed to "close to enemies" there was no mention that LOS was still the goal.

 

1)  When RJ's targeting was changed to "close to enemies" the target limit of 16 enemies was removed.  This made RJ more powerful.  Making an ability more powerful, does not imply wanting to make it less powerful later on.

 

2)  Auto-target, unlimited enemy count, AoE has been a part of Warframe for a long time.  It was never implied that it is a place holder, temporary.  In fact, Warframe was promoted as not a typical game in early DE videos on youtube.

 

3)  RJ was made into an Auto target, unlimited enemy count, AoE like so many other abilities.  It was made common, or even normal for Warframe one might say.  This does not imply plans to nerf it.  (Awareness targeting is a nerf.)

 

4)  This is not just a matter of communication.  If DE had announced that they were going to make RJ into an auto-targeting + unlimited targets AoE, while they figure out how to nerf it, people would have been scratching their heads and asking, "why give us something we want then take it away from us.  Why the chaos?"

[vaugahn]

I disagree. Sneaking in things like this creates sides, which is big for DE.

 

Why? Now they can apologize (again), claim it's a mistake (as anyone would do), and the player base thinks the nerf sucks (the majority at least, I'm sure there's one crazy guy at least saying how good and balanced it is now), but they're more focused on the stealth nerfing. Hell, it's been that way EVERY time. If they put the nerf in the notes, people put their time and energy towards flipping out over the nerf, but if it's stealth nerfed, it divides the community into about 3 parts. The "fix the nerf" part, the "stealth nerf" part, and the "it's just a mistake". All in all, this controls the community outpouring.

 

Except it doesn't really, because all of those sides want the same thing. Adding more hate on top of existing hate doesn't sound like a very sound decision. A straight out nerf created a group of people angry at a nerf. A stealth nerf created a group of people angry at a nerf, and a group of people angry at DE for hiding a nerf. I mean, just look at the fallout of this most recent one. We have warframe feedback full of threads complaining about the Excal nerf, and general with threads complaining about a lack of transparency. If they had just been up-front about it, only one of those categories would exist.

 

And why is that so important? DE has seen their player base get mad before. When there was a rumor of PWE taking over, something like a 300 page thread popped up in HALF A DAY. It was (probably still is) the biggest thread ever created (I think it was 300 pages. It was bigger than the "Last Post Wins" thread). The Rhino nerf. Enough people complained and created an uproar for DE to redo rhino. The initial void and prime parts. The 1% chance for a part to drop was made public MANY times by dataminers, bless them, which crated a MASSIVE amount of fury, which DE tried to steam eventually by encrypting the drop tables.

 

Which is where this stops making sense. How did they defuse the PW thing? Telling everyone exactly what was happening. Obviously they know that works.

 

So yes, I think DE isn't stupid, not at all. I think they're shady. I think through trial and error they've found ways to do what they want with a minimal backlash from the community, so when they want unpopular things they do them. I KNOW DE was expecting the player base to find out, that's not even a question. They've done enough dumb things to have learned that by now, they're just trying to control the fallout.

 

So, let me get this straight: through trial and error they have found a way to create minimal backlash over nerfs, and that way is by doing something that creates double the backlash an ordinary nerf would? That quite literally makes no sense. How is that "controlling the fallout"? The easiest way to control fallout over a nerf would be to be up-front with the nerf in the first place, and then explain the dev reasoning behind it. Histoically, that is what has worked, and based off pleas for developer transparency it's highly likely it would work again. I'm just a random forum dude, and even I can see that would result in much less backlash than an elaborate stealth nerf/apology setup. If they want to create the minimum amount of backlash possible while still pushing through their changes, I can think of literally dozens of better ways they could do it, and that's from an outsider perspective. They keep community relations people on staff, who are actually paid to do this stuff!

 

I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but this is what I feel/see. If DE truly cared, they'd show it better imho. They'd have lessened the grind, they'd find some way to reduce how many stealth changes (intentional or not) there are. I just don't see it.

 

If DE truly didn't care, they wouldn't do any of the things they've done. There would be no forums, no apologies, no devstreams, no fallout control even.

 

You know when to quit, smart man.

 

I'm going to assume you've given up?

 

If DE had announced that they were going to make RJ into an auto-targeting + unlimited targets AoE, while they figure out how to nerf it, people would have been scratching their heads and asking, "why give us something we want then take it away from us.  Why the chaos?"

 

Honestly? I think DE doesn't know what to do with their energy system. That's an issue for a different thread though.

Edited April 5, 2015 by vaugahn

[Flowen231]

I'm going to assume you've given up?

 

LOL of course not, I thought you had since you said we have nothing more to discuss. Please, continue by all means.

 

If DE truly didn't care, they wouldn't do any of the things they've done. There would be no forums, no apologies, no devstreams, no fallout control even.

 

Again, DE does care ABOUT MONEY. If they apologize, if they make forums, if they make dev streams, if they do fallout control, it's not to keep us happy, or to give us a "quality" gaming experience, it's to keep their profits up. Money is all they care about, and they will say/do/make/control anything to fool the playerbase in order to make as much money as possible.

 

Do YOU think warframe would still be here if DE suddenly decided not to charge for anything within the game and leave it open as a completely free project? No, and that's just fine. The problem is when they implement changes and then use underhanded strategies to cover them up as much as possible. The goal of doing so is to make as much money as possible, and that's all warframe exists for.

 

The fact that you're covering for DE so strongly makes it seem as though you enjoy it when someone takes advantage of you. I mean, I'm just some random person, stating my thoughts on the matter, why are you trying so hard to show me the error of my ways when you yourself have as much proof to back up your reasoning as I do, which is none?

Edited April 5, 2015 by Flowen231

[vaugahn]

Again, DE does care ABOUT MONEY. If they apologize, if they make forums, if they make dev streams, if they do fallout control, it's not to keep us happy, or to give us a "quality" gaming experience, it's to keep their profits up. Money is all they care about, and they will say/do/make/control anything to fool the playerbase in order to make as much money as possible.

 

Do YOU think warframe would still be here if DE suddenly decided not to charge for anything within the game and leave it open as a completely free project? No, and that's just fine. The problem is when they implement changes and then use underhanded strategies to cover them up as much as possible. The goal of doing so is to make as much money as possible, and that's all warframe exists for.

 

The fact that you're covering for DE so strongly makes it seem as though you enjoy it when someone takes advantage of you. I mean, I'm just stating my thoughts on the matter, why are you trying so hard to show me the error of my ways when you yourself have as much proof to back up your reasoning as I do, which is none?

 

Now we're just getting into tinfoil hat territory. Trust me, I've seen developers who only care about money. Hek, let's talk about PWE. They expressly forbid player-developer interaction, half the time their patch notes are less accurate than fantasy novels, they've never once apologized for anything or even bothered to try and control the fallout of their blatantly bad decisions. That's what a greedy studio looks like.

 

I'm under no illusions as to what DE is. They're a business, they want to make money. But they don't have to do any of the things they do. Go watch any interview with them, especially ones about the original Dark Sector concept and Warframe. I suppose it's possible they've been running a decade-long scheme to fool people into thinking their games are a labor of love or whatever, but I'm almost positive the actual answer is a little less convoluted. 

 

Now, if you'd like to have an actual point instead of an ad hominem attack, we can continue. 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Except it doesn't really, because all of those sides want the same thing. Adding more hate on top of existing hate doesn't sound like a very sound decision. A straight out nerf created a group of people angry at a nerf. A stealth nerf created a group of people angry at a nerf, and a group of people angry at DE for hiding a nerf. I mean, just look at the fallout of this most recent one. We have warframe feedback full of threads complaining about the Excal nerf, and general with threads complaining about a lack of transparency. If they had just been up-front about it, only one of those categories would exist.

All the sides want the same thing, but they're not talking about the issue. They're talking about the stealth change. The attention isn't on the nerf, it's on how it was done. Imagine how much more attention there would be if they had put it in the patch notes. NO ONE would be arguing over HOW it was done, but over the ACTUAL nerf.

 

Which is where this stops making sense. How did they defuse the PW thing? Telling everyone exactly what was happening. Obviously they know that works.

That part is simply me giving examples of what the community can do. Make a MASSIVE uproar and S#&$storm, nothing more. Not sure how you got it anything else from it, I'll reread and fix it if I can.

 

Also, if they WERE putting everything in the patch notes, this wouldn't be a problem. This isn't some deal where they legally cannot talk about it, but something they are changing in the game and have complete control over.

 

So, let me get this straight: through trial and error they have found a way to create minimal backlash over nerfs, and that way is by doing something that creates double the backlash an ordinary nerf would? That quite literally makes no sense. How is that "controlling the fallout"? The easiest way to control fallout over a nerf would be to be up-front with the nerf in the first place, and then explain the dev reasoning behind it. Histoically, that is what has worked, and based off pleas for developer transparency it's highly likely it would work again. I'm just a random forum dude, and even I can see that would result in much less backlash than an elaborate stealth nerf/apology setup. If they want to create the minimum amount of backlash possible while still pushing through their changes, I can think of literally dozens of better ways they could do it, and that's from an outsider perspective. They keep community relations people on staff, who are actually paid to do this stuff!

In case you haven't noticed, DE isn't the best at anything. Not talking to the players, not balancing a game, nothing. They're about average, especially considering they were NEW to the F2P market. They didn't know how any of this worked. They never had to deal with player reactions before, they never had to consider how this nerf would effect anything. And DE has done this before with negative things. Remember when they first tried to stop rushing with a stealth nerf to stamina? Everyone noticed when they ran out of stamina double quick (but it did nothing to really stop rushers). Or how zorencoptering didn't work with some secondary weapons (kunai/throwing stuff)

 

What I'm saying is that DE had no experience to go off with dealing with players in "real time" (compared to their other games say, dark sector). They found they got less of a S#&$storm when they made a negative change and hid it. They got more S#&$ on different things for different reasons, but the change wasn't focused on as hard, which is what they cared about. Think about it. Less energy/posts/time are spent on the actual discussion of the change, the sooner people move on, the sooner they can say "oh, we're looking into fixing/changing X".

 

If DE truly didn't care, they wouldn't do any of the things they've done. There would be no forums, no apologies, no devstreams, no fallout control even.

 

There's a big difference between blatantly not caring and caring enough to maintain contact with your playerbase. At one point for them staying in touch WAS possible. But now that WF has grown, and again, DE has no real idea what they're doing (simply lack of working on other successful F2Ps), they're still scratching their heads at what to do next. In the mean time, they give us grind, and say "don't worry, we'll fix it!", then do the exact opposite.

 

Hell, and even an idiot knows when to apologize. Especially since that one time gift of 50 plat pretty much brought the ragetrain to a crash. It was obvious to anyone that a simple boring apology they didn't need to follow up on, as long as it had a neat little gift would solve a LOT of problems.

 

And you know, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe DE DOES care, but just doesn't have the experience to follow through with what they want. They're not sure how to implement things correctly. Instead of balancing things as they come up, they push it to the side and say "later, fix it later." Instead of making a great game, they're settling for some grindy korean mmo type of game. I don't think they really try and play their game like they should.

 

They play some, maybe, but I'm not sure if they've ever tried the grind in the quantity they give us. By that, I mean, have they ever made a new account, like anyone else, sat down, and played long enough to get anywhere near ready for the void WITHOUT being carried through it, or getting a vey hek key from scratch, etc. I mean, playing with one or two other people who are at the same stage they are, and then analyzing their play as they go. Not "Gee, this is really tough and challenging", but more of "Why is this so challenging? Lack of weapons for new players? The grind they need to do?" (Now, that might be outdated, I haven't tried being a new player in quite a while either).

 

Anyways, that's WAY off topic there, so lemme do a quick tl;dr:

 

DE likes good press, like anyone. It's why at the very least they at least try (meaningfully or not) to look connected to the player base. Anyone interested in having SOME players on their side through constant rough times will try and seem connected to their players. *puts tinfoil hat on* It might not have started out that way, but it definitely has started heading the direction of... I dunno what to call it, trying to get people to defend them by seeming like they care, despite whatever massive flaws there are, and have been for a looooong time?

 

Honestly? I think DE doesn't know what to do with their energy system. That's an issue for a different thread though.

While it is a different issue, for a different thread, I'll just say I agree too.

 

Again, DE does care ABOUT MONEY...

DE is not adverse to money. I'd say they're not ALL about it, or we'd prolly start seeing some massive pay to win being added.

 

 an ad hominem attack, we can continue. 

Gonna emphasize this, it's the fastest way to get a thread locked. If you're point involves calling someone a name, prolly better to take a quick 5 minute break and think about it. This is a nice friendly discussion, lets keep it that way.

Edited April 6, 2015 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Flowen231]

Now we're just getting into tinfoil hat territory. Trust me, I've seen developers who only care about money. Hek, let's talk about PWE. They expressly forbid player-developer interaction, half the time their patch notes are less accurate than fantasy novels, they've never once apologized for anything or even bothered to try and control the fallout of their blatantly bad decisions. That's what a greedy studio looks like.

 

I'm under no illusions as to what DE is. They're a business, they want to make money. But they don't have to do any of the things they do. Go watch any interview with them, especially ones about the original Dark Sector concept and Warframe. I suppose it's possible they've been running a decade-long scheme to fool people into thinking their games are a labor of love or whatever, but I'm almost positive the actual answer is a little less convoluted. 

 

Now, if you'd like to have an actual point instead of an ad hominem attack, we can continue. 

Yeah, the reason why PWE isn't popular is because of the way the operate. The reason DE is popular with people like you is because of everything they do. Half assed interaction gets you loyal followers, loyal followers are free money for them. I'm not saying everything they do is fake, but when they apologize, host the dev streams, interact with the community ect ect, it's just to make players believe that they actually care to retain as many players as possible. At the end of they day, they're just going to do what they want no matter what the community has to say about it.

 

And no need to be so condescending, if I may refresh your memory, I merely stated my thoughts, you and another guy (who have a differing opinion than mine) started telling me that I was wrong because of what I think, I gave reasons as to why I think said way, and you kept insisting that I was wrong. Please don't stoop to childish name-calling when you are trying to debate an opinion based point.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Flowen231

[vaugahn]

Note that I've jumbled up your post a bit, not trying to be devious or anything it just made typing out the replies a little clearer. Just wanted to get that out of the way. 

 

All the sides want the same thing, but they're not talking about the issue. They're talking about the stealth change. The attention isn't on the nerf, it's on how it was done. Imagine how much more attention there would be if they had put it in the patch notes. NO ONE would be arguing over HOW it was done, but over the ACTUAL nerf.

 

What I'm saying is that DE had no experience to go off with dealing with players in "real time" (compared to their other games say, dark sector). They found they got less of a S#&$storm when they made a negative change and hid it. They got more S#&$ on different things for different reasons, but the change wasn't focused on as hard, which is what they cared about. Think about it. Less energy/posts/time are spent on the actual discussion of the change, the sooner people move on, the sooner they can say "oh, we're looking into fixing/changing X".

 

But it's not the same amount of backlash either way. No matter what kind of nerf they do they get all the normal nerf threads, but if they stealth nerf they get these threads on top of those. People are still talking about the issue, they're just talking about this too now. People are more than capable of raging on multiple topics at once. For example, the Excal nerf has gotten about the same amount of attention as the Synoid nerf, but count how many threads there are about the stealth aspect of the Excal nerf. They get way more backlash when they hide something, that's been proven time and time again. Hence this thread.

 

And you know, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe DE DOES care, but just doesn't have the experience to follow through with what they want. 

 

I find this to be much more likely. It's obvious they're even emotionally invested in Warframe as a game, and if they don't care about their playerbase they're doing a damn good job pretending to, but as you pointed out it's simply not their area of expertise. They've never done a F2P before, I'm pretty sure they've never done an RPG before either. Up until now, all they've really done are PvP games and Dark Sector, and Dark Sector was all but ripped from their hands by the publishers. 

 

And even further, Warframe itself started as little more than a tech demo. Go back and watch some of the pre-CBT interviews with Steve and all them, they only expected the game to be something people played for maybe a few hours and they just used Warframe as a setting for the game because they thought it was cool. It feels like they're just making it up as they go sometimes, and I would not be surprised if that was actually the case.

 

-snip-

 

Again, insults. 

 

And do you even hear how silly that all sounds? I mean, just apply Occam's Razor before you start: is it more likely that they've undertaken a (literally) years-long PR racket for essentially no reason, or do they mean well and are just unable to execute? I know Occam's Razor is just a guideline of sorts, but honestly, the gymnastics required to make that theory fit what evidence we have almost instantly falsify it.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Note that I've jumbled up your post a bit, not trying to be devious or anything it just made typing out the replies a little clearer. Just wanted to get that out of the way. 

 

 

But it's not the same amount of backlash either way. No matter what kind of nerf they do they get all the normal nerf threads, but if they stealth nerf they get these threads on top of those. People are still talking about the issue, they're just talking about this too now. People are more than capable of raging on multiple topics at once. For example, the Excal nerf has gotten about the same amount of attention as the Synoid nerf, but count how many threads there are about the stealth aspect of the Excal nerf. They get way more backlash when they hide something, that's been proven time and time again. Hence this thread.

(got it)

 

I agree, it's not the "same" amount, but the issue that gets pushed out from under the microscope is the nerf. And what gets put under there is the "ambiguous" issue of stealth nerfs. No one can 100% prove either way that it is or is not malicious. What I'm saying is that DE is fine with these type of threads, since it's never proven one way or the other, and DE can mostly "ignore" these because of that. What they can't really ignore is when their playerbase comes together and says "this sucks, fix it dammit."

 

 

I find this to be much more likely. It's obvious they're even emotionally invested in Warframe as a game, and if they don't care about their playerbase they're doing a damn good job pretending to, but as you pointed out it's simply not their area of expertise. They've never done a F2P before, I'm pretty sure they've never done an RPG before either. Up until now, all they've really done are PvP games and Dark Sector, and Dark Sector was all but ripped from their hands by the publishers. 

 

And even further, Warframe itself started as little more than a tech demo. Go back and watch some of the pre-CBT interviews with Steve and all them, they only expected the game to be something people played for maybe a few hours and they just used Warframe as a setting for the game because they thought it was cool. It feels like they're just making it up as they go sometimes, and I would not be surprised if that was actually the case.

See, I really would like to believe they just have no idea what they're doing (to say it poorly), but I'm not sure I believe that anymore. There have been so many opportunities for them to reduce the grind that it really looks like they just don't care. The void, a token system supplement was asked for since the void was introduced pretty much, for example. I'm not expecting to never have to grind or farm, I'm fine with it. But sometimes they take it to pretty crazy levels, i.e. if you want a maxed out arcane enhancement, you need 10 of the same ones. That's fine, the problem is with how many runs it'll take, and there are twenty possible rewards. Obvious problem is obvious.

[Flowen231]

Again, insults. 

 

And do you even hear how silly that all sounds? I mean, just apply Occam's Razor before you start: is it more likely that they've undertaken a (literally) years-long PR racket for essentially no reason, or do they mean well and are just unable to execute? I know Occam's Razor is just a guideline of sorts, but honestly, the gymnastics required to make that theory fit what evidence we have almost instantly falsify it.

Dude... have you been reading our conversation at all? YOU are the one who started arguing with me over my opinion. YOU are the one who started insulting me. I have never once insulted you; You are the one insulting me for no reason whatsoever.

 

And YES, that's what I'm saying. Neither of us has any proof other than DE's past actions, decisions, and their word which is shaky at best. What is going on is as follows: I'm telling you why I think DE is not very trustworthy, I'm telling you the reasons why I believe that, and YOU are telling me I'm wrong and just using the other half of the proverbial "what if" coin as means to back up your own biased claims. As if claiming your opinion is right and mine is wrong wasn't enough, you then insult me, and when I reply back (without the insults mind you) you claim that I am indeed insulting you in some form. 

 

And my opinion will not change. DE has done questionable things in the past, and they show very little signs of actually caring about the playerbase (look at how many game breaking bugs are still in the game like falling through the floor, host migration, UI freezes, and all DE seems to care about is adding more and more content, and fixing minor bugs instead of ironing out some of these bigger bugs.). And for me, that's enough for my trust in them to waver. Nothing you say will make me think otherwise.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Flowen231

[vaugahn]

What they can't really ignore is when their playerbase comes together and says "this sucks, fix it dammit."

 

That's what's happening one section over though.

 

See, I really would like to believe they just have no idea what they're doing (to say it poorly), but I'm not sure I believe that anymore. There have been so many opportunities for them to reduce the grind that it really looks like they just don't care. The void, a token system supplement was asked for since the void was introduced pretty much, for example. I'm not expecting to never have to grind or farm, I'm fine with it. But sometimes they take it to pretty crazy levels, i.e. if you want a maxed out arcane enhancement, you need 10 of the same ones. That's fine, the problem is with how many runs it'll take, and there are twenty possible rewards. Obvious problem is obvious.

 

Token system would be such a bad idea. For a token system to work the void would have to be totally restructured, in its current form a token system would destroy what little longevity we have, and potentially make the grind even worse. I'm glad they haven't gone for that option yet, it would be a disaster.

 

Overall the grind has gone down, but it's gotten so much wider that it doesn't really feel like it. If this analogy makes any sense, the puddle has gotten shallower but it covers more area now.

 

And yeah, the arcane enhancements are a problem. They suffer from augment-itis, but worse because of how they're acquired. Hopefully as more raids come out the RNG hell on those gets split up.

 

Dude... have you been reading our conversation at all? YOU are the one who started arguing with me over my opinion. YOU are the one who started insulting me. I have never once insulted you; You are the one insulting me for no reason whatsoever.

 

I have never said anything to you. I've done nothing but disagree with your points, and if you can't handle that I suggest you not be on a discussion forum. You're the one who's resorted to ad hominem as your argument lost steam.

 

Neither of us has any proof other than DE's past actions, decisions, and their word

 

That's a lot of proof, dude. That's like saying you can't tell what kind of person someone is even though you know how they speak and act.

 

And my opinion will not change. DE has done questionable things in the past, and they show very little signs of actually caring about the playerbase (look at how many game breaking bugs are still in the game like falling through the floor, host migration, UI freezes, and all DE seems to care about is adding more and more content, and fixing minor bugs instead of ironing out some of these bigger bugs.). And for me, that's enough for my trust in them to waver. Nothing you say will make me think otherwise.

 

[Flowen231]

That's what's happening one section over though.

 

 

Token system would be such a bad idea. For a token system to work the void would have to be totally restructured, in its current form a token system would destroy what little longevity we have, and potentially make the grind even worse. I'm glad they haven't gone for that option yet, it would be a disaster.

 

Overall the grind has gone down, but it's gotten so much wider that it doesn't really feel like it. If this analogy makes any sense, the puddle has gotten shallower but it covers more area now.

 

And yeah, the arcane enhancements are a problem. They suffer from augment-itis, but worse because of how they're acquired. Hopefully as more raids come out the RNG hell on those gets split up.

 

 

I have never said anything to you. I've done nothing but disagree with your points, and if you can't handle that I suggest you not be on a discussion forum. You're the one who's resorted to ad hominem as your argument lost steam.

 

 

That's a lot of proof, dude. That's like saying you can't tell what kind of person someone is even though you know how they speak and act.

 

 

I never had an argument, I had an opinion, for which you started arguing with me.

 

Yes, I agree, and from what I've seen, they are a bit underhanded, they lie, and are not trustworthy. 

 

Please read my post again I believe I mentioned

And my opinion will not change. DE has done questionable things in the past, and they show very little signs of actually caring about the playerbase (look at how many game breaking bugs are still in the game like falling through the floor, host migration, UI freezes, and all DE seems to care about is adding more and more content, and fixing minor bugs instead of ironing out some of these bigger bugs.). And for me, that's enough for my trust in them to waver. Nothing you say will make me think otherwise.

As in, bugs that don't make the game unplayable at times.

 

Actually, I've grown a bit tired of this keyboard slap fight, I'm just gonna exit stage left. Have fun proving your point man.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Flowen231

[vaugahn]

I never had an argument, I had an opinion, for which you started arguing with me.

 

Nobody was even arguing with you. It's called a discussion, it's a thing two people with differing opinions have. You were the one who couldn't keep things on topic and felt a need to attack me instead of my position. Or did I misinterpret this:

 

the fact that you're covering for DE so strongly makes it seem as though you enjoy it when someone takes advantage of you. 

[AlphaHorseman]

It's quite sad that this thread has gone on this long, and received so much player attention, and yet DE does not wish to respond or speak about this topic.

[AM-Bunny]

It's quite sad that this thread has gone on this long, and received so much player attention, and yet DE does not wish to respond or speak about this topic.

 

There's not a lot in OP that facilitates a real discussion or warrants a response. What do you honestly want them to say? "Sorry about that, we'll try to do better in the future"? They've said that before, and in the context of this thread, it wouldn't be worth much.

 

People in this thread are just looking for an excuse to pounce on any and every word a developer might speak and try to hang them with it. It's this sort of attitude that leads to the developers keeping quiet in the first place.