De's Word And Its Lack Of Integrity: Another Viewpoint From Another Long-Time Player

[Kasseopea]

They did add rare fusion core packs as rewards in a bunch of places, and dumped 200 rare fusion cores as alerts. The latter being a short-term grind solution, admittedly, but the prior has done some good. They also fixed the dark sector credit bug so it's giving out more credits now.

Though I will say that the economy is definitely balanced in such a way that they don't appear to want people to be able to afford to do a heck of a lot without buying boosters (or play a stupid amount). And part of the problem there is that a lot of the ways to make credits are out of reach for new players. It can be very, very hard to start off in Warframe now because DE appears to be trying to control longtime players' spending, and I think it's hurting the early game more than anything.

Anyway, there's more to be done obviously. I think this thread is way over the top. This Excalibur nerf thing is not a good tipping point to start calling them liars or untrustworthy. Criticism is warranted and we should keep pointing out the places where the game is going off the rails, but y'know. That will always apply to any developer who is actively trying to make money. It's a careful balance, making money and also making a fun game. They are bound to mess up that balance from time to time, and they are more likely to err on the side of keeping the studio in the black, than keeping the game fun at the expense of potentially losing significant amounts of revenue.

Just the nature of the game.

The Ex nerf isn't why we are calling them liars and untrustworthy. The reason is that they lie into our very faces with a smug smile and tell us how they want to reduce grind and increase the fun, while doing exactly the contrary.

If they went out and said "We aren't making enough money, so we will have to reduce the amount of creds you get and make everything more and more tedious" that would have been at least honest if nothing else. This way they sit there, lie their asses off and we are supposed to thank them for that? No way.

 

When i started this game i went with my Lv16 Mag to Kril and fcked him up with my MK1 Braton while hiding in corners and waiting for my shields to regenerate. Yes it took hours on end, but when i managed a couple of times, i was proud and had my Frost. There was enough cash for that in my bank, enough materials and enough fun in doing things, because everything was new and awesome.

 

And what is left now? So i have ~750 hours in this game. I have the Warframes i like, the weapons i like and the companions i like. Even some cash stuff like Syndanas or Color Pallets. We were supposed to get end-game content. New, awesome weapons and Warframes. Challenging, rewarding, engaging missions.

 

What we got is a bugged-as-fck raid, that offers no significant or wanted reward whatsoever, that requires millions and millions in credits to even be used. We have now even less means to get credits. And then we also have a Warframe, that had an intentionally bad design, so they can act as if they listened to the community, so we don't b!tch about the WEEK it requires to be built. A fckn week.

 

Seriously, Year of Quality™

[Vadrigos]

The only part of DE I see as functioning even remotely well right now is the art department...and even then I'm not sure...

[WanderoftheAether]

The sad thing is, i started to trust DE, thinking that it had learned its lesson after Vivergate, especially after they buffed the Rakta Ballistica. I started to believe that this update was going to be awesome. The Sentients, Raids & the new Quest for Chroma seemed to make me want to jump on the new Prime.

 

But after this update, the Excal Radial Javelin nerf, the lack of interest in the Law of Retribution Raids & so many lack of care when it came to letting us know about its nerfs (supposely), i . . . . . . really dont know what to say other than "really, DE!?". Why? why backtrack so much? it doesnt make sense.

 

I was planning on getting the Volt Prime Access, but after this . . . . . . .

 

No.

 

No more.

 

No more of my money until you fix what you broke.

 

you know, DE. We have a saying: "if its not broken, dont fix it"

[KvotheTheArcane1]

you know, DE. We have a saying: "if its not broken, dont fix it"

You know what DE says:

 

"If it works, break it. Then claim we can fix it better than it was before while ignoring it after a half assed attempt to fix it."

[Tyrhal]

To the community:

I am a software developer myself. I feel for you DE. The situation you are dealing with is something my coworkers and I deal with on a daily basis. For the community what I’m talking about is new development vs support. Most developers want to create new and amazing content, but software ALWAYS has bugs. There is no perfect code out there no matter what any programmer says. I spend at least 75% of my day fixing, patching, and testing. The other 25% (if I’m lucky) is spent working on a new feature we may or may not use.

 

Point 1:

This is not new knowledge for most, but I’ll share it as criticism as stated in the Ops disclaimer. This game is non subscription. That being said, DE makes their money on new content. Old content will still be purchased, but not nearly as much as new content. Basic supply and demand. The community wants new content, DE makes, they buy, and repeat.

 

Point 2:

Balancing is not new to games. Most new updates, and patches remind me of a quote, “You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain. (Harvey Dent The Dark Knight)” You look at all long running mmos and I feel like this is accurate. I bring up mmos because of the time they have lived not the comparison of game style.

 

To DE:

In point 1 I understand you make money off of your new content, but look at what your business model is. Make OP new weapon/frame and make initial profit off of it (first week maybe 2) then make it easier to farm, or at the very least the non-purchasing farmers have it. Lastly, now that the community is starting to get it (aka it’s now used by more than just a handful of players) and nerf the crap out of it. Repeat this process. I have been playing from update 3 and I am now numb to this cycle sadly.

 

In point 2 I used that quote because what is happening to Warframe is not a new situation. The balance with Devs and Players is fragile (this post is proof for example), but at what point do you sit down and ask your selves this question, “On our next BIG update (17, 18, 19,…) do we not add new content and realize the original scope of the game has grown too big and rewrite it from the ground up, or do we keep adding new content, milk this cow till its dead, and go down with the ship?”

Finally a guy that kinda understands the situation here.

 

The way I see it, DE is on the right path to make things work once again. The problem is that DE is blunt with their changes to the game and doesn't disclose it for us. We may feel it in-game but we can't read up on it. Their lack of communication is the problem here. In my eyes, recent game changes may lead to an increase of Warframe's longevitxy in the long run. Right now players are upset - and I can understand why. Nobody told them, the changes happen sudden and it's a bit late into development where they make these nessecary changes without warning.

 

But in the long run, Warframe might live longer. Because if the power surge generated by the void and other places where you could get a lot of really good stuff in a short time frame continues and you can beat the crap outta anything in the game, the balance becomes Corrupted, the Corpus of the game falls apart and DE won't Grin from eer to eer anymore. What I am saying is: nerfing the rewards and removing some old content is a good thing in the long run. Relocating content is an even better decision. DE is taking the right steps but a little bit too clumsily. But in the future this game might still live.

[ThePresident777]

Churning through content is what few people would call game development.  But, it's what DE and a lot of game companies do.  Instead of leaving people's toys alone and making new ones, game companies prefer to break all the toys and call it change and game development. 

 

It's not change.  It's not game development.  It's vandalism and that's what anybody, including software developers would, call it if it happened to their house, their car, or anything they bought, no matter what the EULA said.  In fact, not one game developer would buy anything that came with an agreement stating that the manufacturer could change it at any time, with or without notice, and had a history of doing so.

 

Yet, they expect the rest of us to put up with it.

 

EULA or no EULA, we expect our fun to remain fun, not vandalized, then told stuff we do not believe.

 

DE, and all game developers, should have a sense of purpose and customer when they create content, like any other business, then leave it alone and move on to creating the next product, not try to endlessly repurpose everything people are enjoying.  Customers buy products with the expectation that it will not be taken away from them or vandalized, or repurposed.

 

If vandalism and unbelievable justifications are the future of gaming then it's going to die or become a cult of self sacrifice and idiocy.

Edited March 24, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Xikiri]

Churning through content is what few people would call game development.  But, it's what DE and a lot of game companies do.  Instead of leaving people's toys alone and making new ones, game companies prefer to break all the toys and call it change and game development. 

 

It's not change.  It's not game development.  It's vandalism and that's what anybody, including software developers would, call it if it happened to their house, their car, or anything they bought, no matter what the EULA said.  In fact, not one game developer would buy anything that came with an agreement stating that the manufacturer could change it at any time, with or without notice, and had a history of doing so.

 

Yet, they expect the rest of us to put up with it.

 

EULA or no EULA, we expect our fun to remain fun, not vandalized, then told stuff we do not believe.

 

DE, and all game developers, should have a sense of purpose and customer when they create content, like any other business, then leave it alone and move on to creating the next product, not try to endlessly repurpose everything people are enjoying.  Customers buy products with the expectation that it will not be taken away from them or vandalized, or repurposed.

 

If vandalism and unbelievable justifications are the future of gaming then it's going to die or become a cult of self sacrifice and idiocy.

That was beautiful, and it properly sums up quite a bit of my post. 

[Kasseopea]

How are some people managing to defend the DE by now?! I mean, k, i know there are fanboys, but this amount of zealous fervor is just stunning.

 

They objectively fcked up and nerfed our fun directly. We get no credits, we get tougher enemies and missions, while receiving less and less credits for the stuff we need to complete these missions. Now they released Volt Prime - with a fckn Latron Prime mocking us on his avatar picture in the wiki. He doesn't even has his own weapons. So what? The Orokin had Prime Archwings but no Prime Archwing weapons?!? Aha, yeah, right.

 

But hey - we got prime accessories and fck if i know what we would do without those, because we clearly needed them more than a Galatine Prime or a Prime sniper weapon.

[NobleHawk]

How are some people managing to defend the DE by now?! I mean, k, i know there are fanboys, but this amount of zealous fervor is just stunning.

 

I take it you're not familiar with fanboyism. For instance, the fanboys of Warhammer 40k...

[MichaelSD]

DE, and all game developers, should have a sense of purpose and customer when they create content, like any other business, then leave it alone and move on to creating the next product, not try to endlessly repurpose everything people are enjoying.  Customers buy products with the expectation that it will not be taken away from them or vandalized, or repurposed.

 

If vandalism and unbelievable justifications are the future of gaming then it's going to die or become a cult of self sacrifice and idiocy.

 

I agree absolutely. I feel there absolutely no sense of direction in their development. Why ogris skin, Simaris and co, when Archwing is so hollow that I can hear my own voice in it, enough frames to fix, etc.

The new parts of the game do not take into account the old part. Archwing could be in any other game, without problems. Most missions / quests tell noting about universe, nor do they help immersions.

Fancy graphics won't changes that.

[HandsomeSorcerer]

Take it a notch down guys. The fanboys are annoying, but thats what the ignore function is for.

 

I agree with almost all criticism to DE:

For me, its ok if they want to make grinding harder, maybe not ok, but understandable. Over the past 8-10 months, DE has done some pretty stupid decisions. I could forgive DE for nerfing credit rewards from dark sectors, but why do they keep introducing enemies, gameplay elements nobody sane wants to fight or play with?

 

I had lot of fun when I started playing this game, going hours killing the infested in solo. I wasnt even farming, I just enjoyed killing them in melee ,and then they introduced tar/goo moas.Its frustrating now. This is just an example. People who have the capital, will want to "Get" the item they want with money and play for fun.I know thats what I want so I hypothesise others do aswell.

 

I dont know, how the hell does DE expect people to invest in the game when the basic gameplay is more annoying than it was 1 year ago.

 

Another aspect is coptering. Some noobs  made threads about removing it, but I know something for sure, if you slow down the game intentionally to adhere to the lowest common denominator and intentionally prohibit movement, like the stanima system, it is going to backfire..

Even a first year student in Computer Science can tell you that

 

I am sure DE employs graduates, but in terms of game design, they have introduced some pretty S#&$ty ideas. Take the feedback for what its worth, but please, lessen the frustration in gameplay.

 

Its a game, it should be at foremost enjoyable. Restricting vision, slowing your character movement and even firerate, 5-6 nullifiers spawning, napalm and bombards spawning en masse might seem alright, but it really isnt.

 

This post isnt directed at DE. Its directed at anyone reading this.

Only you can get the message across to DE.

Edited March 25, 2015 by HandsomeSorcerer

[CyklonDX]

i would spend whole week reading through all posts. But I belive mogamu video states it all, and original post. The sealth nerfing started much earlier, and they took away power to catch them on lie by presenting numbers by encrypting loot tables.

Edited March 25, 2015 by CyklonDX

[MichaelSD]

Take it a notch down guys. The fanboys are annoying, but thats what the ignore function is for.

 

I agree with almost all criticism to DE:

For me, its ok if they want to make grinding harder, maybe not ok, but understandable. Over the past 8-10 months, DE has done some pretty stupid decisions. I could forgive DE for nerfing credit rewards from dark sectors, but why do they keep introducing enemies, gameplay elements nobody sane wants to fight or play with?

 

No, no, no, no!!!! They did not nerf grind. Rep farming still goes on. It worked after U16 adn it works even better after 16.1. Where did they nerf grinding?

Even if they would have stopped rep farming with Excalibur, there several other frames which could take over Excalibur's place.

 

Why do people think that grinding is harder, it is not.

[Yazeth]

I am getting disheartened with DE's recent actions against farming and grind. I don't really have much to say, since everything is right in our faces. Anyways, I really hope DE will make amends ASAP, because going against their "year of quality" promise will be one of their biggest mistakes yet.

[MichaelSD]

I am getting disheartened with DE's recent actions against farming and grind. I don't really have much to say, since everything is right in our faces. Anyways, I really hope DE will make amends ASAP, because going against their "year of quality" promise will be one of their biggest mistakes yet.

 

Agreed.

[Kilthemall]

I will not take this post seriously til I see some links on the first post showing their source from where they claim DE promised all these things and made these changes. No company is perfect. They made a mistake of removing LOS on radial javelin on purpose or not. either way they feel it should be there. It makes the game just that much more detailed. Why should we be able to stab people we dont see? if you have an issue go make a better game... Oh... U wont... Cause DE is doing that. Stop being petty and be realistic. Build them up not tear them down. Keep strong DE most gamers are monsters. I will kill them with the new radial javelin all the same.

[Xikiri]

I will not take this post seriously til I see some links... 

...

if you have an issue go make a better game... Oh... U wont... 

I was going to. I was going to respond to you with links after links. Was. I don't take kindly to rudeness when I've poured my gamer's heart into something like this.

You've been a member of the Warframe community since March of last year. The fact you haven't a clue as to any of what I've said is really confusing. Have you, even once, watched a Devstream? How out of the loop are you? And, if it sounds like any of this response sounds harsh or defensive, that isn't my intent.

 

Be honest with yourself. Am I, a person who knows naught of coding, going to make a game better than Warframe? No. Am I going to make a game better than Sonic '06, The Slaughtering Grounds, or Street Fighter Triple Ex 3-Dee (or whatever version they're on now)? Of course not. I believe Jim Sterling said it best. I'm not going to attempt to make something to prove something when I know I can't. That's silly. You're being silly. This isn't a bloody contest and that's no argument and no way to go about asking for things. Now, if you were to edit that around a little and be a bit more polite, then sure. I'll provide you with the proof you eh... "asked" for in your opening sentence. 

Edited March 25, 2015 by OutrightMakoto

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I will not take this post seriously til I see some links on the first post showing their source from where they claim DE promised all these things and made these changes.

I don't remember which LS it was, think it was 6ish or something (for the grind). If you're talking about stealth nerfs, then you're just blind.

 

No company is perfect. They made a mistake of removing LOS on radial javelin on purpose or not. either way they feel it should be there.

It was on purpose for one, and two, just because they "feel" it should be that way is just their viewpoint. And while they are the devs, and they have the right to do it, it doesn't mean they should.

 

It makes the game just that much more detailed.

"Detailed"? You mean "Realistic"? Excuse me while I go stomp so hard with rhino I stop @(*()$ time for enemies. Or teleport them to another dimension. Or summon ice strong enough to block any bullet. Or so on.

 

Why should we be able to stab people we dont see?

Why should we be able to stop/massively slow time by stomping? You're using logic in warframe. The game where by spinning in midair you propel yourself to incredible speeds. Or by striking an enemy with a melee weapon, you heal. Etc.

 

if you have an issue go make a better game... Oh... U wont... Cause DE is doing that. Stop being petty and be realistic. Build them up not tear them down.

"Build them up, not tear them down"? Sorry, didn't realise valid criticism was "tearing them down". Or being petty (even though he is being realisitic by pointing out a huge flaw).

 

Keep strong DE most gamers are monsters.

Wow, that's rude. I think most gamers simply expect a fair shake from a game company, and feel like they shouldn't need to worry about their stuff being stealth nerfed, or things suddenly changing on them without mention.

[XAN3MK]

-snip-

 

I just came here to give you an upvote for quoting Jim Sterling, the context couldn't have been better.

 

Props for keeping this thread rolling.

[Boatsniper]

How much of this video can you also associate with DE?

 

https://youtu.be/EC0mkuM1FYI?t=40s

 

Remember when they "apologized" again, and again, and again for problems that should not have occurred more than once? Constantly apologizing, often for the same thing, is the biggest sign of an abusive relationship. Furthermore, the community keeps making the mistake of letting DE back in, hoping they will change their ways for the better. The vicious cycle of abuse continues on, stronger than ever. There is no meaningful apology that can make up for this kind of distrust.

 

Remember Ced23Ric's Resignation Letter? Remember Nugget_'s Bitter Thread? Hell, while I'm at it I may as well post my year-and-a-half old thread on Mission Depth just to add that much more fuel to the fire. I have completely surrendered on giving any more feedback, seeing as they don't want to hear what Ced23Ric, Nugget_, theGreatZamboni, notionphil, Hayden11121, or anyone else has to say about the game.

[WanderoftheAether]

How much of this video can you also associate with DE?

 

https://youtu.be/EC0mkuM1FYI?t=40s

 

Remember when they "apologized" again, and again, and again for problems that should not have occurred more than once? Constantly apologizing, often for the same thing, is the biggest sign of an abusive relationship. Furthermore, the community keeps making the mistake of letting DE back in, hoping they will change their ways for the better. The vicious cycle of abuse continues on, stronger than ever. There is no meaningful apology that can make up for this kind of distrust.

 

Remember Ced23Ric's Resignation Letter? Remember Nugget_'s Bitter Thread? Hell, while I'm at it I may as well post my year-and-a-half old thread on Mission Depth just to add that much more fuel to the fire. I have completely surrendered on giving any more feedback, seeing as they don't want to hear what Ced23Ric, Nugget_, theGreatZamboni, notionphil, Hayden11121, or anyone else has to say about the game.

True, way too true

 

Normally, the "apologized" concept would stick if you didnt have the drooling diehard Fans of a franchise or company keep falling for the same routine & shoveling money to the companies to allow them to keep the cycle going.

 

I personally believed that DE could redeem its self after Vivergate, but after this recent patch, my faith in them failed. ive only had this happen once, and that was Vivergate. when they nerfed Excal, Mag, Trin & Limbo to try to counteract the Farming at Viver, the community raged something fierce, after which they then undid the nerfs and apologized. I believed them & was willing to spend my money on this game . . . . . at first.

 

I started to believe them further when they buffed the Synoid Gammacor because the community said it was too weak, and i even held on to the Rakta Ballistica even though every one said that it was a waste of time BECAUSE I BELIEVED in DE and thought that they would buff it even further, and i was right! To be honest, I thought they would be different than other Dev and Game Companies because i believed that they would listen to us and respect our wishes . . . . . . .at least until now.

 

After the Excal RJ nerf, and not just this one but several other "stealth nerfs", i literally felt betrayed and shattered. I was looking forward to U16 and the Tomb of the Sentients, but after this . . . . . . no.

 

No.

 

Just NO.

 

I know of the saying: Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

I wont make the same mistake twice.

 

DE wont get any of my money . . . . . .Period. Unless they prove that they can ACTUALLY LEARN FROM PAST MISTAKES, IM NOT GIVING THEM ONE MORE CENT!

[ZoneDymo]

My simple opinion:

 

I think way too many people treat this game like cookieclicker or alternatives like that.

They dont care about gameplay, just about collecting stuff and they want to do that with as little dedication as possible.

 

So when their "be nearly full braindead/afk yet kill everything by spamming 4" is taken away they get mad, because not they actually have to use weapons and aim and move around and hide and well....play the game...

[Nyaughty]

You're right because nerfing the void and dark sector credits rewards by 50% and having Chroma's parts require other Warframe components is clearly decreasing the grind.

yes you need to grind a lot to get that volt helmet or that ember helmet...

do you remember the grind on hydroid's release? 

i call this an improvement

plus: by playing excal and spamming 4 you are GRINDING, when this gets nerfed, grinding is nerfed and you no longer just sit afk spamming 4 with a macro but you have to PLAY THE GAME

pretty much everbody who cries on t his post is an excal player who can no longer afk farm with his 4-spamm macro

Edited March 26, 2015 by Alodapos

[doctical]

My simple opinion:

 

I think way too many people treat this game like cookieclicker or alternatives like that.

They dont care about gameplay, just about collecting stuff and they want to do that with as little dedication as possible.

 

So when their "be nearly full braindead/afk yet kill everything by spamming 4" is taken away they get mad, because not they actually have to use weapons and aim and move around and hide and well....play the game...

i don't think you understand what so many people are unhappy about. it's not that they changed javelin, it's that they tried to hide it while making plenty promises of making the game less grindy.

 

also what about the new weapon nerfs? synoid gammacor was op for a secondary but kohm was solid and fun. dps on paper doesn't mean much since they use unreasonably high rof mods that would bleed you dry. why does de hate shotguns?

[Boatsniper]

yes you need to grind a lot to get that volt helmet or that ember helmet...

do you remember the grind on hydroid's release? 

i call this an improvement

plus: by playing excal and spamming 4 you are GRINDING, when this gets nerfed, grinding is nerfed and you no longer just sit afk spamming 4 with a macro but you have to PLAY THE GAME

pretty much everbody who cries on t his post is an excal player who can no longer afk farm with his 4-spamm macro

There's a term for that.