First Impressions On Pvp 2.0 From A Conclave 1.0 Veteran

[Auramaru]

I say that I'm a Conclave 1.0 Veteran simply to give you an idea of where my bias is leaning and to give you an understanding that I am not just some "randy" coming into this for the first time.

 

First, specific problems I've seen with the new Conclave:

 

-Ultimates disallow the idea of "competitive gameplay". Back on Europa Conclave, it was actually possible to "deny energy" tactically because there was only one pickup location... However, there is just too much energy on these new maps to enable tactical denial of energy. It's too easy to get the energy, the abilities are far too overpowered, and the disrupt the "slow TTK" style you've been going for.

 

-Stamina Recharge is too slow.  This isn't too large of a problem as much as it is an annoyance. It is obvious that Warframe is renowned for its fast, exhilarating gameplay... And I gotta say: whatever you guys did to the stamina recharge rate in PVP is a HUGE buzzkill. Tenno are supposed to be ninja, not supposed to be out of breath after 15 seconds of running. (Quick Rest seems completely useless).

 

-Melee is too powerful of a crutch for anyone who isn't keen to gun-play. I say this lightly, but I think we've all seen it... Charged Dual Skana attacks are more lethal than a Paris. For the shear lack of skill required for slide attacks, they should not deal so much damage, especially since you can spam it.  

(Sidenote: I think DE's idea behind leaving slide-attack-damage so high... was that we wouldn't have the stamina for it because they lowered stamina recharge, however that clearly wasn't the case.)

 

-"One Abilities" deal absurd amounts of damage. Considering how abundant energy drops are in PVP, it blows my mind that Shock, Slash-Dash, and Rhino Charge are this lethal.  Once again, this disallows for competitive gameplay as players use abilities as a crutch for lack of skill in gun-play. Sure, allow some damage... but a "Rhino Charge" should never outweigh the work of a Paris.

 

-The new maps do not utilize parkour in any way.  Take a look at old Europa conclave... People played that same map for years. Why? Because it utilized parkour beautifully, it allowed for passive and aggressive playstyles, and it allowed for tactical denial of energy.  These new maps, at the very most, utilize our ability to jump and directional melee. It is incredibly disheartening to see this (for all the old conclave regulars and veterans). Not that we ever had the stamina (or speed) to parkour anyway.

 

-Guns simply don't do enough damage. Simply put: if you hit a player with a Paris, it should kill - no matter what. In old conclave, if there was a player using a bow... it was instant respect. Bows were hard to use at that time and right now, they are basically our sniper rifles. It is arguably the most skilled weapon type to use in the game and it is sad that it isn't a guaranteed kill at max-charge. (And before you argue that it is in fact a one-shot, I've seen it countless times now where I hit a beautiful shot and just see a disappointing white number)

(Sidenote: this is a hard concept/opinion to sell to readers as the argument is clearly, "Just headshot".  However, when sniping, it isn't always that simple)

 

-Rhino Skin should not give CC immunity in PVP. It is bad enough that rhino skin gives him a shield, but anyone using the kogake against a rhino with dual skanas just loses. Hands down, you've got no chance. Even after the nerf, this ability gives a ridiculous advantage and ONCE AGAIN we look at how easy it is to obtain 50 energy *looks at 8 energy drops*. Possible solution? Make the rhino skin deteriorate over time (hella slow) or remove CC immunity.

 

-Far too much energy on the map. As you look at how incredibly lethal abilities can be... I question the logic behind placing so many energy drops on the map. It disallows for competitive gameplay and disallows for the possibility of tactical denial of energy.

 

These are very basic problems with the PVP and have been talked over and over among my clanmates. We love PVP and we love this game... but there is much work to be done. 

 

I fail to remind myself often enough:

 

 

[TheErebus.]

'Tis the birth of a new game-mode, it'll be improved and become something enjoyable for all.

 

At least...for those who are interested in PvP.

[Rakosta_Kai]

I don't entirely agree with all of your points, but see they are well thought out.

 

I think the big question is whether they are going for a Shooter competitive pvp  balancing method or a type you would find in an MMORPG.

The game is a hybrid and the old conclave seemed to lean toward shooters and cheap melee.

 

The current version leans toward powers and cheap melee.

 

If it's a shooter then it makes more sense to emphasize the guns.

If it is going to be MMO style then managing power is going to be the bigger deal.

If it's really going to be an effective hybrid, something has to act to balance abilities, guns, and melee and also act as a foil to all of those.

 

To me, the issue is that players lack the health and shields that will allow some of the seemingly OP stuff to be normalized.

Frame powers and melee don't appear to be balanced against current hp and shields.

[Auramaru]

I don't entirely agree with all of your points, but see they are well thought out.

 

I think the big question is whether they are going for a Shooter competitive pvp  balancing method or a type you would find in an MMORPG.

The game is a hybrid and the old conclave seemed to lean toward shooters and cheap melee.

 

The current version leans toward powers and cheap melee.

 

If it's a shooter then it makes more sense to emphasize the guns.

If it is going to be MMO style then managing power is going to be the bigger deal.

If it's really going to be an effective hybrid, something has to act to balance abilities, guns, and melee and also act as a foil to all of those.

 

To me, the issue is that players lack the health and shields that will allow some of the seemingly OP stuff to be normalized.

Frame powers and melee don't appear to be balanced against current hp and shields.

Old conclave was a twitch-aim-shooter... People used melee for mobility, nothing more (although it depends what update we're talking about). 

 

I do agree with you though... If they focused around abilities, the only way to do things is to either make them less powerful or increase current hp and shields.

[Alex]

'Tis the birth of a new game-mode, it'll be improved and become something enjoyable for all.

 

At least...for those who are interested in PvP.

This sub-forum is full of BS people who never once stepped into Europa-Conclave.

Everything Aura said is accurate.

 

PVP 2.0 is weak and was obviously not tested by anyone actually in the PVP scene.

 

- one hit kill skill spamming

- One hit kill melee spin spamming

- Guns don't do enough damage to be anything close to useful

- Fast-paced movement has been completely removed from pvp

- Host migration game resets

- Flags disappearing from matches

 

This update from the perspective of PVP was a complete failure.

[TheErebus.]

This sub-forum is full of BS people who never once stepped into Europa-Conclave.

Everything Aura said is accurate.

 

PVP 2.0 is weak and was obviously not tested by anyone actually in the PVP scene.

 

- one hit kill skill spamming

- One hit kill melee spin spamming

- Guns don't do enough damage to be anything close to useful

- Fast-paced movement has been completely removed from pvp

- Host migration game resets

- Flags disappearing from matches

 

This update from the perspective of PVP was a complete failure.

Did I ever say he's wrong?

Have I even attempted to refute any of his points? No. I haven't.

 

All I said is that it's in its infancy, and of course will have problems. I never said these aren't problems. Please read next time before jumping onto someone.

Edited March 22, 2015 by ScrublordPrime

[Thalahssalyst]

Old conclave was a twitch-aim-shooter... People used melee for mobility, nothing more (although it depends what update we're talking about). 

 

 

This is why they need to remove the coptering... melee weapons made for kill, no for mobility (except for the new directional)

Coptering=RUSH (on new pvp mode)

Rhinos with Iron skin, energy everywhere and coptering with fang prime and bo, it is really impossible to kill.

(if they say its aim, use a boar prime with the current damage and tell me)

its assumed that melee are more powerful, are our weapons in excellence.

maybe, not like the damage, they are always using it to mobility and not to kill as it should be.

 

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Honestly, just take out the abilities.

 

Its easy to dodge spam slides I do it all the time. And parkour is really advantageous on the new maps, idk what you are saying.

 

The weapons are pretty well balanced for the most part. imo

 

As for your paris argument. Nothing should one shot unless it hits the head. It like in unreal tournament, and u had the sniper, if that thing 1 shoted no matter what, oh boy there would be problems.

 

Some or your points are too radical, but for the most part (and i can't believe Im saying this) I kinda agree.

[Ronyn]

I say that I'm a Conclave 1.0 Veteran simply to give you an idea of where my bias is leaning and to give you an understanding that I am not just some "randy" coming into this for the first time.

I appreciate this intro. A bit about me I played some Conclave in the old system but found it very lacking in many regards.

So while I did play it, I would not say that I played it extensively. Of course a lot of people weren't pleased with Warframes PVP offerings, which is why it was never that popular in terms of raw player numbers and why DE has decided to remake it. 

So I look at this more from an overall "how to make this a good pvp game" perspective.

 

-Stamina Recharge is too slow.  This isn't too large of a problem as much as it is an annoyance. It is obvious that Warframe is renowned for its fast, exhilarating gameplay... And I gotta say: whatever you guys did to the stamina recharge rate in PVP is a HUGE buzzkill. Tenno are supposed to be ninja, not supposed to be out of breath after 15 seconds of running. (Quick Rest seems completely useless).

 

-Melee is too powerful of a crutch for anyone who isn't keen to gun-play. I say this lightly, but I think we've all seen it... Charged Dual Skana attacks are more lethal than a Paris. For the shear lack of skill required for slide attacks, they should not deal so much damage, especially since you can spam it.  

(Sidenote: I think DE's idea behind leaving slide-attack-damage so high... was that we wouldn't have the stamina for it because they lowered stamina recharge, however that clearly wasn't the case.)

 

-Guns simply don't do enough damage. Simply put: if you hit a player with a Paris, it should kill - no matter what. In old conclave, if there was a player using a bow... it was instant respect. Bows were hard to use at that time and right now, they are basically our sniper rifles. It is arguably the most skilled weapon type to use in the game and it is sad that it isn't a guaranteed kill at max-charge. (And before you argue that it is in fact a one-shot, I've seen it countless times now where I hit a beautiful shot and just see a disappointing white number)

(Sidenote: this is a hard concept/opinion to sell to readers as the argument is clearly, "Just headshot".  However, when sniping, it isn't always that simple)

As a matter of tuning you want more damage from guns and less from melee based on the idea that it's easier to use melee attacks than accurate gunplay...not sure on this one. I have to play test more.

 

 

-Ultimates disallow the idea of "competitive gameplay". Back on Europa Conclave, it was actually possible to "deny energy" tactically because there was only one pickup location... However, there is just too much energy on these new maps to enable tactical denial of energy. It's too easy to get the energy, the abilities are far too overpowered, and the disrupt the "slow TTK" style you've been going for.

 

-"One Abilities" deal absurd amounts of damage. Considering how abundant energy drops are in PVP, it blows my mind that Shock, Slash-Dash, and Rhino Charge are this lethal.  Once again, this disallows for competitive gameplay as players use abilities as a crutch for lack of skill in gun-play.

 

-Far too much energy on the map. As you look at how incredibly lethal abilities can be... I question the logic behind placing so many energy drops on the map. It disallows for competitive gameplay and disallows for the possibility of tactical denial of energy.

I would say that-

If energy was scarce the powers hitting so hard wouldn't be such an issue.

If powers didn't hit so hard plentiful energy wouldn't be such a problem.

Id argue we need things to go mostly one way or the other. 

I think if they lessened energy significantly AND lowered power damage significantly the result would be too much.

It would end up too slanted away from powers being an integral part of things and then frames become too homogenized....

and it becomes too much about using the frames with the best base stats. So we have to be careful with this one.

 

-Rhino Skin should not give CC immunity in PVP. It is bad enough that rhino skin gives him a shield, but anyone using the kogake against a rhino with dual skanas just loses. Hands down, you've got no chance. Even after the nerf, this ability gives a ridiculous advantage-

Eh..this reminds me.

Actually I think that crowd control as whole should be entirely re-examined for a pvp setting.

Freezing or stunning AI is fine. But freezing or stunning human players should be minimal and short lived across the board. 

Competative shooters and Action games usually keep crowd control WAY down. Warframe is such a game.

 

With that in mind, Iron Skin granting CC immunity (or perhaps just CC resilience) would be an advantage but wouldn't be quite as much of an advantage.

 

On your specific example-While I don't like full on hard counters in general:

I'd argue that in a face to face melee fight with rhino most frames should be at a major disadvantage. Each frame is supposed to have it's own strengths and weaknesses. It's own place to shine and it's own place to falter.

At long range a frame like mag should have the advantage over rhino, at point blank range the advantage should be rhinos.

I'd also point out that the certain melee weapons are based on the utility of crowd control while others are based on the idea of raw damage.

These should be expected to work better and worse against certain types of enemies.

[Hueminator]

Although this has its flaw, the bugs are annoying

[Rakosta_Kai]

Reading the comments after my own tells me that the players expect Conclave to be a pure shooter basically.

 

I don't entirely understand why though...

 

There's a metric ton of offerings that fit that description on the market now with most of them managing to be of both a higher quality and F2P (after a fashion).

 

Personally, I want something closer to an ME3 style of gameplay, tbh.

 

Something that encourages squad tactics and balances ranged, melee, and powers into one package.

The players that manage this cohesively are the most successful.

 

I didn't much bother with the previous Conclave incarnations because it was just a daisy chain of insta-gibs with OP weapons and slide attacks.

 

The current version is different and a balance improvement, but it's a long way from good, balanced, or stable at this point.

Likewise, DE still hasn't managed to inject "rewarding" into its' gameplay experiences for players.

[elele]

Reading the comments after my own tells me that the players expect Conclave to be a pure shooter basically.

 

I don't entirely understand why though...

 

There's a metric ton of offerings that fit that description on the market now with most of them managing to be of both a higher quality and F2P (after a fashion).

 

Personally, I want something closer to an ME3 style of gameplay, tbh.

 

Something that encourages squad tactics and balances ranged, melee, and powers into one package.

The players that manage this cohesively are the most successful.

 

I didn't much bother with the previous Conclave incarnations because it was just a daisy chain of insta-gibs with OP weapons and slide attacks.

 

This. Other than that ME3 doesn't have PVP. Secret World has ability-based PVP with guns and melee. 

[Rakshal]

Agreed with everything.

[Thalahssalyst]

The funniest of all this, is that i see several sides as demanded back old conclave. also the melee to be used for mobility exclusively by damage reduction.
now there are always people to play pvp, before you had time to be looking for people or reduce you to play with friends.
 

[Aggh]

This sub-forum is full of BS people who never once stepped into Europa-Conclave.

Everything Aura said is accurate.

 

PVP 2.0 is weak and was obviously not tested by anyone actually in the PVP scene.

 

- one hit kill skill spamming

- One hit kill melee spin spamming

- Guns don't do enough damage to be anything close to useful

- Fast-paced movement has been completely removed from pvp

- Host migration game resets

- Flags disappearing from matches

 

This update from the perspective of PVP was a complete failure.

Guns do enough damage for something close to a typical arena shooter ttk, the problem is that melee and abilities do too much damage.

 

 

 

The funniest of all this, is that i see several sides as demanded back old conclave. also the melee to be used for mobility exclusively by damage reduction.

now there are always people to play pvp, before you had time to be looking for people or reduce you to play with friends.

 

Imo that's more because of you don't have to deal with conclave ratings and there is actual centralized matchmaking instead of having it on the star chart.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Aggh

[Samoth95]

- Host migration game resets

- Flags disappearing from matches

These aren't PvP 2.0 Issues. These are 2 separate issues. One is "Bugs abound at release," and one is "DE continues to bury their collective head in the sand and ignore the concept of how dedicated servers would solve so many issues."

[Burnthesteak87]

A Veteran of a "not balanced system" declaring Bows should oneshot?
Nah.

Let's say that a garden not cured and left to himself grows in the most messy manner. If left on himself for too much time it can even become a savage place. Animals and creatures setting and living there get used and adapt to that environment, to its disorder.

The old Conclave grew savage with no rules, maybe you have some superior experience in combat, manouvers, movements and aim in such a savage environment, but that doesn't mean your experiences were grown in the right way.

A student with no good master can metabolize wrong concepts.

That's why a large amount of people weren't playing PVP no matter what.

I'd say that Oneshot shouldn't ever be allowed from a single source (guns, bows, attacks, abilities).

Another point which I don't agree is the energy on the map.
It's too much if you have a 1v1, 2v2 situation; in 4v4 that's the right quantity to sustain almost 3 players out of 8.

Stamina recharge must be slow, thus limiting the extraordinary mobility Warframes have.
When coptering will be gone or limited by stamina, the situation will change.

Parkour is very much present on the Void map.
 

Edited March 22, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Auramaru]

A Veteran of a "not balanced system" declaring Bows should oneshot?

Nah.

Let's say that a garden not cured and left to himself grows in the most messy manner. If left on himself for too much time it can even become a savage place. Animals and creatures setting and living there get used and adapt to that environment, to its disorder.

The old Conclave grew savage with no rules, maybe you have some superior experience in combat, manouvers, movements and aim in such a savage environment, but that doesn't mean your experiences were grown in the right way.

A student with no good master can metabolize wrong concepts.

That's why a large amount of people weren't playing PVP no matter what.

I'd say that Oneshot shouldn't ever be allowed from a single source (guns, bows, attacks, abilities).

Another point which I don't agree is the energy on the map.

It's too much if you have a 1v1, 2v2 situation; in 4v4 that's the right quantity to sustain almost 3 players out of 8.

Stamina recharge must be slow, thus limiting the extraordinary mobility Warframes have.

When coptering will be gone or limited by stamina, the situation will change.

Parkour is very much present on the Void map.

Your dramatic language is over the top man >_>

They said in the TennoLive devstream that the maps "are very vertical" and promote the use of parkour, yet I have yet to see any extreme use of parkour.

Parkour being utilized in old conclave:

The current maps do not allow for "parkour". They allow for jumping, direction melee, and the occasional vertical-wall-climb. You can't connect wall-runs to other walls, no slingshot, no nothing.

As for energy on the map: having 6-8 energy locations on a map makes plenty of sense if they are only accessibly to one team. However, the current energy system allows for insane snowballing. In other words, if you get 100 energy, you can not only wipe their team out but also continue to pick up their energy orbs and continuously beat on them.

I'm honestly unsure of how to respond to the poem half of your post...

Edited March 22, 2015 by AuraMau

[Thalahssalyst]

Your dramatic language is over the top man >_>

They said in the TennoLive devstream that the maps "are very vertical" and promote the use of parkour, yet I have yet to see any extreme use of parkour.

Parkour being utilized in old conclave:

The current maps do not allow for "parkour". They allow for jumping, direction melee, and the occasional vertical-wall-climb. You can't connect wall-runs to other walls, no slingshot, no nothing.

As for energy on the map: having 6-8 energy locations on a map makes plenty of sense if they are only accessibly to one team. However, the current energy system allows for insane snowballing. In other words, if you get 100 energy, you can not only wipe their team out but also continue to pick up their energy orbs and continuously beat on them.

I'm honestly unsure of how to respond to the poem half of your post...

U call this parkour? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwx0K7bMP9Y

I see no difference maps now to before. Why? only they made copterings The melee are fine as they are,  are used for which they were made, not for mobility, leaving aside the new movement.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Grimlock-

[Rakshal]

 

U call this parkour? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwx0K7bMP9Y

I see no difference maps now to before. Why? only they made copterings The melee are fine as they are,  are used for which they were made, not for mobility, leaving aside the new movement.

If you see no difference in the maps then you should probably get your eyes checked. :/

[Thalahssalyst]

If you see no difference in the maps then you should probably get your eyes checked. :/

You are talking about the lack of parkour, when before giving that kind of use the "parkour" fly with the melee, leaving that aside, are trying to convert this to how it was before, where they were accustomed to using melee to move and not to kill ( for that were made in the game) and want everyone to do the same.Not before showing the use of parkour and the video perfectly into very present, including those of you rak ...I think that the only change that should have is to lower the armor rhino and chroma , remove the energy  of maps, and remove the coptering , without that say goodbye to imbalance.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Grimlock-

[TheStag]

I completely agree with all of this. I don't know what else to say. c:

[Burnthesteak87]

Your dramatic language is over the top man >_>

They said in the TennoLive devstream that the maps "are very vertical" and promote the use of parkour, yet I have yet to see any extreme use of parkour.

Parkour being utilized in old conclave:

The current maps do not allow for "parkour". They allow for jumping, direction melee, and the occasional vertical-wall-climb. You can't connect wall-runs to other walls, no slingshot, no nothing.

As for energy on the map: having 6-8 energy locations on a map makes plenty of sense if they are only accessibly to one team. However, the current energy system allows for insane snowballing. In other words, if you get 100 energy, you can not only wipe their team out but also continue to pick up their energy orbs and continuously beat on them.

I'm honestly unsure of how to respond to the poem half of your post...

The acual Void Arena requires a lot of basejumping, wallrun to reach hidden passages.

I agree with you, this much energy allows for too much snowballing, but the problem isn't energy, is the Oneshot spamming from skills.

If damage would be toned down, and oneshot removed or limited to #4 with 3-5 mins cooldown, it would allow for a more strategic gameplay.

The only change I would make to energy spawns is to reduce its cooldown basing on the number of targets.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Auramaru]

The acual Void Arena requires a lot of basejumping, wallrun to reach hidden passages.

I agree with you, this much energy allows for too much snowballing, but the problem isn't energy, is the Oneshot spamming from skills.

If damage would be toned down, and oneshot removed or limited to #4 with 3-5 mins cooldown, it would allow for a more strategic gameplay.

The only change I would make to energy spawns is to reduce its cooldown basing on the number of targets.

I actually agree with you completely. If they disable the spam of abilities and/or tone down the ability damage, it'd be pretty fair..

 

Slide kills are still busted though : /