The Manic, Is A Stage Towards Anti Progression

[LazyKnight]

Simply not true. Just a few posts before you I mentioned a way to deal with his tackle. You can't die from that alone if you're doing it right.

I am aware of the spamming healing pads and using other gimmicks to live. What I said was true, you're pointing at a loophole or an exception and saying I am doing it wrong.  

 

Your also wrong saying I am wrong about needing raw health; healing is a health per interval that counters the finisher damage per interval. If anything it's a bug that DE has not patched, considering they disabled everything else that works. Even the sentinel's guardian is likely a bug and should be disabled

 

He is a pain in survival because of the other NPC that keep spamming knock down. If you're knocked down by a lancer or bombard (highly common event) then he'll just use that finisher and it's rng if he targets you, before you can roll.

[Public_Stalker]

I thought the topic name said "The Manic is a Stage Towards Anti Depression".

[KaraBerry]

The only problem I've ever really had with a manic is inconsistent teleportation/invulnerability caused by lag. I've been killed by them several times... when I stood still or was unlucky enough to get hit from behind while focusing on a boss. Again, was standing still. (Sniping's a bit difficult when flying through the air, in my defense.)

 

Also, there's no insta-kill mechanic. They do a set amount of dmg based on their level, as far as I'm aware, and that amount can be taken and survived, given the right frame/buffs. Hell, I lived through a lvl 30 with my Nova once. Painfully, and died because I got shot from behind by a Lancer, but that's not the Manic. =P

 

My advice? Blackout 3. While it lasts. Try different weapons/frames/teams, see what works well. This is a great chance to learn how to fight the little buggers. (Personally, Nova/Frost/Mesa works extremely well. Mesa's in charge of using her gun-buffing skill to one shot the bastards, Nova slows their asses down, and Frost makes a shield, also slowing them down. Makes 'em real easy to deal with. =D )

[WolvenEdge]

The only problem I've ever really had with a manic is inconsistent teleportation/invulnerability caused by lag. I've been killed by them several times... when I stood still or was unlucky enough to get hit from behind while focusing on a boss. Again, was standing still. (Sniping's a bit difficult when flying through the air, in my defense.)

 

Also, there's no insta-kill mechanic. They do a set amount of dmg based on their level, as far as I'm aware, and that amount can be taken and survived, given the right frame/buffs. Hell, I lived through a lvl 30 with my Nova once. Painfully, and died because I got shot from behind by a Lancer, but that's not the Manic. =P

 

My advice? Blackout 3. While it lasts. Try different weapons/frames/teams, see what works well. This is a great chance to learn how to fight the little buggers. (Personally, Nova/Frost/Mesa works extremely well. Mesa's in charge of using her gun-buffing skill to one shot the bastards, Nova slows their asses down, and Frost makes a shield, also slowing them down. Makes 'em real easy to deal with. =D )

 

So... forcing players into team play and forcing players into specific builds/frames/gameplay styles is better than actually fixing a problem. -rubs eyes- We're trying to solve a problem, not make three other ones worse.

[Navalpijo89]

The manic was supposed to be a special minion, in concept looked well and interesting... They implemented it and... Is a total annoyance, and the "turn off the alarms to avoid encounters, u noob" doesn't matter, it seems to have a counter ticking until his appearence, when the alarms sound for the second time it's already laughing, so time to "Brakk him down".

 

Anyway, the manic isn't broken, it's just probably the most cheapest enemy ever programmed, only needs one or two tweaks and then resolved. Just wait until the corrupted Manic appears in void towers along the bombards and nullifiers, ready "to tear us apart , Lisa!".

 

And yes, "forcing players into X" instead of giving them freedom to design their own tactics is "teh best way evah"... yes, it's a sarcasm.

[Taranis49]

And for some reason he will not touch you while reviving your downed allies.

 

Just on this point, but that's definitely not true. Pretty much the only times I did end up downed during the tac alert (standing on lockers FTW :-P) were the times I was reviving a downed team member.

[ThePresident777]

Manic is defended against by basic mobility.  Even the slowest Warframe without any mobility enhancements can defend against Manic.  Defense against Manic is entirely dependent on player skill and action.  Even a beginning player can defend against manic once they observe this.

 

So, should that be changed so that it takes years of game play time, of progression, to be able to defend against Manic via mobility?

[Lightwire]

The Manic, is a stage towards ANTI PROGRESSION.

This unit is a stone cold mechanical copy of the Payday 2 Ghost. It's one of the big reasons i quit PayDay 2. Firstly, this almost completely throws SINGLE PLAYER into the trashcan. People who have bad connections or prefer to play alone are being f###ed the hardest (they dont have AI buddies). And secondly, theyre ANTI PROGRESSION. I would understand this kind of enemy in a game like Left 4 Dead where you dont need to level up and you always have teammates, but not here.

 

Why does it kill progression you ask?

Because of the same reason in PayDay2: What if i create the most Tankiest build i can, with the maximum armor, completely minmaxed to the pinnacle, after spending years of playing a game Leveling Up, Earning that Gear, Earning and ranking all the skills and the mods in this case, to be a slow, heavily armored Tank...only to be one-hit KO'd by a skinny weak enemy....and then you just insert an Instant-Kill mechanic that completely ignores and disregards the whole point of a leveling up system and ranking anything and having any kind of armor or shield.

The Instant-Kill or Permanent-Stunlock-Until-Death enemy DOES NOT BELONG IN A GAME WITH  SUCH STEEP PROGRESSION.

Currently, a level 1 Manic can kill a 6 Forma'd level 30 Valkyr with Redirection, Vitality, Vigor, Steel Fiber, and allll the other tanky mods put together. THIS IS WRONG. Its ANTI PROGRESSION and it's ANTI WARFRAME.

 

THOSE KINDS OF GAME MECHANICS DO NOT BELONG HERE.

You can't expect a powerful build to be completely indestructible. The most strongest armor has its weakest points. Even Valkyr suffers once her energy is dissipated. 

 

Even going up against endless waves of enemies will eventually take it's toll and reduce the most seasoned veteran to needing to bail.

If you get to the point where you're completely tanky and can't be taken down, where's the threat? You can faceroll through legions of enemies but eventually your enemy is going to adapt and go "Hey, see that guy over there? Take him out pls kthx". 

Enter the Manic.

Every enemy has a telegraph. It's up to us to fight them and learn what they are. As ambush predators they'll try to stay out of your line of sight with their teleporting. If they start to bullrush you, and you fire on them they try to disappear and flee. I've recognize once they get close they still have a full second as they're suspended in midair for their pounce. Leaving you enough reaction time to dodge and react.

I apologize if this goes against single player experiences and poor connections. There's nothing to effectively combat the later if you're in a position that prevents it. To completely shun and remove an enemy that, within the lore, has been bred to assassinate and take out key targets just because they instantly gib an optimized tank build won't be well received.

Now if we approach this with another perspective, I can see how instant-kill mechanics can be detrimental to playing a game.

I think an interesting change would instead be if their claw attack would instead force a bleed proc instead of doing a tremendous amount of damage at once. And if they pounce and pin you, they steadily do damage to you until you can either have your teammates deal enough damage to have him teleport off of you, or maybe it forces you into a "mini-game" so to speak. Where you have to try to grab your pistol/melee weapon and try to force them off you.

 

Edited April 14, 2015 by Lightwire

[RonanFrost]

There is no such thing as "anti progression". There is regression, or there is improving the challenge. This thread has made itself mostly invalid. If there's to be anything useful gained, it would probably be best start a new thread without made up words.

[Kontrollo]

I am aware of the spamming healing pads and using other gimmicks to live. What I said was true, you're pointing at a loophole or an exception and saying I am doing it wrong.  

 

Your also wrong saying I am wrong about needing raw health; healing is a health per interval that counters the finisher damage per interval. If anything it's a bug that DE has not patched, considering they disabled everything else that works. Even the sentinel's guardian is likely a bug and should be disabled

 

He is a pain in survival because of the other NPC that keep spamming knock down. If you're knocked down by a lancer or bombard (highly common event) then he'll just use that finisher and it's rng if he targets you, before you can roll.

 

You don't even have to spam them. You have to use one or two, depending on the manic's level. The tackle deals damage over time, so it's easy to use restores at the right moment. Specifically, I was responding to this (emphasis mine):

 

The only way to survive the tackle's finisher damage is raw health + shields and hope your sentinel's guardian is not on CD.

 

And no, it's not a gimmick, gear is there for a reason. I'm pretty sure they're taking it into account when designing enemies. I mean, instead of dealing damage over time he could just kill you in one blow if DE wanted it to be lethal. Besides, if you aren't running around solo, your teammates can get him off you quite easily.

 

You're saying it's likely a bug. I'll believe that once I see them fixing it.

 

 

 

Just on this point, but that's definitely not true. Pretty much the only times I did end up downed during the tac alert (standing on lockers FTW :-P) were the times I was reviving a downed team member.

 

That's funny. I did that several times during the tactical alert and they just stood around me waiting while I was helping my buddy. Maybe it was dumb luck then and they were glitching somehow. x)

Edited April 14, 2015 by Kontrollo

[LazyKnight]

And no, it's not a gimmick, gear is there for a reason. I'm pretty sure they're taking it into account when designing enemies. I mean, instead of dealing damage over time he could just kill you in one blow if DE wanted it to be lethal. Besides, if you aren't running around solo, your teammates can get him off you quite easily.

 

You're saying it's likely a bug. I'll believe that once I see them fixing it.

Cabinets are the manic's bane, it's a bug or was last I tried it. If you want to be untarget-able stand on an object that has no space above you. Manic can not do anything but run around like an idiot. It's an obvious bug, yet DE did not think of that for the initial event. Anyone could have cheesed the endurance by standing on an object and sniping off the manics.

 

Point being; That's an obvious bug that DE should have fixed in the concept phase. If it's a bug or not that guardian works i do not care. The gear still working is on an exploit level as far as I care.

 

Those syndicate helper and other things can knock the idiot off. Why are you bring up co-op, so sick of that argument, if DE wants the game Co-op only delete the -insert censored words- solo option. I am beyond sick of people saying play with a team like the game is never meant for solo.

 

I hate the knock-down finisher in every game I have ever played that does not allow me to cancel it. Just take the blasted life and do NOT make me watch that idiotic (worst animation sequence in game) every single time.

Edited April 14, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Kontrollo]

Point being; That's an obvious bug that DE should have fixed in the concept phase. If it's a bug or not that guardian works i do not care. The gear still working is on an exploit level as far as I care.

 

Why even give us gear if we aren't allowed to use it in sticky situation exactly like this? But the AI being unable to hit you on a crate is certainly something else. The Stalker had the same problem for a while.

 

 

I hate the knock-down finisher in every game I have ever played that does not allow me to cancel it. Just take the blasted life and do NOT make me watch that idiotic (worst animation sequence in game) every single time.

 

You don't like the move, I get that. But that's exactly what he shouldn't be able to do. Oneshots are cheap; but his tackle is avoidable and counterable.

[LazyKnight]

1).Why even give us gear if we aren't allowed to use it in sticky situation exactly like this? 

 

2).You don't like the move, I get that. But that's exactly what he shouldn't be able to do. Oneshots are cheap; but his tackle is avoidable and counterable.

 

1). Throughput healing from pre-placing a pad defeats the purpose of the tackle (tackles duration will not outlast the pad) . DE uses finisher damage to remove player's armor and every other play skill that can mitigate the damage. If DE intends for you to use something to avoid the damage there would be no point in removing Chroma ability to mitigate some of the damage with his armor or his vex skill.

 

It's a consistency problem and DE does not want you to avoid the damage or even mitigate it (point of finisher damage). The only thing they allow is current shields and current health to determine if you're supposed to be killed or not.

 

2).Tackles, they are no less cheap by forcing you to watch an animation before the damage is displayed. A Lanka user could be compared to a Manic's tackle for most Warframes. People can avoid a Lanka user by moving around, manic by back-peddling or using momentum based melee. Both will smash a player that gets knocked down by another NPC.

 

There is not much quantifiable difference for a solo'r between a manic and a Lanka, it only has a group application for tackle to be interrupted by an outside intervention. Pets are dumb; and, the odds of them ignoring the Manic for another NPC is rather high.

 

It's not something that can be countered by the tackled player, it can be mitigated by healing gear. The only way to counter for manic is for eiter a kubrow or some other thing shooting the manic(or biting them).

Edited April 14, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Kontrollo]

1). Throughput healing from pre-placing a pad defeats the purpose of the tackle (tackles duration will not outlast the pad) . DE uses finisher damage to remove player's armor and every other play skill that can mitigate the damage. If DE intends for you to use something to avoid the damage there would be no point in removing Chroma ability to mitigate some of the damage with his armor or his vex skill.

 

It's a consistency problem and DE does not want you to avoid the damage or even mitigate it (point of finisher damage). The only thing they allow is current shields and current health to determine if you're supposed to be killed or not.

 

2).Tackles, they are no less cheap by forcing you to watch an animation before the damage is displayed. A Lanka user could be compared to a Manic's tackle for most Warframes. People can avoid a Lanka user by moving around, manic by back-peddling or using momentum based melee. Both will smash a player that gets knocked down by another NPC.

 

There is not much quantifiable difference for a solo'r between a manic and a Lanka, it only has a group application for tackle to be interrupted by an outside intervention. Pets are dumb; and, the odds of them ignoring the Manic for another NPC is rather high.

 

It's not something that can be countered by the tackled player, it can be mitigated by healing gear. The only way to counter for manic is for eiter a kubrow or some other thing shooting the manic(or biting them).

 

Look, I've found that there's an easy way to avoid getting killed by it, and all you have to do is equip some restores and press a button at the right moment. I'm certainly not advocating pre-placing pads to fight this guy. You got tackled because you didn't evade him or a got knocked down somhow? No problem, you'll survive it because you can still safe yourself with a restore or two.

 

DE probably decided using finisher damage so all the frames stand on (more or less) equal footing against this particular ability. And again, if they didn't want us to be able to mitigate it, it could just be one slash which instantly kills. Or maybe a move like this (wouldn't that be fun to watch?):

 

Healing gear is a counter is what I'm saying.

 

 

Anyway, to me it looks like you just want to complain about this ability for the sake of complaining, so I'm out of here.

[LazyKnight]

Anyway, to me it looks like you just want to complain about this ability for the sake of complaining, so I'm out of here.

No, I gave exact reason. They are the same concept that DE had in closed beta called Nervos.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Nervos

 

They copied the same damn skill and now that it's back point it out is complaining for the sake of complain? 

 

I would have NEVER kept playing this game had DE kept nervos in when they went to open status. DE has rehashed that same dumb concept on a different NPC and it's just as much of a S#&$ move then as it is now.

 

Use gear or play with random idiot number 7 just so you so do not die either to the move or immediately after the event finished. Thanks DE for another credit sink on an anyoing NPC. 

[Feallike]

Not even DARK SOULS punishes players with SUDDEN INSTANT DEATH MECHANICS.  Usually you GET to dodge, usually things are TELEGRAPHED enough.  usually when you die it is your fault and you can learn to PREVENT it reliably. 

 

Or IN Dark souls, guess what... you can BE a heavy tank, and tank through things and the game dosen't go... LAWL i dont care what you wear U DIE against a regular enemy.  He isn't a boss, he is a regular enemy.  It is stretching it to even call him a assassin.

 

One word: Backstabs

 

Doesn't matter how much armor you have, backstabs from 60% of the enemies in the game will instakill you without a certain ring. Enemies can knock you off the world instakilling you, they can stunlock you....

 

Maniacs are stupidly forgiving compared to dark souls. The one change I would give maniacs is to have their jump slowed down so you can outrun it.

 

So a Maniac can't launch himself on you from 20 meters away on you when your running to the side of him. He should easily be able to get you if your running straight at him or away from him but he shouldn't be fast enough to hit you when your running to the side.

 

Though that's only his jump attack, other than that hes fine.

 

Edit: Here's a better idea, have them aim where you are instead of where you will be. They shouldn't have predictive AI on their tackle, they should have AI that launches them where you are ATM.

 

Currently they launch slightly in-front of you so they can get you if your going in one direction heres the problem with that:

 

They lock on to late that its basically a frame before they jump, and its not like they are launching 5 meters in a prediction its more like a meter. That's why we can't outrun them and have to roll or melee. Having them launch where you are makes them easier to dodge because then its only your fault you got caught, since if you keep moving you can dodge them without trying. Unless you are super slow.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Feallike

[THND3RZ]

I love the maniac,i really do i would love to see more enemy like this one (in corpus too).He's not op but he can punish you pretty badly if you make a mistake and i love this.

[JHarlequin]

The event was a good opportunity to get a bit more familiar with the Manic. Here's how to survive the manic's takedown move every single time:

 

Equip health/shield restores and bind them to a key. You can still use them while downed and the first tick is instant. There's no way you can die that way, unless you're too slow or press the wrong button.

 

 

Also, he can't cancel every ability. You're completely safe in Hydroid's puddle for example. And for some reason he will not touch you while reviving your downed allies.

 

 These don't help if you watch him coming, he hops and you drop dead.  Supposedly as a few other posts say, if you keep moving he will miss most of his attacks, and a couple other posts say if you see them coming you can avoid them, but sometimes you just drop dead.

 

Insta-kill ... ... 

I'm guessing that will refer to an action or an hit/ attack which does an insanely amount of damage, and not a series of combo.

So that would mean, the manic (lv1 even or any level) can insta-kill you by it's or his jump attack?

Btw, insta-kill by combo's is alright in my view. And shouldn't that be deadly combo and not insta-kill?

 

Insta-kill in my book is an attack or uninteruptable attack string that either directly kills or causes an effect that will cause death very shortly afterward. In this case; his tackle is an insta-kill... for many, apparently. His stealth attack from behind is an insta-kill... sure, never turn your back on an opponent, that's just good manners, but this is kind of ridiculous. Third; them bleed procs. Didn't even get through the shield, and I had my Volt Prime bleed to death... after he didn't even get touched.

Someone brought this up before, but how can you be bleeding if your shields are still intact? Meh.

 

Combos are multiple, interruptible attacks that chain into each other. The key word here is 'interruptible', each consecutive attack can be countered. The combo that leads to the Manic sitting on your chest and clawing your face off is currently not interruptible, because once he lands the hit that staggers you, you're done. One hit, second hit(unblockable, undodgeable) -> he kills you unless the RNG decides to let you go.

Yes, you can block the first one. Yes, you can dodge the first one, but if that hit lands, more often than not you die, no matter how much armor, shields, or what-have-you. Many on this forum are saying they've gotten up with the squishiest frames after this assault... either they are lying, they haven't encountered it, or this curbstomp ability he has that some of us have experienced is a bug that needs ironed out.

 

 When I made comments here, insta-kill meant automatic death from seemingly one hit while at full health and shields, topping at I think it was 640 shields and 480 health.  Not a combo, not a bleed proc as far as I could see unless the bleed proc hit for more then 480 health and didn't make a blood splatter.  Not knocked down and slapped.  Not approached from behind.  He appears while running in or is already jumping at me and even if I am moving, I died and the frame body just ragdolled if I was alone, or went down if I was in a group.

 

 

The only problem I've ever really had with a manic is inconsistent teleportation/invulnerability caused by lag. I've been killed by them several times... when I stood still or was unlucky enough to get hit from behind while focusing on a boss. Again, was standing still. (Sniping's a bit difficult when flying through the air, in my defense.)

 

Also, there's no insta-kill mechanic. They do a set amount of dmg based on their level, as far as I'm aware, and that amount can be taken and survived, given the right frame/buffs. Hell, I lived through a lvl 30 with my Nova once. Painfully, and died because I got shot from behind by a Lancer, but that's not the Manic. =P

 

My advice? Blackout 3. While it lasts. Try different weapons/frames/teams, see what works well. This is a great chance to learn how to fight the little buggers. (Personally, Nova/Frost/Mesa works extremely well. Mesa's in charge of using her gun-buffing skill to one shot the bastards, Nova slows their asses down, and Frost makes a shield, also slowing them down. Makes 'em real easy to deal with. =D )

 

 Maybe I have been the unlucky one, but several people are complaining about just sometimes dropping dead even though they are watching the manic when he is rushing in.  If one of his attacks does more then 1000 damage, then it's still crap, but it is something we need to know.  If it's a glitch with one of his other attacks, then DE needs to know.  But yes, some of us with decent shields and health still just drop dead when the manic comes in for his attack.  It's an insta-kill as far as we can tell, because it looks like his tackle or his knockdown attack but it doesn't hit, and we don't get knocked down so he can slap us, we just die.

 

 So this is to clear it up, my situation is that I knew which way he was coming at me.  I was blocking with a melee weapon so I could keep facing him.  I was moving to avoid his normal hop.  (most of the time, a couple of times he didn't appear until he was already jumping at me, but I had still figured he was coming from that direction and was facing him).  He doesn't seem to hit or come anywhere close but then I drop.

 

 Why would any frame just drop dead to the manic if they don't get knocked down and the manic isn't coming in for a rear attack?