Loki And Nova Are Too Op. They Must Be Nerfed

[Juebev]

There is literally no reason for Loki to be changed after all this time because of some whiny child. Nerf this, nerf that! - if things went your way we will see Grinner and Corpus in the Recruit channel grinding exp in the relays.

[SIDESTRE4M]

People should suggest a change of the game.

 

If the game itself is more fair in what it does, the difference between some skills won't be as high as now and the problem ceases to exist.

 

But if that doesn't happen, some things have to be levelt.

If two skills stick out too much, it makes more sense toning them down instead of buffing a hundred skills.

Edited March 24, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[ThePresident777]

Funny how abilities stick out too much when they are powerful or popular but not when they are not powerful or not popular.

 

And fairness has nothing to do with this.

 

The Tenno are meant to Destroy Massive Enemy Armies, not be fair:

 

Warframe: Developer Q&A , Answer to Question 4:

The core is the 4 guys against a massive army.  And, generally speaking, they are devastating. The core is not something like in Gears of War where the one on one is something a bit more balanced.  One Space Ninja against a whole ship of Grineer is the idea.  But, that needs to be balanced by boss battles, and by like desperate scenarios.  But, generally speaking, the whole idea of it, even an old ninja (right?) is that the untrained militia get devastated by a single one.

Edited March 25, 2015 by ThePresident777

[SIDESTRE4M]

 

Funny how abilities stick out too much when they are powerful or popular but not when they are not powerful or not popular.

 

And fairness has nothing to do with this.

 

The Tenno are meant to Destroy Massive Enemy Armies, not be fair:

 

 

I'm afraid you miss the point. It's not only about being unfair to grineer, but there are frames who are vastly more unfair to them than others, creating a little group of over the top elite while others are only second or third choices.

 

And if one thing is proven to be true in storytelling via various media: Enemies/Villains need to be strong to measure the greatness of the hero.

 

In other words, weak enemies suck, because they make you feel bullying them instead of facing them as warrior.

 

We are still devastating enough.

Edited March 25, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[BluelitHalo]

Nova isn't OP.

Loki maybe, but that's what happens when energy is so easy to come by, that radial nuking and perma CC takes front and center of gameplay. Did you know that Warframe powers were originally designed around scarce energy resources?

Edited March 25, 2015 by Sonitorum

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

If people would stop rendering the game useless they would actually notice that enemies take cover, await you at certain spots and so on.

 

The unfair part is, that you can't dodge mechanics like hitscan for example. There is literally nothing you can do if high level grineer shot you, because they hit you no matter how fast you are, no matter what you do. That I can agree on. Otherwise I think it's just a cheap excuse for people beeing lazy.

 

But yes, those problems needs to be attended too.

Yup exactly what you said with just one small addition, telepathic enemies, that's the 'cheating' i was refering to, they're telepathic and so should our abilities be.

I'd give up every non line of sight ability if they could adjust that. 

 

Also, when enemies take cover it's one of the parts where the current A.I most shows its flaws, more often than not they'll literally turn their back on you in an attempt to reach a cover tens of meters away, which is when melee auto targeting show its flaws too.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for those 'nerfs', which I'd rather call 'balance', but it will only be balance rather than nerf, only fun and intuitive rather than frustrating, when both sides are properly adjusted, without throwing band aid enemies, band aid mods, band aid skills, etc.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Can't blame those poor grineer though. I'd run too.^^

 

Yeah there is still work to do. If you shoot someone and two rooms ahead someone raises alarm...

 

The list goes on.

[Bobtm]

Nerfs invalidate player's fun.  They invalidate the money spent for that fun.  The fact is that a lot of us have fun with what others in their opinion call invalidating or excessive.   Why should the rest of us have our excesses and other fun nerfed because the lot of nerfers demand it?

Welcome to the world of video games, where the developers of a game in question decide how things go.  To cover the final sentence quoted above, you don't even slightly get what's going on here (or in most games) in the slightest way.  We members of the community aren't the ones deciding, making, or enacting upon any given nerf.  This is all the developers.  What we players do is provide information, both through metrics and our feedback.  So blaming those of us who are okay with nerfs is both laughable, and wholly incorrect.

 

You can blame us all you want, but if you'd have been around here for some of the other ongoing balance changes (nerfs even) you'd know that there have been some which were never called out for by the community at large.  To put it a different way, those of us who do call for nerfs, whether we're on the money or not in each given instance, are a tiny spec of a minority when viewed against the community.  There's no way DE would listen to us in that regard as far as what needs doing.  They know what direction they want the game to go in.  Each side of the fence here will be on the nose when they say things before they are implemented.  Neither side is the one who's caused the change in most any case.

 

As to the matter of fun, this is something you and others in the "let everything be op" crowd need to come to terms with.  Find a developer who doens't give a darn about balance, and go nuts.  DE has shown, time and again, that they do want their game to have a measure of balancing to it.  Currently Warframe is in its beta stage and is going through a myriad of shifts in terms of both player usable power and the power accessible to our enemies.  This means there are going to be numerous odd instances of imbalance on both sides of the spectrum.

 

Nerfs will need to happen.  Buffs will need to happen.  This is an absolute and unquestionable fact that is in play given that DE wants balancing to exist in their game.  For game developers that don't care in the slightest about balance, those statements don't hold weight.  It's all about venue here.

 

Trying to use "fun" to hold up your side of this situation doens't work at all.  It's not even explicitly relevant to the specific issue in question in the reality of things.  Fun can't be used to justify anything within this realm.  Strange I know, given that this is a game, but fun is an individualized thing.  As I'm sure everyone here knows, there's no such thing as a way to please everyone.  This speaks to my point here.

 

 Lets not abuse math here.  Math doesn't call anything OP or not-OP.  OP is not a number.  People decide if something is OP or not, it's not the math that they use that makes the decision.  And, there is no other way to quantify without math.  Math is quantification in all it's simplicity and complexity.

OP things can indeed be quantified by a mathematical value when dealing with those which exist in a realm of hard statistics.  That, is another unarguable fact.  If one given item is literally over twice as powerful as every other weapon or more, then it clearly has to be looked at as a distinct outlier.  This is grade school level math, averages and such.  Not everything needs to be the same, balance isn't about sameyness, it's about having things in a reasonably close relation in terms of usability while retaining distinct features and feel in use.

 

I'm not, in any way, abusing math.  So I'm not sure how you're coming to make such a claim.

 

 What the abilities truly are is irrelevant because we are driven to play games because of our opinions on reality.  So the idea that there is some common ground around absolute reality here is a false idea.  That's not the way opinions work.  Beef is protein rich doesn't mean that all life forms like consuming beef, or that it's good for all life forms to consume beef, or the opposite, any more than X ability destroys Y enemy in Z seconds means that everyone will be entertained by nerfs to X, Y, or Z.  It's a fallicy that reality makes any universal imposition on opinion.

 

You're partially correct, yet also wrong here.  While we all do preform actions based upon our own opinions, these opinions aren't greater than all else.  Games aren't the real world here, they're a world created and controlled to the ideals and goals of the creative director, design director, and the rest of the developement crew who work on that very game.  Their thoughts on the matter instantly override what anyone's opinions are.

 

If I see that a game's developer has no desire to have balancing within their game, I don't waste anyone's time by looking for outliers to nerf.  It's all about validity here.  My opinion is always valid in the real world.  However in regards to a game world, one's opinion is no longer an always valid thing.  This is one of those oddly common misconceptions where players at large believe their opinions are always the most important thing.

 

The importance and validity of an opinion is either upheld or tossed aside based upon the reality within which the opinion exists.  For the reality of Warframe the players who are anti-nerf are, to put it simply, wrong.  Unlike the real world, opinions can be wrong in these situations.

 

To put it to a real world example, it'd be like saying "gravity is a lie in my opinion".  That opinion in the reality within which we exist, being our reality, is rendered incorrect by the laws of our actual world.  Each reality has its own rules and laws with how it operates.  Opinions that fly in the face of those rules of a given reality hold no true merit.

 

Opinions aren't a holy grail like many believe.  They are invalid sometimes, this applies to everyone and everything.  There's places where my viewpoints and opinions hold less merit than pig spittle.  This is simlpy how things work.  People are of course still allowed to hold to those opinions of theirs.  But it doesn't justify specific claims that operate against a reality's laws.

 

 It's scare mongering to bring Excal's butchering into this.  It doesn't justify the OP at all and it doesn't invalidate our opinion of fun.  "Accept some nerf to your fun or DE will totally nerf your fun."  It is just scare mongering, not a discussion at all.

 

I think you've mistaken what I was getting at with this point.  It's not a scare-mongering thing at all, it's a matter of sensibility.  Though I blame this one on my poor wording.  I'll try to better explain it below.

 

DE is good peeps, they take time to look through threads, and sift through all kinds of things and talk with players about various issues.  However, we've seen a few instances of them just ignoring certain issues.  This is because it's daunting to see a literal sea of hatred.  Even moreso it's almost impossible to sift through such a thing and find complaints that come from a place that isn't grounded in personal bias and anger when regarding changes players don't agree with.

 

What I was trying to get at is this;  DE can't sift though mountains of hate-fueled rants, and we shouldn't expect them to.  Furthermore, if everyone just discussed things while pushing their "favorites" aside, discussions can be more productive.  A community being more sensible and open just works so much better with these types of situations.  It's a real rarity to see folks who argue in a civil way on the internet, but that white whale does actually exist.

 

An interesting example of this is Rhino, who's a near constant topic these days in regards to his ability or rather inabilty to "tank".  There are a good handful of people posting on both sides of this issue in a very reasonalbe manner, and it's lead to a lot of really interesting proposals and thoughts.  This is because many of the players in those discussions are able to step back, and look at things from various points of view.

 

Of course, this issue too falls back to the very first part of this post.  All of what we want takes a backseat to the direction Warframe's developers want Rhino to go in.  If our feedback coincides and resonates with their intentions at some level, maybe they'll take some of the suggestions into consideration for Rhino.

 

At the end of the day, DE controls the direction.  We just prod them in the side occasionally and ask if we can stop for ice cream.

[size=1]Not to mention how we ask "Are we there yet?" every two and a half seconds of this long journey that is Warframe's continued development.[/size]

[Hayzemet]

NO better buff all other frames

[zavienh5]

Let's nerf this game to the ground

[Genji]

Nova is OP

Loki is OP

Excalibur is OP

Trinity is OP

 

You know what?

 

Everything is OP.

 

Nerf everything.

 

Right, sick of the whining about nerfs. They are good frames, end of story.

[Karam3lpi]

Nova is OP

Loki is OP

Excalibur is OP

Trinity is OP

 

You know what?

 

Everything is OP.

 

Nerf everything.

I thought thats what they were doing...just in stages...

[Actually-A-Grill]

guys, what if

instead of nerfing specific warframes

they just removed warframes, removed powers, kept the same enemies and we were all just normal syndicate humans with latos and no other weapons.

then no one would feel the need to complain that someone elses lato was too OP and we could all suffer happily.

[Dog-Day]

Just shut the game down so these people can go back to TF2 and complain about minisentries.

[(PSN)VariantX7]

Yup exactly what you said with just one small addition, telepathic enemies, that's the 'cheating' i was refering to, they're telepathic and so should our abilities be.

I'd give up every non line of sight ability if they could adjust that. 

 

Also, when enemies take cover it's one of the parts where the current A.I most shows its flaws, more often than not they'll literally turn their back on you in an attempt to reach a cover tens of meters away, which is when melee auto targeting show its flaws too.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for those 'nerfs', which I'd rather call 'balance', but it will only be balance rather than nerf, only fun and intuitive rather than frustrating, when both sides are properly adjusted, without throwing band aid enemies, band aid mods, band aid skills, etc.

 

Yep. not only are they telepathic, but they have a hive mind too. Invisibility isnt even really invisibility, it just triggers a state where enemies are simply not allowed to attack you. Say you  go into a room bunch of guys spot you and you go invis, naturally, they go to your last known position, if you go to another part of that room with a silent weapon and start killing guys every single enemy in that tile will go right exactly where you are but they wont attack. They simply ALWAYS know where you are whether you're invisible or not.

Edited March 25, 2015 by (PS4)VariantX7

[fatpig84]

Loki only needs an adjustment on IRD (maybe cannot spam recast when IRD is active ?)

Before IRD he was okay.

 

Nova ?

I said it before, keep movement speed and attack speed separate.

So nova will slow down the enemies but they still attack just as fast as normal.

Edited March 25, 2015 by fatpig84

[lpenrike]

when ppl think stuff needs a nerf they havent played past lvl 35

thats gotta be the reason

OP needs to go beyond the starchart and do high level void

[Pizzarugi]

Suddenly, MP and disarm LoS nerfs!

Yeah, no thanks.

[nms.]

when ppl think stuff needs a nerf they havent played past lvl 35

thats gotta be the reason

OP needs to go beyond the starchart and do high level void

"but itss tooo eeeeezzy and im opppppppp, neeeeeeeeeeerf it" -four randoms with four corrosive projections in mimas, saturn

[Acos]

Ignoring the rest of the thread, they need something that limits *all* crowd control, not anything specific. 

Have enemies grow resilience to crowd control as they are afflicted with it. First CC should hit for the full duration, second should be 2/3 the length of time, then 1/3 after which point the enemy become immune to CC for a period of 60 seconds. 

 

Most games with crowd control place limits to address exactly the problem we have in Warframe; it is entirely possible to simply CC enemies forever making high level enemies trivial indefinitely. 

I would also suggest increasing personal "tank" options; Armor, Health, and Shields should be more significant so we aren't immediately one-shot by higher level enemies if we dare face them without our challenge-eliminating crowd control going. 

Edited March 25, 2015 by Acos

[GhostMelody]

OP shut up and stop complaining about so arbitrary matter that YOU decided needed addressing-----lol

For real though, if they are OP then so is banshee, and ember, and frost, and vauban and I could continue to make a bunch of lists as well as why

Can't be over powered if power had nothing to do with the in the first place. Nothing makes them OP, besides the tactics and manners in terms of their ability use, which could make any frame OP, as long as you read into something that really doesn't exist ( this frame is OP because they can be played like so, buy doing so and building so....), kinda like what you are doing.

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

I'm generally against nerfings, and find it very annoying, but if you consider the reply "just buff everything else", it's not exactly that easy. It'd take A LOT more work doing it, for very little gain. 1 frame/weapon perhaps balanced, until someone cries nerf again? I think some people don't fully think through there ideas/suggestions (where it is suggestion. Some people tout that it NEEDS a nerf) , and when you disagree, their ego gets offended. Also, people get attached to their frames, and will fight a fair nerf regardless.

 

What I'd like to see is a(2,3 maybe) higher difficulty level selection added. Where (for the sake of just being easier) the stats scale up, and increase likely hood of rare drops (the benefit of the challenge). Suddenly, strategies like this thread says is OP and boring, are almost necessary. I love it when abilities can be used in unison to create a better affect then alone. Slow and ranged weapons removed? F*** yeah! Nerfs like to Excalibur's RJ, are interesting. I created a post about it, which sadly hasn't got much attention. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/425104-current-excalibur-constructive-ideas-for-rj-and-other-abilities/ . I'd say the main problem with Nova in this, is she is generally only played one way. Perhaps work on that DE, instead of nerfing. Which is silly anyway. To max MP, you need a Reactor, atleast 1 forma, corrupted mods, etc. Not necessarily too high an expectation to have an amazing ability at the end of it.

 

Overall, I'd like to see them introduce more difficult enemies, like the Nullifier, and Maniac; and higher lvl enemies. More synergy between a warframe's abilities, and abilities of others' would be awesome too. More augments for diverse gameplay. I'd say the main problem with Nova in this, is she is generally only played one way. Perhaps work on that DE, instead of nerfing. Which is silly anyway. To max MP, you need a Reactor, atleast 1 forma, corrupted mods, etc. Not necessarily too high an expectation to have an amazing ability at the end of it.

Edited March 25, 2015 by BloodForTheBloodGods

[Jinryusai]

Interesting how these half baked nerf threads get all the attention with parrots repeating the3 same thing as the others but the buff threads barely get any attention and must be bumped.

 

No wonder things get nerfed by request, the idiots can't help but flock the thread constantly bumping it saying the same thing as the dudes above him rather than ignoring it knowing what he said has been said. Then an argument happens and in the end, the guy need not bump his thread, only start an argument and the rest fall in line. The end result, a nerfed warframe, weapon(ex. Gammocore), etc

 

Remember that extra large iron Skin nerf thread? Do ye remember any buff thread for Rhino back then?

 

It would be better to let these nerf threads die then to engage. Let them bump their own threads and bump them buff threads improving them ideas. For example, that huge parkour thread which does not discuss removing or nerfing anything, but improvements.

 

It's no wonder things hardly get buffed, you guys are too busy infesting these nerfs threads and not enough bumping buff threads. Only a few buff threads get bumped. VERY few such as them passionate Frost players.

 

Seems there are more nerfs than buffs, now you know why. You only have yourselves to blame. Fueling the fire.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Jinryusai

[SIDESTRE4M]

Some nerfs were too hard, like the launchers for example. People cried for it as if the guy with Ogris could outkill the Soma guy in EVERY tileset in EVERY situation.

The arguments were based on logic alone, because 500 rockets seemed ridiculous, but didn't hurt anyone. People used it in Derelict Defense to farm. It was fun at first but got tedious very fast. Yet people didn't listen and now we have like 20 ammo.

Old Molecular Prime for example was absolutely ridiculous. Hit the button and instantly the whole tilemap was snared and debuffed and just prone to burst.

It needed a change for the better and is probably still too good compared to what other frames have.

Synoid Gammacor was an occurance that was like "eh, those numbers are real?"

I could solo 45min T4 survival with it ALONE and without ammopacks and a Nova/Banshee for damage buffs. One magazine could shoot like forever and it had even higher ammo pool than standard. It had to be nerfed.

What happens to Excalibur at the moment is just bonkers. Instead of attemding the problem that causes his abusing, they try to change him which can only go wrong.

There are examples for nerfs that were needed in my opinion and not.

Nerf threads generate more discussion because buff threads have easier time getting people to reach a consensus.

Edited March 25, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[.Czern]

Nova is OP

Loki is OP

Excalibur is OP

Trinity is OP

 

You know what?

 

Everything is OP.

 

Nerf everything.

Yes, please!