Loki And Nova Are Too Op. They Must Be Nerfed

[LordRaine]

You want people to work as a team? Git gud so you don't keep getting left behind and holding everyone back.

[Sasquatchias]

You want people to work as a team? Git gud so you don't keep getting left behind and holding everyone back.

 

Its funny that you think statistical differences can be overcome by "gitting gud". 

 

I will never be able to keep up with those Lokis when playing slower frames, even with Rush, simply because my frame is too slow, 

 

And working as a team also requires you to stay with the team, not run ahead of them on your way to extraction and killing everything in-between whilst they try to catch up with their slower-by-design frames.

[RealPandemonium]

I think the playerbase as a whole needs to "git gud" and actually get comfortable with abilities that are well-designed and require thought and discipline to use to their best potential.  Until then we can get used to 4spam, invisibility/invincibility, and auto-winning with the OP equipment that we worked so hard to earn.  God forbid that we actually have to  play a game!  If we keep grinding with OP equipment that trivializes gameplay to get the latest, most OP equipment that trivializes gameplay, then what's the point of having a game?

[Bobtm]

Loki's Radial Disarm is a bit on the silly side in terms of its strengths when you look at it objectively.  Of course, I'm totally opposed to adding duration to this ability, that's a non-viable nerf if I've ever seen one.  There are more interesting ways of decreasing the skill's power however.

 

To note currently, this ability literally neuters enemies.  A disarmed enemy is as good as helpless entirely.  Regardless of their level, disarmed foes are an absolute non-threatening entity that cannot harm players unless those players up and go AFK while standin at ground level.  Dying from the attack of a disarmed foe is an effective impossibility.  Therein lies a major issue with how Radial Disarm compares to other ultimates in the game.

 

The first potential "fix" here would be to just improve how the enemies function upon being disarmed.  Make them freaking berserkers if they're Grineer, and maybe give them some sort of tactical applications if they're Corups.  As for Infested, the only foes hampered by RD there are the newest additions so I'll leave them off the list for now.  Hek, one could even grant them CC resistance in this state or something of the sort.  Beyond that, it would need to be assured that they could climb pretty much everything so a player can't just "lolbox" their way to infinite safety.

 

That however would require a rather heafty load of work.  It's still the idea I prefer here as a player would still be able to survive against the bloodthirsty melee based foes, but they'd have to actually try instead of the current easymode RD creates.

 

The second and less stellar idea would be to slow RD down.  There are two main options here, on an and/or basis really.  One is the skill's cast animation/time, the other is the skill's actual "shockwave".  These are self explanitory, basically on the former you just make RD slower to cast which inhibits its immediate usability.  The latter of the two makes RD operate more or less in a similar manner to Nova's MPrime.  A wall of light that melts enemy weapons, radiating outward slowly, while passing through cover/walls.

 

Then there's a third thought on the matter, imposing casting limitations upon the use of RD.  This is probably the most boring amongst the ideas, but it does make sense.  Effectively it would disallow the recasting of RD till all foes who had been disarmed are killed by it.  Again, pretty self explanitory here.

 

I'm not going to sit here and say that any one of these is the right way to go, or that they need to outright be implemented.  Overall I like a combination of the first two ideas.  Specifically improving AI functionality after disarmed and turning the RD shockwave into a non-instant wall.  But that's just my preference amongst the thoughts noted.

 

Currenly however, it is a simple fact that Loki's RD outright trivializes enemies.

[MrXtreme]

Seriously stop asking DE to nerf stuff. Look at Excalibur. His Radial Javelin is so broken now. You wanna break the entire game instead? 

[Bobtm]

Seriously stop asking DE to nerf stuff. Look at Excalibur. His Radial Javelin is so broken now. You wanna break the entire game instead? 

 

I'm not exactly fond of what happened to Radial Javelin overall.  I like the idea in concept, but from the sounds of things it doesn't seem as though it works in execution to a reliable degree.

 

But regardless of anything else, DE doesn't nerf stuff "because people ask" that's just a strange misconception.  To wit here, the forum is but a tiny fragment of the playerbase as a whole.  To think that DE listens to a smaller fragment within this minority (being those of us who advocate on behalf of nerfs) is just mind-blowing, it makes no kind of sense.  DE changes (nerfs) things because they feel that those things are problematic.  A specific note here lies in how Sheldon described the Void Trader rotation issue in the recent Devstream.

 

They have the ability to see data on what we players are doing, collecting information from the entirety of the playerbase.

 

Of course what is said on the forums is noted and picked through.  But it's not a sole decider by any means.  DE uses all of the information they have to make decisions.  And that's why I'll keep providing opinions regarding the nerfing of overpowered outliers that crop up.

 

Things of that nature will inevitably be looked at.  As far as I see it, the playerbase may as well express the ways in which they'd prefer to see something change instead of allowing themselves to be blind-sided by something they should've seen coming without having put forth their thoughts.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Obviously not. If he put in the effort to farm even one of his bits of top shelf gear legitimately instead of buying it outright, we wouldn't be having this argument to begin with.

I used to not understand why it was that the people who cried for nerfs the most were also the ones who spent the most money just outright buying rare things. Not just in Warframe, but in all games with a cash shop that allows you to skip grindwalls.

Now I get it. It's because they spent actual money on their Sicarus Prime, it's because the used actual money to buy a Soma Prime. It's because they actually bought Chroma instead of building him naturally. They have buyer's remorse. They're angry that the thing they paid real money for is not as good as the common thing other people got for free. So they demand that the common thing be made objectively worse than the thing they paid money for, so they don't have to feel as ripped off.

They don't actually think Loki is overpowered, not really. Not if they are honest with themselves. They're just tired of a Loki blazing past them, hosing down the entire exterm with an Amprex or a BoltorP, and then beating them to extract by ten minutes because the Loki brought a Tipedo to copter with while they brought a Galantine on their Mag.

To that, I can only say this. Git gud.

No, seriously, the Grineer are beating you to the extraction on invasions and Phoid manifestations. What are you doing back there that is taking so long?

I've read several pages of your comments, and I find it funny that I have yet to find a single argument that relates to me out of all the personal accusations you've leveled against those who disagree with you.

Money spent? $0.

Founder? No.

Stuck on Jupiter? No.

Jealous? (you haven't said it outright, but you've insinuated it) No.

Asks for buffs? Yes.

Asks for enemy nerfs? Yes.

Asks for better drop tables? Yes.

You're wrong about those you categorize, which is why you can't understand why we say what we say.

How do you play high levels in this game? I'll tell you how I see everyone do it: either use an ability that makes all enemies in a vast area effectively functionless and turning Tenno into the great warriors for beating the snot out of cripples or people who brought a baton to a space-gunfight, or being invisible/invincible and killing people who never know you're there. None of these are particularly fun or engaging gameplay, but the alternative is death.

I agree with you that it's the mods, not the frames themselves, that are the problem here. But that doesn't excuse the way you've lashed out at everyone, screaming nonsense to discredit people based on absolutely nothing besides things you've made up.

On point, Loki's only problems are the mods, specifically the Corrupted ones. Remove those, and he's a very balanced frame that presents a wide variety of options. Nova, however, has too much in M-Prime and not enough in other abilities. One or two signature aspects of M-Prime should be moved to Null Star so that she has the same tools (she's squishy enough to need them) without killing the value of enemies. I would move the chainkill explosions to enemies affected by it. This would still be moot, however, if Corrupted mods didn't get the balancing they sorely need.

Edited March 28, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[ThePresident777]

The only thing people should have to do is have fun and spend some money (developer's shouldn't be slaves, free labor is slavery).  Anything other than that is tyranny.  The notion that games have to conform to a universal set of rules, such as "balance" or whatever people choose to invent, is a false notion.

Edited March 28, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Bobtm]

The only thing people should have to do is have fun and spend some money (developer's shouldn't be slaves, free labor is slavery).  Anything other than that is tyranny.  The notion that games have to conform to a universal set of rules, such as "balance" or whatever people choose to invent, is a false notion.

 

The first half of your post... well honestly it doesn't exist so I'll just go with the last point.

 

You're dead on correct about this.  Not every game needs balance, however that isn't to say that the opposite extreme suddenly becomes true.  To put it bluntly, DE clearly wants balance to exist in Warframe.  Individual games cannot cater to every crowd out there.  So developers choose a path and roll with it based on what they feel is correct.

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

The Core of Warframe is about 4 Tenno Devastate Massive Enemy Army.  There is no working towards the core.  The core of a game just is, at all times, from begining to end.  There is no working towards the core of a game because the core of the game is what the game is about.

 

If the core of the game is working from peasant killing rats in the basement up to the shining white knight that saves the world, then one starts as the peasant killing rats in the basement and works up from there.

 

But, that is not Warframe.  Warframe is not about working up to being a Space ninja.  It is about being a Space ninjas, 4 of them Devastating Massive Enemy Armies.

Edited March 28, 2015 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[LordRaine]

Its funny that you think statistical differences can be overcome by "gitting gud". 

 

I will never be able to keep up with those Lokis when playing slower frames, even with Rush, simply because my frame is too slow, 

Because you can't figure out how to copter.

 

Which is your fault, because it is incredibly simple. Every frame travels at the same speed when coptering.

 

Which means you can, in fact, overcome it by gitting gud. You just don't want to, in which case you deserve to be mocked when the Grineer beat you to extract. Don't tell me you can't. I can teach pubs how to do it in fifteen seconds flat, and have done so in the past. They thanked me for it.

 

Git gud.

[FrameUnity]

Lol do you guys even realize that OP hasn't replied to all the counter comments you guys have been making to justify that RD and MP aren't OP in high lvl playgrounds?

 

This puts me in suspicioun that OP hasn't really experienced the high lvl contents of Warframe where lvl 50+ mobs can one shot majority of the frames out there...

 

Instead OP should be thankful that there are great utilities to be used to help overcome the otherwise fatal encounters when trying to survive lvl 50+ mobs onslaughts...

 

For the record, no I don't use Loki nor Nova but I do appreciate the skills these 2 frames offer and will not think of nerf as solution to it

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Because you can't figure out how to copter.

 

Which is your fault, because it is incredibly simple. Every frame travels at the same speed when coptering.

 

Which means you can, in fact, overcome it by gitting gud. You just don't want to, in which case you deserve to be mocked when the Grineer beat you to extract. Don't tell me you can't. I can teach pubs how to do it in fifteen seconds flat, and have done so in the past. They thanked me for it.

 

Git gud.

Weapons don't all copter at the same speed, nor do all keep momentum after coptering.

[Edontsu]

I've read several pages of your comments, and I find it funny that I have yet to find a single argument that relates to me out of all the personal accusations you've leveled against those who disagree with you.

Money spent? $0.

Founder? No.

Stuck on Jupiter? No.

Jealous? (you haven't said it outright, but you've insinuated it) No.

Asks for buffs? Yes.

Asks for enemy nerfs? Yes.

Asks for better drop tables? Yes.

You're wrong about those you categorize, which is why you can't understand why we say what we say.

How do you play high levels in this game? I'll tell you how I see everyone do it: either use an ability that makes all enemies in a vast area effectively functionless and turning Tenno into the great warriors for beating the snot out of cripples or people who brought a baton to a space-gunfight, or being invisible/invincible and killing people who never know you're there. None of these are particularly fun or engaging gameplay, but the alternative is death.

I agree with you that it's the mods, not the frames themselves, that are the problem here. But that doesn't excuse the way you've lashed out at everyone, screaming nonsense to discredit people based on absolutely nothing besides things you've made up.

On point, Loki's only problems are the mods, specifically the Corrupted ones. Remove those, and he's a very balanced frame that presents a wide variety of options. Nova, however, has too much in M-Prime and not enough in other abilities. One or two signature aspects of M-Prime should be moved to Null Star so that she has the same tools (she's squishy enough to need them) without killing the value of enemies. I would move the chainkill explosions to enemies affected by it. This would still be moot, however, if Corrupted mods didn't get the balancing they sorely need.

It's funny because some of your points were brought to DE's attention months if not yrs ago, and the issue bringers were ban'd anyone caught using their names as battle crys were also ban'd.

Follow your dreams, right into the sun.

[taiiat]

i'm not a huge fan of Disarm's level of easiness, single purpose, and permanence. i don't know what i would do about it though.

though, with the way Warframe works, Molecular Prime fits into the game fairly well i suppose. yes, it is very, very useful and effective.

but i think it's more of a lot of Abilities only having a single useful purpose, which makes them inflexible and therefore largely not useful.

Molecular Prime is flexible, and can prove itself to always be useful.

i'd rather all Abilities could be in the boat Molecular Prime is. effective enough to identify it's purposes, and flexible enough to always be useful in some ways.

however i wholly realize that 'easymode' Abilities by their nature cause Enemies to cheese the Players harder in order to create 'Difficulty' once again.

this is an issue, but the answer to it is very complicated.

Edit:

-snip-

unless you have a documented Citation for that, you're making it up.

Digital Extremes tries to avoid Banning Players almost at all costs. they don't like doing it if there's any other option.

Players do not get silenced or Banned for providing Constructive Critisism. ever.

they do, for causing Flamewars or other unnecessary 'riots' rather than being Constructive. excessive profanity and a bad attitude overall is a fast lane to trouble.

Edited March 28, 2015 by taiiat

[Edontsu]

Edit:

unless you have a documented Citation for that, you're making it up.

Digital Extremes tries to avoid Banning Players almost at all costs. they don't like doing it if there's any other option.

Players do not get silenced or Banned for providing Constructive Critisism. ever.

they do, for causing Flamewars or other unnecessary 'riots' rather than being Constructive. excessive profanity and a bad attitude overall is a fast lane to trouble.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Protonus/theGreatZamboni%27s_Rework_Project_for_Warframe

this^ though i'm prolly remembering wrong but eh it's only warframe forums not like anything matters here

then there was chorba docs, prolly the only reason rakta got buffed even though synclair held firm that it was "good"

killme

Edited March 28, 2015 by Edontsu

[taiiat]

-snip-

i hope Zamboni's (great) Thread isn't your example, because the Thread was neither hidden for the Threads' Topic(just fell into automatic Archival), nor was the User banned for it.

Users are not Banned for providing Constructive Critisism & Feedback.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Protonus/theGreatZamboni's_Rework_Project_for_Warframe

this^ though i'm prolly remembering wrong but eh it's only warframe forums not like anything matters here

then there was chorba docs, prolly the only reason rakta got buffed even though synclair held firm that it was "good"

killme

I'm pretty sure he was banned because he flipped out after Steve tore his ideas apart on a devstream. Not that Steve was right: the mod system is very flawed as it is right now, but I'm pretty sure Zamboni's ban was fair.

Not only that, but some of his ideas eventually made it into the game even if his overlying one didn't. And last December, a little less than a year after ripping him apart, Steve and Scott ended up agreeing with some of his points about necessary mods, saying they may be changed in the future.

[Catalyst1945]

If they nerf Loki people will riot, including me >:3

[VieuxPappy]

If anything, those warframes should be set as exemples and definitly not nerfed. All warframes should have their abilities scaling with enemies' difficulty because, as of right now, all damage abilities eventually fall off and become near useless unless it brings some form of CC. So no, don't nerf them but buff/fix other frames' abilities so they scale as good. 

[LordRaine]

Weapons don't all copter at the same speed, nor do all keep momentum after coptering.

So you admit you're too stupid to know how to copter.

 

It's tied to attack speed. The higher the attack speed, the better it copters, unless it's a fist or machete weapon, because their animations don't work with it. Pick a high attack speed weapon that is not a fist or machete and then mod it for even more attack speed. Fury, Berserker, that one channeling mod that increases attack speed. Don't put Spoiled Strike on it, for obvious reasons.

 

There. You're welcome. Now you have absolutely no excuse, and can no longer pretend that it is some deep arcane secret oozing Darknet viruses and obfuscating mysticism. There are no less than ten melee weapons in the game that can copter acceptably well, and several of them are also some of the better melee weapons to actually try and use to fight with, not that that means much, since melee is complete trash right now.

 

Even beginners don't have an excuse. You can build an Amphis at Mastery Rank 0, and it is one of the top five.

 

Here, I'll even spoonfeed you, so you absolutely cannot cry about it later and must admit that if you don't do it, it's because you want everyone to wait for you at extraction.

 

Build a Tipedo or a Scoliac. Those are the two best, and the Scoliac is also (pfff) okay at fighting with. If you can't do that because clantech or because combining weapons is hard, then buy an Amphis blueprint off the marketplace and build that instead.

 

Absolutely. No. Excuses.

 

Or you could just run Volt and still help get the Assassinations done faster. Really, even without coptering being part of the equation, how much you do or don't contribute to the mission is entirely on you. Hearing people complain about others "going faster" and getting the mission done before they even reach the objective is always great. You're basically crying that someone better than you decided to carry you through the mission. You should be thanking them. I guess the jealousy is all too real.

 

If you show up as a Mag wearing a Galantine, you'd better be standing still and using Greedy Pull on a Defense or Survival. If you bring something like that into an Phoid match where people are running for Injectors, you have only yourself to blame when you get left behind, and you can't act surprised if you never see Phoid at all and somebody says something snarky from the extract when the three other players and sixteen Grineer marines are all standing around playing cards waiting for you.

 

Even with spoonfed coptering and the knowledge that Volt exists and is a thing, if you still somehow can't manage smash and grab Exterms, Caps, and Assassinations, then I don't even know what to tell you. Go back to Mercury and start polishing, I guess. It isn't even remotely difficult. I managed coptering on my first try when I started, and so has every other pub I've passed it on to. If you can't, maybe you're the one who should go play a different game.

 

Obviously not a racing game, though. Clearly you wouldn't be cut out.

 

Stop opening lockers. Unless you are in the Void they will NEVER have anything good in them, and even then, still no.

 

Stop exploring. There's nothing down there. This isn't a Syndicate mission, and if it was, you would be running it solo or with a person you trust and are connected to on a mic. Or you would be running a Defense or Intercept, which have no tokens to find.

 

Stop stopping to kill enemies on Assassination and Sabotages. There is an infinite number of them. It profits you nothing to kill any of them. Shoot anyone who physically gets in your way. Run past everyone else. Do a Defense, Survival, or Intercept if you want affinity. Now is not the time.

 

Git gud.

 

Users are not Banned for providing Constructive Critisism & Feedback.

No, but it is funny to watch Steve throw a tantrum on livestream over constructive criticism and feedback because he hates the ideas, and then quietly incorporate parts of the idea into the game and hope nobody realized where ability mods came from.

 

And to think some people wonder why some people don't trust the devs to keep the game on track.

Edited March 28, 2015 by LordRaine

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

So you admit you're too stupid to know how to copter.

It's tied to attack speed. The higher the attack speed, the better it copters, unless it's a fist or machete weapon, because their animations don't work with it. Pick a high attack speed weapon that is not a fist or machete and then mod it for even more attack speed. Fury, Berserker, that one channeling mod that increases attack speed. Don't put Spoiled Strike on it, for obvious reasons.

There. You're welcome. Now you have absolutely no excuse, and can no longer pretend that it is some deep arcane secret oozing Darknet viruses and obfuscating mysticism. There are no less than ten melee weapons in the game that can copter acceptably well, and several of them are also some of the better melee weapons to actually try and use to fight with, not that that means much, since melee is complete trash right now.

Even beginners don't have an excuse. You can build an Amphis at Mastery Rank 0, and it is one of the top five.

Here, I'll even spoonfeed you, so you absolutely cannot cry about it later and must admit that if you don't do it, it's because you want everyone to wait for you at extraction.

Build a Tipedo or a Scoliac. Those are the two best, and the Scoliac is also (pfff) okay at fighting with. If you can't do that because clantech or because combining weapons is hard, then buy an Amphis blueprint off the marketplace and build that instead.

Absolutely. No. Excuses.

Or you could just run Volt and still help get the Assassinations done faster. Really, even without coptering being part of the equation, how much you do or don't contribute to the mission is entirely on you. Hearing people complain about others "going faster" and getting the mission done before they even reach the objective is always great. You're basically crying that someone better than you decided to carry you through the mission. You should be thanking them. I guess the jealousy is all too real.

If you show up as a Mag wearing a Galantine, you'd better be standing still and using Greedy Pull on a Defense or Survival. If you bring something like that into an Phoid match where people are running for Injectors, you have only yourself to blame when you get left behind, and you can't act surprised if you never see Phoid at all and somebody says something snarky from the extract when the three other players and sixteen Grineer marines are all standing around playing cards waiting for you.

Even with spoonfed coptering and the knowledge that Volt exists and is a thing, if you still somehow can't manage smash and grab Exterms, Caps, and Assassinations, then I don't even know what to tell you. Go back to Mercury and start polishing, I guess. It isn't even remotely difficult. I managed coptering on my first try when I started, and so has every other pub I've passed it on to. If you can't, maybe you're the one who should go play a different game.

Obviously not a racing game, though. Clearly you wouldn't be cut out.

No, but it is funny to watch Steve throw a tantrum on livestream over constructive criticism and feedback because he hates the ideas, and then quietly incorporate parts of the idea into the game and hope nobody realized where ability mods came from.

And to think some people wonder why some people don't trust the devs to keep the game on track.

You completely proved my point, again. My favorite melee is the Obex. I'm not going to use an Amphis just to move around faster. I'm not going to use Volt just to move around faster. Granted, I like Amphis and Volt, but it doesn't change the fact that, as the person you attacked said, you think statistical advantages can be overcome by "getting good". You just went full circle with your arguments.

Another thing is that the rewards are so tied to the game in your mind that gameplay doesn't even factor in.

Edited March 28, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[RealPandemonium]

If anything, those warframes should be set as exemples and definitly not nerfed. All warframes should have their abilities scaling with enemies' difficulty because, as of right now, all damage abilities eventually fall off and become near useless unless it brings some form of CC. So no, don't nerf them but buff/fix other frames' abilities so they scale as good. 

Being able to turn off enemies at any level isn't "scaling," but "godmode."  As long as their abilities are freely usable they can always trivialize any content, be it level 6 crewmen on Venus or level 80 Napalms in the raid.  The reason damage falls off after a certain point is that enemies aren't supposed to go above level 60 or so (also because Grineer armor scaling is broken.)  It's also not necessary to be able to one-shot enemies with your radial nuke at all levels; even if it removes half of their health you can just recast it or finish them off quickly with one of your weapons.  

 

The importance being placed on warfarme abilities that straight up remove gameplay comes from the false infinite content "endgame" and players' obsession with grinding the Void over actual gameplay.  Being challenged and engaged in gameplay isn't important since we gotta get those ducats or grind the latest prime access gear that has a .00023% chance to drop from a given mission.  

 

How many players just play solar map missions for fun?  Very few, since that would mean having to bring low-level gear to have even a remote challenge.  Funny thing is, it doesn't matter even against the level 80 enemies in the raids since every group just spams abilties that make the Grineer unable to move, and plays duck hunt with their 3897389723 dps Boltor Primes or whatever powercreeped weapon allows them to keep killing Level 80 enemies at the same rate that they were killing the level 7 enemies on Venus with their starter weapons.

[Deviantis]

You know what a raid really is never without? Trinity. Better Nerf trinity too.

[ThePresident777]

The Core of Warframe is godmode:

 

Warframe: Developer Q&A , Answer to Question 4:

The core is the 4 guys against a massive army.  And, generally speaking, they are devastating. The core is not something like in Gears of War where the one on one is something a bit more balanced.  One Space Ninja against a whole ship of Grineer is the idea.  But, that needs to be balanced by boss battles, and by like desperate scenarios.  But, generally speaking, the whole idea of it, even an old ninja (right?) is that the untrained militia get devastated by a single one.

 

Godmode is what made Warframe successful, so successful that a chicken products manufacturer bought DE.

 

Telling DE to put a stop to godmode is telling DE to pull a bait and switch, a shady business practice, and lose profit.

 

Godmode doesn't remove game play.  Godmode is a a form of gameplay, as valid as any other.  Despite that fact that some people do not like it, a lot of other people do like godmode and it sells very well.

Edited March 28, 2015 by ThePresident777