How I Perceive Coptering Shiuld Work...

[Thalahssalyst]

You really are the perennial angry Conclave newbie aren't you. I would say there were over 50 regular/daily Conclavers during 1.0

 

But then; you wouldn't know as you never persevered with it.

 

 

Have a look at RexSol's stats - instead of trolling his videos; You'll see he has over 35000 kills, I can guarantee the majority of those were against "Copter abusers".

 

I myself have over 5000 kills and they were against Copter users; All no doubt equipped with Maglev, Fury and Rush, so a great deal harder than PVP 2.0

 

I went into conclave and got killed over and over - instead of crying a river I just practiced and practiced.

As rexsol and others, just 2 people got views, like the ones i got, the only answer all know to say its "DE say its a feature"

If that was removed people will start complained as happened with Chroma, never was anything intentional, if they leave it its because there are people who likes easy things, I say again no one talks about the problems that is causing.

[Blatantfool]

well when somebody says "im not saying i will" that doesnt not mean "he will not do it", thats what i understand from their words, anyway, im for gating spin attacks by stamina since its the faster thing to do, while i deeply hope that the current speed can be kept under actually skillful mechanics, because the skill required to avoid bullets with coptering is unparalleled by the skill needed to hit the copter, i already gave up on rescuing the current maps design

I wouldn't word it in such a fashion if I wasn't confident I was right. I can totally get if you don't put much worth in me saying that, but really.

It is, as far as I know, seriously more likely that we'll be seeing DE simply attempt to bring it in line and make it behave itself.

S'why I'm pushing for those Stamina changes. We know we're due for Stamina reworking anyway, you know? That is the perfect opportunity to fix up the worst part of Coptering in PvP - which is chain coptering around the whole map.

As rexsol and others, just 2 people got views, like the ones i got, the only answer all know to say its "DE say its a feature"

If that was removed people will start complained as happened with Chroma, never was anything intentional, if they leave it its because there are people who likes easy things, I say again no one talks about the problems that is causing.

People are talking about the problems it causes. You are just ignoring it. There is mountains upon mountains of opinions and feedback about Coptering posted in just this section of the Forums. This coptering stuff might be among the top 3 most discussed topics of all time.

The likeliness it'll be removed is incredibly low, is it not better to discuss how to make it fair then? Certainly better then yelling into the abyss.

[Thalahssalyst]

I wouldn't word it in such a fashion if I wasn't confident I was right. I can totally get if you don't put much worth in me saying that, but really.

It is, as far as I know, seriously more likely that we'll be seeing DE simply attempt to bring it in line and make it behave itself.

S'why I'm pushing for those Stamina changes. We know we're due for Stamina reworking anyway, you know? That is the perfect opportunity to fix up the worst part of Coptering in PvP - which is chain coptering around the whole map.

People are talking about the problems it causes. You are just ignoring it. There is mountains upon mountains of opinions and feedback about Coptering posted in just this section of the Forums. This coptering stuff might be among the top 3 most discussed topics of all time.

The likeliness it'll be removed is incredibly low, is it not better to discuss how to make it fair then? Certainly better then yelling into the abyss.

I see who are talking about the problems caused, the unique responses received are "DE said" i know what they have said.

What they said, does not mean that is no longer a problem.

[Blatantfool]

I see who are talking about the problems caused, the unique responses received are "DE said" i know what they have said.

What they said, does not mean that is no longer a problem.

 

  I'm having some trouble understanding what your point is here. I don't mean that in a disrespectful sense, you've just lost me a bit here.

 

 It'd be hard for us to give workable feedback if we didn't remind ourselves what DE's up to. You're seeing so many people worrying about what DE is saying about the issue because that sets the tone for what we give as feedback. If we are going to suggest fixes we have to know what kind of fixes they want to hear suggested.

 

 Hopefully I'm making sense.

[Thalahssalyst]

  I'm having some trouble understanding what your point is here. I don't mean that in a disrespectful sense, you've just lost me a bit here.

 

 It'd be hard for us to give workable feedback if we didn't remind ourselves what DE's up to. You're seeing so many people worrying about what DE is saying about the issue because that sets the tone for what we give as feedback. If we are going to suggest fixes we have to know what kind of fixes they want to hear suggested.

 

 Hopefully I'm making sense.

Sorry, i relocate my comment, I thought we were at my feedback, check my profile so you know what I mean, in pvp feedback, coptering and current etc etc...

[TaylorsContraction]

Thanks guys for copy pasting every other coptering thread in here.

I proposed a change rather than outright removal, and only one person actually commented on my suggestion. The spin attack animation is quite fast so I don't see it locking anyone in place for days.

I didn't play conclave 1.0 almost at all. Sometimes there were credits up for grabs, I'd go with a vectis and snipe people while hiding. The maps were huge and it was okay, but there were cpu controlled enemies which made no seems to me. Also in every game it would eventually turn into ash spamming blade storm. Lastly it was always laggy (sadly still is). But that has come and gone, I like the new pvp and would want it to be approachable by everyone. People flaunting their stats here, your e-peen appreciates it, but your opinion's value remains equal in value to my own.

[.Talia.]

Regular Players? In the Old conclave? 

Yes, shocking huh? There were regular players in the old Conclave. 

uSouLz, LeoCastillo, DoubleCheese, Lord_Noctus, Brewha, Dante_DeWolfe, Feyangol, FlyingThund3rGod, PhaseShifted, SoullessEgo, Sxun, -10no-Nameless, -Decado-, Rompido, Rakshal, -iFruit-, Nured4ever, ReLight13, -UW-Skretax, Ned_Profit, _LiFT, -Hallow-, alienxz, --Q--Denial_God_Yuuki, LargiorPhares, Ftswag3.0, -AddicTiVe-, Kiri-, Lord_Noctus, TheStag, _Vanguard_, Morganism, klaem, TheyCallMeChurch, Auramau, JonBenj, jesse837, -Yuri_Boyka-, ezioro123, Sxun, -SilentAsasinS-, Mr.RoboRover, 0verDrive, Czarok, Kerbera, Nimbat, Z-Sync, -----.__.G.O.D.__.-----, ArkStereo, BigDarkes, Camarat, deadinflict, EchoSiren, Envoy1028, Feffog, jcody, judal57, Captain_Razor, lor_dash, Keeru, Nipple_McLickington, ICrow, megadeth404, Megodrama, Ghrotem, Fungineer, Ada-Man, Robbanas, bioscire, Ksaer0, captain_b4lls, ...

There are others, these are the ones that comes to mind, that i would see in a regular basis playing Conclave. Go ahead and send a PM to any of these players, and ask them if they think coptering was a problem in the old Conclave, ask them if they think coptering is a problem in the new Conclave.

PS: IF THIS IS CONSIDERED NAME AND SHAME, DELETE PLEASE, THANKS.

 

 

I didn't play conclave 1.0 almost at all. Sometimes there were credits up for grabs, I'd go with a vectis and snipe people while hiding. The maps were huge and it was okay, but there were cpu controlled enemies which made no seems to me. Also in every game it would eventually turn into ash spamming blade storm. Lastly it was always laggy (sadly still is). 

You are talking about Dark Sector Conflicts, that was not Conclave, it was an utterly broken and unbalanced game mode, the only players interested in Conflicts were part of the alliances that hold the nodes, with a few exceptions.

 

 

People flaunting their stats here, your e-peen appreciates it, but your opinion's value remains equal in value to my own.

 

I wasn't the one that mentioned my stats here. And i've stated more so that i think new player's lack of skill that affects their opinions. I did not say that their opinions should be ignored.

Edited March 31, 2015 by RexSol

[JonBenj]

Thanks guys for copy pasting every other coptering thread in here.

I proposed a change rather than outright removal, and only one person actually commented on my suggestion. The spin attack animation is quite fast so I don't see it locking anyone in place for days.

I didn't play conclave 1.0 almost at all. Sometimes there were credits up for grabs, I'd go with a vectis and snipe people while hiding. The maps were huge and it was okay, but there were cpu controlled enemies which made no seems to me. Also in every game it would eventually turn into ash spamming blade storm. Lastly it was always laggy (sadly still is). But that has come and gone, I like the new pvp and would want it to be approachable by everyone. People flaunting their stats here, your e-peen appreciates it, but your opinion's value remains equal in value to my own.

This is Darksectors PVP; Not the Conclaves.

 

Nobody is flaunting their stats, it was for a point of reference, to argue that you can hit people while coptering, and it was done under much more difficult conditions (speed).

 

Coptering/Air melee should remain as it is currently in Conclaves 2.0.

 

I'm even going to go so far as to say that the Stamina bar/mechanic should be removed. I think i could sprint longer than a Warframe before running out of "Stamina" in saying that it, you could assume that i don't agree that Spins or Air melee should be regulated by Stamina.

[JonBenj]

making rules from exceptions is not really sustainable

 

 

If you mean RexSol is an exceptional player - then yes i agree, however he is 1 of many excellent players who have acheived high kill numbers.

 

Anybody who complains about coptering simply just needs to practice and adapt, thats what i did to get better in Conclaves 1.0; if it was as bad as all the PVP newb's say then i never would have got any kills due to Players flying everywhere. Right?

[TaylorsContraction]

If you mean RexSol is an exceptional player - then yes i agree, however he is 1 of many excellent players who have acheived high kill numbers.

 

Anybody who complains about coptering simply just needs to practice and adapt, thats what i did to get better in Conclaves 1.0; if it was as bad as all the PVP newb's say then i never would have got any kills due to Players flying everywhere. Right?

Wrong. Wasn't conclave just duels between people? What reason would people in conclave 1.0 have to run around avoiding confrontation? But there is a reason to do so now, so that comparison is just not very good. People keep saying "gig gud son", but I don't need to be good to copter around the map. I can do it just as well as anyone, there's no skill involved in slide->melee, slide->melee. I do it well, you do it well, we all do it well. It doesn't take long to master, so anyone who doesn't do it well will soon enough.

 

If we had team deathmatch, I wouldn't even care about coptering, I assure you if this were the first conclave 2.0 mode released the forums would not be covered in these threads. But the first mode released was capture the flag, and it so happens once both teams acquire the cephalon it becomes tactically viable to avoid confrontation while you are holding the prize and letting your team work on capturing your own back. I've ran around the map for 5 - 8 minutes before my team managed to get our cephalon back. Now I can go and try and fight someone sure, but um why would I do that? The enemy team ceaphalon holder is doing the exact same thing. It becomes a very drawn out game of cat and mouse in which stamina is never depleted because the moves that grant the furthest travel distance and offer the most speed, use no stamina.

 

Dueling is one thing, but chasing people with the current mechanics? I can vault into the air, turn my camera 180 and copter passed the people chasing me. I have done that dozens of times succesfuly. Really need to look at this objectively guys. We're not talking about dueling someone, fights break out and they're great. We're talking about avoiding the fight which is all too easy with coptering, air melee and fling of fall at a ridiculous speed for no reason.

[rockscl]

If you mean RexSol is an exceptional player - then yes i agree, however he is 1 of many excellent players who have acheived high kill numbers.

 

Anybody who complains about coptering simply just needs to practice and adapt, thats what i did to get better in Conclaves 1.0; if it was as bad as all the PVP newb's say then i never would have got any kills due to Players flying everywhere. Right?

 

when you have to name 2 players from a community of 50, we clearly are talking about exception, and even worst, exception between the exceptions that are the other 48, if anything should be looked with attention about you, is how your tastes are impopular enough to keep you in so small numbers between a community of over 40k, so no, everybody who complains about coptering deserves to have their bad experience fixed by any neccesary mean, be it a proper matchmaking, a noobs queue if you prefer, education, who cares about telling them how to actually copter at least?, are they supposed to guess? or a change in mechanics, and please, bring a higher level of argumentation

Edited March 31, 2015 by rockscl

[Rompido]

when you have to name 2 players from a community of 50, we clearly are talking about exception, and even worst, exception between the exceptions that are the other 48,

Did you not see all the names rexsol posted? And those were just off the top of his head. my name is included on that list and I will tell you right now I too can kill players that move around as fast as they do nowadays. It was much worse in the old conclave and so all managed to adjust and adapt. Those who cannot simply just need more practice. Stop trying to dumb down this game.

[JonBenj]

Wrong. Wasn't conclave just duels between people? What reason would people in conclave 1.0 have to run around avoiding confrontation? But there is a reason to do so now, so that comparison is just not very good. People keep saying "gig gud son", but I don't need to be good to copter around the map. I can do it just as well as anyone, there's no skill involved in slide->melee, slide->melee. I do it well, you do it well, we all do it well. It doesn't take long to master, so anyone who doesn't do it well will soon enough.

 

If we had team deathmatch, I wouldn't even care about coptering, I assure you if this were the first conclave 2.0 mode released the forums would not be covered in these threads. But the first mode released was capture the flag, and it so happens once both teams acquire the cephalon it becomes tactically viable to avoid confrontation while you are holding the prize and letting your team work on capturing your own back. I've ran around the map for 5 - 8 minutes before my team managed to get our cephalon back. Now I can go and try and fight someone sure, but um why would I do that? The enemy team ceaphalon holder is doing the exact same thing. It becomes a very drawn out game of cat and mouse in which stamina is never depleted because the moves that grant the furthest travel distance and offer the most speed, use no stamina.

 

Dueling is one thing, but chasing people with the current mechanics? I can vault into the air, turn my camera 180 and copter passed the people chasing me. I have done that dozens of times succesfuly. Really need to look at this objectively guys. We're not talking about dueling someone, fights break out and they're great. We're talking about avoiding the fight which is all too easy with coptering, air melee and fling of fall at a ridiculous speed for no reason.

 

I see your point, I suppose im looking at it in the sense, that i go in for kills, which has the effect of helping the team.

 

If you go in there with the intention of ceasing the Cephalon and running back and forth without confrontation then yes, there is an Imbalance. But whatever changes happen in this PVP gamemode; I can only assume (at this stage) that it will affect other modes aswell such as Deathmatch.

 

So are we saying that the slide attacks should be modified if you carry the Cephalon or generally speaking?

Edited March 31, 2015 by JonBenj

[JonBenj]

when you have to name 2 players from a community of 50, we clearly are talking about exception, and even worst, exception between the exceptions that are the other 48, if anything should be looked with attention about you, is how your tastes are impopular enough to keep you in so small numbers between a community of over 40k, so no, everybody who complains about coptering deserves to have their bad experience fixed by any neccesary mean, be it a proper matchmaking, a noobs queue if you prefer, education, who cares about telling them how to actually copter at least?, are they supposed to guess? or a change in mechanics, and please, bring a higher level of argumentation

 

50 is an estimate, I could go through my friends list and that will be near 50 players; Which i enjoyed playing and offer a challenge and so friend requested. Not the rest of the Conclave community of all regions. That number would be much higher.

 

I don't want to go from playing a PVE mission and jump into a PVP $&*&*#(%& mobility version, simply because player new to the experience want it simplyfied to make it accessible to them.

 

Matchmaking would be a good idea or a Lobby for new players as you have pointed out.

 

Please refrain from patronizing comments :)

[Alex]

when you have to name 2 players from a community of 50, we clearly are talking about exception, and even worst, exception between the exceptions that are the other 48, if anything should be looked with attention about you, is how your tastes are impopular enough to keep you in so small numbers between a community of over 40k, so no, everybody who complains about coptering deserves to have their bad experience fixed by any neccesary mean, be it a proper matchmaking, a noobs queue if you prefer, education, who cares about telling them how to actually copter at least?, are they supposed to guess? or a change in mechanics, and please, bring a higher level of argumentation

 

Brewha here to take out the trash yet again.

I love reading another coptering thread and seeing the moderators put up with Grimlock- and rockscl's personal attacks.

 

Neither of you were ever active PVP 1.0 players and for you to pretend to be is nothing more than a lie.

 

Nerf coptering for the flag carrier? Sure.

 

Nerf coptering in general? No, that's idiotic.

 

Coptering is a skilled movement mechanic perfected after hours of conclave trial and error.

 

You gentlemen are suffering from the "WARFRAME Dilemma". PVE has lead you believe that you are immortal gods of WARFRAME. The second you encounter a game-mode that requires real skill *POOF* your false sense of self-worth shatters. But it can't be you? No, NO WAY! You are good at the game remember? It must be the game-mode! So you scream, cry, and rudely post on the forums "This game-mode is BROKEN! UNBALANCED! and TERRIBLE!".

 

The harsh reality is that you are bad.

 

You need to put in the time and effort to be good at conclave. You are not entitled to be good, this is a competitive form of end-game.

 

Nerfing a game mechanic that you have yet to master before you have put in the proper time is never the answer.

 

If either of you spent half the time actually playing conclave rather than crying and being rude others on the forum, I'm confident you wouldn't consider this a problem.

 

 

Brew Ha Ha Ha over and out.

[elele]

I don't want to go from playing a PVE mission and jump into a PVP $&*&*#(%& mobility version, simply because player new to the experience want it simplyfied to make it accessible to them.

 

 

I'm sure you and your 50 other friends have paid enough money to cover the salaries of the three DE employees working on PVP. 

 

That being said, copter needs to stay. Elitism from so-called "Conclavers"? It's a whole different matter.

Edited March 31, 2015 by elele

[JonBenj]

I'm sure you and your 50 other friends have paid enough money to cover the salaries of the three DE employees working on PVP. 

 

That being said, copter needs to stay. Elitism from so-called "Conclavers"? It's a whole different matter.

 

It's an opinion based on my time playing Conclave 1.0 not Elitism. I don't think my time playing said gamemode qualifies my opinion to be heard over others either. i just don't want sweeping changes made to mobility, it already feels slow.

[Rompido]

It's an opinion based on my time playing Conclave 1.0 not Elitism. I don't think my time playing said gamemode qualifies my opinion to be heard over others either. i just don't want sweeping changes made to mobility, it already feels slow.

 

it does feel slow. a lot slower than what I'm used to

[Arbiter_Viridium]

(table flip)

Raig table.

 

New Conclave is an objective-based mode that's tons less forgiving for the defense role thanks to how easy it is to rush bases, and old Conclave was just deathmatch-focused with nothing to protect but yourself.

I'm failing to see how it's fair to compare the effects of coptering between the two modes.

Especially if the maps are about as CQC as a flea.

 

Why would a sprinting slide attack not provide any forward momentum? 

 

(I don't like the way coptering works now, please don't think I'm defending it, I'm just not a fan of the notion that the slide attack's very existence is a flaw and needs to be removed)

Obviously, it's not gonna be removed. We can just hope it at least gets maybe a stamina penalty at least.

 

It'll be adjusted but I go into my second PvP match to see how the changes were and a Frost who coptered around managed to cap our Cephalon within 5 seconds every time it appeared. The rest of his team were defending and my team rage quitted. I tried, but then followed. He turned a CTF into a 45-second TDM.

 

It's infuriating and just makes the entire match un-fun. It needs to be removed as a mechanic for PvP in the mean time while Parkour 2.0 comes out.

Similar thing happened to me today. There's me, a Frost Prime just starting to adjust to 2.0, then you have on your team maybe two Excals who are an acceptable rank and another random Frame. Then there's the enemy team: two max rank Volts, an almost max Mag, and another random Frame. Thanks to the Volts using speed, they're able to copter around the flea-sized map with ease and decimate with Overload at the spawnpoints tirelessly. Oh the balance! I definitely agree coptering does not help make the PVP fun, but I belive that it should beat least nerfed.

[BluelitHalo]

I think what supporters of the current layout of PvP fail to understand is that if the ideal experience of Cephalon Capture only starts in matches of high skill level players, then very few people will ever bother to play in the first place.  The mindset of "git gud" that I'm seeing in this thread is the exact mindset that killed a bunch of my favorite arena FPS and emerging indie games.  Killed as in the playerbases just died out and developer support dwindled.

It's nothing short of pathetic that the blame has to be shifted to allegedly low player skill despite the obvious poor design of the current Cephalon Capture.  If evidently very few public matches are streamlined with a good balance between offense and defense, then what does that say about the game?  I consider my shooter skills pretty well chiseled, yet I have to work off my behind when defending and chasing, while rushing the Cephalon just feels like a walk in the park a majority of the time.  Other great CTF-based games have the opposite experience.

 

I acknowledge that the coptering technique isn't going to go away, which is why there needs to be more/better base defense options available to us, or the stamina system should be tweaked against coptering.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Sonitorum

[elele]

I think what supporters of the current layout of PvP fail to understand is that if the ideal experience of Cephalon Capture only starts in matches of high skill level players, then very few people will ever bother to play in the first place.  The mindset of "git gud" that I'm seeing in this thread is the exact mindset that killed a bunch of my favorite arena FPS and emerging indie games.  Killed as in the playerbases just died out and developer support dwindled.

 

This. Any great PVP game should be "easy-to-grasp, hard-to-master". Take Quake for  example. Any scrub can fire a rocket and get some kills from splash damage. But rocket jump and rail guns take more practice to master. 

[Rompido]

 

 

I acknowledge that the coptering technique isn't going to go away, which is why there needs to be more/better base defense options available to us, or the stamina system should be tweaked against coptering.

 

I'm telling you best way to defeat that. is for someone else rush in quickly and pick up their Cephalon. once both teams have each others Cephalon it no longer is about rushing to score. its about staying alive ( if you have the Cephalon ) and / or killing the player that has the Cephalon.

 

then you will find the wonderful "strategic" game play you look for.

 

For example sometimes when I pick up the Cephalon. If I see there are a lot off good players ( by good I mean have great aim / reaction time / movement skills ) then I will run around like crazy doing my best to be a very hard target by bouncing off walls with parkour, dodging in and out of tunnels / hall ways. all the while trying to stay somewhat close to our base so i can score when our Cephalon is returned.

 

THAT is a fun match IMO.

 

but if the other team doesn't know how to rush and grab the Cehalon before I make it back, then thats just too bad for them. I'm not going to make it easy for them and only walk back.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Rompido

[TaylorsContraction]

I see your point, I suppose im looking at it in the sense, that i go in for kills, which has the effect of helping the team.

 

If you go in there with the intention of ceasing the Cephalon and running back and forth without confrontation then yes, there is an Imbalance. But whatever changes happen in this PVP gamemode; I can only assume (at this stage) that it will affect other modes aswell such as Deathmatch.

 

So are we saying that the slide attacks should be modified if you carry the Cephalon or generally speaking?

Well the dev's have mentioned that they tried nerfing the carrier's mobility and decided against it. That would be the go to way to resolve this issue if people want coptering unchanged.

 

I'm sorry to see 90% of posts being totally off topic but when people don't read that's just to be expected.

 

An alternative that should be okay is if you held the cephalon for  1 minute and have not returned it to base (so are just running around with it), it zapps you (causing you to drop it and take minor damage). Then the cephalon returns itself. It should be 1 minute + (random variable timer of 10-30 seconds).

[BluelitHalo]

I'm telling you best way to defeat that. is for someone else rush in quickly and pick up their Cephalon. once both teams have each others Cephalon it no longer is about rushing to score. its about staying alive ( if you have the Cephalon ) and / or killing the player that has the Cephalon.

then you will find the wonderful "strategic" game play you look for.

For example sometimes when I pick up the Cephalon. If I see there are a lot off good players ( by good I mean have great aim / reaction time / movement skills ) then I will run around like crazy doing my best to be a very hard target by bouncing off walls with parkour, dodging in and out of tunnels / hall ways. all the while trying to stay somewhat close to our base so i can score when our Cephalon is returned.

THAT is a fun match IMO.

but if the other team doesn't know how to rush and grab the Cehalon before I make it back, then thats just too bad for them. I'm not going to make it easy for them and only walk back.

But that's just a glorified hide and seek, which no good CTF game has that sort of thing happen often because base defense is actually viable.

[TaylorsContraction]

I will like to add that whenever the cephalon bugs out and disappears, forcing us to a 10 minute deathmatch I have way more fun than running around hiding from enemy players. I feel that once death match is available, if things remain unchanged capture the cephalon will drop in popularity. Its purpose will mainly be to grind out end mission rewards (assuming they're worth it to someone).

 

Deathmatch is way more fun (for me personally) because everyone wants to fight and engage, plus going a full 10 minutes nets us more standing than a 1 minute 30 second capture the cephalon stomp.