Morec0 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 If you've seen my constant posts on the forums in regards to the second-mentioned title character, you know what I'm talking about. If not, I'll explain. First, let's look at the name "Guardians", pulled from the Stalker's Codex. "But Morec! It's says 'Low Guardians'!" Kinda, dear reader. Look again. Notice how the "low" is lowercase while "Guardians" is uppercase, to me this signifies a separation of a descriptor from a title. I think what he's actually saying is "... with the rest of lesser-than-you Guardians". Thus we have our title. So, where to go from there? Well, let's start with looking at how Teshin refers to the Conclave: "We were led astray. We forgot the Conclave, so when that new evil came, we were not prepared. This is how we failed the Orokin." Aside from ruling him out as being a Tenno - because we didn't fail when "that new evil", the Sentients, came, we were the guys who beat them - this clues us into something. Whatever this "Conclave" was at the time and for whatever reason it was forgotten, it is the reason (at least for Teshin) that the Orokin were defeated at the hands of the Sentients. But we also know exactly why they were defeated: " They had turned our weapons, our technology, against us. The more advanced we became, the greater our losses." (Excalibur Codex) So there is some connection between the forgetting of the Conclave and this advancement of technology. I suggest that as the Empire's technology grew, as it expanded and the likes of the Technology that we see in the hands of the Corpus took over and became more prevalent, the simpler ways, the "Old Ways" (Excalibur Codex) their weapons of "gun and blade" (Excalibur Codex) became less and less relevant, and because of this humanity was "led astray" and the order to which they belonged, the Gaurdians, weakened and withered until there weren't enough of them to protect the Empire. Then the Orokin developed the Tenno, created them from the Void and Technocyte (the specifics of my beliefs on which I'll ignore for the purposes of this post). But that was only part of the answer. They had whatever the Void gave to them, they had the Warframes. But they needed more. So, they turned to the Guardians, asked them to train them, to teach them the "old ways" (as they would have been known by this point, what with technology leaving their order in the dust). Seems like a bit of a jump, doesn't it? All of a sudden I'm claiming this order trained the Tenno? Where's the proof of that? Well, aside from it simply making logical sense, take a look at Stalker's Codex again: "With each beat terror began to crush my throat. The Tenno were not stoic and silent. They were waiting. They were poised." The Tenno had only just arrived, but as they stood in the celebration of their victory he is able to tell very, very quickly that they aren't just standing still, they're waiting for the opportune moment to strike. Preparing to attack. Who else would know better when someone is preparing to act than those that taught them such tactics in the first place? Better yet, if the ways of the Conclave had been so forgotten by time no one else, especially not the "cold and gold Emperors" of the Orokin would have been able to tell the difference between a stoic pose and a silence preparation to attack taught by such ways. Whatever happened to Stalker after that is unclear, but I like to imagine he threw himself to the Void and/or the Infestation, deciding either he'd gain the powers we had and with them a chance to avenge his fallen Emperors, or die trying. Why didn't the other Guardians act when the Stalker tried to? Perhaps they were not as close to the Tenno and their training as Stalker had once been, perhaps the decision to slaughter the Orokin was on a grander scale, one to which Stalker had not been/decided he didn't want to be a part of, only time will tell. But anyway: Stalker, Teshin, both Guardians, followers of the way of the Conclave. But I also listed the Lotus, why? Well, this one is a bit more of a stretch, but I look again to Teshin, and how he talks about her: "The Lotus seduced the Tenno. Led them on a complacent path like oxen." He seems familiar with the Lotus, but more notably the way he talks about the Lotus supposedly "tricking" us to follow her suggests there was some kind of deeper connection between us. What better way for such a connection to be forged than through that of master-to-student. Lotus has already been talked about having some connection to the Orokin, something potentially backed up by the golden aesthetics in her model and the "hidden eyes, revealed mouth" headdress shared with Teshin (this is also shared with the New Loka leader, a group who openly uses Orokin aesthetics inside their room). Sadly, this is ultimately all we have to go on at this juncture, but I put forth that Lotus was also a member of this order of Guardians, close to the Tenno, a teacher and guide for them even then (the latter of which seen in Hidden Messages) who ultimately chose the Tenno over the Empire she had been loyal to and organized their fall at the hands of the Tenno. Embittering Stalker to the Tenno; embittering Teshin to her. There is much to be seen, but I will be looking at it to see how this theory holds up in light of these ideas. So... thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
011100110110000101101101 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I have been thinking of Tenshin and his lore a lot lately, and I'm going to say that I came to a very similar conclusion about him and the Stalker. I hadn't thought much of the Lotus being a Guardian though, although it is very possible with this theory. We haven't seen anything relating combat to her in the game, or the lore at all, which is why I had not thought to put her into the whole thing. Perhaps when she shows up in the relay, she'll be wearing some sort of weapon? Either way, I agree with you on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messor36 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) keep digging! good suggestions! BTW, i beleive the trick is... we havent acctually beaten the Sentients... - thats the biggest lie. Listen to Ordis - he says something like "i remember there were lies about an Old war but not shure about what" We'v been tricked - the Vor also says - "they been led by a false prophet" ( Lotus?) Edited March 31, 2015 by Messor36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayzenfloss Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 your the one on the other post LOL! but its a possibility that an Order made by the Orokin which is the Low Guardians were a possible Group which the Stalker,Lotus,Tenshin were part of. and theres also a possibility that they were first organized before the Orokin Made the Primes. but is it just me or the Lotus never mentioned the stalker since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galatea Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Interesting, indeed...it does fit in well enough of a pattern to make this all seem plausible enough to follow, for sure. It will be intriguing to see what actually gets revealed when he / the story broadens a bit more, as well as seeing what will be backed by DE's claim to 'reveal' more of the truth of what Tenno are this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morec0 Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 your the one on the other post LOL! but its a possibility that an Order made by the Orokin which is the Low Guardians were a possible Group which the Stalker,Lotus,Tenshin were part of. and theres also a possibility that they were first organized before the Orokin Made the Primes. but is it just me or the Lotus never mentioned the stalker since then. Low Guardians don't exist, it's just Guardians - as per the noted punctuation stipulation. Aye, Stalker's whole existence is something of a mystery. I'm hoping that, one day, there will be a quest for him - an Blueprint that drops from him upon defeating him, allowing us to track him down to a rundown dojo or something, learning a story along the way, until we face him there and get the conclusion - not killing him, never killing him, just driving him off and learning who and why he is. There IS one tidbit I forgot to mention, though mostly I left out of the post because it IS nothing but rampant speculation, but I say the Guardians are an order that were either founded by or built on the inspiration of Hayden Tenno from Dark Sector. The first in the Warframe universe to use both blade and gun. keep digging! good suggestions! BTW, i beleive the trick is... we havent acctually beaten the Sentients... - thats the biggest lie. Listen to Ordis - he says something like "i remember there were lies about an Old war but not shure about what" We'v been tricked - the Vor also says - "they been led by a false prophet" ( Lotus?) Indeed, Ordis' healing and getting his memories back. Whatever that means is yet to be revealed. As for the "false prophet" line, it's important to note that he immediately stipulates it with "an impostor who knows not the secrets of the Void", suggesting that, fitting with the statement in Excalibur's Codex of "... we turned to the Void. The blinding night, the hellspace where our science and reason failed." she is more separate from the Void than we Tenno (and now Vor) are, lending a little credibility to her being not a Tenno but a Guardian, perhaps? Interesting, indeed...it does fit in well enough of a pattern to make this all seem plausible enough to follow, for sure. It will be intriguing to see what actually gets revealed when he / the story broadens a bit more, as well as seeing what will be backed by DE's claim to 'reveal' more of the truth of what Tenno are this year. I just want another damn Prime Codex entry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayzenfloss Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Interesting, indeed...it does fit in well enough of a pattern to make this all seem plausible enough to follow, for sure. It will be intriguing to see what actually gets revealed when he / the story broadens a bit more, as well as seeing what will be backed by DE's claim to 'reveal' more of the truth of what Tenno are this year. when I tried to read and listen carefully on the npcs and the lotus, it turn out they are all connected well, I just hope DE makes some cinematics which explains mostly everything. come on. even a random cinematic trailer of the warframe which shows the story or put tge lotus as the main character makes this game like close to HALO but its online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krion112 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I was waiting for this thread to come around since I saw your original posts on the idea. I wonder if the mention of the Lotus in Dark Sector is going to be the connecting thread, that there was some secret order of guardians that eventually went on to assist the Orokin and used the long outdated tech to carry out their will, and then going on to train and guide the Tenno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morec0 Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 I was waiting for this thread to come around since I saw your original posts on the idea. I wonder if the mention of the Lotus in Dark Sector is going to be the connecting thread, that there was some secret order of guardians that eventually went on to assist the Orokin and used the long outdated tech to carry out their will, and then going on to train and guide the Tenno. Ehhh, as was said in a Devstream "they're separated by years and year", and given how the Lotus symbol in that was just a mark of the black market I personally doubt it. It MAY come back, but I think they just reused the symbol due to its prevalence and the fact it IS a pretty damn good looking symbol... Then again, there IS a bit of reference to it in some of Mezner's lines... It's possible, but I don't think the Guardians became a thing until AFTER Hayden went on to do whatever he did after Dark Sector (as the ending narration says "that was how it began"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deshiel Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 The lotus uses oculus rift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerberus888 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Interesting. It would seem they are the Guardians of the the Galaxy..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morec0 Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 Interesting. It would seem they are the Guardians of the the Galaxy..... Hence why the Chinese think we are going to team up with the Avengers. Though, really, it's more like "Guardians of the System". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Grihaly Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Why didn't the other Guardians act when the Stalker tried to? "The Lotus seduced the Tenno." Maybe we killed them too? .............. Giggity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lankander Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 YOU THINK YOU ARE GUARDIANS?! GRINEER RULE SUPREME, GRINEER PROTECT ALL. -General Sargas Ruk. Kinda ironic isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwapplephobia Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'd like to provide some expansion on the loss of the Conclave- at that pont, warfare could have evolved far past what we see, with unknown methods of destruction not requiring soldiers in the traditional sense. With this kind of warfare, it would have been impossible to have anything resembling the Conclave- and so it was forgotten, and we were ill-prepared when the time came to face the Sentients, instead using swarms of troops similar to the techniques employed by the Neural Sentries. Under this versions of things, Corpus technologies are hardly worthy of comparison to the peak of Orokin accomplishments- explaining why they aren't any better than ballistic weaponry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morec0 Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 Maybe we killed them too? .............. Giggity. Well, that explains perfectly why they aren't around (though sheds a little confusion onto why the likes of Stalker and Teshin are still alive) doesn't explain why they didn't act in-the-moment, though. Perhaps they knew that they simply couldn't do anything against the Tenno and so silently resigned themselves to what was about to happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakrana Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Low Guardians don't exist, it's just Guardians - as per the noted punctuation stipulation. Aye, Stalker's whole existence is something of a mystery. I'm hoping that, one day, there will be a quest for him - an Blueprint that drops from him upon defeating him, allowing us to track him down to a rundown dojo or something, learning a story along the way, until we face him there and get the conclusion - not killing him, never killing him, just driving him off and learning who and why he is. There IS one tidbit I forgot to mention, though mostly I left out of the post because it IS nothing but rampant speculation, but I say the Guardians are an order that were either founded by or built on the inspiration of Hayden Tenno from Dark Sector. The first in the Warframe universe to use both blade and gun. Indeed, Ordis' healing and getting his memories back. Whatever that means is yet to be revealed. As for the "false prophet" line, it's important to note that he immediately stipulates it with "an impostor who knows not the secrets of the Void", suggesting that, fitting with the statement in Excalibur's Codex of "... we turned to the Void. The blinding night, the hellspace where our science and reason failed." she is more separate from the Void than we Tenno (and now Vor) are, lending a little credibility to her being not a Tenno but a Guardian, perhaps? I just want another damn Prime Codex entry... You know, that 'the story of the stalker' bit is admittedly what inspired my 'Shadow in White' fic, somewhat. The Void ambient music helped with the creepy factoring. Since Teshin rolled on in, it's been a 'right...ok...PoVs and such'. Now I've done the Chroma quest which has some...interesting implications...ideas. As it is, good theorising, and certainly seems to fit with what we have to work with. Vor is...it'd be a disturbing prospect if Vor had the 'fortune' of having the right qualities for the Neural Sentry to make itself a new era 'Guardian' The next Prime codex entry shall be...hopefully interesting, but if I've gleaned anything from how Steve likes to do his lore drops, it's going to be very subtle and open to interpretation. I can wait. Should be good. YOU THINK YOU ARE GUARDIANS?! GRINEER RULE SUPREME, GRINEER PROTECT ALL. -General Sargas Ruk. Kinda ironic isn't it? A little. Though I admit of all the Grineer, I'm a little sorry we can't come to an honourable understanding with Ruk. Say what one will...he's a warrior who lives by his own code of honour and that's rather impressive for a degenerate clone, albeit one wreathed in more bionic technology than others. Although I may just be something of a blood knight sympathiser. Mutual understanding, you know? Note the guy calls out Vay Hek for using the Grustrag Three, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboDoge Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Scan more, talk less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painovoimaton Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 The hidden eyes shown mouth thing is kinda weird though. In the relays all men hide their faces completely but females have their mouth showing. Yet Teshin shows his mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damuranashi Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Who's Oxen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painovoimaton Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Who's Oxen? Google it. "Led us like oxen" refers to us getting lead around like what you will see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deshiel Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) Google it. "Led us like oxen" refers to us getting lead around like what you will see. "Vedla nás jako kráva" xDDDD (this is the czech translation of Led us like oxen") Thanks man this made my day. Edited March 31, 2015 by Deshiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morec0 Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 The hidden eyes shown mouth thing is kinda weird though. In the relays all men hide their faces completely but females have their mouth showing. Yet Teshin shows his mouth. Well, not all of each. I believe I've seen males with their mouths exposed and females with their mouths hidden Who's Oxen? Apparently Teshin says we are - metaphorically speaking. Basically: Google it. "Led us like oxen" refers to us getting lead around like what you will see. This. You know, that 'the story of the stalker' bit is admittedly what inspired my 'Shadow in White' fic, somewhat. The Void ambient music helped with the creepy factoring. Since Teshin rolled on in, it's been a 'right...ok...PoVs and such'. Now I've done the Chroma quest which has some...interesting implications...ideas. As it is, good theorising, and certainly seems to fit with what we have to work with. Vor is...it'd be a disturbing prospect if Vor had the 'fortune' of having the right qualities for the Neural Sentry to make itself a new era 'Guardian' The next Prime codex entry shall be...hopefully interesting, but if I've gleaned anything from how Steve likes to do his lore drops, it's going to be very subtle and open to interpretation. I can wait. Should be good. A little. Though I admit of all the Grineer, I'm a little sorry we can't come to an honourable understanding with Ruk. Say what one will...he's a warrior who lives by his own code of honour and that's rather impressive for a degenerate clone, albeit one wreathed in more bionic technology than others. Although I may just be something of a blood knight sympathiser. Mutual understanding, you know? Note the guy calls out Vay Hek for using the Grustrag Three, after all. We've all been inspired to write a story about the Stalker at one point or another, myself included. He's a mysterious and fascinating character, and as cool as that is it can only go so far. I'm hoping for a quest that allows us to learn more about him sooner or later. Well, personally I think Vor's outside the reach of the Neural Sentry. He's something beyond the regular corrupted, hence why he seems to at least have his self-awareness compared to the others, but what he is and what that means about us has yet to be revealed. As for Ruk... I've never held much of a stock in his "honor", especially given what Grineer "liberation and protection" seems to mean for the rest of the system (slavery, at best). Even his own hatred for the Grustrag Three is more or less because they cost him some great amount, and his immediate response is "traitors must be eradicated, but you think they can be rehabilitated? ... you will bleed regret." People like to talk to him as if he's something above the rest of the Grineer, but he's really just as loyal to his Queens and the Grineer ways as the rest. But yes, more lore drops are always welcome. I need to try and find the time to contribute more than I have to the Simaris scanning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painovoimaton Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) Morec0, where have you seen men with their mouth out in the relays? I've seriously never come across one. (sorry for not quoting, I'm on my phone :P) Edited March 31, 2015 by painovoimaton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakrana Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 We've all been inspired to write a story about the Stalker at one point or another, myself included. He's a mysterious and fascinating character, and as cool as that is it can only go so far. I'm hoping for a quest that allows us to learn more about him sooner or later. Well, personally I think Vor's outside the reach of the Neural Sentry. He's something beyond the regular corrupted, hence why he seems to at least have his self-awareness compared to the others, but what he is and what that means about us has yet to be revealed. As for Ruk... I've never held much of a stock in his "honor", especially given what Grineer "liberation and protection" seems to mean for the rest of the system (slavery, at best). Even his own hatred for the Grustrag Three is more or less because they cost him some great amount, and his immediate response is "traitors must be eradicated, but you think they can be rehabilitated? ... you will bleed regret." People like to talk to him as if he's something above the rest of the Grineer, but he's really just as loyal to his Queens and the Grineer ways as the rest. But yes, more lore drops are always welcome. I need to try and find the time to contribute more than I have to the Simaris scanning. Generally agreed on all points. I won't deny the main crux of why my fic stopped where it has is moving to the wider 'what's really going on'. Stalker is...a useful tool to lead some questions that could lead more...open routes. As for Ruk, he's mostly appreciated for the rather apt 'Just mercenaries?' deal. Won't deny he's problematic but...he sure has entertaining dialogue. Vor's admittedly a similar boat, in as much as he's...interesting. Though Vor's kind of pitiable in a way; seeker of knowledge who basically paid everything he had to glean but small truths. Sure, his new status as the only known Energy Being in setting is interesting, but even then...it raises the question of what is above the Neural Sentry to be guiding Vor. Course, the Neural Sentry itself is of questionable status these days: Is it a type of Cephalon? Older than Ordis' alleged Class 2 per Simaris' quip, or distinct from them entirely? Apologies for the general digression, at any rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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