Please Remove The New Version Of Wave Dashing: Infinite Melee Slide Attack

[Blatantfool]

ITT:

 

 Something like that. Seems contagious too. Time for everyone to stop posting long enough to watch something to ground those nerves.

 

[Halbrecht]

Anyway, it would be smart for this game to have some sort of "Charge in" for engaging melee mechanic, so the "choppy" players to outpace "shooty" ones.

[Vyaldyn]

I wouldn't like to see melee-dashing removed as it makes the game fun for me (and a lot of other people). I think lowering default stamina regen and making stamina/run speed mods better in comparison would be the correct approach instead of completely removing it.

[Arlayn]

Reminds me of the Butterfly attack on Gunz the one that requires crazy combo of attacks and wall jumping in a cheap manner that allows it to be used infinitely just like the slide attack. Its a way the players can invent advanced moves just like Gunz. Some players like to be advanced with the technical moves. I can't do it, nor do I... usually gets me killed just doing a normal slide and melee on poison ancients. Not everyone can do it but it just comes breaking down to combat styles. You do your thing, they do their thing, and I do my thing... (which is pretending I am playing Dark Sector... funny thing is, rolling around the room and hiding behind cover works a lot better then insanely running out in the open lol...) You still get the exp even if they make the kill. It is their way of contributing to the squad as a whole. Not everyone can fight the way you do. They contribute by clearing out a room. I can guarantee you there are things in this game like poison ancients that ruin their day in the higher level areas.

[Cerenth]

The only thing I'll respond to is this, because this is becoming an ad nauseam repetition.

 

When I said "remove", since you took issue with this specific word, it was obvious to me that I was not saying remove melee slide attacking. That would be preposterous, and accusing me of "moving the goal" or whatever is just ridiculous. I'm not here to argue with you, I have no interest in "winning" anything, be it an argument or internet cookies.

 

I came here to say that I believe an in game mechanic is being exploited, and that the ability to do it ad infinitum should be removed.

 

As I've said before, if you disagree, fine. But don't expect me to agree with you when you and other present nothing more than personal attacks and self validating logic.

 

And as a final note, before you feign such large offense at me not tackling your pages of comments I would consider well your own words, and calling people you don't know "children" and "whiners" among a bevy of other such wonderfully passive aggressive comments.

 

I have no further interest in arguing needlessly with you or anyone else. I won't be responding to you again because much like another user I have had negative experiences with, I continue to do nothing else but politely state my opinion and desire that what I believe to be an exploited in game mechanic be fixed, removed, what have you. And in return I keep receiving varying degrees of personal insults and circular or self validating logic.

 

As they say, we will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

I have to assume at this point that you didn't even read my post. I have explained quite clearly my position and you've assumed that I've taken a different argument. You've passed it all off as "circular or self validating logic." You've assumed that I've attacked your character. I invite you to reread my post and actually respond to my points one by one. To do what you've just done is to create a strawman -- to attack, or in this case dismiss, an argument that doesn't exist.

 

If you don't wish to argue with me in this manner, fine, but it does show your insincerity when you're unwilling to consider alternative points of view. If you truly wish to convince others, read their arguments, dismantle them and explain why they're wrong. Please don't just dismiss things out of hand. It makes you look like a troll.

[Luxangel7]

I have to assume at this point that you didn't even read my post. I have explained quite clearly my position and you've assumed that I've taken a different argument. You've passed it all off as "circular or self validating logic." You've assumed that I've attacked your character. I invite you to reread my post and actually respond to my points one by one. To do what you've just done is to create a strawman -- to attack, or in this case dismiss, an argument that doesn't exist.

 

If you don't wish to argue with me in this manner, fine, but it does show your insincerity when you're unwilling to consider alternative points of view. If you truly wish to convince others, read their arguments, dismantle them and explain why they're wrong. Please don't just dismiss things out of hand. It makes you look like a troll.

 

Yes I called your logic circular and self validating, because it simply is. Your entire post rotated and depended upon the assumption of me being a but hurt 12 year old child who "gets beat" (your words) because I'm apparently playing as a fast frame who gets speed envy of frosts and rhinos passing him with this expoit. What? Gets beat at what? Strawmen? Being Insincere?  WHAT are you talking about? What further dismantling do I need of your argument when it boils down to "dev created game mechanics are bad, so player discovered exploits are perfectly fine"??? ( just in case you missed it, that's a rhetorical question, because believe me, I really don't care about further entertaining you at this point)

 

 

Your argument has no merit or logical legs to stand on for me to dismantle it! And YOU ignored EVERY single point and example I made in my many posts in this thread, so save me your feigned moral discontent on a VIDEO GAME forum...good grief...you're either desperately trying to grab at straws defending your preference for infinite but sliding however you can, or you're simply trolling. Either case is really just sad. Hence why I said I'm done with you. If you take offense at that, guess what? I really don't care.

 

P.S.- and guess what? My favorite frame IS Frost, and I use the dual zoren with alternate skin ALL the time and I use this exploit EVERY single time I see others using it because it's the only way to keep up. I have no problems actually doing it, since apparently you and others think that I cannot and that out of some ridiculously stupid idea that I am envious I have created this thread. I made this thread because of the motives I put forward in the OP. Go read it again while you're at it.

Edited May 13, 2013 by LuxAngel7

[Cerenth]

Yes I called your logic circular and self validating, because it simply is. Your entire post rotated and depended upon the assumption of me being a but hurt 12 year old child who "gets beat" (your words) because I'm apparently playing as a fast frame who gets speed envy of frosts and rhinos passing him with this expoit. What? Gets beat at what? Strawmen? Being Insincere?  WHAT are you talking about? What further dismantling do I need of your argument when it boils down to "dev created game mechanics are bad, so player discovered exploits are perfectly fine"??? ( just in case you missed it, that's a rhetorical question, because believe me, I really don't care about further entertaining you at this point)

 

 

Your argument has no merit or logical legs to stand on for me to dismantle it! And YOU ignored EVERY single point and example I made in my many posts in this thread, so save me your feigned moral discontent on a VIDEO GAME forum...good grief...you're either desperately trying to grab at straws defending your preference for infinite but sliding however you can, or you're simply trolling. Either case is really just sad. Hence why I said I'm done with you. If you take offense at that, guess what? I really don't care.

 

P.S.- and guess what? My favorite frame IS Frost, and I use the dual zoren with alternate skin ALL the time and I use this exploit EVERY single time I see others using it because it's the only way to keep up. I have no problems actually doing it, since apparently you and others think that I cannot and that out of some ridiculously stupid idea that I am envious I have created this thread. I made this thread because of the motives I put forward in the OP. Go read it again while you're at it.

 

Please quote where I called you a child.

 

I don't think you'll be able to, since I never did. Please stop making it out that you're being persecuted or mischaracterized. I've done nothing but provide potential logical justifications for your actions. I am also not annoyed by your posts, nor do I take offence at your posts. If you note the tone of my posts, you'll see that I've tried to remain neutral throughout. I cannot say the same for your posts.

 

If you don't understand the concept of insincerity or strawmen, that's not really my problem. I'm pretty sure I explained it in really basic terms, but at this stage I can only tell you to google these terms. I'm fairly confident they are used in common parlance.

 

What about my logic is actually wrong? It doesn't seem circular to me. You keep on using the term, but I don't think you know what it means. Circular would be something like:

 

>X is true because Y is true.

>Y is true because X is true.

 

 

What I've presented is a justification for the current state of the game.

 

>The mechanics are bad.

>Players find ways to fix that.

>Such fixes are valid until the original mechanics are fixed by the devs, and the devs shouldn't remove the player-found fix until an alternate solution is provided.

 

That is not circular.

 

And you do seem to have missed the first part of my first post. In that post, in addition to insinuating that you might be envious of players who have grasped the finer points of the movement system, I also painted a picture where there is a valid problem. The whole slow frame vs fun aspect. You have curiously neglected to address this in all of your posts with me.

 

If you wish to claim victory by ending the argument prematurely, I'm afraid I'll have to protest. Just because you walked away doesn't mean you get the moral or intellectual highground. You win by proving the points wrong.

 

I illustrated in my example that in the current state of the game without knifeskating slow frames are relegated to the back of the squad, doomed to not engage enemies since they have already been dispatched by faster frames. Please, tell me how your solution to remove knifeskating solves this problem? Or is it alright for slow frames to never engage enemies?

 

I reread your OP. It seems that your two biggest reasons for this entire thread are:

 

1) It looks ridiculous.

2) It invalidates the stamina mechanic.

 

Well, to number 1) -- That's a nice opinion you have there. Unfortunately it doesn't get to dictate how you affect everybody's gameplay. If you dislike the aesthetics of knifeskating, that's easily countered by someone else saying that they do like it. It's subjective.

 

To number 2) -- What is it that makes the Dev's original concept into gospel? If the players develop a new system that invalidates the dev's flawed mechanic, then power to them. That's called emergent gameplay. It has been talked about in this thread before, much to your disdain it seems. What is it about emergent gameplay that is so bad? I think it's a great synergy between players and devs to come to a comprimise. If anything, devs should adopt such popular mechanics into refined gameplay aspects. Would you be happy if the devs were to actually introduce legitimate knifeskating mechanics into the game?

 

Please take the time to read all of this post this time. There are some important points in here, and it'd do us both a disservice if you were to gloss over them.

[DiscWard]

Please quote where I called you a child.

 

I don't think you'll be able to, since I never did. Please stop making it out that you're being persecuted or mischaracterized. I've done nothing but provide potential logical justifications for your actions. I am also not annoyed by your posts, nor do I take offence at your posts. If you note the tone of my posts, you'll see that I've tried to remain neutral throughout. I cannot say the same for your posts.

 

If you don't understand the concept of insincerity or strawmen, that's not really my problem. I'm pretty sure I explained it in really basic terms, but at this stage I can only tell you to google these terms. I'm fairly confident they are used in common parlance.

 

What about my logic is actually wrong? It doesn't seem circular to me. You keep on using the term, but I don't think you know what it means. Circular would be something like:

 

>X is true because Y is true.

>Y is true because X is true.

 

 

What I've presented is a justification for the current state of the game.

 

>The mechanics are bad.

>Players find ways to fix that.

>Such fixes are valid until the original mechanics are fixed by the devs, and the devs shouldn't remove the player-found fix until an alternate solution is provided.

 

That is not circular.

 

And you do seem to have missed the first part of my first post. In that post, in addition to insinuating that you might be envious of players who have grasped the finer points of the movement system, I also painted a picture where there is a valid problem. The whole slow frame vs fun aspect. You have curiously neglected to address this in all of your posts with me.

 

If you wish to claim victory by ending the argument prematurely, I'm afraid I'll have to protest. Just because you walked away doesn't mean you get the moral or intellectual highground. You win by proving the points wrong.

 

I illustrated in my example that in the current state of the game without knifeskating slow frames are relegated to the back of the squad, doomed to not engage enemies since they have already been dispatched by faster frames. Please, tell me how your solution to remove knifeskating solves this problem? Or is it alright for slow frames to never engage enemies?

 

I reread your OP. It seems that your two biggest reasons for this entire thread are:

 

1) It looks ridiculous.

2) It invalidates the stamina mechanic.

 

Well, to number 1) -- That's a nice opinion you have there. Unfortunately it doesn't get to dictate how you affect everybody's gameplay. If you dislike the aesthetics of knifeskating, that's easily countered by someone else saying that they do like it. It's subjective.

 

To number 2) -- What is it that makes the Dev's original concept into gospel? If the players develop a new system that invalidates the dev's flawed mechanic, then power to them. That's called emergent gameplay. It has been talked about in this thread before, much to your disdain it seems. What is it about emergent gameplay that is so bad? I think it's a great synergy between players and devs to come to a comprimise. If anything, devs should adopt such popular mechanics into refined gameplay aspects. Would you be happy if the devs were to actually introduce legitimate knifeskating mechanics into the game?

 

Please take the time to read all of this post this time. There are some important points in here, and it'd do us both a disservice if you were to gloss over them.

I am in wholehearted agreement with Cerenth on this. I hate to say this, but until the stamina mechanic is repaired, you ought not to ask for its removal.

As for the animation looking bad, that's nobody's fault, not even DE. They'll update animations when it fits into their development cycle.

[HungerSTGF]

Ironically, OP has been attacking people's character this whole time by saying people who do this use macros with the connotation that macros are for cheaters and losers, and by implying people are pathetic because they are arguing on a video game forum.

In any case, something's wrong if you need a macro to to tap out a sequence as simple as run, jump, crouch, melee; keys are remappable! The biggest question I have is: why would you care about people going around at ridiculous speeds when you're playing a game about space ninjas? Finding new ways to traverse the terrain and swinging your sword is what being a ninja is all about- knifeskating embodies both of those aspects of being a ninja. Aside from it looking silly, it's fun and doesn't break the balance of the game.

Edited May 13, 2013 by HungerSTGF

[Inspector_Flagellum]

So I would prefer to see everyone's points addressed (preferably in a calm fashion). In order for this to happen, I shall attempt to summarise the arguments I've seen posted by a certain pair of users (in roughly chronological order of posts) as impartially as I can:

 

Anti melee slide:

-The technique is overpowered

-The technique seems to be an unintentional feature, therefore it is arguably an "exploit"

-The technique invalidates stamina mechanic (an intentional mechanic)

-The technique is aestetically displeasing

 

Pro melee slide:

-The technique is equally performable by all frames; some find the speed disparity between frames imbalanced, therefore the technique arguably overcomes existing speed-related balance issues

-The technique is an example of player creativity, a practice which enhances a game

-Technique requires a measure of aptitude to perform, and should be seen not as an "exploit" but as an "advanced player skill"

-The technique currently enhances "fun" for some, therefore fix/removal/prevention will detract from some players' experience, with significantly less gain to others' experience

 

Anti melee slide:

-Current, intentional movement methods are adequate

 

Pro melee slide:

-Removal of technique (or its effectiveness) is a poor solution, especially as it would discourage players' inventiveness; better to find an alternative (presumably something intentional that supercedes the technique)

-The current, intentional methods are not adequate, and the technique's development is arguably a result, and evidence, of this

 

Anti melee slide:

-The technique is exploiting a game mechanic and its effectiveness should be limited to prevent this while retaining the melee slide as a performable maneuvre

Edited May 13, 2013 by Zadok13

[Namacyst]

I don't get why there is even a discussion about this here.

 

Melee-dashing is an Exploit. Period.

 

Exploits should be removed. Period.

 

I am right. Period.

[Blatantfool]

I don't get why there is even a discussion about this here.

 

Melee-dashing is an Exploit. Period.

 

Exploits should be removed. Period.

 

I am right. Period.

 

 That is an awful lot of opinions you just listed off as facts. 

[Arlayn]

I don't get why there is even a discussion about this here.

 

Melee-dashing is an Exploit. Period.

 

Exploits should be removed. Period.

 

I am right. Period.

I feel like someone is trying to explain the definition of normal to me... Melee dashing is just an advanced technique. Why is it so wrong to have an advanced technique for once in this game? I mean we have absolutely nothing else other then the annoying run, jump, kick, slide, flip which gets irritating personal and I still do want a different animation for something faster, but this gets people going faster, kills stuff, and its a fun technique... the true ultimate ability of a Masterful Tenno. This is what seperates Masters from none masters. Not that you bought Grand Master, but that you got the moves to back it up. Money is not skill, this is skill and a respectable one at that due to how hard it is to pull off. Even wall running from wall to wall is easier then this.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Arlayn

[ThePresident777]

space bumber car ninjas that hover endlessly sliding every which way as if our shields were made of butter.

 

 

Now, THAT, is what I call a game, good fun!

[Brasten]

Pro melee slide:

-The technique is equally performable by all frames; some find the speed disparity between frames imbalanced, therefore the technique arguably overcomes existing speed-related balance issues

But not all weapons. It is restricted to specific sub-set of fast attacking weapons. This adds an additional benefit to those weapons alone that was originally intended. The Zoren, Dual Heat Sword, and Dual Either do not come with Movement Speed+ as a listed Utility Power.

[Blatantfool]

But not all weapons. It is restricted to specific sub-set of fast attacking weapons. This adds an additional benefit to those weapons alone that was originally intended. The Zoren, Dual Heat Sword, and Dual Either do not come with Movement Speed+ as a listed Utility Power.

 

 Maybe they should.

[Cerenth]

 Maybe they should.

+1ed the Hek out of this. I'd love for DE to embrace this playstyle and this is a great solution for it.

[Digestia]

People macro this?

 

Also, I agree, I don't really see the point of stamina mods as it is.

[Blatantfool]

+1ed the Hek out of this. I'd love for DE to embrace this playstyle and this is a great solution for it.

 

 After talking at a lot of people discussing this issue I'm defintitely of the opinion that:

 

 1. Yep. Right now its silly. 

 

 and

 

 2. Nope. Shouldn't be totally removed.

 

 

 I think that DE should take these things in and work them into the playbook. Take a neat little bug that does a cool thing and find a way to work it into a real part of our moveset that presents some neat options.

[Brasten]

 Maybe they should.

List it as a Utility Power or make it a universal aspect regardless of weapon?

 

The summery of things to 'fix' to make this a legitimate game play boil down to 3 things:

 

1) Needs to be independent of weapon

2) Address the extreme end of speeds achievable

3) The infinite chaining 

 

One thing I keep seeing from folks in favor push back on is removing the infinite chain spinning. I can't get behind that at all, you sure can't wall run forever without appropriate level design. If it's going to be an actual feature it can't be infinite. Eventually those momentum boosts should fall off without some kind of break in the sequence. Reducing the maximum speeds that have been shown, and requiring eventual breaks, would bring it more in line with existing alternate travel methods (slide flips and wall launching).

 

=====

 

Aside- I still think a spin-off Kart Race would be absolutely hilarious.

[Blatantfool]

List it as a Utility Power or make it a universal aspect regardless of weapon?

 

The summery of things to 'fix' to make this a legitimate game play boil down to 3 things:

 

1) Needs to be independent of weapon

2) Address the extreme end of speeds achievable

3) The infinite chaining 

 

One thing I keep seeing from folks in favor push back on is removing the infinite chain spinning. I can't get behind that at all, you sure can't wall run forever without appropriate level design. If it's going to be an actual feature it can't be infinite. Eventually those momentum boosts should fall off without some kind of break in the sequence. Reducing the maximum speeds that have been shown, and requiring eventual breaks, would bring it more in line with existing alternate travel methods (slide flips and wall launching).

 

=====

 

Aside- I still think a spin-off Kart Race would be absolutely hilarious.

 

 

 Well, I'll be real specific so you know what page I'm on.

 

 I think Zoren Launching should be made an actual part of the moveset. I disagree that all weapons should be able to do it, although most of them should if it becomes an actual part of the moveset. 

 

 The chain spinning is different. I think maybe that can go. I see the Zoren Launching as a different thing - mostly because I believe a long-jump technique would be really neat.

[TraumaHunter]

This topic needs to just die.

-.-

No seriously.

Are we done? It's obvious that the "impenetrable wall" has met the "unstoppable force"

It's up to DE to make a decision.  Another 20 pages of the SAME exact back and forth wont change anything.  Both sides did a wonderful job :|

The thumbs up were just about even i'de say.  It's a highly controversial topic - if/when DE decides to do something about it I'm sure they will reference this topic (and the other 8 topics on this).

Till then - can we please... stop beating the dead horse?

The last half dozen pages have been pretty much the same arguments thrown back and forth as the first 6 pages.  With very few exceptions.

[Blatantfool]

Why do you continually post in a discussion you don't like?

[Nixtarian]

How about those that employ the slide attack in battle situations?? I stopped using Zorens a few weeks back because you can only get one slide attack off before you draw your weapon. The distance gained by using two slide attacks helps you create space when you melee so you do not put yourself in a ton of danger. It also beats just standing there and using regular melee or charged attacks because it gives melee combat a great fast paced feel that is rewarding imo. There are two sides to this, and not everyone uses it as an "exploit". Without it melee would feel a little too slow for me and it is one of the reasons that I really enjoy playing. 

[3Jane]

What kind of animation would people want to replace the current Zoren one? 

Just out of interest, because I can't really imagine anything fitting that well myself.

It just looks like an unrealistic distance to me (even in the context of space ninjas), so adding a flip, spin or something mid air would still look off I think.

 

@Trauma if you don't want to contribute don't contribute and go read/do other stuff, its an interesting discussion and back and forth imo. Quite a touchy subject. ;}