Improving Player Scaling And Survivability: Health And Shield Gating Mechanics

[bejuizb]

I don't see a downside to it. One shot kills from things like ballistas are not challenge, after all.

 

As long as they don't put it on enemies. Putting it on enemies would be terrible, especially for certain guns.

 

For those of you who are too lazy to read;

Shield gating pretty much means a single hit can wipe out your shields but will not touch your health in the same shot.

It treats shields as a separate protection layer rather than 'just more health', which is what it technically is now.

 

One downside to this mechanic is pseudo invincibility for frames with shield regen abilities, such as Mag or Trinity (with her new Augment), but I'm work on the assumption that this is intended to induce changes to those abilities and augments. And yes, I agree with the idea of not introducing it to enemies, since single shot semi automatic weapons would suffer even more.

 

Thanks for the TL;DR. I couldn't think of a two line version of my post :)

 

 

I actually like this idea. I will admit to severe bias towards it because I enjoy playing tank-like builds, but honestly I think this mechanic would be very helpful in higher tiers of play.

The goal of the mechanic is to allow players to play what they want while having the ability to survive. So it would make tanks tankier, and squishies tankier as well. But it's a temporary defense, since the gates are conditional and provide split second benefits, not substantial enough to allow ludicruous levels of durability (unless you're sitting in a corner and spamming the hell out of shield regen abilities). Glad you liked it, and thanks for the feedback!

 

 

Im ALL for it ... one shot kills(from enemies) in PVE is NEVER a good choice and never should be in any real game that deserves quality like warframe

I agree :D

 

This seems like a good idea.

 

Finally we can have the advanced shields of the nullifiers at our disposal, they already have this gated mechanic (in several steps actually).

 

One problem with it would be if enemies get this as well. It would seem really weird to me when a fully modded opticor can't one shot a lvl 1 moa anymore.

No, I don't think this would work in a horde mode PvE game like Warframe when used on our enemies. The gating is to allow us to survive long enough to dish out the damage to the enemies, and considering it's usually four of us against dozens if not hundreds of enemies, yeah, not a good idea to let them survive better. 

 

I like the idea, cause it was useful in BL2 and it would fit perfectly here for high level gameplay. The only problem I see was a problem that existed in BL2 as well: any form of healing yourself for makes it almost impossible kill. It would make Life Strike and Winds of Purity so much better than they already are, almost broken so. I'm not suggesting nerfing those two, but if Health gating was added Life Strike and WoP would probably need a change.

Yeah, I agree with the point regarding reworking health and shield restoring mechanics already available. I made this idea with the consideration of there being no forms of health and shield regen on an "average" frame like Excalibur, who possesses no such ability naturally.

 

 

Health gating might not be a good option, but shield gating definitely is.

Yeah, health gating is a bit more iffy, what with Trinity and Life Strike being abundant in higher tier builds. Perhaps with the help of people here, I can streamline the idea better!

 

I really really like this idea..

 

And I hope DE adopts it, because getting 1 shot is no fun at all. I don't even play frames that don't have high armor/sheild/health because what's the point? Gonna get 1 shot anyway, eventually, lower my armor/shield/health the sooner.

Thanks! And yeah, I agree. This is to let squishies have a chance to survive without resorting to cheese tactics. 

 

Yeeeeah. we need this, I've been instagibbed a few too many times. Especially by death orbs. that go through 1200 Iron skin, 1110 shields and 700+ hp in less than 1.5 seconds. and It happened more than once on a T2 exterminate.

(Also I'm still of the opinion that those Manics were designed to oneshot players no matter what) Especially since the moas could own their faces.

Manics prompted me to make this thread. Getting 8000hp instantly gibbed made me very angry and frustrated lol.

 

 

I am all for this 100%

 

....Though I can see how this would do some Very interesting things to how people mod their warframes... Which could be an extra bonus on top of that!

Thanks! And yeah, I hope this idea, if implemented in some form (one can dream), helps sway the meta of the game and change how it's played at high tier missions. 

 

I'm all for shield gating, though again with the new trinity augment and MAG's shield polarize it may be too easy to pretty much avoid the shield gating, but there are ways around that for both shield gating and health gating. It's not a bad idea, but some mechanics could make it a bit too easy to not die with it. All they would have to do is like "after you lose your shields you cannot have restores or whatever affect the shields until the recharge pops in" and for health gating "after you reach the health gate once things that would normally heal you unaffect you for a few seconds". Though that would indirectly nerf some frames.

Yeah, I considered this issue. Your solution seems to be an interesting first step, but it does have a loophole or two (nothing we can't remedy as a community :P). Perhaps make it so that any restores used have a wait period, as you said, but instead of gibbing frames or the items, make it instant boost the health or shields of the frames, since the restores release periodic pulses. Assuming each pulse restores 100 shields every 1s for 4s, a shield gate would mean once the 2s grace period is done, you recharge 200 shields instantly, followed by 2 100 shield ticks. This is just another suggestion, to add to your feedback. 

 

 

Theres no mechanics involved, if you want to have more hp in general you increase base stats, if you want more hp after certain progression stage you increase bonus on mods.

 

Shield/hp mods give you 146% increase over their base value, power strength mods give you 30, 55, 99 increase over base value, weapon mods give you over 5000% increase over base value.

Thats the biggest problem with balance in game.

While you may be correct, I'm drawing a blank on fixing the entire issue of balance all at once, and wanted to try and take a small step with introducing scaling friendly survivability buffs to frames. Maybe with some time and brainstorming, we can figure something out that helps push the game in a better direction.

 

I apologize for not responding to the other replies here. I didn't expect so many in one day! I'll get to replying to them as soon as I can. Till then, I just wanna thank everyone for the support and feedback, be it upvotes, comments, etc. Means a lot :D

[DSpite]

Hold on, normal enemies don't one shot you. Stupid Level enemies, or enemy units hand made SPECIFICALLY to one-shot you, do so.

 

You can't simple say "if I go fight a Starship and it shoots me with it's primary weapons then I should be shield or health gated". Borderlands only does so because it has other mechanics, and you can even revive yourself by taking someone out, also., fighting ANYTHING justa  few level above you in Borderlands is akin to suicide. When the Red Skull pops up, at 5 levels above you, it means "not only will this unit 2 shot you, you will also not do any damage to it worth talking about".

 

If you stick yourself in an Endless mission, you already KNOW this happens, so maybe, DONT go a second/third/fourth rotation? First you place yourself in a mission that you already know will eventually scale to one shot you, then request that to stop happening.

 

I don't get one shotted on the Solar Map OR Alerts. It only happens when units are twice your level. Twice your level. No one even blinks when you say that, even though it's like saying that it's like a soldier with a rifle taking on an armored tank and complaining the main battle gun can one-shot him.

Edited April 14, 2015 by DSpite

[DSpite]

Shields don't take "max damage". They take -25% from Radiation and take an extra +50% damage when hit with magnetic from enemy units, etc etc, and the armor damage reduction mechanics is just some weird stuff that DE thought up. If Valkyr can Armour Tank, then Rhino should have something to Shield Tank with, not have Iron Skin work OVER the top of shields.

 

If you get hit by an 80 level units, you should die. Gating in Borderlands does not work if you are in the middle of bad guys way above your level, you will still die. Gating there simply allows you to play peek-a-boo with enemy units from cover and a safe spot, and not simply get insta-gibbed.

 

Also, go fight level 50 enemies with a level 30 character, see how far you get. Hint: No where. Red Skulls appear just after a difference in 5 levels. You will do reduce damage, and get one two-shotted.

 

Health Gating in Borderlands

 

If a character has at least two health points more than 50% of maximum health, he/she cannot be crippled by a single enemy attack; instead, the character's health will be reduced to an extremely low value. This mechanic is known as health gating and is intended to give the player a chance to recover or escape in the face of extremely powerful enemies. The health gate does not protect against damage-over-time effects or environmental damage such from exploding barrels.

Understanding health gating is important when fighting raid bosses because their attacks are often powerful enough to completely deplete health and shields in the absence of the health gate. A player may prefer to keep their maximum health low (such as by using a Turtle Shield) when fighting raid bosses so that health regeneration and other effects can more quickly bring their health back to approximately 50% after being hit, ensuring that they remain protected by the health gate.

 

I'd rather not.

[Ziegrif]

Sounds like Mass Effect 3.

In that game it was possible to run with zero health and shields and just rely on gates to keep you alive.

Glass cannons had the bets results due to this.

 

It'd be a good idea for WF too. The game seems to prefer builds with large amounts of health in anyway shape or form making glass cannons almost obsolete unless you have a hard counter to aggro like invisibility.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Ziegrif

[Davoodoo]

While you may be correct, I'm drawing a blank on fixing the entire issue of balance all at once, and wanted to try and take a small step with introducing scaling friendly survivability buffs to frames. Maybe with some time and brainstorming, we can figure something out that helps push the game in a better direction.

Dont fall into same trap as de did, bandaid fixing problems instead of removing core problem.

[TARINunit9]

As long as we get SOMEthing such that the Grustrag Three can't kill Frost, inside his Snow Globe, in one shot, using only Shik Tal's splash damage, within a second of the Grustrag spawning in, I'll be happy

[Lightwire]

This. I approve of this!

I like the idea that it leaves you in that 'Fight or Flight' moment. Instead of you going for cover, you could have an ability that might get you out of dodge or even neutralize enemies for that moment to risk the opportunity to kill those around you. If you can't, then you're weakened and vulnerable.

I think this might add an interesting mechanic to the game for certain situations.

However it's not a full on fix for an issue that happens with the rapid scaling that this game suffers from.

I like a lot of directions that DE goes down. There are a few moments where they've faltered but they've slowly picked themselves back up. That being said I think that the enemy scaling is a bit ludicrous.

I think certain enemies require scaling to a point, but others should have caps. Maybe having a Heavy gunner cap out at Lv40 or a Bombard cap out at 50. Maybe even have Lancers cap out at 20 or so with higher priority targets like having a scorpion round out at 30. 

It's a bit silly when you're facing up against a standard lancer that can drain your shields in seconds when you're supposed to, theoretically, be superior to it in every way.

The shield gait might be what we need for a temporary solution until the scaling issues are addressed.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Lightwire

[Otaiken]

I thought about something like this.

 

Though instead of damage reduction I would like damage simply not bleeding through the shield and to health.

 

This would prevent one-shots. It would also give a tactical value to shields even for frames that have very little of them or don't rely on them at all. Instead of an irrelevant number it would be 1 guaranteed hit that won't directly affect your HP. And lastly it will give you a chance to react.

 

 

I would like to see a niche to shields in general. Shields have no synergy in this game. HP synergises with armor and melee and energy to create some interesting builds. You have your melee Rage+Life Strike, you have QT+Rage+Flow... all sort of things.

 

What do shields synergise with? Well, you have your regen speed and that's about it. 

 

I would love a dodge tank build in Warframe. Something that promotes agility, speed and positioning as opposed to simply facetanking everything. maybe +% dodge chance for shields when spriting/melee/etc.? Once can dream...

[elele]

Absolutely no. No Boredlands 2 stupid mechanism in WF. This "HP/shield gating" has been exploited to death in Boredlands 2 and we don't need more exploiting in WF. 

[Ordel]

Nice idea imo. I think the main reason people don't like it is because of exploitability- which can easily be fixed with a health gate cooldown. Maybe a few minutes.

 

Not a fan of shield gating since if you let your shield run out, you don't really deserve anything for it. Health is a different thing.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Ordel

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Shields don't take "max damage". They take -25% from Radiation and take an extra +50% damage when hit with magnetic from enemy units, etc etc, and the armor damage reduction mechanics is just some weird stuff that DE thought up. If Valkyr can Armour Tank, then Rhino should have something to Shield Tank with, not have Iron Skin work OVER the top of shields.

 

If you get hit by an 80 level units, you should die. Gating in Borderlands does not work if you are in the middle of bad guys way above your level, you will still die. Gating there simply allows you to play peek-a-boo with enemy units from cover and a safe spot, and not simply get insta-gibbed.

 

Also, go fight level 50 enemies with a level 30 character, see how far you get. Hint: No where. Red Skulls appear just after a difference in 5 levels. You will do reduce damage, and get one two-shotted.

 

Health Gating in Borderlands

 

If a character has at least two health points more than 50% of maximum health, he/she cannot be crippled by a single enemy attack; instead, the character's health will be reduced to an extremely low value. This mechanic is known as health gating and is intended to give the player a chance to recover or escape in the face of extremely powerful enemies. The health gate does not protect against damage-over-time effects or environmental damage such from exploding barrels.

Understanding health gating is important when fighting raid bosses because their attacks are often powerful enough to completely deplete health and shields in the absence of the health gate. A player may prefer to keep their maximum health low (such as by using a Turtle Shield) when fighting raid bosses so that health regeneration and other effects can more quickly bring their health back to approximately 50% after being hit, ensuring that they remain protected by the health gate.

 

I'd rather not.

 

1. Raids are at level 80. Player levels and enemy levels have never had any correlation, and this further proves that. Moreover, it means you can't criticize a player for fighting enemies at that level.

 

2. Ballistas, Seekers(Krakens), and Detrons can wipe a lighter frame's shields in one hit at level 40, assuming they use Redirection.

Although health gating probably won't work out well. Shield gating would be a plus, but not with the invulnerability period afterward.

[Boatsniper]

OP forgot about slash and toxin procs, which bypass shields completely.

 

Borderlands 2 does a lot of things right that Warframe does so stupidly wrong. For one, the player scales WITH the content in every way (damage-per-shot, shield capacity, maximum health, ability damage, etc.). Warframe does not. In fact, there's a huge gap between player and enemy damage output and effective health when comparing "matching" levels/ranks. Borderlands 2 has something like 1:1 scaling, which means a level 10 player and level 10 enemy will deal and receive proportionate damage to their level 30 counterparts, theoretically.

 

Essentially, infinitely scaling enemies requires infinitely scaling players. Once DE realizes that literally infinite scaling and progression are horrible design choices, they'll institute a player cap. Then, once DE realizes their current progression system is more broken than Sonic '06 and completely trivializes the highest level enemies, they will "rework" the progression system, into something more broken than Sonic Boom that has absurdly inconsistent mechanics, while releasing more and more power creeped weapons, frames, and mods.

 

Oh wait. They already did that.

[elele]

OP forgot about slash and toxin procs, which bypass shields completely.

 

Borderlands 2 does a lot of things right that Warframe does so stupidly wrong. For one, the player scales WITH the content in every way (damage-per-shot, shield capacity, maximum health, ability damage, etc.). Warframe does not. In fact, there's a huge gap between player and enemy damage output and effective health when comparing "matching" levels/ranks. Borderlands 2 has something like 1:1 scaling, which means a level 10 player and level 10 enemy will deal and receive proportionate damage to their level 30 counterparts, theoretically.

 

This is so wrong on so many levels I can't even ...

 

If you played Boredlands 2 past level 61 in UVHM, you'd know Boredlands 2 enemies HP scale MUCH, MUCH steeper than player HP. While player/enemy damage may be 1:1 (not sure, but assuming so for the moment), because enemies have MUCH more effective HP, at lvl 72 enemies would kill players in one shot, but players need to shoot bullet sponge enemies for eternity to kill them. 

 

Look at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/6mxNDMn.png

 

So Gearbox put in HP gating as a bandaid fix. So many broken things resulted from this that the whole game's balance is completely broken. 

 

If DE ever has ever done one thing right in WF, it's that they know scaling past a certain point is just categorically, completely, $&*&*#(%&. So DE never tries to balance past that point. 

 

In DE's mind, the upper-limit of enemy scaling is level 90 enemies vs 4 players. Just look at raids. And the game is perfectly balanced at that level. Perhaps too balanced because it's a little boring with 4 corrosive projection and molecular prime. 

Edited April 15, 2015 by elele

[Otaiken]

If DE ever has ever done one thing right in WF, it's that they know scaling past a certain point is just categorically, completely, $&*&*#(%&. So DE never tries to balance past that point. 

 

In DE's mind, the upper-limit of enemy scaling is level 90 enemies vs 4 players. Just look at raids. And the game is perfectly balanced at that level. Perhaps too balanced because it's a little boring with 4 corrosive projection and molecular prime. 

 

Yet pretty much a year's worth of content in this game is decidedly NOT balanced at this point. This is very recent thing (with the raids and all). And with the rate of balance changes we get.. yeah... this game is very much still  "balanced" against infinite enemy scaling and has MANY problems because of it.

 

Seriously, saying that Warframe is as of U16 perfectly balanced around lvl 90 enemies / 4 players is absolutely ridiculous.

Edited April 15, 2015 by LocoWithGun

[elele]

Yet pretty much a year's worth of content in this game is decidedly NOT balanced at this point. This is very recent thing (with the raids and all). And with the rate of balance changes we get.. yeah... this game is very much still  "balanced" against infinite enemy scaling and has MANY problems because of it.

 

Seriously, saying that Warframe is as of U16 perfectly balanced around lvl 90 enemies / 4 players is absolutely ridiculous.

 

I don't know what you mean. But in my experience, 4 players with proper setup against lvl 70 to 90 enemies is the perfect balance between feeling in danger and feeling powerful at the same time. --as long as you don't use the Loki+Trin+Vauban+Torid setup for maximum boredom. 

 

Soloing with proper gear up to 40min in high level star chart maps or void also is the perfect balance. 

 

Going beyond that point is not only boring but also pointless so DE probably never bothered balancing beyond that. 

[Boatsniper]

This is so wrong on so many levels I can't even ...

 

If you played Boredlands 2 past level 61 in UVHM, you'd know Boredlands 2 enemies HP scale MUCH, MUCH steeper than player HP. While player/enemy damage may be 1:1 (not sure, but assuming so for the moment), because enemies have MUCH more effective HP, at lvl 72 enemies would kill players in one shot, but players need to shoot bullet sponge enemies for eternity to kill them. 

 

Look at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/6mxNDMn.png

 

So Gearbox put in HP gating as a bandaid fix. So many broken things resulted from this that the whole game's balance is completely broken. 

 

If DE ever has ever done one thing right in WF, it's that they know scaling past a certain point is just categorically, completely, $&*&*#(%&. So DE never tries to balance past that point. 

 

In DE's mind, the upper-limit of enemy scaling is level 90 enemies vs 4 players. Just look at raids. And the game is perfectly balanced at that level. Perhaps too balanced because it's a little boring with 4 corrosive projection and molecular prime. 

You skipped straight to level 61+ where the power difference is highest, whereas my level 10 vs. 30 example seemed been conveniently ignored. Also, the X-axis on your chart doesn't start at 0. Try posting information that isn't so purposefully misleading.

 

The HP gating may be a quick fix, but it's a hell of a lot better than what DE has been doing (and not doing) recently. Gearbox understands that players hate one-shot mechanics, especially in the end-game.

 

There's something you appear to have forgotten. The "certain point" where DE stops "balancing" exists in the first place. Just stop and consider that fact for a moment. There's a threshold with their content scaling where DE just stops caring, even though it can easily be surpassed and exploited. It exists in the first place. Do you not see something wrong with that mentality?

[elele]

You skipped straight to level 61+ where the power difference is highest, whereas my level 10 vs. 30 example seemed been conveniently ignored. Also, the X-axis on your chart doesn't start at 0. Try posting information that isn't so purposefully misleading.

 

Now if you've played Boredlands 2, you should know that there is NO WAY in Boredlands 2 to stop leveling. The 61-level-cap-increase patch is mandatory on Steam. You WILL level past level 10-30 in a couple of hours. You WILL level past level 50. You don't have any choice. Level 10-30 is meaningless in Boredlands 2 and you know it. 

 

BTW, few sane people in WF would go past 40min in T4 because the return/effort is just diminishing. Exploiting? Sure you can hardcore sewer camping for maybe 4 hours in T4 survival. But how many people actually do that? Clearly not many because even DE, as heavy-handed as they're when it comes to "exploiting" (e.g. Viver), doesn't care. 

 

Also I don't see your point. Are you suggesting that WF is too difficult below lvl 30-50? Because clearly it isn't difficult. Are you suggesting the game is too easy past lvl 50? Because clearly it isn't easy unless you use very specific loadout (which you don't have to use). So what's the problem? 

Edited April 15, 2015 by elele

[DSpite]

1. Raids are at level 80. Player levels and enemy levels have never had any correlation, and this further proves that. Moreover, it means you can't criticize a player for fighting enemies at that level.

 

2. Ballistas, Seekers(Krakens), and Detrons can wipe a lighter frame's shields in one hit at level 40, assuming they use Redirection.

Although health gating probably won't work out well. Shield gating would be a plus, but not with the invulnerability period afterward.

 

I do remember your name, and I do trust your judgement on things, but Raids are simply a "persistent, scripted Tactical Alert".

 

I have faced level 60-80 units and had forgotten to bring the "max DPS hose" and instead had my "reasonable DPS, fast reload/big magazine/Ammo Mutator gun" and remembered I had that one when a full clip to an enemy face didn't even take them to one-third of the bar.

 

I want to fight things closer to our levels but with HARDER to play SCENARIOS and abilities, not scaled "normal" enemies on empty levels.

 

We have guns, Frames and Abilities, I want to enjoy using all of them against varied enemies and levels that have some ebb and flow to them, not just Lemmings walking single file into my bullets that simply absorb more bullets as a clock ticks higher.

 

Level 30 units should be a threat. Level 40 units should be dangerous. Level 50 should be close to one-shots. Level 60's ... that's TWICE our level by the way, in other games this would actually mean something - should be Gods, and they should be RARE, yet here we are, facing level 300 Butchers, complaining the balance is off.

 

Take Skyrim. At level 1, I'm fighting bandits on the road armed with daggers, at level 50 I'm STILL finding bandits on the road, but now they are armed with Artifacts. I should be just finding bandits with some better gear, but get ambushed, or be dropped into a trap, or similar, not "Ha ah! Give us your money", "Hold on, if you need money, why are you holding an Obsidian Sword worth 50000 Gold Pieces?"

 

The bandits should scale a little, and other units replace them, like kill squads from a King you annoyed, or the Dragon Hatchlings of an old broodmother you killed for a village. THAT is scaling, not level 300 Rats.

 

Are we playing a "Ninjas FPS in space" or are we playing "Ninja Dungeon Defenders Tower Defense"? People seriously need to decide here.

 

Send me in NORMAL missions - not Endless content - and make me fight the Grineer special Black Hand Squads in Power Armour and over-shields, in fortified, secured Bases. Don't send me on exactly the same tileset, with exactly the same units with the same AI with just a bigger number over their heads. We won't need "health gating" we will just need better tactics and team coordination, and when that breaks down, we die.

 

EDIT:

 

I'm not saying "hey DE get off your butt and do it properly", I'm stating that it's pointless to keep saying the scaling is broken then use Endless as a reason. You all keep asking for more dps and shinier loot, and DE gives you some, then complain you need to go kill higher stuff for it not be a bore-fest. You are all scaling YOURSELVES out of content, and DE's fault is trying to please you people.

 

Look at how carefully they are with Archwing. That system should have been the standard overall, not what we have with normal Frames and gear now.

Edited April 15, 2015 by DSpite

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I do remember your name, and I do trust your judgement on things, but Raids are simply a "persistent, scripted Tactical Alert".

 

I have faced level 60-80 units and had forgotten to bring the "max DPS hose" and instead had my "reasonable DPS, fast reload/big magazine/Ammo Mutator gun" and remembered I had that one when a full clip to an enemy face didn't even take them to one-third of the bar.

 

I want to fight things closer to our levels but with HARDER to play SCENARIOS and abilities, not scaled "normal" enemies on empty levels.

 

We have guns, Frames and Abilities, I want to enjoy using all of them against varied enemies and levels that have some ebb and flow to them, not just Lemmings walking single file into my bullets that simply absorb more bullets as a clock ticks higher.

 

Level 30 units should be a threat. Level 40 units should be dangerous. Level 50 should be close to one-shots. Level 60's ... that's TWICE our level by the way, in other games this would actually mean something - should be Gods, and they should be RARE, yet here we are, facing level 300 Butchers, complaining the balance is off.

 

Take Skyrim. At level 1, I'm fighting bandits on the road armed with daggers, at level 50 I'm STILL finding bandits on the road, but now they are armed with Artifacts. I should be just finding bandits with some better gear, but get ambushed, or be dropped into a trap, or similar, not "Ha ah! Give us your money", "Hold on, if you need money, why are you holding an Obsidian Sword worth 50000 Gold Pieces?"

 

The bandits should scale a little, and other units replace them, like kill squads from a King you annoyed, or the Dragon Hatchlings of an old broodmother you killed for a village. THAT is scaling, not level 300 Rats.

 

Are we playing a "Ninjas FPS in space" or are we playing "Ninja Dungeon Defenders Tower Defense"? People seriously need to decide here.

 

Send me in NORMAL missions - not Endless content - and make me fight the Grineer special Black Hand Squads in Power Armour and over-shields, in fortified, secured Bases. Don't send me on exactly the same tileset, with exactly the same units with the same AI with just a bigger number over their heads. We won't need "health gating" we will just need better tactics and team coordination, and when that breaks down, we die.

 

EDIT:

 

I'm not saying "hey DE get off your butt and do it properly", I'm stating that it's pointless to keep saying the scaling is broken then use Endless as a reason. You all keep asking for more dps and shinier loot, and DE gives you some, then complain you need to go kill higher stuff for it not be a bore-fest. You are all scaling YOURSELVES out of content, and DE's fault is trying to please you people.

 

Look at how carefully they are with Archwing. That system should have been the standard overall, not what we have with normal Frames and gear now.

 

I agree with you that level 60 should be incredibly rare, and probably the highest levels possible. I also agree that endless scaling is broken and a cop-out for well designed enemies. However, this doesn't change that some enemies (the ones I already mentioned) are unfairly dangerous at the levels they exist at. This is beside the purpose of loot hunting, but instead rooted in typical action game concepts; players want to have time to avoid the most dangerous attacks. Hitscan fire with no tells isn't the way to do it.

 

Shield gating, while not fixing this, would at least help players have a chance (without the invulnerability period). Even if the game had better designed enemies, it would be more of an extra heart than anything else, not a bad thing.