Changing Pvp Rep Gain To The Original Syndicate Rep System, Also Decrease Affinity Gain From Ability Use.

[AlphaSierraMike]

In my eyes, the only reason why there is a rep cap in the first place was because we could exploit spawn mechanic and get massive amount of kills in one go. But in PvP, we can't, kills can only roll in so fast.

 

But at the same time, removing the cap and keeping the ratio of rep per affinity right now is way too quick for most of the rewards which are around 25k, and using the logic of rep caps, a thing that stops people gaining more rep than a certain amount, for me at MR17 with 18k, i can get the item that I want in less than 2 days or maybe even one session if I use a booster, a bit too quick.

 

So what I was thinking was to use a ratio similar to the one that was used in the earliest reputation system, where the ratio was very low, even the infamous Viver, which rolled in probably 20k kills could only get around 5k rep. Of course, the old rep ratio was pretty much a metre thick grind wall made out of lead, so maybe somewhere inbetween the current rep ratio and the original one, preferably leaning towards the original.

 

From a certain standpoint, this would seem to encourage people to play PvP more for rep instead of playing the game. But maybe I was the odd one out, when the Syndicates first came out, and I saw the amount of reps I get from each mission, I just left it on the sideline and leveled it passively, the Syndicate system that DE probably had in mind.

 

So that's what I'm betting on, the fact that the rep gain seems to be slow and endless would discourage people from playing PvP for rep and instead playing PvP because of the actual PvP.

 

In PvE's case, spawns can be exploited to gain kills at an insane rate, I think most player know that it's not really about the amount of affinity you get from each kill, it's about how many kills you get, like 2 low level mobs amount to more affinity than 1 high level mob, it's why Viver was so popular, because of PvE's uncontrollable mob spawns. But in PvP, spawns are restricted to 10 seconds, most kills have to be earned, not just press 4 to victory, ....except for press 4 to victory, and the fact that it's a human on the other side, that person's not going to walk in an obvious manner and let the player kill him like an AI. If a player has....somewhat earned a kill or played the objective, they should be rewarded instead of having an artificial limit blocking off progress.

 

Also, I reckon affinity should be decreased if ability is involved in the kill or the objective play, whether it is while Iron Skin is active, inside a Snow Globe, a Slash Dash combo, a Freeze combo, carrying Cephalon with Speed, Overload, etc. If a player wants to win, that's fine, they can use abilities, but the difficulty of earning a kill or capping the cephalon is a lot lower than without abilities, so lowering the affinity reward is the least a game can do. It's like Killstreaks in BO2, an attack dog only gets you 15 exp each kill instead of 100, because, let's be honest, you didn't do a thing to get that kill, it was a kill served to you on a silver plate.

 

Maybe have it in proportion to the amount of energy used, like a Shock combo would reduce affinity gain by 25%, killing someone by shooting through an Electric shield reduces affinity gain by 50%, because there's no way the other guy can fire back at you when there's a one way indestructible shield inbetween, Bullet Attractor reduces affinity gain by 75%, because, let's be honest, you barely had to aim at all, besides tagging the enemy at first, and no affinity gain from 4ths, because, really, most take less effort than Bullet Attractor and can get more kills.

Edited April 18, 2015 by AlphaSierraMike

[Trvldl]

I'm getting a thing too fast, lets slow down everyone!

You are rewarded for being good and playing smart, someone will struggle to reach his cap even with booster. And please, lets not encourage people to play pvp for rep even more.

[AlphaSierraMike]

You are rewarded for being good and playing smart, someone will struggle to reach his cap even with booster. And please, lets not encourage people to play pvp for rep even more.

That's just how i feel about it anyway, like for PvP games with an insane amount of exp to grind through, I hardly ever play those game solely for the purpose of leveling up that exp.

 

The thing is though, most of the time they don't have to play smart or barely earned the kill to be rewarded, the most rep farmers use the easiest methods of killing, and that's all they do, like doing nothing but coptering around collecting orbs and setting off 4ths, channeling and performing easy combos with damage multipliers, sitting at the back of the spawn with either a snow globe or an electric shield. That's not earning the bloody kill.

 

I still stand firm on the fact that kills involving energy should reward less, adding channeling to that list because I forgot that was a thing, until I got into an entire lobby full of Gram users just kept one shotting or two with copters, like. how is that fun? That guy didn't earn that kill, I can take that death, whatever, but he shouldn't be rewarded the same amount of rep/affinity as a person who actually had to work for the kill and aim, like with a Paris. Just as an example, a kill with a Paris having the same reward in affinity as a 4th is complete BS by my book.

[Trvldl]

Why not just balance damage sources instead of rep gain? Cheesy kills will stay if you only change rep amounts.

[AlphaSierraMike]

Why not just balance damage sources instead of rep gain? Cheesy kills will stay if you only change rep amounts.

Because the only reason why people go for easy kills, at the end of the day, is because they want the rep. If DE cuts down the amount of rep gained from the use of energy to get that kill, i reckon the use of abilities would be drastically decrease to the point where people won't use it unless it's necessary because of how little rep they get, and that's how energy should be used, as something that keeps you alive when the odds aren't in your favor. Like the way that people use Iron Skin, now that it decays after a period of time, people only use it when it's necessary, not just having it out all the time like before the nerf. I still hate the fact that there's a way to call in extra health out of nowhere though.

 

Also, with the Iron Skin example, that's not really a damage ability, but it still gives a player an edge in survival. And that's what makes earning the same affinity as the person without any assistance or advantages stupid. It's like pitting a runner against a cyclist in a race, the cyclist isn't going to get any high fives if he wins at the end like if the runner beat the cyclist, at best he should only get a pad on the back and the phrase "good work, you just beat a runner on a bicycle" in the most condescending tone, because he had a clear advantage.

 

I get what energy is meant to be in the overall arc of PvP, and to be fair, if the energy usage, the ease of use/giving the player an edge wise is nerfed to the point where getting a kill with the use of energy is as difficult as getting one without it, then why is energy even in the game?

[cary2010haha]

I said it 2 weeks before, now the exp to syn system just force us to do spawn kills

[Lynxy]

Because the only reason why people go for easy kills, at the end of the day, is because they want the rep.

Wrong. Unfortunately, a lot of people increase kill count only for self-affirmation. Sad, but true.

Or why do you think so many peoples use cheats in games like CS or something?

[AlphaSierraMike]

Wrong. Unfortunately, a lot of people increase kill count only for self-affirmation. Sad, but true.

Or why do you think so many peoples use cheats in games like CS or something?

There's that, but most of the lobbies that I've gone into, people explicitly say "I'm just here for rep" and sometimes even talk/brag about how much rep they got in that game.

 

Besides, this can be kind of like an experiment. If energy usage has gone down considerably because of the affinity decrease, that means most players are only playing PvP for rep, and that also needs to be changed, because as soon as they maxed out their rep reserve and brought all the items they want to collect, then PvP is just going to be a deadzone until new PvP items are pumped out, and that's not sustainable for the developers when they need to keep adding content to make people play, like, make PvP something that doesn't feel like a chore, but more like a fun activity, play PvP for the sake of playing PvP. Of course, that comes with the game being close to balanced to be fun, in my opinion, which it is not atm.

 

But if it doesn't go down, that means people go for those easy kill for stat padding, not too sure where to go from there, maybe decrease energy orb spawn rate.

[anamethisis]

It would be very nice if PVP rep could be gained through PvM. I hate pvp because when i tried it i am always on the loseing team getting low rep which is unfair for losing team.Both loseing team and winning team should both get the same rep reward its just unfair.If PVP rep where to be gained in Pvm would be cool but PVP rep can still be gained in pvp if one should choose that instead of PvM. Since PVP mods are now in PvM which is not fair since PVP rep currently is only gained through PVP which I hate that game mode. Not everyone is pro at PVP. I thought PVP mods where never gonna be in PvM. Im getting sick of your lies DE.

Edited November 10, 2015 by anamethisis

[Pythadragon]

Don't decrease the rep rewards.

 

Topping the leaderboard in an ffa match gives ~2k reputation for 7-10 minutes worth of gameplay. To hit a 20k cap, that's 10 matches, or 70 - 100 minute of gameplay (not including matchmaking time).

 

This is entirely reasonable for a player who tops leaderboards consistently.

 

But if you don't top the leaderboard (most players), you gain what? 500-700 rep? Suddenly that 70 - 100 minutes turns into 280 - 400 minutes of gameplay. Entirely unreasonable.

 

Rep rewards need to be boosted for the average player who doesn't win the majority of their matches.

[Skaleek]

Rep rewards need to be boosted for the average player who doesn't win the majority of their matches.

 

100% agree

[rockscl]

the right thing to do is increasing a lot the gains per minute played and reduce the gains per performance in order to stop rewarding people in a matchmaking that defines their performance before hand

[AlphaSierraMike]

Gad damn, this is still getting traffic?

 

Anyway, currently, I really don't give a toss about rep, hell I would rather have it removed just to make the match filled with less grinders and play with people that just want to have fun. I wouldn't even mind having a conclave rating restricted match where players basically can't fit any mods in, just the bare minimum and slag it out, as long as everyone's on the same playing field.

 

the right thing to do is increasing a lot the gains per minute played and reduce the gains per performance in order to stop rewarding people in a matchmaking that defines their performance before hand

 

A game that rewards people just because they're in the game is a complete joke. It's as pointless as participation awards, it doesn't mean jack and makes players even more entitled about getting stuff even though they performed poorly. You don't hand out prize money to the last place. Besides, many of the mods that do affect performance is dropped within PvP, most Teshin mods are just add ons that's nice to have, but it doesn't make or break a weapon, unless it's an experienced level weaponry mod like Broadhead Arrow or Lies In Wait, but in all honestly, new players shouldn't be using those in the first place. 

 

And damn, new players can easily access a few of the best weapons in PvP right now that works even with little to no mods. The MK-1 Braton is a barebones gun that works without anything extra and can outgun even a Braton P as long as they make use of that above average accuracy and stick to mid-long engagements, or go for headshots in close-mid. And the Furis, even after the nerf, it's still stupidly good for finishing off unshielded enemies. Right there, players can learn to play to the strength of the weapon, get good at it, and then when they're more experienced and comfortable with the game, and a few PvE mission in between, they can move on to try other weapons.

 

They should probably separate players by their MR rank though or even MR lock the conclave, when higher ranking players usually mean access to more weapons that works better with their play style and generally more experienced with the controls of the game. Yes the more experienced player have an advantage, but that's the point, for someone to overcome the difficulty and improve, and afterward get the reward they deserve. It's like if any other FPS unlocked everything for you as soon as you start the game just because you brought the game 6 months late from release. It doesn't make sense, and even with all the features unlock, the player is still most likely bad at the game, the weapons and mods won't help. The most the game could do is to group you with players in a similar experience level, ie skill based matchmaking.

 

But DE really can't risk separating the PvP base at the moment with how small the population is at currently, they don't want to alienate the newcomers that joined because of PvP. But whatevs, I'm just going to leave any match that's filled with rank < 5 or non-max ranked equipment, those are usually a clear sign of newcomer.

[rockscl]

A game that rewards people just because they're in the game is a complete joke. 

 

LoL has been doing that for 5 years with their Influence Points system, and seems to work fine until today

Edited November 11, 2015 by rockscl

[AlphaSierraMike]

LoL has been doing that for 5 years with their Influence Points system, and seems to work fine until today

Is Warframe LoL, or even close to a MOBA? They're two entirely different game operating off of two entirely different communities.

 

Besides, as much as teammates hate each other in a LoL game, it's a very team role heavy game, and you being in the game decides whether the match will go for 10 minutes because you're sitting in your base sucking your thumb, or an entire hour. 4v5 in a game like that is a huge disadvantage, unlike Warframe and a lot of shooters where one dude can solo an entire group with certain setups.

 

If a match goes on for even half an hour in LoL, it means either both teams are somewhat equal in skill and actively competing against each other, then hey, they deserve the extra IP. Either that or both sides agree to sit on their arse and wait, which is very unlikely when it's either bots or dudes that's aiming for ELO ranks. LoL players play to win the game, not to find the most efficient way to grind for basically credits, while Warframe players play more for the satisfaction of reaching a goal, whether that be 100% completion or maxing every weapon.

 

Compared to Warframe, a match can last for the entire duration not because both sides are competing to their fullest ability, but because there's so many cop out BS that makes avoiding death a child's play, and some maps are even designed to make it even easier with an ungodly amount of escape route. You can literally jump around the whole map and not get killed once when the TTK is as slow as it is now on most weapons compared to how fast people move. Is that related to skill? No, it's like calling someone crap for not being able to throw a paper ball into a basketball hoop during a typhoon. There are abilities like WoF, Hysteria, and Bullet Attractor that has little to no counter and downsides, the only reasonable response is to back away, creating a stalemate where nobody is doing jack. Is the time extension skill related? Of course not.

 

Also, LoL hands out free champions per week in rotation, making those credit even less important. At the same time, it's not like the game hands out loads of IP to the point where you can buy a champ per week or even month either, unless you play it every day.

 

While in Warframe, you can probably get a mod within a days or two on a MR15+ account. Yeah I realise that rep gain on low MR account is stupidly slow because DE artificially throttles rep gain with caps, but look at it this way, newer players should probably experience the PvE aspect first when it's the main selling point of the game, make some weapons and rank up their MR, before fully utilizing a feature that's pretty much a time sink for veterans or heading to a borderline broken optional mini game.

 

Besides, it's not like the mods in Teshin are next to impossible to reach like Tempo Royale being stuck between two massive RNG walls. Just put some effort into it.

[rockscl]

Is it close to a moba?, man that discussion is so old and never leads to anything but dejavus, so leave it at that.

 

You called the system a joke, and the most succesful e sport game in the world is based on that system, it has worked fine, and is being imitated by other big games too.

 

You think that people plays for goals, so why do we keep playing conclave after having everything from it?, well, that was your guess,and i disagree, i think people plays for fun, and some people finds fun in goals, thats my guess, but also im at least presenting facts by calling what the most massive games are doing, these games are currently extending that strategy to give you even more rewards if you play with your friends.

 

I think that DE has unintentionally stepped on their own toes by pleasing the elites that fill this forum, balancing rep gains until they were satisfied, in a system that is made to make em win, and seemingly never placing themselves on the shoes of what constitutes over 80% of every game´s community: not elites

 

ah, and about time extension to skill relation; i dont give a penny about that, if the worst player plays conclave for 2 hours he should receive a good amount of standing, the best player shouldnt get over 150% standing compared to the worst, thats what i think.

Edited November 14, 2015 by rockscl

[AlphaSierraMike]

When has E-sport ever been about the gaining in game currency? Pretty sure by that point, where there's prize money involved, the competitors would've practiced enough to collected everything they need for their specific play style. It would be straight up against your best interest to join a LoL tournament and rely on the free rotation.

 

Naturally, this is different from the currency you earn during the match, similar to Counter Strike's...thing... Still, that system and, from memory, LoL's match currency, is based on the players actions; kills, assists, objectives etc., not how long you're in the game for. Even if it's possible to earn money from doing nothing, like losing a round in CS, it still dwarfed by how much you can earn from playing the game, and the natural escalation of the match makes those amount barely noticeable. And again, losing one player in those games mean less chance of winning a round and less money at the end, giving players the incentive to play better.

 

Honestly I don't know the answer to goals, perhaps maybe higher KD or keeping reserves for when the next batch of content comes out. Fun is rather subjective, but from my own point of view, I don't see how the average PvPer consider using abilities that put the opposition in a disadvantage and basically having the game boil down to chance "fun". Like what else could I have done when the guy gets blessed by a Trin on the other side of the map. An uncontested kill is just boring, and getting killed with no chance of fighting back is just frustrating. Personally I find close games the most satisfying and fun.

 

Maybe I gave an impression that I absolutely hate free earnings. I wouldn't mind if the fixed earning was a small amount, but I just have a problem if it got even remotely close to what a decent player can earn within a match, which is the vibe I got from your first post of "increasing a lot the gains per minute played and reduce the gains per performance". Because at that point, the amount of effort a player has put in the game to improve does not match the reward, winning the game then has no weight when it only grants a small rep bonus, it's like a restaurant (player) asking for the same price for a coffee as a full meal with drink, and constantly saying the full meal is out of stock (not improving). The customer (game) would and should tell them to sod off and earn that $20, not condone the practice by buying the bloody coffee.

 

Maybe something like an oro worth of rep every 2 minutes in FFA, for example.