How About We Nerf Corrosive Projection?

[shut]

They can change armor all they want, as long as CP stays the way it is it will always be not only overpowered, but blatantly BROKEN. There's no point even caring about armor types and amounts if you can just bypass it completely.  

That's not how a balanced game works.

I guess Shield Disruption is 96% as overpowered as Corrosive Projection, then. It's totally absolutely not worth using any Aura other than Shield Disruption against Corpus because of how broken ignoring an enemy's defenses is.

(For clarity, this is sarcasm. 100% armor ignore will not magically make the game broken or trivially easy if the Grineer get a less stupidly tanky armor system. The fact that hardly anyone cares to use 96% Shield Ignore against Corpus is proof of that.)

[Demiax]

QUIT asking DE to nerf things in warframe. It's People like you who make the game so much less enjoyable (in one perspective.) Now, I know almost everyone who will comment or see this thread will agree with me on this simple point: No one wants to have more of a grind in warframe. (Since there is less armor the enemies will be harder to kill, therefore- increasing the grind, and/or amount of time it takes to grind/farm.

[inappropriatename5818]

I guess Shield Disruption is 96% as overpowered as Corrosive Projection, then. It's totally absolutely not worth using any Aura other than Shield Disruption against Corpus because of how broken ignoring an enemy's defenses is.

(For clarity, this is sarcasm. 100% armor ignore will not magically make the game broken or trivially easy if the Grineer get a less stupidly tanky armor system. The fact that hardly anyone cares to use 96% Shield Ignore against Corpus is proof of that.)

 

If mag didn't exist and if there was a point in playing endless Corpus missions it would be used a lot, but it wouldn't bypass the shield mechanic, because they would always have some shields, so you couldn't just use Viral and not care about half of the game mechanics.   

[GhostMelody]

Okay guys I placed accelerant on OP

FLAME THIS FOO!!!

WHY OP,WHY?!?!

[elspinaczio]

Well, maybe 100% armor removal from Grineer is too much, but then again how about their increased damage? They own hitscan weapons, and their aimbot maybe got nerfed a little with some major update (I think Eyes of blight), but still some cheated accuracy exists, so no matter what you do, the bullet will eventually find you. Now imagine this with your idea of nerfing corrosive aura and a swarming Grineers (Ballista my personal favourite).

 

I'm not saying you are completely wrong, but if you want their armor still be there in amount that is exceeding 50%, with their insane dmg at lvl 70+, you must be high.

[Fifield]

Capping it at 50% would make people hit a wall a level 90-100 for heavy units. Capping it at 75% would make the wall around level 140. Going to 140 is so far past the point where they just need to sneeze to kill a player.

 

Assuming we're talking about T4D, the wall is already at 120-140.

 

1) That's your opinion. It still leaves 2 slots mandated for 2 CP. Diversity will just means energy siphon or rifle amp, there is always an order of value, and nerfing one will just roll people down the list.

 

Energy Siphon is optional because you can have a Trinity or energy restores.  Rifle Amp kinda sucks.  By making 2 non-CP slots, we really open up aura possibilities.

 

3) Not really. It would still make up to level 100 fairly easy, and only people going past 130 would notice the wall if capped at 75%.Plot armor scaling with 75% off of base in a graph if you think I am wrong.

 

I don't even know what you're talking about.  The wall between Interception, Defence, Survival camp & Survival no-camp is completely different.

This is the bottom line about CP nerfs and enemy scaling:

People notice enemies getting more difficult.  They'll get more difficult a lot faster if CP is capped.  That's a gameplay change that players might not like.  Likewise. if enemies don't scale as quickly, missions will drag out unnecessarily.

@taiiat, thanks for the link but you talk so much BS in the rest of that comment, it doesn't warrant a proper response.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Fifield

[woah_dude]

 if i have to waste 1/4 of end-game tier weapon clip to kill a unit, there is a problem. If that unit at the same time travels under a bubble of nullifier, i have to waste 1/3 of my magazine or smtn to kill 2 units. Usually, monsters come in packs, sometimes its 2 or 3 nullifiers in 1 place converging. Now, we remove CP and i have to waste HALF of my magazine to kill a unit and there are 5-6 directions from which enemies are constantly pouring in. How many ammo restores do  i have to waste for 20 waves of T4D to get 3 formas and Dakra Prime blueprint? How profitable and "rewarding" of an experience that is?

 

 

Theoretically, i can see from where u r going OP and whats ur "argument" is, but realistically, by the virtue "annoying S#&$" that was added to create "difficulty" (more annoying S#&$ really in the end, very little challenge), CP in its current form is absolutely necessary. 

 

 

DE can try to balance things out and create a real "difficulty scaling", but it requires scalpel like methods and knowledge what the hell they are doing and how it will affect game play, so far i haven't seen much of that really, more of band aids solutions, which become somewhat permanent "Accepted" methods of operation. 

 

 

Basically if DE wants to remove CP, they would have to revisit and rework a S#&$ ton of content and revisit their approach to "rewards" and "less grindiness", i've yet to see that part happening either.

[HandsomeSorcerer]

More people campaigning to ruin this game. Talk about nerfing the ridiculous units, not workarounds to beat them,

 

I guess the community here is $&*&*#(%&.

[Seanjuju]

Infinite scaling is a terrible system to begin with. CP is only a symptom of a larger issue. 

[shut]

If mag didn't exist and if there was a point in playing endless Corpus missions it would be used a lot, but it wouldn't bypass the shield mechanic, because they would always have some shields, so you couldn't just use Viral and not care about half of the game mechanics.

You don't need Mag to play Corpus missions. Neither Mag nor Shield Disruption are needed at all to play high-level Corpus missions because although they make it easier, everything dies just fine without them.

And are you seriously telling me that enemies having 4% of their shield value is different at all from having all the shields wiped completely? No matter how you build your weapon, any shields they have will fall apart if you do so much as breathe on them. It's nowhere near the same as enemies having a small amount of remaining armor, which applies a nasty reduction to ALL of the enemy's health.

I keep seeing "but there's no point in doing high-level corpus mission so it's ok for them to be weak" being brought up over and over in this thread. By that logic, Grineer should be pathetically weak as well.

A faction being straight-up weaker than another is not okay. The fact that non-Void factions don't give good rewards is a PROBLEM; it's not something that we should just accept and use as an excuse to defend broken stat scaling on Grineer.

[LazyKnight]

Assuming we're talking about T4D, the wall is already at 120-140.

 

You're talking about sheer health scaling being a wall for level 120-140, right?. Even a small amount of armor drastically increase ehp. I was not referencing to a corrupted NPC, just a normal Grineer heavy gunner; The void has rather high health pools on its NPC and even if they had just 25% of their base armor you would be shooting a bullet sponge wall that would refuse to die far sooner than you would believe.

 

current value=Base Health × ( 1 + ( Current Level - Base Level )^2 × 0.015 )

current value=Base Armor × ( 1 + ( Current Level - Base Level )^1.75 × 0.005 )

 

percentage modifier for armor=1+(current armor/300)

 

Effective health = (modified current health* incoming damage modifier)

 

A corrupted heavy gunner has 700 health, 500 armor and a base level of 8. If that gunner has ANY armor going past level 60, it's going to mushroom cloud its health. 

 

 

Energy Siphon is optional because you can have a Trinity or energy restores.  Rifle Amp kinda sucks.  By making 2 non-CP slots, we really open up aura possibilities.

 

I do not care about that broken trinity and broken energy vampire. It does not open up possibility because the health ones only work when the NPC are not 1-shooting you and the ammo ones are supplanted by an ammo pack; and there is never a reason to use any of them, unless you're broke.

 

Ammo is moot, health bonus or regeneration does nothing; The only auras worth considering other than CP are :Rifle amp, Steel charge and energy siphon. Using Steel charge only works for two Warframes. 

 

 

 

I don't even know what you're talking about.  The wall between Interception, Defence, Survival camp & Survival no-camp is completely different.

Honestly, if you do not understand how exponential scaling works, stop posting in this topic. The wall is based solely on two factor: the NPC's current health and current armor.

 

 

People notice enemies getting more difficult.  They'll get more difficult a lot faster if CP is capped.  That's a gameplay change that players might not like.  Likewise. if enemies don't scale as quickly, missions will drag out unnecessarily.

 

I have never been in favor of DE's armor algorithm. It's not something that should be in game with NPC that go higher than level 40. It's simply not balanced for anything going past that range yet DE has raids level 80. This makes CP mandatory because not using it makes the NPC have up to 15x as much ehp. 

 

I want Corrosive Projection destroyed and armor fixed. The game is not balanced whatsoever for armor to be completely removed. Grineer and Corrupted go from being the strongest faction to one of the weakest simply because people stacked auras.

 

Edit: Fixed copy paste messup

Edited April 22, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Fifield]

Ammo is moot, health bonus or regeneration does nothing; The only auras worth considering other than CP are :Rifle amp, Steel charge and energy siphon. Using Steel charge only works for two Warframes.

 

Yes the others are a long way behind, which is a very good reason to look at nerfing CP.  Still, a choice of 3 plus rejuv plus ammo is a lot better than no choice (CP).  And DE would be likely to buff the others soon after.

 

Honestly, if you do not understand how exponential scaling works, stop posting in this topic. The wall is based solely on two factor: the NPC's current health and current armor.

 

Obviously, you're not talking about the same wall everyone else is then.  Wall = level of difficulty you cannot go past.

The difficulty depends on a lot more things than EHP.  It depends on how many directions the enemies come from, your protection (Frost Globe or whatever), how many teammates are around to revive you (not to mention enemy dmg, Bombards, Nullifiers etc).

 

I have never been in favor of DE's armor algorithm. It's not something that should be in game with NPC that go higher than level 40. It's simply not balanced for anything going past that range yet DE has raids level 80. This makes CP mandatory because not using it makes the NPC have up to 15x as much ehp.

 

You can just use the corrosive damage type.

Again, it's all about in-game difficulty scaling over time.  Does it get more difficult too quickly or too slowly?

I think it's about right. Could maybe be 20% slower, wouldn't mind if it was 20% faster.  For me then, CP should only be nerfed if armor scaling is equally nerfed.  I'd rather start with enemies at level 60 than have scaling go faster or much slower.

[LazyKnight]

Obviously, you're not talking about the same wall everyone else is then.  Wall = level of difficulty you cannot go past.

NPC that go past level 80 have their damage scales far past what is needed to ohko you. You defined the old wall as 140, but effectively there is zero game-play difference besides how long an NPC takes to kill when dealing with level 80s. Past 80, getting hit stops being a valid game-play option. There is no skill function past level 80. If you can deal with level 80s, you can deal with level 180. If you have to stop at level 140 with corrosive projection, then that your NPC's TTK wall 

Edited April 21, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Fifield]

If you can deal with level 80s, you can deal with level 180.

 

No, for all the reasons already stated plus:

-  If it takes 2 more seconds to kill an enemy, that's 2 more seconds he has to kill you.

-  After wave 50 in T4D, grineer take a really long time to kill.  Killing them all before they can melee your pod to zero (even when disarmed and slowed) becomes a key problem.

 

It's not just about one-hit kills since getting to high levels rely on crowd control abilities.

[Gilmaesh]

 Nerf armor, downscale enemies, I don't care what they do in exchange, as long as they fix this broken aura.    

 

^

this

[-OMS-Spriggan.EX]

I disagree completely with your idea.

 

Should first make new ideas of how to make armor scaling viable, and then maybe we can see about CP´s or no.

 

Corpus and Infested do not have that scaling problem even during their scaling: Corpus on shield/Infested on your own resistance flesh.

 

For some reason, armor from grieener scales in a monstruous way.

 

Peace! o/

[Deviantis]

Auras in general are just whack, before the cp Nerf cry there was the e siphon nerf cry...

The best thing is to just double aura effectiveness and remove stacking, maybe we'll actually see some neat combinations then.

$0.02

Edited April 22, 2015 by Deviantis

[(PSN)Mazda_07_]

......... No...

[aerosoul1337]

Armor scale formula need to be toned down a bit actually.

A level 90+ gunner has about 8000+ armor.

And a lot of eximus have innate resistance against all type of damage, including finisher damage.

[Lorthos_Mornin]

Frankly, I don't see your point.  Removing CP only removes a method to make the game easier.  Will people still go long? Yes.  I went with a group on the Phoenix Interception that went without 4xCP.  Guess what? We still beat it, but it took at least twice as long as the run I did with a group that used it, and what's more, a lot of people went on that mission solo because they were uninterested in dragging a lot of inexperienced players with them even if they had 4xCP.  It's not necessary it just reduces the risk of human error and thus the risk of mission failure by allowing faster kills.  It also reduces the time I have sit in a mission and shoot the same enemy.  Does it make the game too easy? No, not for endless content, which, in my opinion, is what it is for.  It simply allows a gear coordinated team to maximize their damage by simplifying how they need to mod their weapons.

 

"Game is too easy" is always going to be a complaint, just like "game is too hard", and I really don't see cp playing a huge part in that.  The game is "too easy" for some people for a huge variety of reasons mostly having to do with experience, knowledge, and superior reaction times, and not solely because they have access to 4xCP.  So you're not going to see any less nerf x threads if cp is removed, for these people and me cp is a single weapon in an entire arsenal.  All it does is reduce the annoyance of having shoot through absurd ehp in comparison with the other factions. The people that want this game harder appear as though they will only to be satisfied when we're reduced to agents of the lotus with no powers and an mk1-braton, because to them powers, mods, and most of the things that make warframe, well, warframe, are op.

 

It is in no way the only viable late game aura either.  It is simply the one that works best if the entire team is using it.  I haven't stopped to ask or check in every mission I've ever run against armored enemies, but it's my opinion that most people don't use it unless they are on a coordinated team.  This is the way I use it as well.  These same teams can just as easily not use it and still go as far, just not as fast, and with significantly more frustration.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Lorthos_Mornin

[letir]

Fix armor first.

[6KIRA9]

with 1 CP i do good till 80 mins in void survival, with paris prime and viral build (yeah not corrossive and 1 CP) if it's changed maybe we'll have to take 2 CPs then giving less opttions for other mods (mostly siphons tho)

 

but i'm agree with this, i can't find a survival i can enjoy cuz all want 4 CPs, Vauby, Nova, Nekros and GP Mag, sit in a tunel, and keep shooting -__- SO FKING BORING !! i tried this way tho but my max was 50 min, when i don't camp i can reach 80 min like nothing... however i'm not sure this will makee guys not camp but may force them to find a new way (hopefully something we can enjoy)

[bluntpuffer]

The way I see it, CP isn't overpowered at all. Grineer armor scaling is just out of whack, and CP is our only way around it.

[Azamagon]

I kind of agreed with the OP, but from multiple point of views:

 

1) It bypasses an enemy defense system ENTIRELY, which also looks visually wrong (as mentioned by the OP already)

2) Fully stacked, it makes damagetypes that are good against armor (Corrosive, Radiation, Puncture) quite pointless.

3) It is one of the reasons why we don't have much aura variety currently, in particular on higher Grineer/Corrupted levels (yes, that's also a flaw of the armor scaling in itself, but that's actually a sort of seperate issue)

4) The difference of auras when playing solo contra online is WAY too big (One energy siphon vs Four of them... it's a HUGE difference, going from quite nice to absolutely brokenly good)

 

All those thoughts considered at once, I have a more elegant way to fix ALL of these things:

Make stacking aura bonuses have diminishing returns!

Say, for each additional aura of the same type, its added bonus gets halfed. This means that you can never get more than DOUBLE the amount of the basevalue. Take Corrosive Projection for example with its 30% basevalue. Next stack gives 15%. And the next 7.5%. And the next 3.75%. All together would be 56,25% armor reduction. With this system, no matter how many players would be allowed in a mission in the future, it can NEVER reach 60%, the doubled basevalue!

AURA STACKING FIXED FOR ALL FUTURE!

 

Adding diminishing returns like this actually has many good upsides to it:

* This allows us to BUFF most of the auras, especially the weaker ones, without breaking them online because you know they will never become more than ~doubled anyway!

* It makes the power-difference between a solo aura and online auras stacked not feel too different.

* It promotes the use of more varied auras, while stacking is still possible (albeit weaker)

* Corrosive Projection (and many other powerful ones) can still remain as a powerful aura (even buffing CP to 36/40% is possible, although not necessary of course), without ever making Corrosive, Radiation and Puncture damagetypes obsolete either!

 

Yes, armor scaling needs a look at ON TOP of this. But the OP still has a great point regardless, even though I feel the problem is not the mod itself, but the AURA STACKING

[Towermice]

It doesn't make the game too easy, the game is too easy already. That's why DE is releasing all these gimmicky, boring enemies with invincibility like all the revamped bosses and some enemies. Players **** out too much damage and a corrosive projection nerf isn't going to change that..