The 'tenno Are Energy' Theory Is Busted

[SilentMobius]

"Hesitation was building on Menz's face. I had command authority but if he balked, the soldiers would follow him. I needed to force his support, "If you were Tenno, there'd be no question."
 
"The betrayers..." he stopped himself."
 
What exactly was the consensus reached about this? I sort of missed that whole thing - but it strikes me as odd that the Lorist seems to be pulling a "a Tenno would follow my orders" card when they seem to have already betrayed the Empire (and either directly or indirectly contributed to this Infested outbreak).

IMHO none of those people were Orokin, the Lorist wasn't pointing out that a Tenno would follow orders, more that a Tenno would do what needed to be done to save a human, impacting the pride of Menz. While Menz automatically thought of the Tenno as enemies of the Empire and didn't like to be compared to them. It was getting Menz rolled up so he would do something reckless Edited June 25, 2015 by SilentMobius

[Institute-Marksman]

Yes, that theory is busted. We are malformed humans with magical 'Void' powers strapped in a suit made from corrupted flesh. We can simply wear another corrupted flesh suit to enhance our powers otherwise.

Frankly, the whole thing of 'beings made up of energy' is incredibly outdated, since it's been around since the first Star Trek(note: that's 35 years ago!).

[arch111]

Tenno killed infested allies with the ether swords, this to me is connected to this time.

Sentient War start

Grineer Soldier

Infested biosoldiers

Corrupted soldiers

Lephantis

Zero Tech soldiers.

Tenno trained in the Conclave

Primes are built and Tenno are deployed in the war

Sentient War End

Tenno Betrayal/Rebellion start

Grineer Uprising

The great Plague

The Collapse of the Empire

Infestation eradicated

Tenno Cryo ...

Did I miss anything?

Seems the orokin were made up of groups.

Emperors

Executors of the Congress

Dax

Guardians

Lorists

Grineer workers

Moa and other robotics

Biosoldiers

Kubrows, Catbrows & other animals

Orokin citizens, belonging to Corpus.

Orokin Nobles : Teshin, Lotus.

Cephalons.

Sentinels.

Tenno.

Pretty big bunch that.

[SilentMobius]

Tenno killed infested allies with the ether swords, this to me is connected to this time.

Sentient War start

Grineer Soldier

Infested biosoldiers

Corrupted soldiers

Lephantis

Zero Tech soldiers.

 

I'm still unconvinced the Infested (as a group) existed during the old War. Lephantis _only_ was stated to have been "created to fight in the old war" nothing about the rest of the infestation and nothing about anything infested ever being deployed anywhere. In fact no mention of infestation in anything we know about the Old-War period.

 

Whereas we have the Mag Prime codex where a Zero-tech soldier views a Mag-wearing Tenno at strange and horrific. Not something that makes any sense if the previous "footsoldiers" were body-horror monstrosities.

 

No, IMHO if the infested were ever deployed during the Old War then they would have left a huge impact, such that their existence would have been mentioned or alluded to somewhere in the information we have. 

 

IMHO the Infestation-as-we-know-it all came from Lephantis, after the fall of the Orokin, even if the root Technocyte virus existed before that point.

[Prany]

 

Perhaps a bit off-topic from what's intentioned, but I'm re-reading the C. Ancient lore and a particular bit struck me as odd: 

 

"Hesitation was building on Menz's face. I had command authority but if he balked, the soldiers would follow him. I needed to force his support, "If you were Tenno, there'd be no question."

 

"The betrayers..." he stopped himself."

 

What exactly was the consensus reached about this? I sort of missed that whole thing - but it strikes me as odd that the Lorist seems to be pulling a "a Tenno would follow my orders" card when they seem to have already betrayed the Empire (and either directly or indirectly contributed to this Infested outbreak).

 

I read it simply as lorist calling Menz a chicken.

[arch111]

Ah, let me clarify.

Biosoldiers were clean, proper soldiers. Not the mutant infested.

Think the Rhino Prime Codex. Think a big human made for war, a Hulk supersoldier.

Think animals bred for war.

The infestation was a thing, maby not the Infested because they became that after assimiliating things like Lorists first.

I allso think the fact that the Orokin called these things Gholems is a hint that they were engineered "beasts" under control. By Neural Harness, Lorian control or other means of domination.

A Gholem is traditionally a created inanimate object with a scroll of magic in its head. This gives it the power and allso grants control to the mage who created the Gholem.

See where I am going with this?

Edited June 25, 2015 by arch111

[Urlan]

While I would have liked to believe that the Orokin were trying to create subjects like Hayden from DarkSector, officially making DarkSector non-Canon throws a wrench at that. The Rhino Codex creature is not a Rhino warframe or a tenno inside, it is an infested human subject, infected with technocyte to study the effects and attempt to create stable bioweapons to fight the Sentients. It escaped, killing its way through the facility until the researchers it was following entered a room that contained the Children of Zariman, the future Tenno to later be equipped with armor made from the test subjects. The Children's presence calmed the beast and delighted the researchers - this would allow the infested mutations and Children to be used and controlled.

 

The Grineer are the clean biologically created clone soldiers. It is the degradation of the Grineer over cloning that has resulted in that group's twisted state. Though it is quite possible that the Orokin introduced such instability as a control for clone workers and soldiers. Grineer were armed with low tech ballistic weapons as they are now and sent against the Sentients probably in human wave tactics, then infested infection could be used to create additional waves from the remaining biomass. What I wonder, is if the infested patient zeroes started whispering yet of immortality to their Orokin handlers.

 

J3 Golem and Lephantis are interesting  as both are bioweapons created during the tale end of the Great War, in fact Lephantis may perhaps never have been used. The J3 Golem can be interpreted as being a reference to the Hebrew golem as a creature made of clay with no will given outside purpose by Holy Will or the words of its controllers. Lephantis itself could just be an awesome reference to elephants but I would like to think it refers to the old Roman meaning of a substance inbetween stone and clay. Basically, an improvement to the Golem class biocreatures. It would make sense if the many infested were animalistic for the most part as the Orokin wanted weapons of war and not citizens or such, but something would have to direct those creatures. I feel that patient zero subjects would act as a more stable commander for the swarm under its control but as the biomass increased, larger creatures and tougher strains were required thus needing J3 Golems and eventually Lephantis. I feel that Phorid and now Mutalist Alad V are examples of these patient zero type infested leaders. Phorid manifesting from a victim of the infection once the infested have reached a certain stage of overgrowth in its enviroment. Mutalist Alad V seems to have just been the first of that infested strain with a will to keep his mind so far, but it could also be that it his place currently in the mutalist infestation to direct it. These creatures were designed with being weapons in mind, it makes sense that the Orokin would grow a leader to continue the mission if one was eliminated or not available.

 

No idea about the Lorists honestly. Like I have said before, them becoming Ancient Healers breaks what we have read about Ancients in the past. Though sadly, I haven't been able to get any screen-captures of those Lotus descriptions of the ancients; it is still referenced in many places on the wiki and has even made its way the the warframe section of TV Tropes for the ancients. Still Lorist, as a word, is a an odd name for a genetically created and cybernetically altered healer caste, wouldn't make more sense for an oral historian? Maybe its a reference to Loristan blood pressure observation tools and medicine. Still don't understand their method of healing others, maybe a hookup similar to our warframes picking each other up or a stripped down version of Oberon or Trinity's Blessing? I think Electromagnetic Brainwaves were brought up as a possible explaination but in my understanding, Sonic Resonance Healing used by cats (when they purr to stimulate bone and muscle tissue healing) and other animals has both observable realworld effects and is currently reproduceable while electromagnetic brainwave based healing is still hypothetical in nature. It is theorized that some deepsea creatures might have strong enough electromagnetic fields though to maintain such a metabolism draining technique though.

 

Then we get Tenno, later known by the Grineer nickname, SKOOM! or scum, we seem to be humans like the Children of Zariman exposed to unshielded void energy so we give off a constant void signature. Trained into a warrior caste to follow a strict warrior culture of balance by our handler, the Lotus, we are armored in biomechanical suits possibly harvested or based off of infested mutations and exoskeletons and inheriting their look either from an earlier warrior caste or possibly the original infested test subjects themselves. We were trained in utilizing the suits or warframes as they became known and channeling our void emanations into the suits for devestating abilities along side the use of relatively low tech - to the Orokin - blades and guns. Eventually, we caused the downfall of the Orokin Empire after pushing back the Sentients. Whether through betrayal of and execution of the Orokin Emperors or maintaining balance once more we don't know. All that we do know, is that after the defeat of the Sentients and the closing of the the Pluto Outer Terminus from which the Sentients came, the Orokin Empire self-destructed and we entered cyrosleep while the Grineer tried to rule in the Orokin Emperor's stead. That is, until we started to wake back up.

 

We can't just destroy the Grineer, Infested, or Corpus and make the solar system a safe place; we need them like they need us to help fight the possible future threat of the Sentients and other possible gobbstopping horrors from beyond the stars. Three of us, the Tenno, Grineer, and Infested were designed to face the Sentients while the Corpus seem to be survivors of the Orokin citizenry and low level castes from Orokin society that have started anew as a profit focused merchant cult that both idealizes profit and orokin technology. Were the Sentients robots from beyond our solar system? Don't know, they do seem to have a lot of drone robots in the Tombs of the Sentients trailer, but those could be more of the high tech robots that the Sentients were said to be capable of turning against their creators. We also have hints that the Sentients may have a method of revival similar to a Tenno utilizing Oro, a golden energy that when extinguished, prevents such creatures from shrugging off things like death. We represent balance and stability for the Origin System even if we don't make it a happier Grineer and Infested-less place. We work toward the Lotus's will and to rebuild our equipment and original power base.

[Morec0]

IMHO none of those people were Orokin, the Lorist wasn't pointing out that a Tenno would follow orders, more that a Tenno would do what needed to be done to save a human, impacting the pride of Menz. While Menz automatically thought of the Tenno as enemies of the Empire and didn't like to be compared to them. It was getting Menz rolled up so he would do something reckless

 

Well no, not Orokin - at least certainly not the Lorist, she's... well, Lorist. One of those specially engineered slave races I mentioned earlier - Dax Menz MIGHT be one as well, but Dax may simply have been a title. 

 

 

I'm still unconvinced the Infested (as a group) existed during the old War. Lephantis _only_ was stated to have been "created to fight in the old war" nothing about the rest of the infestation and nothing about anything infested ever being deployed anywhere. In fact no mention of infestation in anything we know about the Old-War period.

 

Whereas we have the Mag Prime codex where a Zero-tech soldier views a Mag-wearing Tenno at strange and horrific. Not something that makes any sense if the previous "footsoldiers" were body-horror monstrosities.

 

No, IMHO if the infested were ever deployed during the Old War then they would have left a huge impact, such that their existence would have been mentioned or alluded to somewhere in the information we have. 

 

IMHO the Infestation-as-we-know-it all came from Lephantis, after the fall of the Orokin, even if the root Technocyte virus existed before that point.

 

There's the stuff from the Evicerator Synthesis - the Infested attacking them after the destruction of the Executors. There's a little bit of a uncertainty in the timeline about that, but especially given that in the Corrupted Ancient Synthesis we see the Infested widespread and the Tenno referred to as betrayers, I thin the Evicerator one takes place AFTER the Tenno attack and killed destabalized the Empire.

 

Of course, we DO have SOME hints towards it - if one wants to take into consideration Lephantis was said to be "created" and the creature in the RPC was "crafted" seemingly in a time before the Tenno were deployed....

[Morec0]

Clone?

 

Build from infested flesh? Last ask cephalon said that foundary can build from infested flesh.

 

The cloning's impossible at a foundry.

 

As for the Infested flesh bit, that's more viable... an for some reason this morning makes me think: "himmmmm, maybe."

 

Consider this train of logic:

 

The Tenno return from the Void - bodies ruined by it, but soul (or consciousness or whatever) supercharged with the energy the Orokin wanted to study. They're kept on ice, unable to act, but unable to truly die as their destroyed bodies want to/may already have done because of said Void exposure (even though Kaleen never mentioned anything like that, it's possible she felt the need to comfort them because they were in pain).

 

Enter the RPC, Davis lures the creature to the "morgue" (though it very well may have been, if the Orokin mistook "the ones from the Zariman" for bein' dead). One of the children's souls (or consciousness or whatever) hops into the body, stops it, is shocked that he is in a form that's not been totally destroyed.

 

Orokin experiment with this goes on, then they weaponize them against the Sentients - building a metal frame around these Infested bodies to act as armor, while the Tenno are free to move between them as they do in the modern day. ect. ect.

 

 

It becomes a bit more "Meeeeeh" when one considers the "we found nothing to explain their powers" story Vor gives us from Arid Fear, but that's always been a bit of a hickup.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

-snip-

Now it sounds like we're demons, possessing the frames xD

[Avenwing]

The cloning's impossible at a foundry.

 

As for the Infested flesh bit, that's more viable... an for some reason this morning makes me think: "himmmmm, maybe."

 

Consider this train of logic:

 

The Tenno return from the Void - bodies ruined by it, but soul (or consciousness or whatever) supercharged with the energy the Orokin wanted to study. They're kept on ice, unable to act, but unable to truly die as their destroyed bodies want to/may already have done because of said Void exposure (even though Kaleen never mentioned anything like that, it's possible she felt the need to comfort them because they were in pain).

 

Enter the RPC, Davis lures the creature to the "morgue" (though it very well may have been, if the Orokin mistook "the ones from the Zariman" for bein' dead). One of the children's souls (or consciousness or whatever) hops into the body, stops it, is shocked that he is in a form that's not been totally destroyed.

 

Orokin experiment with this goes on, then they weaponize them against the Sentients - building a metal frame around these Infested bodies to act as armor, while the Tenno are free to move between them as they do in the modern day. ect. ect.

 

 

It becomes a bit more "Meeeeeh" when one considers the "we found nothing to explain their powers" story Vor gives us from Arid Fear, but that's always been a bit of a hickup.

Excalibur was the first though, according to his codex.

[Jakcal]

Excalibur was the first though, according to his codex.

Maybe he was the first working warframe.

[Morec0]

Excalibur was the first though, according to his codex.

 

Aye, the first to be made a true Warframe - the first to be fully completed and utilized for the purpose of the Old War.

 

No matter which way we read the RPC, that interpretation has to be consider the most valid - imo - as otherwise that thing will always have come first.

 

 

Now it sounds like we're demons, possessing the frames xD

 

It fits with one of our nicknames, and personally I think it to be one of the cooler possibilities. It definitely cements the Tenno as being something that had been fundamentally changed by the Void, not even human anymore, not even physical - the stuff of nightmares.

[SilverBones]

 

Perhaps a bit off-topic from what's intentioned, but I'm re-reading the C. Ancient lore and a particular bit struck me as odd: 

 

"Hesitation was building on Menz's face. I had command authority but if he balked, the soldiers would follow him. I needed to force his support, "If you were Tenno, there'd be no question."

 

"The betrayers..." he stopped himself."

 

What exactly was the consensus reached about this? I sort of missed that whole thing - but it strikes me as odd that the Lorist seems to be pulling a "a Tenno would follow my orders" card when they seem to have already betrayed the Empire (and either directly or indirectly contributed to this Infested outbreak).

 

 

I think it is more to poke at Menz's courage. Tenno were fearless and faced the Infested without pause. This is no different than normal manipulation and getting Menz to do as the Lorist wanted. I think it is less about saying that a Tenno would obey, and more about how a Tenno would not chicken out, making Menz want to push forward on his own.

 

The father in the Anti Moa Synthesis, after the son asks "What about your corpus, don't you miss them? Your father?". The father immediately replies: "Orokin didn't have parents like you do, it was done differently then."

 

Which leads me to a few conclusions - Orokin used test tube cloning for reproduction, Orokin were human (as these are most certainly the starting-most members of the Corpus, who are human), and the Orokin refers to anyone in the Empire who wasn't a role race (which I'd say includes these Lorist figures as well as the Grineer).

 

Remember that the Vor refers to his cloned soldiers as his children. He wants to be known as a good Father / Grandfather, even though it is all through the process of cloning. The term Father can also be used to apply to someone in the fatherly role, even though they had no genetic input into the creation of the child (step-father and the title of Father in Christianity for example). In this world, the terms seems more of designation than a natural sign of paternity, although there is some link there, perhaps through genetic donation in the cloning process.

 

Oddly as well, they refer to the 'family unit' as 'Corpus' which basically means 'body'. A body of things can be anything here. A body of water is a good example. Perhaps that is what these people (potentially proto-Corpus) called their family, and that then grew into a term used by the collective as a whole? The name of the trade-cult that came from these ancestors.

 

All I am saying is that we cannot make assumptions on their reproductive cycle of the storytellers, let alone the Orokin before them. Remember, there is no indication that the Orokin were anything other than highly technical humans. The term Orokin could easily represent a social class or even members of a Corporation for all we know (granted, that's unlikely though).

 

Now it sounds like we're demons, possessing the frames xD

 

It fits with one of our nicknames, and personally I think it to be one of the cooler possibilities. It definitely cements the Tenno as being something that had been fundamentally changed by the Void, not even human anymore, not even physical - the stuff of nightmares.

 

Tenno are also referred to as 'Demons of the Void' for a reason I feel.

 

What do demons do? They possess!

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

 

It fits with one of our nicknames, and personally I think it to be one of the cooler possibilities. It definitely cements the Tenno as being something that had been fundamentally changed by the Void, not even human anymore, not even physical - the stuff of nightmares.

Ya know who else was called 'Demon'? ;D

 

[EmptyDevil]

Ya know who else was called 'Demon'? ;D

 

 

This is true iirc. 

[Morec0]

Ya know who else was called 'Demon'? ;D

 

 

True. But different universe, which faced off against a what was basically a religious cult of aliens to justify that nickname for him. The Corpus and Grineer seem to lack similar convictions to provide such a background, so the nickname may have other sources.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

True. But different universe, which faced off against a what was basically a religious cult of aliens to justify that nickname for him. The Corpus and Grineer seem to lack similar convictions to provide such a background, so the nickname may have other sources.

Shhh! Don't kill my fun!

[EmptyDevil]

True. But different universe, which faced off against a what was basically a religious cult of aliens to justify that nickname for him. The Corpus and Grineer seem to lack similar convictions to provide such a background, so the nickname may have other sources.

 

I just think of it as something you call a seemingly unkillable(or very hard to kill) and frightening person/force. Both the Spartans and Tenno are unnaturally strong in comparison to normal personnel.

[Morec0]

I just think of it as something you call a seemingly unkillable(or very hard to kill) and frightening person/force. Both the Spartans and Tenno are unnaturally strong in comparison to normal personnel.

 

Also utterly viable - forgot about the whole Oro thing.

 

 

 

I think it is more to poke at Menz's courage. Tenno were fearless and faced the Infested without pause. This is no different than normal manipulation and getting Menz to do as the Lorist wanted. I think it is less about saying that a Tenno would obey, and more about how a Tenno would not chicken out, making Menz want to push forward on his own.

 

 

Remember that the Vor refers to his cloned soldiers as his children. He wants to be known as a good Father / Grandfather, even though it is all through the process of cloning. The term Father can also be used to apply to someone in the fatherly role, even though they had no genetic input into the creation of the child (step-father and the title of Father in Christianity for example). In this world, the terms seems more of designation than a natural sign of paternity, although there is some link there, perhaps through genetic donation in the cloning process.

 

Oddly as well, they refer to the 'family unit' as 'Corpus' which basically means 'body'. A body of things can be anything here. A body of water is a good example. Perhaps that is what these people (potentially proto-Corpus) called their family, and that then grew into a term used by the collective as a whole? The name of the trade-cult that came from these ancestors.

 

All I am saying is that we cannot make assumptions on their reproductive cycle of the storytellers, let alone the Orokin before them. Remember, there is no indication that the Orokin were anything other than highly technical humans. The term Orokin could easily represent a social class or even members of a Corporation for all we know (granted, that's unlikely though).

 

Makes sense.

 

And good point on the parental details, I feel like the talk of genetic designers and the Lorist's description of those she is often called upon to help pushes towards an idea of Orokin being genetically stylized, but that's conjecture on my part. We need more evidence to support.

[Urlan]

The anitmoa entry's Corpus father seems to imply that, by the fact of him having a natural son to be something that was not normal in Orokin society, that the Orokin did not practice normal reproductive practices. This would suggest tube babies or something along those lines, where birthed children were put into their caste based corpus groups from birth. For a mental picture, think of how the Irken Empire's citizens are 'born' on a converyer belt and then energized with a life support backback and a jolt by a 'cold unfeeling robot arm'. I don't think it would be quite that dispersonal for the Orokin but I could see something like that make sense. The Orokin culture is coming across as a sterile stratified culture that has each caste for a purpose with an individual not having much worth outside their unit. Sounds like a gloried tech based survivor culture that had started to become touches of an evil empire.

[--RV--Cola]

I really don't care about reasons, I just believe that they are energy and that's that.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

I really don't care about reasons, I just believe that they are energy and that's that.

Oh, a funny guy.

[Tengu147]

-snip-

 

That was quite fun to read. I do like the fact that many of the characters and species in Warframe have names that are more or less part of today's world, which helps to understand the basis of their design and the kind od role they play/played. Glad you could use that to come up with an interesting theory. I had a thread like that once but I lost it due to inactivity I guess aha :L

 

-stuff explaining Tenno possesing subject from RPC akin to demons-

Now it sounds like we're demons, possessing the frames xD

It fits with one of our nicknames, and personally I think it to be one of the cooler possibilities. It definitely cements the Tenno as being something that had been fundamentally changed by the Void, not even human anymore, not even physical - the stuff of nightmares.

 

Hmm... I'm not too sure how I feel about a type of possesion. I mean, it is very plausible and you have explained it in a way that makes sense, but I'm not sure if I like it (AKA is doesn't fit my headcannon ahaha :L). Perhaps I'll come around to the idea of it though, as I did with the Mono-Tenno theory which is pretty much proven to be correct *heavy sigh*. I do like the idea of us being seeing as demonic. It's a nice contrast to the English translation of the originally Japanese word, Tenno (天皇) meaning Divine Emperor. Plus it does clash with how the Sentients (or at least, their soldies/drones) seem somewhat angelic in their appearance, which makes everything more delightful in my opinion. Nonetheless, quite interesting to think about as usual, Morec0.

 

I really don't care about reasons, I just believe that they are energy and that's that.

 

[SilentMobius]

There's the stuff from the Evicerator Synthesis - the Infested attacking them after the destruction of the Executors. There's a little bit of a uncertainty in the timeline about that, but especially given that in the Corrupted Ancient Synthesis we see the Infested widespread and the Tenno referred to as betrayers, I thin the Evicerator one takes place AFTER the Tenno attack and killed destabalized the Empire.

 

Of course, we DO have SOME hints towards it - if one wants to take into consideration Lephantis was said to be "created" and the creature in the RPC was "crafted" seemingly in a time before the Tenno were deployed....

 

Yes but, as you say, the Tenno are betrayers at that point  and Orokin Society is breaking down so it is overwhelmingly likely that both of these are after the events of the Stalker codex. Which is the perfect time for Lephantis (and sure, perhaps other discreet "golems") to have escaped control and be infesting humans. It certainly didn't seem as though the people in that story were used to dealing with the infestation, which suggests a new threat.

 

I was quite explicit about saying "no mention of infestation in anything we know about the Old-War period." which those two pieces are most definitely not. Then are after the War and after the Tenno attack on the Orokin.

 

But it does raise an interesting point that both of these are closely _after_ the War (relatively) and the Infestation is writ large in both, whereas. Limbo, Mirage, Mag Prime codex, etc that provide info set during the war don't mention them at all.

 

I just think that we are taking a single line and extrapolating it into a general statement about the Old War without any supporting data at all and making assumptions about the old war that would impact the theme and storytelling of other codex entries, while at the same time not finding any of that impact.

 

We've already been burned that way with the Ember codex (ouch, sorry for the pun)

Edited June 25, 2015 by SilentMobius