Kogake Should Be Removed From Pvp

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

 everything knocks on slam attack, that isnt the issue, its about the sliding atack

 

DE, if you will keep kogake as it is, please give us knockdown resilience

Then the Kogake would be completely outclassed by every other melee weapon. I'll reiterate your solution: Handspring.

[Danfu]

 everything knocks on slam attack, that isnt the issue, its about the sliding atack

 

DE, if you will keep kogake as it is, please give us knockdown resilience

You already have it.What DE should do is have a cooldown on the amount of times you can be knocked down.So if you get knocked down once, you have to wait a while before you can knock down that person again.This combined with the knockdown resistant mods should stop the people complaining about kogake and limit its use to actually skilled players. Anyone who would still complain about it after that just needs some skill. If you are mad about getting knocked down, use these mods; (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Knockdown) and if your good you wont get knocked down a lot anymore. Its that simple.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Danfu

[Pythadragon]

For Kogake:

Change the knockdown on slide attack to a stagger. Slide attack will still have a unique form of crowd control, but will remove the ridiculous knockdown into auto aimed finisher attack. Kogake will still be able to do knockdown on the slam attack just like every other melee weapon.

 

At the moment, there is no reason to use the slam attack because the slide attack does the same knockdown, comparable if not more damage, and is faster/easier to hit with.

 

In general:

Add an innate stagger and knockdown limit. i.e. if you get staggered, you get an X second window afterwards where you will be immune to future staggers. Same with knockdowns.

 

Side note: Precedent has been set in pve for crowd control abilities being reduced in effectiveness for repeated usage against the same target. i.e. each time an ability is used on a riot moa, it would last shorter each time and eventually be almost immune to that ability.

 

PvP combat is too fast and deadly for this to work. Thus the simple timer proposal as stated above.

 

My personal opinion is that stunlocks situations should not exist in pvp because they remove too much player agency. Single stuns to stop movement/retaliation are fine. Repeated stuns where you can do nothing in between are not. 

Edited May 4, 2015 by Pythadragon

[_BUSHIDO_]

Always always always getting kill by those annoying knockdown machine.

It's perfectly no skill, goddamn

[rockscl]

For Kogake:

Change the knockdown on slide attack to a stagger. Slide attack will still have a unique form of crowd control, but will remove the ridiculous knockdown into auto aimed finisher attack. Kogake will still be able to do knockdown on the slam attack just like every other melee weapon.

 

At the moment, there is no reason to use the slam attack because the slide attack does the same knockdown, comparable if not more damage, and is faster/easier to hit with.

 

In general:

Add an innate stagger and knockdown limit. i.e. if you get staggered, you get an X second window afterwards where you will be immune to future staggers. Same with knockdowns.

 

Side note: Precedent has been set in pve for crowd control abilities being reduced in effectiveness for repeated usage against the same target. i.e. each time an ability is used on a riot moa, it would last shorter each time and eventually be almost immune to that ability.

 

PvP combat is too fast and deadly for this to work. Thus the simple timer proposal as stated above.

 

My personal opinion is that stunlocks situations should not exist in pvp because they remove too much player agency. Single stuns to stop movement/retaliation are fine. Repeated stuns where you can do nothing in between are not. 

 

all of this

[(PSN)Madkiller2580]

No one uses gram on consoles i have played alot of matches and have not seen one. Only thing people use is kogake and alot of times its simply to stun you then run away with the cephalon. 

I completely disagree, I come across more gram users than kogake users ^_^ 

[Evangelis_Uk]

Soz...  Tested out using the Furax... It does knockdown on slam attack, and I took players out with that method.  From experience, I know the Gram is in the same boat.

 

People who are looking for a nerf to the kogake are basically asking for knockdown immunity, because kogake isn't the only melee able to knockdown, and probably won't be the last.  Just wait till Jat Kitag gets balanced for PvP.

 

The thing is, players who use the knockdown strategy will continue to use that strategy with whatever weapon that allows them to do so.  Same as players whom use Frost's 1st and a bullet, Mag's 1st and a bullet, etc.

 

The best solution against someone using a knockdown play-style is to keep your distance, use a power, or perhaps do your own melee.  If all an enemy is doing is to spam a kogake slide attack, or a gram slam attack (or channeling), or furax slam attack + rapid punches, then you have to adapt your strategy to defeat them.

A voice of reason amongst all the moans of people who cant or wont try to realise there will always be the most effective weapons and strategys like this. You have to adapt to them or find ways to beat them. I use Kogake alot and to be honest it does make all the children cry. Then when im against people with knockdown resistance and a couple of braincells i often find myself dead on the floor. Kogake has some weird bugs with lag and martial magnetism. I can slide kick people 2-3 times in a row and they js keep running away and dont even display any sign of knockdown resistance like a roll or "handspringing" back onto their feet. Kogake is weak 1 vs 1 melee and its not the fastest method of transport or the easiest to land a hit ( even with martial magnetism ). Further more maybe its just me but more often than not i cant get the ground pound finisher to work so i end up using main/secondary for the kill. Combine that with Iron skin eruption and ofcourse people are gonna complain about Rhino too. Its such a great build , it all works very effectively together. People just cant stand being beaten, they want us all to play their way of pvp. Thats not what its about, its about finding something that works for you and having fun with it :]

[Thalahssalyst]

"I cant evade a melee user, DE plis Nerf/remove/destroy that thing"
Im just here and see how many people complain about melee users, and i say, u cant use directional melee/air atack/coptering? 
Mobility weapons= Fang, Skana, Bo series... Kogake here too
Damage weapons= Gram, Kogake,Furax... etc

So u are asking for remove a different style of gameplay because u dont know, or you cant face that people...
Yes the knockdowns are common issue, but you have Mobility, and who choose damage weapons have his mobility reduced, a nice trade off if u see.
I just dont know how or why people complain about be killed for melee weapons when u have a lot of ways to make a nice evasion.
Im not a melee user, i like play with guns, soma prime/braton prime, and i never have problems with that people, just buy a mk1 bo and enjoy, I already can see people coming in future asking for nerf on Gelatine, and other heavy melee weapons.
Melee weapons have 2 types if u know how the system work (if we can call "system")...
Melee for damage = Less mobility Speed...
Melee for mobility = Less damage...
Im going to start with Furax.... And let the topics start....

[armedpoop]

Yeah it pretty much does nothing no clue why its even in pvp.

Pretty much does nothing? Are you sure? 

[animanera89]

The biggest problem are the damned "invulnerability frames" that the Kogake grants to the users when they do the sliding attack. Whenever I try to use a slam-hit after jumping against one of them, If the juggling buffoon of the moment is using the sliding attack, I'm pretty much granted that he will not fall. All those clowns have to do is just keep on roaming for the maps jumping on their hands and stunning (and then finishing) people. The anti-knockdown mods are not always working, because they increment the PROBABILITY to resist/react to a knockdown. Having to use a mod to counter a annoying playstile is not the answer. I could understand if they had way less damage or attack speed, but as for now they must be toned down somewhere to not ruin the game to other players. Hell, on stat they are no faster than other weapons like the Dex Dakra, and still every time I engage a clown face to face (without him doing the sliding attack if I'm lucky) in the best condition, no matter what melee weapon I'm using, we kill each other. They must be reworked if the Devs want to keep them in the PvP mode.

Edited May 15, 2015 by animanera89

[DrewHorrigan]

tl;dr

 

My opinion about Kogake has surprisingly little to do with spin attacks (the knockdown problem is overblown - handspring does help). My problem with it is that it consistently beats any other common melee, Gram included, in a face-off (when 2 stupid Tenno face each other and mash E furiously), even if the owner is damaged a little. Maybe it's the attack speed, I don't know. High attack rate also seems to make Martial Magnetism work better (at least I see a huge difference between Gram and Fang when I use it on both).

 

(Also, why do people keep coptering with its spin attack? Its air melee is faster, and easier to control...)

Edited May 7, 2015 by DrewHorrigan

[Nighttide77]

 everything knocks on slam attack, that isnt the issue, its about the sliding atack

 

DE, if you will keep kogake as it is, please give us knockdown resilience

 

Eh, I would have added Bo and Prime to the list that does a knockdown on slam attack, but I already experimented with it a while ago.  Bo does not knockdown on slam, and neither do the Dex Dakra and a number of others.

 

Please double check things.

[Nighttide77]

tl;dr

 

My opinion about Kogake has surprisingly little to do with spin attacks (the knockdown problem is overblown - handspring does help). My problem with it is that it consistently beats any other common melee, Gram included, in a face-off (when 2 stupid Tenno face each other and mash E furiously), even if the owner is damaged a little. Maybe it's the attack speed, I don't know. High attack rate also seems to make Martial Magnetism work better (at least I see a huge difference between Gram and Fang when I use it on both).

 

(Also, why do people keep coptering with its spin attack? Its air melee is faster, and easier to control...)

 

Have you tried fighting someone with Furax?  Their quick melee are about the same, I think...  Damage is different, tho, I think.........

[ArbitUHM]

I was quite surprised as a Frost with Dex Dakra to be beaten by a Excal with Kogake. He knocked me down, we both spammed 'e' and I lost. Yes, I had both knockdown mods equipped. No, it didn't really help.

 

I'm not really sure why you'd ever equip Dex Dakra over Kogake given it has better mobility, knockdown, and maybe better dps?

[MixterFox]

Just equip handspring is not good enough. It gets up you faster sure, but it gets you up just in time to be killed by the second hit. Or they run kogake and tigris and when you're knowed down blow two loads of buckshot in your face. Its just too easy to spam, something CC should never be able to do.

[_BUSHIDO_]

when the patch to remove this S#&$?
God damm

[JonBenj]

Something needs to happen.

 

Combine Kogake with Relentless Assault and Martial Magnetism and you have a very over powered melee weapon.

 

Knockdown and ground finisher, Knockdown and Primary/Secondary shot.

 

Before players jump in (allready) and say just air melee/spin away. Not so easy. Especially with those mods.

 

You could turn and shoot back or melee, your very similar health and sheild pool has taken enough of a hit to make either melee or shooting a game of numbers - hoping for that frantic headshot multiplier.

 

Otherwise it could be one Knockdown spammer and the other filling the downed player in.

 

Coming from 1.0, where you could jumpkick and kill the player while downed, it was considered poor form; and eventually would not be used. Stagger which was mentioned elsewhere in this thread instead of knockdown is the same, the player is animation locked for a time - could you fire off 4-5 Latron P shots in that moment? i think so.

 

All the voracious Rep/kill farmer noobs use Kogake or Furax.

[imaxium]

I disagree that kogake should be removed entirely, but I do agree that you can cheese with them. Even with the two mods equipped u can still stun lock someone.(i dont hv martial magnetism on in vid) https://vid.me/21zW

 

 I think that the Martial Magnetism mod however makes the kogake a bit OP  because then their hitbox is basically guaranteed and stun lock takes no skill. 

 

Also, my advice to counter melee players, use mobility and abilities. Mags pull and excals slash can stun and open an easy finish. Also frosts freeze can slow them down and open for a finisher. Rhinos iron shrapnel mod also has a knock down effect.

Keep your distance or bring a shotgun, the tigris can kill a nyx/volt/weaker frame in one burst at close range. 

Edited May 10, 2015 by imaxium

[WERElektro]

Removing it makes little sense imo...

It just needs to be nerf'd ... alot.

And anti knockdown mods don't or hardly help... so don't give me this S#&$.

 

Once you're in their range, you're pretty much dead.

Unless you counter with melee and the kogake wielder misses some shots.

 

All I ever do is avoid Kogake wielding players... hope that they attack someone else so I can shoot them from a distance...

Edited May 10, 2015 by WEREsandrock

[Feyangol]

Removing it makes little sense imo...

It just needs to be nerf'd ... alot.

And anti knockdown mods don't or hardly help... so don't give me this S#&$.

 

Once you're in their range, you're pretty much dead.

Unless you counter with melee and the kogake wielder misses some shots.

 

All I ever do is avoid Kogake wielding players... hope that they attack someone else so I can shoot them from a distance...

Slide+jump backwards and directly aim+shoot at them - works fine with a volt and a low ttk weapon (shock+a few hits kill everyone in under 1 second, what is enough time).

 

But kogake really sucks sometimes ...  One guy ruined my kd today with it, it was hard to get 3-1 kds or better x.x .

[WERElektro]

Slide+jump backwards and directly aim+shoot at them - works fine with a volt and a low ttk weapon (shock+a few hits kill everyone in under 1 second, what is enough time).

 

But kogake really sucks sometimes ...  One guy ruined my kd today with it, it was hard to get 3-1 kds or better x.x .

 

Had a rhinoob today doing NOTHING but Kogake spam.

I use excal, Braton p. , lex p. and dual razar or what they are called. Even when there was a distance between us, I couldn't even blow enough bullets into his skull to kill him..- he just closed the distance and knocked me down.

All I could hope is to gather some energy and to slash dash him to death.... in the end he had a  KD ~ 50:10

I swear those 10 deaths were caused by me. I was somewhere along 25:15.... I'm not that good to get 3:1all the time... but at least I don't use Kogake or macros.

Next match tho there was a Kogake player who didn't do a good job... killing/ evading him was rather easy.

Guess it depends on the player.. but Kogake is potentially abuseable.

[Feyangol]

Had a rhinoob today doing NOTHING but Kogake spam.

I use excal, Braton p. , lex p. and dual razar or what they are called. Even when there was a distance between us, I couldn't even blow enough bullets into his skull to kill him..- he just closed the distance and knocked me down.

All I could hope is to gather some energy and to slash dash him to death.... in the end he had a  KD ~ 50:10

I swear those 10 deaths were caused by me. I was somewhere along 25:15.... I'm not that good to get 3:1all the time... but at least I don't use Kogake or macros.

Next match tho there was a Kogake player who didn't do a good job... killing/ evading him was rather easy.

Guess it depends on the player.. but Kogake is potentially abuseable.

Their weakness is when they come at you.

A lot kogake or in general melee spammers don't expect that you can turn around your camera and still shoot while you are running - try to do that and you will improve ;) .

[Danfu]

Their weakness is when they come at you.

A lot kogake or in general melee spammers don't expect that you can turn around your camera and still shoot while you are running - try to do that and you will improve ;) .

Lol i do that so much nowadays people always fall for it (works with rhino charge and slash dash too)

Edited May 11, 2015 by Danfu

[Aggh]

Their weakness is when they come at you.

A lot kogake or in general melee spammers don't expect that you can turn around your camera and still shoot while you are running - try to do that and you will improve ;) .

^This.  Get in a couple shots and when they go in for the knockdown, start swinging with melee of choice.  Dex dakra wreck kogake users, dual raza work pretty well too.  Or just use bo/bo prime, if you ever get knocked down by a kogake user while running bo prime rest assured it was all your fault.

[Nighttide77]

So...  let me make sure I understand some things about opinions on this thread...

 

Knockdown attack and then finisher (whether by rifle, explosive, or melee finisher) is considered 'bad form.'  Using Mag's pull, Frost's Freeze, Nyx's Mind Control, and any other power that performs a momentary stun, and then finishing them while they're staggered or vulnerable is also considered 'bad form'?

 

Basically, anything that CC's opponents and then takes them down is bad?