May 17Th Hot Topic: Constructive Feedback Vs Hyperbole

[Meepsauce]

Played Rhino a bit myself, only focused on Iron Skin because

1) Knockback immunity is required to tank at all

2) His first ability is a weaker, less consistent slash dash (often bugs, stopping you in place)

3) His stomps are contradictory and the energy cost is not worth it - Rhino Stomp > Radial Blast

 

Vauban makes even Radial Blast redundant for utility now.

 

My proposal would be: if you don't want to revoke the invincibility nerf (honestly, I think such a long period of unquestionable invincibility for 1 skill card is silly)

Make radial blast reduce damage output or fire rate, add a slow or something. Anything to give this utility. For area damage we look to heroes with big area ultimates or we charge a Scindo

At least let Iron Skin scale a bit more, somehow. Maybe give it a % armor increase on top? Something unique so he hasn't been crushed in all fields by other Warframes.

 

As for the Trinity best tank argument - while she can sustain on bosses, she will likely lose her sentinel in the process.

For common enemies, their health values + the team firing at the same enemies will make it difficult to sustain this, and trinity can very quickly find herself wiped out without a preparation link.

If I'm not mistaken, link also has a range and requires a target for the "invincibility".

 

What I don't want to see is a game that becomes 'LF Rhino, Trinity & Vauban for <x> run. Must have Catalyst & Reactor + 100% serration minimum'.

 

Keep some strengths, just don't allow it to become a complete faceroll in any field. This iron skin 100% was a faceroll build. Run over blue blob, hit 2.

 

I forgot to add:

The community is most upset about the changes to buying weapons directly.

I for one do not want to have to get blueprints for -everything- in the game. My early-game gun was a Burston and I used a catalyst in it, right up to it becoming my first level 30 weapon. Had it required a blueprint, the time it took for me to start feeling any level of 'decent' would have been much, much longer. I imagine this would be tedious.

 

I understand there will be a lot of excess money amongst the users who have proceeded past this content, but shouldn't that be the case? It seems like the wrong end to start- give those rich users more to spend on, don't make those new users have to grind so much, especially when their options for farming resources are so limited.

 

Stripping the invincibility from Sound Quake is a change that I struggle to understand. I know the ability has a long animation, and a damn cool one at that; but you're going to sustain a lot of fire for being so close unless you have a sentinel to ghost you.

If you don't kill everyone in the area or there are enemies further that gather to shoot at you, you could be met with a fierce flurry of bullets after the animation finishes anyway. This is also 100 energy cost, and I'm sure for the fights the invincibility matters in, any banshee would rather pop a sonar onto the enemies.

 

Just my two cents.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Meepsauce

[Lumireaver]

After popping my shiny new Banshee out of the foundry, I can confirm that her new Soundquake is next to impossible to effectively use in solo play, and very difficult to use in group play. The only reason I could even get a Soundquake off every now and then was because Trinity activated Party-Godmode.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Lumireaver

[nullCassielle]

The Time is 4:48 PM, I review the Update Notes, wondering how the changes to Banshee and Rhino will be received. The reaction to the changes to the Hek and Gorgon just a few weeks ago are still fresh in my mind, but I remember that we did receive quality feedback. This feedback allowed us to tweak the balance changes. I hope everyone else remembers this rollercoaster as well as I do.

But, back to today:

4:49 PM hits and the Patch Notes Post and Update 7.11.0 went live.

4:54 PM hits, the first “HOLY RHINO NERF” appears. I think, it’s only been 5 minutes, there is no way they could have loaded the game, played several levels, and produced feedback.

4:55 PM hits, another post (this time 6 minutes after original post) saying how we ruined Rhino!

4:56 PM hits and BAM another post! Now I am quite certain that it is all initial reactions at this point. I think to myself and sadly there is nothing I can take from these posts to a designer to make changes with. I go off into a daydream, picturing myself walking into Scott’s office and saying:

“Our Community is really reacting strongly to this Rhino change”– Me

“Oh! We just wanted to invite challenge into his play style, I think 100% invincibility was a little strong, what does the community suggest?” Scott

“Suggest? Hold on, let me check… oh. Nothing, actually, they just wanted to let us know that we ruined him and are doomed.”

For hours this continues, few posts emerge that provide constructive ideas, I savour those. More emerge on how this is the beginning of the end. Doom is nigh.

Then, after about 4 hours, we start getting somewhere. I assume this is because people have actually put the new changes to the test instead of just reacting to the notes. I start being able to grasp at underlying issues to bring up with the team.

So, I present to you Tenno a current list of what I’ll be taking to the Design Table:

-People wonder if the reaction is this strong to one OP ability, maybe the other abilities could use a buff! Let’s review!

- Holy S&@* where is his knockback immunity? (This is a bug, it SHOULD be there.)

- People want to know why the Nerf? Why not make stuff harder? What is being prioritized?

- Trinity is now “a better tank.” What does this mean for the overall balance of the frames?

- As Thor, a community mod, has summarized: "In essence, people seem concerned that what's happening is things are getting balanced towards an even, but weak, playing field". What are your thoughts on that?

- Not on the topic of Rhino, but Banshee not being invulnerable during Soundquake, can we talk about that?

This list is not final, and it doesn’t guarantee changes, but it will serve a purpose.

TL;DR? No - Please read it. Really. I really think if you’ve made a post about Rhino you NEED TO READ THIS. IF you don’t care about Rhino, carry on.

P.S: Scotty you’ll probably read this before I bring it to your office, so be prepared!

 

Figure it's time I shove my face in here.

 

People appear to be VERY upset about the market changes. That should be in the list.

 

No invulnerability DURING skill usage (Banshee Soundquake, etc) is a bad change. I haven't seen a single user in favor of that. One thing about it: you lose the full energy cost even if you don't get a chance to shoot it off. That is BAD, the user feels cheated, especially when playing a mission with a bunch of caster-type frames that hoover up all the energy orbs. Energy gets precious. Costly skills should guarantee invulnerability and CC-immunity or you risk losing as much as 5 minutes of high-risk play for the sake of saving energy just to lose it all without so much as one mangled body to show for it.

 

I think invulnerability as a SKILL is bad. It's a singularity and is unbalancable. Insanely high damage reduction is infinitely better for balance (literally, because invulnerability is INFINITE damage reduction, and any change to that is an infinite change.) I don't think the changes were PERFECT, but I think they were NECESSARY. And I think they should be EXTENDED to Trinity, who is our "cleric" and not supposed to be able to eat damage like so many crushed cheese-its.

 

As an aside, regarding balance in the future: What I think you should do is find a frame that the community has the least complaints about, and turn it into your "baseline" -- INTERNALLY AND PUBLICLY SO PLAYERS CAN PROVIDE USEFUL FEEDBACK -- around which all frames should be balanced. Equal ability, incomparable usage patterns, this should be the name of the (balancing) game. It would make your balancing easier, and would reduce community bickering. After that, you should focus on ENEMY and OBSTACLE alteration to compensate for any changes in overall difficulty this would (almost certainly) create for a well-rounded team, without turning away from solo players entirely (though obviously they shouldn't have it just as easy as a team of 4 that work together well and whose frames and weapons are good compliments to each other).

[Cr4p]

- As Thor, a community mod, has summarized: "In essence, people seem concerned that what's happening is things are getting balanced towards an even, but weak, playing field". What are your thoughts on that?

We need to balance the frames and always need to keep looking at the "Balance". We certainly dont want an OP frame that everyone starts using, but I am willing ot bet that with DE's data on what frames are used, how often, what skills are used and how often, they are in a much better position to decide what needs "Balancing" than a player who thinks they know everything about "How the game should work".

 

 

I agree, in that I think variety of frames used is something to strive for, but I don't know about balance. People have different play styles and different preferences, and some things are just better in some circumstances (I find volt amazing for corpus missions, terrible on everything else, frost is great for corpus/grineer defense, not so much on normal missions where you are constantly running around/infested) so I don't think you are ever going to find a real "balance", and definitely not one that satisfies everyone, and you are never going to find a way to make every frame acceptable for every person.

 

The point here is, especially considering this is a PVE coop game and not PVP so there is less need to balance one player's enjoyment against another's, was there really a need to nerf Rhino (and Banshee) that hard?

 

I do see Rhinos occasionally when playing online, but I've never seen just endless Rhinos, or seen them being so useful/powerful that I was in awe of them, and I've never once thought they needed a nerf or that they somehow needed to be less powerful because it was affecting my enjoyment of the game. If anything most of the time at best I thought, oh good, at least I probably don't have to worry about them going down and maybe they can pick someone else up if they go down during the mission, but most of the time I found myself thinking I would much rather have has a teammate on a different, more useful frame. That's going to be intensified even more now.

 

DE has more data than us, but was Rhino really so much used and exploited that he needed the one ability most people thought was useful to be nerfed? I can see a nerf if it really was possible to just stay invincible the entire game fairly easily, but I've just never really been all that impressed with Rhino in my experiences playing the game.

 

Banshee needs something during her Sound Quake, doesn't necessarily have to be invulnerability, but I just got around to starting to level my Banshee yesterday after the nerf, and on a corpus defense mission I went down a lot when using the quake, which seems counter intuitive to what one would expect when using your "most powerful, most expensive" ability. I could see an AOE reduction, maybe even damage (I have no clue what damage soundquake does), but that long animation and no protection means consistently eating bullets when using it at lower levels.

[Z0MB1E]

I love this argument.

This attack doesnt one-hit kill there is no point.

Sorry to break it to you folks but these game makers dont balance stuff around one-hit kill or not.

oh please with max focus lvl 11 rhino skills are not even 2 hit kill at 20-30 mobile defense lol.... 3 hit = 75x3 = 225 energy?!! u are kidding right? not to mention the small AOE

Edited May 19, 2013 by Z0MB1E

[Masikish]

Here's what needs to happen, quite simply:

 

1). Iron Skin needs to allow Shield Recovery while in use even if you're taking damage. Otherwise, Iron Skin does very little of any good.

2). Iron Skin needs to make you immune to Toxin and Disruption.

3). Fix the Knockback Immune bug.

 

The 80% DR can stay.

[Zarozian]

inb4 DE's solution is to nerf everyone.

That's..not...going to happen....>.>

[Zarozian]

So to sum it all up, we all want you guys to revert Rhino back to the way he was prior to the update, then buffing his other 3 skills and never touching him ever again.

 

We're all set and done here yes? No nerf, no downside, no rage from community, and Scotty is forgiven by all the Rhino users in the community and all the other warframes with overpowered abilities are once again under Rhino's great shield called "Iron Skin" so the rest of the community can now relax.

 

I mean we know what's best for Rhino, we played him more than you guys did.

Come on. Didn't I say this discussion is pretty much over? THIS IS WHAT WE WANT^ WE WANT THE NERF COMPLETELY REMOVED AND IRON SKIN WORKING THE WAY IT DID PRIOR TO THE NERF/UPDATE THAT IS WHAT WE WANT, AND WE ALSO WANT THEM FIXING AND BUFFING HIS OTHER 3 SKILLS AND MAYBE WE WON'T NEED TO USE IRON SKIN SO MUCH!

 

THAT IS WHAT WE RHINO USERS WANT, THE REST OF YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW RHINO WORKS, HELL YOU GUYS DON'T REALLY CARE, WE PLAYED RHINO MORE THAN YOU AND I AM 1000% POSITIVE THAT WE KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR RHINO.

[Zarozian]

 

Here's what needs to happen, quite simply:

 

1). Iron Skin needs to allow Shield Recovery while in use even if you're taking damage. Otherwise, Iron Skin does very little of any good.

2). Iron Skin needs to make you immune to Toxin and Disruption.

3). Fix the Knockback Immune bug.

 

The 80% DR can stay.

 

 

NO.80% DR NEEDS TO GO AND INVULNERABILITY NEEDS TO COME BACK. IT'S NOT LIKE GETTING A NERF IS THE ONLY OPTION HERE, YOU GUYS NEED TO REALIZE THAT IF WE ALL AGREE ON HAVING THE NERF COMPLETELY, THEY WILL MAKE IT HAPPEN, RHINO WAS PERFECTLY FINE BEFORE THE NERF.

[GTG3000]

Oh sorry, I didn't know we all report to you now.

 

Iron skin needed balancing. Now it needs both fixing and balancing, since it allowed to ignore status-inducing attacks, like the disrupting/poison, as well as stagger/knockback. Stop raging and wave your god-mode goodbye.

 

The stomp/blast need balancing, because they're not the most usefful ones. 

 

And we can discuss it as long as we damn well want to.

Edited May 19, 2013 by GTG3000

[Rexdeorum]

Come on. Didn't I say this discussion is pretty much over? THIS IS WHAT WE WANT^ WE WANT THE NERF COMPLETELY REMOVED AND IRON SKIN WORKING THE WAY IT DID PRIOR TO THE NERF/UPDATE THAT IS WHAT WE WANT, AND WE ALSO WANT THEM FIXING AND BUFFING HIS OTHER 3 SKILLS AND MAYBE WE WON'T NEED TO USE IRON SKIN SO MUCH!

 

THAT IS WHAT WE RHINO USERS WANT, THE REST OF YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW RHINO WORKS, HELL YOU GUYS DON'T REALLY CARE, WE PLAYED RHINO MORE THAN YOU AND I AM 1000% POSITIVE THAT WE KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR RHINO.

 

NO.80% DR NEEDS TO GO AND INVULNERABILITY NEEDS TO COME BACK. IT'S NOT LIKE GETTING A NERF IS THE ONLY OPTION HERE, YOU GUYS NEED TO REALIZE THAT IF WE ALL AGREE ON HAVING THE NERF COMPLETELY, THEY WILL MAKE IT HAPPEN, RHINO WAS PERFECTLY FINE BEFORE THE NERF.

Lmao......Hail to the King of Rhinos?

[Rexdeorum]

Oh sorry, I didn't know we all report to you now.

 

Iron skin needed balancing. Now it needs both fixing and balancing, since it allowed to ignore status-inducing attacks, like the disrupting/poison, as well as stagger/knockback. Stop raging and wave your god-mode goodbye.

 

The stomp/blast need balancing, because they're not the most usefful ones. 

 

And we can discuss it as long as we damn well want to.

I don't think you play as Rhino, people who play Rhino wouldn't say that, because they know why the invulnerability is a necessity.

[Zarozian]

Oh sorry, I didn't know we all report to you now.

 

Iron skin needed balancing. Now it needs both fixing and balancing, since it allowed to ignore status-inducing attacks, like the disrupting/poison, as well as stagger/knockback. Stop raging and wave your god-mode goodbye.

 

The stomp/blast need balancing, because they're not the most usefful ones. 

 

And we can discuss it as long as we damn well want to.

Then I will spend my whole day arguing with all of you who want Rhino destroyed till each and every single one of you losers give up and I won't be alone either, other people who support Rhino will show up here too.

 

We'll destroy you.

[Blackhog]

Wow came to comment my thoughts and browsing through the pages most of em have been said!

Well what remains is that the Rhino - Banshee situation was an immediate extreme solution to the endless exploiting of iron skin and the overly annoying fact of a banshee popping up and spamming ultis,while the Devs have enough time to figure out what to permanently do PLUS finalize U8 at the same time ...

Other than that rhino skin needs disrupter immunity + toxic high resistance ( popped up many times already ) , that 80 % dmg reduction is pretty ok for me and banshee needs either a temporary half dmg reduction when ultiing or her invulnerability back along wiith the nerfed reach + etc i think!

 

The market seemed pretty outrageous to me too  (closed beta tester here with all weapons tried out at least once ) and resembled a virtual butcher shop for new players but im sure this will get fixed as soon as possible.;) I find it to be another attempt to figure out how we will react and gather FEEDBACK ( the sole reason we are here )! < Emphasis on this

 

Edit : Forgot to mention the alloy issues , but ive seen myriad of comments and i dont find it necessary to be included here!

Edited May 19, 2013 by DERebecca
Removed comments towards others

[GTG3000]

I don't think you play as Rhino, people who play Rhino wouldn't say that, because they know why the invulnerability is a necessity.

 

Not much really, you got me. But seeing how Ember can tank pretty much anything with properly levelled overheat, I would say that with all the immunities to knockback/disruption/poison/whatever the iron skin would still give you a pretty sweet longeivity. Maybe, it should also be coupled with insta-shield restore, why not.

 

Note that I don't think it should stay as-is.

Edited May 19, 2013 by GTG3000

[KrisStrife]

Honestly, I would love to see it swapped back to how it was. It didn't feel OP, and I used it only when I was getting low on shields, a disrupting or toxic ancient appeared, I needed to Rez someone, or for boss fights.

 

I also used Rhino charge (mostly for mobility to cross gaps) and Rhino Stomp (great for locking down a boss for a few seconds of Gorgon fire, or buying squishy teammates/cryopod some breathing room).

 

That said, I'd be okay with swapping Rhino skin for Radial Blast (and swapping Radial Blast out for something useful), at least in cost, as long as we got the old Rhino Skin back. Number would take a while to get used to for me.

 

Edit: Also, the marketplace changes are even more terrible than the Iron Skin change.

Edited May 19, 2013 by KrisStrife

[[DE]Rebecca]

EDIT: May 19th @ 10:00 AM:

Thank you everyone for contributing to this thread so far, appreciate all the posts! Between the detailed suggestions, reminders that there is room to improve the update notes overall, and general helpfulness, I think we can say with confidence that there will be a thorough review of Rhino that will result in changes!

Just a little update, modified OP!

[GTG3000]

Just a little update, modified OP!

 

Awesome! ^^

[Lexandro-EGT-]

@Rebecca and Steve: I hope you read this, because it tooked me about and hour to discuss our thoughts and suggestions with clan-mates and to write it down.

 

To explain why I am so dissapointed and confused (not angry) about this Rhino nerf is:

Rhino was already one of the weakest frames (only Mag is worse in my eyes). There was no sense to take him to a high-wave group or mobile defense. 

1. Rhino has no skills which do serious damage (Rhino charge is a joke compared to slash dash, and radial blast is only good at weak enemies like rollerballs etc)

2. Rhino has nothing that supports the group seriously (radial blast kicks them to the ground, but a jump attack with Fragor, Gram etc. has the same effect -.-)

3. His ultimate Rhino Stomp is really a bad joke!!! Not only that Vauban does now the same with Bastille for only 75 energy, he does it better because enemies that go into the range of Bastille get also slowed and not only enemies at the beginning). The problem is that it doesnt help much the group! Enemies fly high and fall slowly down -.-  even the dissarm of Loki is worth more! And for ancients nobody needs a Rhino! Just for example, even the starting Warframe Excalibur is a hundred times more usefull as Rhino. With Blind (50energy) he can take out all ancients in a good range while blinding them for 12seconds!

4. Iron skin. Rhino was my second Warframe after Excalibur. After first confusion how weak and slow this char was, I saw how usefull Iron skin was.

So Rhino became my favorite in farming bosses or playing solo, because I had this "panic button" to save my &amp;#&#33; ;-)  Also in group-play it was usefull to revive a team-mate who died next to an toxic ancient. 

 

Conclusion: Rhino was never a strong or overpowered frame, he was weak or maximal average. There was no need to nerf him, he needed buffs!

 

Suggestion:

-The easiest way to make the most players happy is just to take the old iron skin but with a shorter duration. 9secs on max but does fit with Continuity. For a mod that takes 9 mod capacity he could have 3 seconds longer iron skin. That's really not unbalanced, because no other skill does profit of continuity at Rhino.

-If the developers want Iron skin to be as it is now, than they need to buff the other skills. Atm radial blast does not enough damage, and Rhino stomp needs a complete rework. Common, play with Rhino on higher enemies with Level 60+. In what exactly is a Rhino good atm?!? 

If you want to buff Rhino stomp than let Rhino stomp 5 times to the ground doing 100 damage to all enemies in range and throwing them to the air. That wouldn't be overpowered but usefull also for group-play, because Rhino would block an area by kicking all enemies for some seconds to the air, doing serious damage. I wouldn't also let this skill-damage be reduced by armor/defense of higher enemies. All Warframes do with their ulti about 1000 damage, some do even more. So a 500 damage ulti of Rhino wouldn't be overpowered and ways better than it is now.

 

P.S: At the developers: I love your work and the game, and I am really surprised how much work and love you put in your "baby", Warframe.

But my suggestion for balance-changes in the future would be to do it in small steps. Don't nerf the HEK and than balance it back. Don't nerf Rhino and than balance him back. It's logical that players who love Rhino are totally confused why their best skill now is almost worthless. It's logical that they are angry because they get "nerfed" but other frames like Trinity are not. 

You can avoid such "S#&amp;&#036;-storms" of the community if your changes (buffs/nerfs) are in small steps. 

 

Greetings 

Lexandro

[Rexdeorum]

Then I will spend my whole day arguing with all of you who want Rhino destroyed till each and every single one of you losers give up and I won't be alone either, other people who support Rhino will show up here too.

 

We'll destroy you.

 

 

Not much really, you got me. But seeing how Ember can tank pretty much anything with properly levelled overheat, I would say that with all the immunities to knockback/disruption/poison/whatever the iron skin would still give you a pretty sweet longeivity. Maybe, it should also be coupled with insta-shield restore, why not.

 

Note that I don't think it should stay as-is.

Now I can guarantee that Zaro's post is a promise.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Rexdeorum

[GTG3000]

Now I can guarantee that Zaro's post is a promise.

 

Oh, I'm shaking in fear.

Edited May 19, 2013 by GTG3000

[Mak_Gohae]

Played Rhino a bit myself, only focused on Iron Skin because

 

2) His first ability is a weaker, less consistent slash dash (often bugs, stopping you in place)

 

It weaker because the purpose is to knock people down and it bugs as much as SnD.

 

 

3) His stomps are contradictory and the energy cost is not worth it - Rhino Stomp > Radial Blast

 

I dont know how they are contradictory but, yes, one would say his # 4 attack would be > than his #3 attack.

 

 

Vauban makes even Radial Blast redundant for utility now.

 

How? It's an AOE that does damage and it's cheaper than VB's AOE damage attack.

 

 

My proposal would be: if you don't want to revoke the invincibility nerf (honestly, I think such a long period of unquestionable invincibility for 1 skill card is silly)

Make radial blast reduce damage output or fire rate, add a slow or something. Anything to give this utility.

 

You mean turn Radial Blast into Stomp?

 

 

 

For area damage we look to heroes with big area ultimates or we charge a Scindo

 

Charge Scindo doesnt have the reach of Radial Blast.

And a purpose of all of his attacks are to CC the enemy... how does this continue to escape people?

You can stun-lock the enemy with him, folks!

Edited May 19, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[Zarozian]

Just a little update, modified OP!

 

 

Awesome! ^^

I'm gonna be really upset if things go the way how these^ losers who don't even play Rhino, get what they want. I don't even know what reason they have for coming here other than to troll and piss people off.

[Zarozian]

Oh, I'm shaking in fear.

Oh I'm shaking my head with a facepalm. >.>

[Zarozian]

It weaker because the purpose is to knock people down and it bugs as much as SnD.

 

 

 

I dont know how they are contradictory but, yes, one would say his # 4 attack would be > than his #3 attack.

 

 

 

How? It's an AOE that does damage and it's cheaper than VB's AOE damage attack.

 

 

 

You mean turn Radial Blast into Stomp?

 

 

 

 

Charge Scindo doesnt have the reach of Radial Blast.

And a purpose of all of his attacks are to CC the enemy... how does this continue to escape people?

You can stun-lock the enemy with him, folks!

Wow you're a total troll.