Nerfing In General - Quickest Way To Lose Your Playerbase

[Captain_Seasick]

lots of stuff

 

Okay, my bad Jeraggerjack. I made a boo-boo there, and for that I apologise. But in my defence (cheap as it may be to say that) there has been a literal FLOOD of whining about Rhino's recent rebalancing, and quite frankly, it's tiring when there's just SO many other bugs, issues and "miscellaneous" things that are in need of SO much more attention than a select group of players' pet weapon/frame/whatever.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Captain_Seasick

[Otaiken]

Okay, my bad Jeraggerjack. I made a boo-boo there, and for that I apologise. But in my defence (cheap as it may be to say that) there has been a literal FLOOD of whining about Rhino's recent rebalancing, and quite frankly, it's tiring when there is an absolute ocean of bugs, issues and other things that are in need of SO much more attention than a select group of players' pet weapon/frame/whatever.

 

What I'm worried about is implications behind these changes. Balancing around defense missions, pointless and bugged nerfs, delayed patch with a heap of bugs that are just left to fester over weekend (imagine U8 was this week, my god). I'm thinking that DE just don't know what they're doing lately. Don't even get me started on the wierd marketplace changes..

 

Good old DE trying to bribe community waiting for U8 with Vauban, while sneaking in controversial changes like the marketplace and those nerfs and to top it all off they leave a sea of bugs in. GJ indeed. I don't know whether that's deliberate or just clumsy, either way it's worrying me.

 

Btw off topic, what's with those weird name's you're calling people?

Edited May 19, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Jeraggerjack]

Okay, my bad Jeraggerjack. I made a boo-boo there, and for that I apologise. But in my defence (cheap as it may be to say that) there has been a literal FLOOD of whining about Rhino's recent rebalancing, and quite frankly, it's tiring when there is an absolute ocean of bugs, issues and other things that are in need of SO much more attention than a select group of players' pet weapon/frame/whatever.

Who died and made you the judge of that?

Let me get this straight... you're saying that some of us shouldn't post so the bugs issues, whatever *you* value should get more attention?

 

Edited May 19, 2013 by Jeraggerjack

[Captain_Seasick]

The judge of what? I think it's fairly reasonable to want the sticky walls issue, for one, to be a MUCH higher priority for DE to fix (which affects just about everyone who doesn't have a strange but severe phobia of walls) rather than re-buff the recently "nerfed" Rhino ability, which only affects a (relatively speaking) very small amount of players. Or how about the fairly long-lasting bug with lockdowns on infested levels, which really breaks the game to such an extent that it's a HUGE gamble to play ANY non-defence infested mission.

 

And yeah, admittedly I'd be pretty P.O.'ed if they up and nerfed Trinity, which I just recently got my hands on, or Loki, my old-timey favourite (and starter) frame... But getting upset over something and throwing a royally sized crapstorm on this forum instead of calmly saying "Guys, guys, GUYS. This recent fix isn't okay at all. Please revise it." isn't feedback. It's just plain venting.

 

So if we can bury the hatchet here (in the DIRT, not each other's BACKS): I can understand the OP's anger, but just throwing a tantrum about it here isn't going to help anyone with anything. Least of all bringing back the supposed "balance" which Rhino supposedly had before the "nerf".

Edited May 19, 2013 by Captain_Seasick

[Captain_Seasick]

EDIT: Don't edit, it's confusing as hell.

 

I edited because I didn't want to flood the thread with ANOTHER post, just moments after having posted my last one, and in response to something that was written pretty much simultaneously as what I wrote. So yeah. I think my edit was at least kinda justified.

[Otaiken]

The judge of what? I think it's fairly reasonable to want the sticky walls issue, for one, to be a MUCH higher priority for DE to fix (which affects just about everyone who doesn't have a strange but severe phobia of walls) rather than re-buff the recently "nerfed" Rhino ability, which only affects a (relatively speaking) very small amount of players. Or how about the fairly long-lasting bug with lockdowns on infested levels, which really breaks the game to such an extent that it's a HUGE gamble to play ANY non-defence infested mission.

 

Yes, admittedly, I'd be pretty P.O.'ed if they up and nerfed Trinity, which I just recently got my hands on, or Loki, my old-timey favourite (and starter) frame... But getting upset over something and throwing a royally sized crapstorm on this forum instead of calmly saying "Guys, guys, GUYS. This recent fix isn't okay at all. Please revise it." isn't feedback. It's just plain venting.

 

So if we can bury the hatchet here (in the DIRT, not each other's BACKS): I can understand the OP's anger, but just throwing a tantrum about it here isn't going to help anyone with anything. Least of all bringing back the supposed "balance" which Rhino supposedly had before the "nerf".

 

Well, it's weekend so nobody is reading this anyway. If you make thread about wall running first thing monday morning things will be fine. Or just take all those issues and make a topic where you list them. I'll even bump it for you. There's no point coming to a topic about something just to tell them that it is not worth discussing. Apparently it is, if it wasn't it wouldn't have 4 pages. Also, just the amount of these topics is useful in conveying just how &!$$ed off community is. There are people who'll list all the rationale, but these guys get attention. Wouldn't want DE to think that  this might not be quite the clusterfuck it is. Also, I enjoy chaos.

 

EDIT: I refuse to argue about edits. Am I the only one getting farce vibes here?

Edited May 19, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Jeraggerjack]

You don't speak for anyone but yourself. Your posts should be adjusted to reflect that, Captain_Seasick.

Second, the OP was not a tantrum. He wrote the post from two perspectives. A) An adult. B) Someone who puts money into the game.

I suppose that part of the playerbase is unimportant?

I should not have to waste my time here spelling it out to you. Respect the rights of others to provide feedback on these forums (that means do not belittle them and label their posts as tantrums and such) or simply do not post. PERIOD. It's flamebaiting, no content, and the furthest from constructive as it can be.

[bakaxy]

There's balancing something and then there's making it useless because it's better than something else.

 

The shotgun nerf for example, before DE fixed it, was so extreme and unnecessary, and it was a sweep nerf as well so it targeted all three of them. For some reason because the Hek was deemed overpowered this was apparently good reason to nerf the Strun and Boar as well, neither of which were overpowered.

 

DE has this bizarre mentality of "nerf hard first and take feedback later." A DE employee in the clan I'm in took flak yesterday for the Rhino skin nerf prior to it being explained that the toxic/stun immunity being removed was accidental. Somebody brought up that Trinity can now tank better than Rhino. The employee's response? "Oh we're going to nerf her as well." So basically, because Rhino is now worse than Trinity, the answer isn't to rework Rhino to make him a better tank, but to nerf Trinity into the ground when she's already useless outside boss fights.

 

Thanks for writing this. I'm getting tired of all the people saying we need to be more constructive, when it is clear that DE is out of their mind overnerfing stuff and letting the community come up with reasonable solutions...

[Captain_Seasick]

Stuff.

 

Then DON'T. What I did was perfectly reasonable, even though there's probably no one else posting/reading here. Flooding a thread is the quickest way to make the topic derail.

 

If you like chaos, then fine. That's your cup of tea, and that's totally okay. But tbh, that's not something that belongs on a forum. ESPECIALLY not a feedback forum.

 

And yes, the community is P.O.'ed. As all hell, even. Boo-frickety-hoo. That's been a constant truth about nerfs ever since the dawn of internet patching. No one wants their pet <insert whatever here> to get bashed to hell and back. But like I said: whipping up a king-sized crapstorm benefits no one other than your selfish self. My "original" post in this thread was poorly worded, but my point was solid: crap happens. Until DE can get things back into balance, don't argue about it. Just cope with the fact that something that was once totally OP isn't anymore, and just go with whatever other thing, niche, ability, class, whatever that still is totally OP. If you're even into that sorta thing to begin with.

 

Hell, in Planetside 2, there's a massive group of people who does that "for a living". They're (not at all) affectionately referred to as "the 4th faction" because of their switcharoo habits.

 

PS: The wall-running bit was just an example of something WAY more important than the nerfing of (as you yourself have put it) "a useless ability". DS.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Captain_Seasick

[Captain_Seasick]

You don't speak for anyone but yourself. Your posts should be adjusted to reflect that, Captain_Seasick.

Second, the OP was not a tantrum. He wrote the post from two perspectives. A) An adult. B) Someone who puts money into the game.

I suppose that part of the playerbase is unimportant?

I should not have to waste my time here spelling it out to you. Respect the rights of others to provide feedback on these forums (that means do not belittle them and label their posts as tantrums and such) or simply do not post. PERIOD. It's flamebaiting, no content, and the furthest from constructive as it can be.

 

And I:

1. Acknowledged the fact that I made a mistake.

2. Apologised for it.

3. Explained what I actually meant.

4. Dropped the hostility.

 

I wish you could at the very LEAST copy my action #4, because honestly, the only one that's flame-baiting with content-less, non-constructive posts now, would be YOU.

 

Seeing also as how you're NOT a developer/admin/moderator/anything but an Average Joe user, I don't think YOU should sit TOO high and proud on your mighty morale horse, or you'll probably faint and fall down from a lack of oxygen. Continuously probing and provoking a user that' already dropped the bashing hammer (in a peaceful fashion) is even WORSE than what I originally did.

 

So really. Like I said: let's bury the hatchet peacefully, and stop with the BS.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Captain_Seasick

[Jeraggerjack]

And I:

1. Acknowledged the fact that I made a mistake.

2. Apologised for it.

3. Explained what I actually meant.

4. Dropped the hostility.

 

I wish you could at the very LEAST copy my action #4, because honestly, the only one that's flame-baiting with content-less, non-constructive posts now, would be YOU.

 

Seeing also as how you're NOT a developer/admin/moderator/anything but an Average Joe user, I don't think YOU should sit TOO high and proud on your mighty morale horse, or you'll probably faint and fall down from a lack of oxygen. Continuously probing and provoking a user that' already dropped the bashing hammer (in a peaceful fashion) is even WORSE than what I originally did.

 

So really. Like I said: let's bury the hatchet peacefully, and stop with the BS.

The apology doesn't undo your post. The fact you continue to attempt to justify making posts like that,  minimize your behavior, and continue to make posts using weighted language, pushing your perspective as the "right" perspective and anything that doesn't agree with it as "wrong" ,  makes your apology insincere. In addition. you call it "complaining" and then you go on to complain about the complaining. You're doing pretty much the same thing you're complaining about them doing and contributing a grand total of 0 towards a solution !

I understand you're young and impressionable. I understand you perceive my posts as hostile. However, if a senior takes you aside and tells you what you were doing is wrong, gives you alternatives, and suggests you don't do it the way you did it, that does not qualify as failing to treat you with respect. It does not qualify as treating you with hostility.

On the contrary, The senior (in this case, me) is showing you great respect by talking to you as an adult. I could have just reported your post to the moderators and had them deal with you, but I chose not to because I felt you could learn from your mistake rather than learning by facing the consequences from the moderator.

The fact that here I am not an administrator/moderator/anything here does not mean that what I posted means nothing. What I posted to you represents experience. It means that I have been there and done that.

I made it a specific point to post this here instead of PM'ing you because there are several others in this thread and in others that have done the same, so these posts are not just directed at you.

The next time you decide to make a post like you did and violate the agreement you digitally signed when you created your forum account and I see it, I will not be "hostile" , "probing" , and "provocative" to you and make an effort to educate you. I will simply do as I do with every other fool that makes a post like that on the forums. Report and let the moderators deal with them.

 

Edited May 19, 2013 by Jeraggerjack

[potatofamine]

players: NOOO! My Rhino is nerfed to the ground! RIP Rhino!

DE: derp! what does that even mean!? BE CONSTRUCTIVE!

[muccmaster]

I don't understand DE. How about buffing the weaker/useless skills and frames so that they're as good as the better ones and then go from there? All they do by nerfing is make everyone move onto the next most powerful frame/skill.

[FaceOfKain]

Seeing this thread gives me a flashback to TOR.  And we all know how that ended up.

 

I do think that we need more advanced warning of patch features and balancing/rebalancing, not just "day of, hope it do good with da fans" stuff they're doing now.

But if I hear one more person say it's "Just a Beta!"...

[ShockTart]

chill, the game is in beta. so complaining when the Devs make fixes/tweaks is kind of redundant

[Judopunch]

SO the latest League of Legends patch... nerfed about 13 of their most played champions. And they continue to nerf or buff as needed by their vision for the game and greater understanding of the nature of game balance. 

 

Every time the same thing happens, a couple loud children run the forums to get some attention, the game goes on and is better for the changes not the unfounded crys of fake outrage by the trolls and the shortsighted.

 

Should nerfing be the shortest way to destroy your player-base, than please let me know how the most popular game on the planet continually gets away with it.

[muccmaster]

SO the latest League of Legends patch... nerfed about 13 of their most played champions. And they continue to nerf or buff as needed by their vision for the game and greater understanding of the nature of game balance. 

 

Every time the same thing happens, a couple loud children run the forums to get some attention, the game goes on and is better for the changes not the unfounded crys of fake outrage by the trolls and the shortsighted.

 

Should nerfing be the shortest way to destroy your player-base, than please let me know how the most popular game on the planet continually gets away with it.

You have no idea what you're talking about. You're comparing a highly competitive PvP game to a PvE only game.

[TinyLesbianRobot]

if you leave the game because your items become balanced and not 1 button win monsters , then that's your decision and not something that is bad in general , not to mention completely silly

i would leave the game if they didnt constantly nerf the stuff that's too strong if anything

This would be valid if the ult ability on every frame wasn't intended to be a one-button win monster.

Mag's Crush.  Frost's Avalanche.  Nyx's Absorb.  Saryn's Miasma.  Excal's Radial Jav.  In some situations, Ash's Blade Storm and Ember's World On Fire.

The ult ability is intended to be overpowered.  It's intended to empty entire rooms of baddies - intended to make a huge mess.  If one frame's ult is nerfed, then if it becomes less powerful than all the others, then complaints are perfectly valid as the frame becomes, rather than a different playstyle, simply less powerful.

[Aerensiniac]

Okay, my bad Jeraggerjack. I made a boo-boo there, and for that I apologise. But in my defence (cheap as it may be to say that) there has been a literal FLOOD of whining about Rhino's recent rebalancing, and quite frankly, it's tiring when there's just SO many other bugs, issues and "miscellaneous" things that are in need of SO much more attention than a select group of players' pet weapon/frame/whatever.

 

1. (And i repeat this for like the third time now) This thread is about balancing in general, not specifically about rhino, or banshee, even though they serve as great examples how you should NOT do nerfing runs.

2. This is just a precedent. If Rhino has been nerfed, then so will 7 other frames with questionable abilities, starting with trinity, frost and excalibur.

 

Its irrational to leave obviously over powered frames in the game for 2+ months, letting everyone farm them and invest in them, then take them away without any form of preparation or warning, and expect not to have a backlash.

Should they approach nerfing on the other 5-7 frames like this, they will make sure that a good portion of the player base WILL leave the game to hell.

 

Balancing is a good thing, but doing it like a retard will hurt the game more than anything else.

Especially when (as a developer) you have no idea what you want to have in the game and what you dont.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[RenegadeSVK]

I uninstalled the game for this reason.

 

My friend introduced me to Warframe, and I didn't like it one bit. Then I saw Rhino in the marketplace, and they even have a machinegun. So after reaching required mastery rank I purchased Rhino with real money.

I feel cheated, screwed, ... , you get the idea.

I stopped playing Battlefield 3 because of nerfs, I stopped playing Planetsides 2 because of nerfes (and after only just 50 hours of gameplay. And I waited like a 1 for the game to come out) . What happened to Planetsides 2 (loosing players) is THE BEST example right there to not take this path.

I just cannot withstand nerfs. I had enough of it. Even though I love warframe, it totally ruins my day to see all stuff nerfed.

 

What is wrong with feeling powerfull in the game, why do most of the abilities feel useless and low damaging. Why not shredding mobs to pieces with your ultimate ability and laugh.

[Venarge]

I uninstalled the game for this reason.

 

My friend introduced me to Warframe, and I didn't like it one bit. Then I saw Rhino in the marketplace, and they even have a machinegun. So after reaching required mastery rank I purchased Rhino with real money.

I feel cheated, screwed, ... , you get the idea.

I stopped playing Battlefield 3 because of nerfs, I stopped playing Planetsides 2 because of nerfes (and after only just 50 hours of gameplay. And I waited like a 1 for the game to come out) . What happened to Planetsides 2 (loosing players) is THE BEST example right there to not take this path.

I just cannot withstand nerfs. I had enough of it. Even though I love warframe, it totally ruins my day to see all stuff nerfed.

 

What is wrong with feeling powerfull in the game, why do most of the abilities feel useless and low damaging. Why not shredding mobs to pieces with your ultimate ability and laugh.

The difference between bf and wf is that this is beta. And in beta, changes happen every week. You either get over it or you leave....

[Supern00b]

 

And none of this answers anything that has been said.

Beta is not an answer to anything when you are actually selling the items in question for money.

For free players its just a **** load of disappointment, since you have destroyed only god knows how much time and effort they have spent on obtaining and maxing out the sepcific warframe, but there are also the cash players.

 

So with all due respect and to everyone who is calling BETA:

Nobody gives a damn.

Not those who now got 2 useless frames after days or weeks of grinding, not those who spent platinum on it.

 

Sorry kids, this is not how business works.

Nobody questions DE's right to change things, but all change can and will come with repercussions and THAT is what this thread is about.

A few more all around nerfs like the current one, and they can kiss their palyer base good night cause nobody will give a single **** about whether or not its beta, people will leave.

THINK before dumping stuff into the game.

 

Stop trying to explain this stuff. The people who always say 1) its beta will never listen.

They will chant beta beta beta despite the fact open beta pretty much equates to the launch, if not is bigger than the launch of any F2P game.

Beta is now just a marketing tool.

 

Yes I did spend $250 on a game, yes I am questioning my decision, and yes I would quit the game if it starts to bore me / annoy me.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Supern00b

[vieuxchat]

Beta means the content of the game isn't complete.

There still isn't : end-game content, a complete dojo, ways to choose dififculty, a chat that is helpfull when you chat with different people, enough tilesets, lore included, a real tutorial, things we don't think of but devs aleady have in mind.

So we can say the game is in beta.

And beta is the right moment to start balancing things.

The only thing is that balancing should be done at the end of content creation, so that new content wouldn't break the balance.

[TunaMayo]

The difference between bf and wf is that this is beta. And in beta, changes happen every week. You either get over it or you leave....

Yes but how long will we be in beta if their are constantly changes that the community doesn't want or like?

I'm all for balancing in a game, I dont want one frame to be superior. But nerfing is not the way to go. Is it right to take the fun out of frames and then bring in the most entertaining frame yet?!

After update 8 release I would really like it if DE stopped what they were doing, put all future content on hold and get the whole team to perfecting what we got. Other frames need balancing to be on par with Vauban, bugs need to be minimalised, the marketplace needs another look, drop rate need fixing, AI needs fixing, melee needs buffing to be viable compared to gunplay, bosses need not be bullet sponges and connectivity issues and crashes need sorting. These are what need to be done ONTOP of the wave of bugs we are about to experience from update 8 before anything else is done.

A polished game will bring about new players, increasing profits, meaning new content can then be worked on.

On a side note, DE need to read the community better. I am not personally complaining but I find it astounding how a company that has such personal contact with it's player base can consistently make decisions that the majority of the community dislike. It's like their just throwing things out there saying "we just rushed this what you think?", the players say "me no likey", and DE replies "ok cheers, we won't do anything yet but here is another thing we rushed to take your mind off it".

[xenapan]

You must not have been here for U7.

 

Let me remind you what happened. All frames and weapons lost passive rank up bonuses. ALL mods were rendered useless which basically set people back to 0 in terms of everything. It didn't matter that your warframe/weapon was rank 30 and potatoed because you had no mods to put on there. And even if you DID get mods to put on there, they were barely leveled. If they were leveled at all it was because you paid exorbitant amounts of credits to level them. For 2 weeks the forum was literally filled with topics about why redirection was so hard to find, where was the best place to find it, and people asking for drop rate increases.

 

Compared to that all these nerfs are subtle. And no.. that didn't kill the player base. People just kept playing.