Rhino Vs Ember: Durability Analysis

[Judopunch]

I still take loads of damage during Iron Skin, how's so?

I dont know, instead of making S#&$ up, go into a game and test it. Maybe its buged. Maybe you can provide good feedback. Go make yourself useful and do something that may actually make the developers think, because I promise you they arnt paying attention to anything else your posting.

[Supern00b]

In the context of our discussion, this means that the gulf between 80% and 91% damage reduction looks more like a canyon than the pothole it first appears to be. Overheat is not 11% better than iron skin. Overheat is not 11/80 = 13.75% better than iron skin. Overheat is 122% better than iron skin. It is the difference between taking 9% damage and taking 20% damage.

It is annoying how people never seem to be able to get this through their thick skulls.

Especially the fan boys in council chat.

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

I dont know, instead of making S#&$ up, go into a game and test it. Maybe its buged. Maybe you can provide good feedback. Go make yourself useful and do something that may actually make the developers think, because I promise you they arnt paying attention to anything else your posting.

 

I already did. Iron Skin needs full resistance to Ancients effects (Energy drain and Toxins) to be at least high level viable. Currently there is no point in using Rhino since he was the only Warframe that could counter infested with his powers, and there are Warframes who are doing his job 10 times better (See Frost, Nyx, Vauban and Ember).

[Supern00b]

I already did. Iron Skin needs full resistance to Ancients effects (Energy drain and Toxins) to be at least high level viable. Currently there is no point in using Rhino since he was the only Warframe that could counter infested with his powers, and there are Warframes who are doing his job 10 times better (See Frost, Nyx, Vauban and Ember).

^This.

 

Iron skin was the only reason people played Rhino.

Now if I want to tank I will go with Frost, Trinity or Ember.

Aoe control is Nyx, Vauban

 

There is literally nothing the Rhino can do other classes cant do BOTH better AND faster AND with a higher energy pool.

[Judopunch]

Its bugged right now... they are giving it back its immunity.... what are you still complaining about?

[Story4]

Its bugged right now... they are giving it back its immunity.... what are you still complaining about?

 

Cus he's Iron Skin still sucks compared to Ember's Overheat and his other skills are almost useless.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Story4

[w00tm0ng3r]

Its not armor.... its flat damage reduction. This is the problem with you guys your uneducated.

 

Lol. Oh and it's percent damage reduction, not flat.

 

On to the topic at hand, since Judo would rather insult us than do any actual science, it falls upon me to enlighten us all. Testing indicates iron skin only reduces toxic ancient damage to 28% rather than 20%. Correcting this, which I can only presume to be a bug, would represent a 40% increase in Rhino's survivability while in direct contact with toxic ancients. I feel that iron skin should cut toxic damage to no more than 10% if not provide outright immunity to it, as there is literally no other defense against it, and Rhino must have significant ancient killing prowess to even attempt to justify taking him over Frost.

[Judopunch]

Lol. Oh and it's percent damage reduction, not flat.

 

On to the topic at hand, since Judo would rather insult us than do any actual science, it falls upon me to enlighten us all. Testing indicates iron skin only reduces toxic ancient damage to 28% rather than 20%. Correcting this, which I can only presume to be a bug, would represent a 40% increase in Rhino's survivability while in direct contact with toxic ancients. I feel that iron skin should cut toxic damage to no more than 10% if not provide outright immunity to it, as there is literally no other defense against it, and Rhino must have significant ancient killing prowess to even attempt to justify taking him over Frost.

Look up about half way up the page. Keep talkin.

 

Edit: Actually, you have a good point and great math. Look at the difference between your one little post here and everything else posted thus far.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Judopunch

[Judopunch]

Cus he's Iron Skin still sucks compared to Ember's Overheat and his other skills are almost useless.

 

rabcor, on 18 May 2013 - 5:41 PM, said:

It's just not cool. Seriously kids... "My toy broke, so i'm gonna try to break my friends toy" come on! that's childish! admit it!

 

look at this explanation of how iron skin is not underpowered next to overheat even if said overheat has a maxed out focus.

 

Here's some armor maths.

 

If you're too lazy to read it all. At least look at the numbers.

 

10/110 = 0.09

140/240 = 0.58

 

lets say you get 100 damage with ember and rhino at their base armor (10 and 140).

 

Ember resists 9.09 taking: 90.9 dmg

Rhino: resists 58.3 taking: 41.7 dmg

 

Now let's take for example with overheat at 70% and 91% (ember without max focus first, and then with max focus) and rhino's iron skin at 80% (with no focus) there are 2 ways this might hbe happening and i don't know which one DE uses.

 

If calculation of abiliities damage reduction happens after armor:

90.9 * 70% = 63.63 resist Ember taking 27.27/100 dmg

90.9 * 91% = 82.7 resist, Ember taking 7.3/100 dmg

41.7 * 80% = 33.36 resist Rhino taking 8.34/100 dmg

 

If calculation of abiliities damage reduction happens before armor:

30 * 0.09  = 2.7 resist Ember taking 27.3/100 dmg

9 * 0.09 = 0.81 resist Ember taking 8.2/100 dmg

20 * 0.58 = 11.6 resist Rhino taking 8.4/100 dmg

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

It is true after all that with maxed focus Ember resists just a little bit more damage than rhino (one way or another) however; In her defense she needs a maxed focus to do this which isn't easy to get and i believe although don't know for certain; that Rhino could do the same and increase his damage resist way above Embers with it even if Rhino usually wouldn't want to have focus. However you can say the same about Rhino grabbing Steel Fiber to increase his base damage resist which is a mod Ember would pretty much never use (just like Rhino would usually not want to use Focus) and without much effort you can make rhino take less damage than ember with a max focus Overheat.

 

Ember has a lot less Shields than rhino, overheat has a shorter duration(2s) than iron skin and the final pointer. The real reason why iron skin outclasses Overheat as a defensive ability and always will. Even if it's bugged right now (shame on you DE) it is supposed to make you immune vs disables and toxic damage. Ember can get stunlocked easily with her overheat active and unless her AoE dmg kills everything she will die because of that; since without overheat she'll die very fast with that little damage reduction. Whereas rhino still has 140 armor which gives about 58% damage resistance without iron skin to HP loss (where ember only has 9%) and to top all that, without a maxed out focus Ember takes quite significant damage with overheat on.

 

Does this calm you a little bit? no more rage towards Ember? it's not like it's her fault that Rhino's iron skin got nerfed.

And besides.

 

That being said. i think Rhino's iron skin (apart from current bugs) is completely fine like it is. I play Rhino myself too and i love him just the way he is now (apart from current bugs) and i don't even use Steel Fiber, but i might start doing it now after i did the math on it.

 

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The one thing you can still argue about is that Armor doesn't apply to shields but i think the abilities do.

Rhino and Ember both have 200% Redirection and Vitality, Each have 500HP, Ember has 500 Shields and Rhino 750.

This means that with 100dmg shots their shields would drop this fast:

 

Ember/W Max Focus: 56 shots

Rhino: 38 shots

 

18 shot difference.

Meaning rhino takes 150 dmg before Ember starts dropping.

But wait... there's more.

 

Ember:18 shots

Rhino: 38 shots

 

20 shot difference.

Ember takes 546 dmg before Rhino starts dropping without relying on mods(Steel Fiber/Focus). This would usually mean that by the time Rhino

would start losing health Ember would already be dead

 

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In the end it's really just unfair that you compare Ember's overheat with a maxed out EXTREMELY RARE mod vs Rhino's ability without any mods to support  it. Stop trying to encourage DE to nerf other Warframes because your favorite was nerfed. Nobody wins if you do that. Also worth noting (even if i took no part in it, and in fact disagree) people have been complaining for a while that Ember is weak and underpowered and useless.

[PhiZero]

If I remember, Poison damage does ignore armor but I am not sure about damage reduction. Though the damage difference on Toxic Ancients is a bit odd where some people claim to take 50+ damage a tick and others 1 damage per tick. The Toxic Cloud the Ancient emits deals ~50 initial damage, then deals 1-5 damage a tick for 5 seconds after you leave the Toxic Cloud, and it renews the ability as long as you stay in the cloud, dealing 50 damage per tick as it continues to renew while your in the cloud.

[lZerul]

When Iron Skin gets its CC immunity back, it will have better utility then Ember's Damage reduction.

 

Not to mention, the entire crux of this post is centered around a mod working for Ember, when it doesn't work for the Rhino. Both are Damage Reduction abilities, but only one is receiving the benefits of Focus, shouldn't this be reported as a bug instead?

[BETAOPTICS]

This feels so wrong but then again someone mentioned that the Diamond skin might help at this, don't take me granted though as I only know the name and do not know what it does.

[sylothix]

All I get from this thread is:

 

Let's stick with the holy trinity.

 

Homogenize everything.

[GratuitousLurking]

If I remember, Poison damage does ignore armor but I am not sure about damage reduction. Though the damage difference on Toxic Ancients is a bit odd where some people claim to take 50+ damage a tick and others 1 damage per tick. The Toxic Cloud the Ancient emits deals ~50 initial damage, then deals 1-5 damage a tick for 5 seconds after you leave the Toxic Cloud, and it renews the ability as long as you stay in the cloud, dealing 50 damage per tick as it continues to renew while your in the cloud.

 

By far this is the big issue. Walking over the toxic cloud seems to only be 1 damage a tick, but for people that can get to Wave 40 reliably, there's so much talk about them essentially being walking nukes. That list of contradictions and mixed up data all over don't help anyone :S

[Notso]

Wait Iron Skin only lasts 13 seconds now? o.0

[lZerul]

Probably an exaggeration.

[Kripnex]

On 2013-05-19 at 7:49 AM, Nicocat said:

FYI, though:

Overheat will NOT save you from nasty CC and disruption S#&$.

 

Neither will Iron skin.

 

 

Edit:

On 2013-05-19 at 8:57 AM, Judopunch said:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/46775-please-stop-picking-on-ember-because-rhino-got-nerfed/

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/46775-please-stop-picking-on-ember-because-rhino-got-nerfed/#entry474819

Edited October 25, 2021 by Kripnex

[Nicocat]

Neither will Iron skin.

That part's a bug. Overheat isn't SUPPOSED to.

[Kripnex]

On 2013-05-19 at 6:21 PM, Nicocat said:

That part's a bug. Overheat isn't SUPPOSED to.

 

Is it an official bug? Because if it isn't, then iron skin isn't SUPPOSED to either, for both skills say they have damage reduction, and neither talks about immunities.

 

Edit:

On 2013-05-19 at 6:41 PM, Nicocat said:

Pretty sure it is, but DE is stupid and does huge patches on Friday, so nobody's around to confirm what they broke. Still, do you really think they'd nerf the damage reduction, duration AND immunity all at once? That's Riot-level uber-nerfing.

 

... Well, DE is full of nasty surprises, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was intentional.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Kripnex

[Nicocat]

Is it an official bug? Because if it isn't, then iron skin isn't SUPPOSED to either, for both skills say they have damage reduction, and neither talks about immunities.

Pretty sure it is, but DE is stupid and does huge patches on Friday, so nobody's around to confirm what they broke. Still, do you really think they'd nerf the damage reduction, duration AND immunity all at once? That's Riot-level uber-nerfing.

[Zeddypanda]

Is it an official bug?

Yes. Rebecca confirmed it a few hours after the patch got released.

[Aerensiniac]

 

 

 

375 platinum pls.... plssss....

 

Could anyone tell me the logic behind making the worst frames the most expensive ones?

Edited May 19, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Qynchou]

Pretty sure it is, but DE is stupid and does huge patches on Friday, so nobody's around to confirm what they broke. Still, do you really think they'd nerf the damage reduction, duration AND immunity all at once? That's Riot-level uber-nerfing.

Well why the hek not? It doesnt hurt anybody.

 

nerf nerfity nerf nerf nerf

[Aerensiniac]

Well why the hek not? It doesnt hurt anybody.

 

nerf nerfity nerf nerf nerf

 

refer to: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/46295-nerfing-in-general-quickest-way-to-lose-your-playerbase/

[Zeddypanda]

ember blows

 

she has two attacks that do exactly the same thing. 

Mind sharing which these two are?