Please Stop Picking On Ember Because Rhino Got Nerfed

[Kantazo]

Ember the next on the chopping block... lol

[Icebreccer]

Ember should never even be a tank. She should be more like a really good crowd controller and she actually is now that her World on Fire is working as intended.

I would be happy to exchange Overheat if I'd get some kind of good ranged AoE skill on her which you can "throw" from a distance.

To be completely honest Rhino NEEDS a buff. Make Iron Skin like it was before and perhaps improve its ultimate and change the Rhino Charge to a completely different skill.

[Aggh]

You can't post math you haven't verified and tested as an argument.

 

You don't even know and don't seem willing to test how the systems work.

 

Heck, you get the Rhino's armor value wrong.  It's 150, not 140.

 

Here's what I know:  

1) Overheat and the current iteration of Iron Skin both apply DR to shield damage.  

2) Armor does not apply to shield damage at all.

3) Overheat is affected by Focus, Iron Skin is not.

4) With a maxed out Redirection, the Rhino has 1110 shields, and the Ember has 740

 

 

Let's smack them with 100 base damage a pop and see how long their shields last.

 

Ember with no Focus: 30 damage per hit.  Takes 25 hits before armor comes into play

Rhino with current Iron Skin: 20 damage per hit.  Takes 56 hits before armor comes into play.

Ember with maxed Focus: 9 damage per hit.  Note that this is 1/2 what the Rhino takes.  83 hits.  

 

That's almost 50% more damage absorbed by shields than the Rhino.  That makes the Ember a better tank despite having lower shields.

 

You can't use math to argue how you think things work.  You need to use math to prove things.  I've just proven that Ember with maxed Focus is currently a better shield tank than the Rhino.

 

Rhino players aren't picking on Ember, they're using her as an example.  They're demonstrating that Iron Skin, which has been the signature skill for the Rhino for ages, is now much less useful.  Ember's Overheat is the only comparable skill, so they're comparing the two and finding Iron Skin lacking.

 

Please test your theories, check your data and run experiments before you attempt to use math and science to prove a point.  Vomiting a bunch of numbers onto the screen doesn't help anyone, and may mislead those you're trying to help.  If you care about science, run an experiment.

 

^This.  Also, overheat used to be immune to CC too, like with Rhino, it's likely a bug that overheat isn't doing it.

 

I also think it should be pointed out that ember is supposed to be a caster, having her be a tank of any kind is pretty silly :|

Edited May 19, 2013 by Aggh

[Deadly-Bagel]

I don't think anyone is saying OMG MY TOY BROKEN I BREAK YOURS, but rather are speculating that if the TANK can no longer tank (as well as he used to), the nerf hammer will likely keep swinging to other non-tank frames who can still tank.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. The new Iron Skin is fine, the only REAL difference is you can no longer use it to recharge your shields in the middle of twenty MOA.

HOWEVER

the uselessness of his other three abilities (I only used Radial Blast to kill rollers and Rhino Stomp for lulz) now makes him a sub-par Warframe, and should be improved to compensate. Rhino Charge should not be interruptible and perhaps be slower but go further, Radial Blast needs to do about 600 base damage, and Rhino Stomp needs a longer duration, perhaps about on-par with the length of Chaos (which, as it happens, is currently far more effective in every way).

Edited May 19, 2013 by Deadly-Bagel

[Tegajinn]

The Ember should never mitigate more damage than the Rhino especially considering that the Ember can dish out a lot more damage via powers in addition.  It's not balanced and the Rhino needs buffs to Iron Skin at the very least.

 

I'd be happy with the following:

 

* 95% damage reduction with a max ranked Iron Skin to both Health AND Shields.

* Immunity to all CC including Disrupter Ancient energy sap, Toxic Ancients, etc.

* Some form of agro generation

[Rabcor]

I stopped reading midway of the first sentence. If your going to make an arguement, don't agree with the opponents. And if you don't know for certain, don't post at all. After reading that part, i asked myself, "How do I know you didn't half-assed these numbers?".

 

And no. You claim that ember can be a better tank, therefore, something needs to change.

I must state solid facts if i want to make a sound argument. You know those numbers aren't half assed because i showed you the formulas. I'm stating that ember needs maxed out rare mods to be on par with rhino as a tank with overheat active (so its an unfair comparison).

Also that without said rare mods, Ember (even with overheat) would be able to die before rhino would even start taking any damage.

 

This sounds completely balanced to me. Ember w/o mods cannot tank nearly aswell through her abilities as a Rhino w/o mods, but ember W maxed out rare mod can compare to Rhino w/o mods and is Definetly just a little bit better if they start out with max shields. What i didn't test is rhino with steel fiber but i'll add that in a moment since now i have slept.

 

Edit:

Now with steel fiber behind us, we can see that ember can only be a better tank than rhino if rhino is unmodded and ember has a maxed out rare mod. all rhino needs to catch up is a common mod at the same mod drain as focus.

[Aggh]

 

I must state solid facts if i want to make a sound argument. You know those numbers aren't half assed because i showed you the formulas. I'm stating that ember needs maxed out rare mods to be on par with rhino as a tank with overheat active (so its an unfair comparison).

Also that without said rare mods, Ember (even with overheat) would be able to die before rhino would even start taking any damage.

 

This sounds completely balanced to me. Ember w/o mods cannot tank nearly aswell through her abilities as a Rhino w/o mods, but ember W maxed out rare mod can compare to Rhino w/o mods and is Definetly just a little bit better if they start out with max shields. What i didn't test is rhino with steel fiber but i'll add that in a moment since now i have slept.

 

Edit:

Now with steel fiber behind us, we can see that ember can only be a better tank than rhino if rhino is unmodded and ember has a maxed out rare mod. all rhino needs to catch up is a common mod at the same mod drain as focus.

 

No, ember needs maxed out rare mods to be better than rhino.  As it were she's almost as good despite having the ability to dish out more damage with her other abilities.

 

And no, rhino with mods still can't compare to ember with mods since focus doesn't effect iron skin.

 

Steel fiber is irrelevant since you're not really tanking all that well if you've gotten your shields wiped.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Aggh

[Rabcor]

You didn't read.

 

Rhino won't benefit from focus but will from steel fiber

 

Ember wont benefit from steel fiber but will from focus.

 

Rhino with steel fiber will take longer to die than Ember with Focus.

 

Iron skin makes you immune to disables and toxin but overheat does not.

Edited May 19, 2013 by rabcor

[JerryMouse13]

A) You do not want to be tanking with your non regenerating health.

 

B) Ember's Overheat actually does protect against disruption on lower level planets (not sure if this is a bug or what).

 

C) We still don't know if Rhino is going to be immune to both toxins and disruption. We only know that his CC immunity is bugged.

[Rabcor]

A) True, thats what health globes, trinity and cover are for.

 

B) It's probably a bug

 

C) He is supposed to be. It would be unfair if he wasn't.

Edited May 19, 2013 by rabcor

[Rabcor]

You can't post math you haven't verified and tested as an argument.

 

You don't even know and don't seem willing to test how the systems work.

 

Heck, you get the Rhino's armor value wrong.  It's 150, not 140.

 

Here's what I know:  

1) Overheat and the current iteration of Iron Skin both apply DR to shield damage.  

2) Armor does not apply to shield damage at all.

3) Overheat is affected by Focus, Iron Skin is not.

4) With a maxed out Redirection, the Rhino has 1110 shields, and the Ember has 740

 

 

Let's smack them with 100 base damage a pop and see how long their shields last.

 

Ember with no Focus: 30 damage per hit.  Takes 25 hits before armor comes into play

Rhino with current Iron Skin: 20 damage per hit.  Takes 56 hits before armor comes into play.

Ember with maxed Focus: 9 damage per hit.  Note that this is 1/2 what the Rhino takes.  83 hits.  

 

That's almost 50% more damage absorbed by shields than the Rhino.  That makes the Ember a better tank despite having lower shields.

 

You can't use math to argue how you think things work.  You need to use math to prove things.  I've just proven that Ember with maxed Focus is currently a better shield tank than the Rhino.

 

Rhino players aren't picking on Ember, they're using her as an example.  They're demonstrating that Iron Skin, which has been the signature skill for the Rhino for ages, is now much less useful.  Ember's Overheat is the only comparable skill, so they're comparing the two and finding Iron Skin lacking.

 

Please test your theories, check your data and run experiments before you attempt to use math and science to prove a point.  Vomiting a bunch of numbers onto the screen doesn't help anyone, and may mislead those you're trying to help.  If you care about science, run an experiment.

 

Rhino's armor used to be 140, i will correct this. But even if it was 150 originally wouldn't make my points invalid. it would just mean that rhino would take a tiny little bit less damage than what i had already assumed. 

1) already knew and assumed

2) already knew and assumed

3) Didn't know at time of posting but doesn't change any of my points

4)Irrelevant, i used 200% redirection instead of maxed out.

 

Your theory is correct and stems with mine. But you didn't test it any rather than i did mine. it's 45% more damage absorbed rather than 50%.

 

Now read the entire post before you start saying i'm wrong, everything i said stems with your post apart from your worthless insults. I already mentioned that Rhino will start taking HP damage much before Ember will. I also today updated to show you how Ember will be dead before Rhino will in all fair testing scenarios.

Edited May 19, 2013 by rabcor

[Aggh]

A) True, thats what health globes, trinity and cover are for.

 

B) It's probably a bug

 

C) He is supposed to be. It would be unfair if he wasn't.

A tank.  Going for cover.  Ahahahaha.  Gtfo please :|

[FallenKingErzon]

Yes because when I said "No one wants Ember nerfed", what I clearly meant was "OMG NERF EMBER NAO SHE 2GUD". Well done.

 

I did not say that at all. You claimed that she was much better than Rhino, I was saying that was no where near the case. Then I went on to say how the DE's shouldn't be changing other frames completely, rather changing them little by little, to balance them and used Ember as a example since you brought her up. So well done, right back at ya.

Edited May 19, 2013 by FallenKingErzon

[PhiZero]

Link may get reworked (possibly due to it not fitting the overall healer Frame, who knows).

 

But, this type of response is not good to hear. It's so sad to see some community members go on a nerf-this-and-that rampage when their favourites are nerfed.

 

It's better to address the concern caused by this update than to try tone down all the other Frames. Having vanilla Frames with similar abilities just takes away from the great variety and uniqueness that could be offered.

 

Trinity is my favorite warframe, and I agree that Link just does not fit into her kit at all. The other three abilities are used to support a team, while Link is just used to keep Trinity alive despite her having a long range on her abilities. They could reduce the range of her abilities to make Link more useful after its balanced, but Blessing should be the only ability in the kit that grants 100% damage reduction on a shorter duration.

[Rabcor]

I agree with that. I've been playing Trinty a lot lately, link just doesn't belong. However it's the only ability she has to save herself quickly from bad situations. She could die while casting her ulti (i think. But that could be fixed easily)

 

I don't think it's overpowered though, it doesn't last for too long and she's not immune to knockbacks so she can't solo all bosses too easily with it either (like rhino could) i do think however that it could be reworked to better fit into her ability set. But it needs to remain as something similar. for example many mmo games have had a function where you can use something i think usually called "Harm Shield" where you become immune to all damage, but you cannot attack until it wears off. That might fit rather well.

 

Another thing that would fit fairly well is if she'd create a small sphere(similar to frost, but a lot smaller) that works as a shield, but nothing can shoot inside of it and nothing can shoot outside either. Everyone inside regenerates Energy slowly(not enough to be able to spam the ability) and regenerates HP.

Edited May 20, 2013 by rabcor

[Gearb0x]

Rhino's armor used to be 140, i will correct this. But even if it was 150 originally wouldn't make my points invalid. it would just mean that rhino would take a tiny little bit less damage than what i had already assumed. 

1) already knew and assumed

2) already knew and assumed

3) Didn't know at time of posting but doesn't change any of my points

4)Irrelevant, i used 200% redirection instead of maxed out.

 

Your theory is correct and stems with mine. But you didn't test it any rather than i did mine. it's 45% more damage absorbed rather than 50%.

 

Now read the entire post before you start saying i'm wrong, everything i said stems with your post apart from your worthless insults. I already mentioned that Rhino will start taking HP damage much before Ember will. I also today updated to show you how Ember will be dead before Rhino will in all fair testing scenarios.

 

How you feel about my facts doesn't concern me.  That's the thing about facts, they're true whether you care about them or not.

 

My conclusions are not a theorized, they are based on known variables and formulas from the system you're making assumptions regarding.  Stems with?  Whatever are you trying to say with that? The only verb definition I can find with a quick google search is to turn aside (as in to "stem the tide") but that doesn't use "with". *edit* Rabcor makes a valid point in the next post.  Picking at his/her english here is stupid and childish.  The point he/she makes is obvious in context and should not have been mocked.

 

Your nitpicking my statement of "1/2" to "45%" is appreciated.  I'm certain you've made no rounding errors in your posts that I can point out shortly.  The point made, that an Ember with Focus can tank more damage with shields, is still valid.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Gearb0x

[Rabcor]

Dude why you so mad?

My conclusions are also based on known variables and formulas from the wiki. If you'd read the post you'd see it. I'm not gonna reply to you again, you're only trying to get on my nerves anyways. I already said in the post that Ember with focus can tank more damage with shields, what the hell are you even complaining about?

 

As for "stems" might be incorrect english on my behalf since a word that sounds similar in my language or "stemmir" means something along the lines of "matches up" or "fits" so i'm saying that none of the stuff you said negates anything i said. I calculated it all with the same damn formulas as you.

Edited May 21, 2013 by rabcor

[drunkpunk222]

Rhino is for pure noobs , ember sux for anyone.

[Gearb0x]

Update: Now with numbers for rhino with steel fiber.

It's just not cool. Seriously kids... "My toy broke, so i'm gonna try to break my friends toy" come on! that's childish! admit it!

look at this explanation of how iron skin is not underpowered next to overheat even if said overheat has a maxed out focus.

Here's some armor maths.

If you're too lazy to read it all. At least look at the numbers.

10/110 = 0.09

150/250 = 0.6

Rhino Without steel fiber is bold and Ember without focus is bold

Rhino With Steel fiber is underlined and Ember with max focus is underlined.

The Steel Fiber numbers are based on steel fiber mod that costs 11 mod cap (since max focus costs 11) it's +80 Armor.

lets say you get 100 damage with ember and rhino at their base armor (10 and 140).

Ember resists 9.09 taking: 90.9 dmg

Rhino: resists 60 taking: 40 dmg

Rhino: resists 72.97 taking: 27.03 dmg

Now let's take for example with overheat at 70% and 91% (ember without max focus first, and then with max focus) and rhino's iron skin at 80% there are 2 ways this might be happening and i don't know which one DE uses.

Note: (since it seemed unclear) armor only applies to health.

If calculation of abiliities damage reduction happens after armor:

90.9 * 70% = 63.63 resist Ember taking 27.27/100 dmg

90.9 * 91% = 82.7 resist, Ember taking 8.2/100 dmg (Had an error here that said 7.3 when it was supposed to be 8.2 as result)

40 * 80% = 32 resist Rhino taking 8/100 dmg

27.03 * 80% = 21.624 resist, Rhino taking 5.4/100 dmg

If calculation of abiliities damage reduction happens before armor:

30 * 0.9% = 2.7 resist Ember taking 27.3/100 dmg

9 * 0,9% = 0.81 resist Ember taking 8.19/100 dmg

20 * 60% = 12 resist Rhino taking 8/100 dmg

20 * 72.97% = 14.6 resist Rhino taking 5.4/100 dmg

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see, a Rhino with steel fiber at a comparable level to focus will resist a lot more damage than ember with a maxed out focus with their respective abiltiies enabled.

Ember has a lot less Shields than rhino, overheat has a shorter duration(2s) than iron skin and the final pointer. The real reason why iron skin outclasses Overheat as a defensive ability and always will. Even if it's bugged right now (shame on you DE) it is supposed to make you immune vs disables and toxic damage. Ember can get stunlocked easily with her overheat active and unless her AoE dmg kills everything she will die because of that; since without overheat she'll die very fast with that little damage reduction. Whereas rhino still has 140 armor which gives about 58% damage resistance without iron skin to HP loss (where ember only has 9%) and to top all that, without a maxed out focus Ember takes quite significant damage with overheat on.

Does this calm you a little bit? no more rage towards Ember? it's not like it's her fault that Rhino's iron skin got nerfed.

And besides.

That being said. i think Rhino's iron skin (apart from current bugs) is completely fine like it is. I play Rhino myself too and i love him just the way he is now (apart from current bugs) and i don't even use Steel Fiber, but i might start doing it now after i did the math on it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The one thing you can still argue about is that Armor doesn't apply to shields but i think the abilities do.

Rhino and Ember both have 200% Redirection and Vitality, Each have 500HP, Ember has 500 Shields and Rhino 750.

This means that with 100dmg shots their shields would drop this fast:

Ember/W Max Focus: 56 shots

Rhino/W Steel Fiber: 38 shots

18 shot difference.

Meaning rhino takes 97 dmg before Ember starts dropping. Then at this point by the time Rhino will die 75 shots later. Ember will die 61 shots later. Meaning that if rhino has Steel Fiber. Even if he starts hurting himself before Ember will Ember would still be the one to die first.

Total 100dmg Bullets till Death with ability active:

Ember: 117

Rhino: 131

But wait... there's more. Unmodded!

Ember:18 shots

Rhino: 38 shots

20 shot difference.

Ember takes 546 dmg before Rhino starts dropping without relying on mods(Steel Fiber/Focus). This would usually mean that by the time Rhino

would start losing health Ember would already be dead

Total 100dmg Bullets till Death:

Ember:37

Rhino:101

Which just shows you that without mods Rhino pwns Ember in the tanking area. With mods ember can take more hits before shields go down but will still die before Rhino would.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the end it's really just unfair that you compare Ember's overheat with a maxed out EXTREMELY RARE mod vs Rhino's ability without any mods to support it. Stop trying to encourage DE to nerf other Warframes because your favorite was nerfed. Nobody wins if you do that. Also worth noting (even if i took no part in it, and in fact disagree) people have been complaining for a while that Ember is weak and underpowered and useless.

 

 

Please refer to https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/39088-have-i-missed-something-or-is-armor-worthless/ before bringing up Steel Fiber.  Your creation of a "fair" testing bed is biased toward your own conclusions based on 2 points of data you're overlooking:

 

1) To get 11 points of a Steel Fiber, you would require a Rank 7 version of it.  It is much more likely that a player will have invested 57,600 credits in fusion cores to take one Focus and max it out than to take 256 Steel Fibers and combine them, using 76,800 credits (double that if you use Fusion Cores).  It costs MORE resources to make a Rank 7 Steel Fiber than a Rank 5 Focus.

 

2) Anyone who's ever referred to the thread I posted above would realize that every point spent on Steel Fiber would be better spent on Vitality.

 

Now let me address the full text of your revised argument and see if you've improved your application of the scientific method.

 

Ah, I see you adopted my phrasing.  Very nice.  Excellent accusation of childish behavior by your audience, I'm sure they'll act like adults now.

 

Excellent accusation of your audience's sloth.  It's difficult to see how you construed my recrimination of your flawed argument as a personal insult when you're so willing to insult strangers and accuse them of being lazy and childish.

 

Again, a rank 7 Steel Fiber would cost over two and half times as many fusion cores and credits as a rank 5 Focus.  This comparison is unequal and pointless.  I have thus ignored it.

 

 

You get the armor value wrong again.  You said you would correct this.  How am I supposed to take you seriously?  At least the damage mitigation for the bold text is correct.

 

Since these abilities are multiplicative, the order of execution does not matter.  You'd realize this if you hadn't fallen victim to your own rounding errors.  The end numbers are the SAME, not almost the same, not really close.  Not within 0.03 of each other.  THE SAME.

 

YOUR! MATH! IS! WRONG!

 

And in the grand tradition of science it's only revealed after critical peer review.  It doesn't MATTER which order the system executes Power DR and Armor DR towards health damage.  You'd have realized this if you were paying attention to your own calculations and executing them with the proper diligence and significant figures.

 

 

A comparable Steel Fiber would be one that only cost 57600 credits to create using Fusion Cores.  Strangely, a Rank 6 Steel Fiber does fit this cost requirement.  Plugging that mod in gets an Armor DR of 255/355.  With a Power DR of 80% we get a total multiplicative DR of roughly 85.63% .  This results in roughly 5.63 damage per 100 point hit to the Rhino's health when equipped with a rank 6 Steel Fiber and Iron Skin enabled.

 

The same diligence applied to an Ember with a rank 5 Focus gives us roughly 8.18 damage per 100 point hit to health.

 

That means that the Ember takes roughly 45% more health damage than the Rhino per hit when the Rhino is equipped with 10 points of Steel Fiber when those points should be filled with Vitality.  

 

Without that Steel Fiber, the Ember takes 8.181818(repeating) damage and the Rhino takes 8 per hit.  This damage is comparable and exactly what Rhino players are pointing out.

 

You get the armor value wrong again!  You even get the armor DR wrong this time!  Your point about Toxic damage and Knockbacks and Stuns is valid, but overwhelmed by your demonstrated incompetence in the very field your arguing.

 

NO!  I'm not calm!  Your arguments are biased and flawed, your math is horrid, your assumptions change from paragraph to paragraph and your conclusion is that everything is as it should be?  You're wrong.  Your argument is poorly designed and executed worse.  Your conclusions are ad hoc and inapplicable and demonstrate a severe failure to grasp the concepts you're blissfully fallaciously claiming mastery of!

 

AAARGH!  

 

Let's see how poorly you've butchered this next argument.  Ah, I see, to the point where I can no longer follow it.  Let me make this simple for you.

 

How much damage can each Frame take?  Let's load them both up with maxed out Vitality and Redirection and Focus.  Hell, let's give them each their Alt Helms, that gives the Rhino 25 more health and the Ember 5% less shields!  That makes him tankier and her less so!

 

Rhino with Thrakk Helm: 1110 Shields and 765 Health. Takes 20% damage on shields and 8% damage on HP.

Ember with Phoenix Helm: 703 Shields and 740 Health. Takes 9% damage on shields and 8.1818% damage on HP.

 

Net damage on Rhino: 1110/.2+765/.08 = 15112.5 total damage before dying.

Net damage on Ember: 703/.09+740/.0818 = 16857.566 total damage before dying.

 

YOU'RE WRONG YOU'RE WRONG YOU'RE WRONG, RABCOR!  THE THRICE DAMNED EMBER CAN TAKE MORE DAMAGE THAN THE RHINO.

 

You also assume that the Power DR interacts with the Armor DR at all, rather than overriding it.

 

So now that I've read your whole post and torn it to the shreds it deserves, I challenge you to do the one thing you've failed to do this whole time.

 

Prove it.

 

Prove that armor and power damage mitigation interact.

 

Find us code or video demonstrating regimented, rigorous experimentation on how the two damage resistant powers interact with armor values.  Show me that Steel Fiber is now demonstrably worth investing in.  Stop wasting my time and the time of everyone else who has read your misguided, failed, biased attempt to support your preconceived point and contribute something to this conversation you started.

 

I don't want to nerf Ember.  I just want you, Rabcor, to actually say something of worth and value or shut up about things you don't understand.

[Rabcor]

^

He mad. He so mad he forgot to bring proof to most of his arguments.

 

Out of respect for you as a fellow player i read your post, i mean you read mine after all. But i wont comment on it, i already said i'm done with replying to you since all you are trying to do is trying to get on my nerves. Luckily for me i just don't get annoyed as easily as you <3

 

(Prove it yourself that it doesn't.)

Edited May 21, 2013 by rabcor

[Deadly-Bagel]

Let me put this simply, regardless if rabcor is wrong or not.

 

He's saying that Rhino is a slightly better tank still. SLIGHTLY better. Keep in mind he has 150 armour compared to Ember's 10, and WAY more health and shields. And yet he's only a SLIGHTLY better tank? You're seriously basing your argument on that?

 

Nevermind that Overheat also does nice damage over time to everything in the immediate vicinity, squishy damage-dealer Ember is not QUITE as good a tank as hardcore tankalicious Rhino? You've got to be kidding me.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Deadly-Bagel

[Blatantfool]

Err on the side of constructive feedback. We all want to see the game improved, gentlemen.

[Deadly-Bagel]

Indeed, and I don't have a problem with the new Iron Skin. Rhino is still tankalicious.

 

He's also weak in terms of damage which I think should be improved to balance the not-so-godly IS.

[Phoenix86]

No one wants Ember nerfed. She's still honestly a little on the underpowered side. The issue is that despite that, she's still significantly better than Rhino. This is a problem.

 

^ THIS.

 

None wants Ember nerfed lol, we are happy that she is effective!!

But you need to have a wider point of view, Ember unleash 4-5 times more dmg than a Rhino will ever do, therefore it's normal that Rhino MUST and HAVE TO perform better in the "tanking department"

 

I guess all Rhinos are fine with Ember being stronger than before, they just want to be more toughter than her (and not by nerfing her, but by buffing them!)

 

Actually i'm surprised by this topic, it should have been made by Frost's users against Rhino's ones.

[GratuitousLurking]

Indeed, and I don't have a problem with the new Iron Skin. Rhino is still tankalicious.

 

He's also weak in terms of damage which I think should be improved to balance the not-so-godly IS.

 

Something I am sure EVERYONE can agree on is the somewhat lacklusterness of his Radial Smash and Rhino Stomp. Clearly, the easy way to make him more fit his role would be to tweak these abilities for greater CQC happyness, right?

 

Cause honestly gentlemen, you're arguing over repeating percents here now.