Energy Pickups Are Still A Huge Problem In Conclave. They Need A Rework!

[Rakshal]

Story time! I just had a match where an Excalibur was air meleeing around with the Bo Prime, grabbing all of the energy and doing the infamous P42W. During this match I was raging harder than I ever had in any PvP game to date. Why? BECAUSE THERE IS NO COUNTER TO P42W (specifically, Excalibur's 4)! You just die and that is it. No matter how much skill I have there is no way for me to counter this. Now, I don't attribute this to being a problem with the Bo Prime (though that was a big pain in the !), I see this as a problem with energy. Energy is simply too abundant and ruins how amazing PvP could be IMO. The energy system that we have now needs to be taken to the back of the barn and put down. I should not be seeing a 4 every minute.

 

I can't believe that I am gonna suggest this. Energy should be gain when you get a kill, and should not be gained from pick ups. Pick ups simply reward high mobility melee weapons way too much. Someone can just grab energy orbs for the entire game and just spam 4. With what I am suggesting would actually make people earn their energy. "But Rakshal, this would make the energy system like killstreaks in CoD, and that is unoriginal!" Yes, but that is a small price to pay for  a balanced functional system compared to the one we have now. And pickups aren't exactly original either.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Rakshal

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

I can't believe that I am gonna suggest this. Energy should be gain when you get a kill, and should not be gained from pick ups. Pick ups simply reward high mobility melee weapons way too much. Someone can just grab energy orbs for the entire game and just spam 4.

Like in destiny, thats like the only thing they did right there.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I would expand this somewhat. A small to moderate amount of energy should be gained on kills (10-15). More could be gained by completing the objectives, and even more through things like headshots, killstreaks, streak breaking, etc. (5-10 energy each) but this wouldn't work like CoD streaks as it wouldn't reset on death. That way a player who might not be as good could still get the chance at getting some energy.

[Thalahssalyst]

Actually pvp its beautiful and amazing.
Well nothing to do, Quake games its what people wants, i never have problems with kogakes and 4th abilities spammers, but i looks like i am a lucky boy.
Actually there is a Mod: When killing one enemie you gain X amount of energie, i dont understand or maybe i cant see the point on limiting more and more and more the warframe energy, at this point, we are going to see just valkyr because his armor flying around and shooting like before...
Fast mobility is fun... Maybe you have to wait until parkour 2.0 comes and wait, and see how fast a player can get the energy first.
There is no problem with energy system, there are people who like to play with that function and others not, everyone have the same chances to counter, but it looks like, its more easy to come here to forums and complaing about that, and not learn on how to play and counter that, Just saying.

[elele]

P42W. 

 

Are you serious? Even on the Europa map where there are the most energy spawns (5 in total), 45 sec to spawn 25 energy, that's 25X5 divided by 8 players, so 16 energy per player, every 45 seconds. 

 

How much time on average does it take for the Excal to gather 100 energy to "P42W"? Do the math. 

 

Here is the answer: 280 seconds. That's over 4 minutes! 

 

He can only "P42W" every FOUR MINUTES! 

 

I say either you have some really incompetent teammates who don't know how to collect energy, or this "P42W" is greatly exaggerated. 

[RIOT]

I'm not sure if energy per kill would be a good thing. It could promote people to camp(lol).

On top of that, it might cause newer pvpers to get even more frustrated. The better someone plays the worse it will be for everyone else.

 

 

Why not change orbs from instant gain to a gradual gain? pick up an orb and generate 25 energy over the course of 10 seconds. When energy surge kicks in, instead of giving double the amount, give us 50% faster energy orb respawns and 50% faster energy generation from orbs.



P.S until we see a fix I highly recommend using a glaive with stand ground when fighting p42Wers, especially Excalibur. absorb the hit then just toss it into their face (make sure you explode it for dat sweet extra damage).
 

Edited June 3, 2015 by RIOTx

[Nlim]

BECAUSE THERE IS NO COUNTER TO P42W (specifically, Excalibur's 4)! You just die and that is it. No matter how much skill I have there is no way for me to counter this

 

You know you could like just move out the way when one starts the cast animation. I would call that a counter. Also if you are skilled enough you could in theory be so deep in yomi that you´ll never stand where an ult goes off.

 

Of course you may argue of how good of a counter or how realistic this is but when your entire starting argument is capslock hyperbole in the likes of "IMPOSS1BL3" I don´t really feel like argueing the point since you are the one who is making the claim here and should have made a convincing argument for it from the get go.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Nlim

[rockscl]

i have a lot of luck,

 

i just went into a game wondering if i would be able to test the direct counters to p42w,  and found a guy doing the exact thing with frost under his own hosting, adding the crappy network i would eat his ultimate even if i was 50 meters from him, but the good part is that i was able to do some tests:

 

- i never saw any indicator from overcharge detector, is this working? if it is add a tilt sound, im a tenno and i have a lot of things to do so i want my suit to warn me with a sound

 

- standground does not block ultimates, and if it does, ultimates damage are above 600 since it bypassed my overshielded mag, which S*CKS, DE in the name of the seven, make this actually block ultimates

 

- sapping reach did wonders when the lag allowed me to proc the steal before he locally procced his 4

 

- i wanted to try absorb but the guy disconnected

Edited June 3, 2015 by rockscl

[Nighttide77]

Gaining energy by killing...  Sounds like that would make melee wonderful again, lol.  Take down a foe, pull out melee, start channeling, channel forever.  As well...I still think that granting energy by KO'ing an enemy just empowers players already good with the base weapons.  Take an opponent down, get energy that your opponent doesn't have, now you can slash dash and then shoot them...get more energy from that KO, slash dash & shoot...get my drift?

 

Personally, I think they need to remove energy drops on death and do away with energy surge.  I like having energy spawn pads because it makes having control over particular map points more important.

 

As well, there is a way to escape Radial Javelin: get out of its range of effect.  I've done it more than once, and many enemies have escaped what would have been +1 points for me when I've gone to use it.  Its cast time and AOE seem to be equivalent to Volt's 4th, as well.

 

Game improvements and suggestions really shouldn't be made on the grounds of lag.

 

 

- i never saw any indicator from overcharge detector, is this working? if it is add a tilt sound, im a tenno and i have a lot of things to do so i want my suit to warn me with a sound

 

Overcharge Detector works.  From what I've seen, enemies within 30m get this yellow-ish outline when they have 100 energy.  Having a unique sound pop when an enemy with 100 energy comes within 30m is an awesome idea.  Perfect, even.  Gonna throw that on the main QoL thread.

[rockscl]

Overcharge Detector works.  From what I've seen, enemies within 30m get this yellow-ish outline when they have 100 energy. 

 

could you upload a screenshot?

[Nighttide77]

could you upload a screenshot?

Sure. Not sure when I'll post. Probably some time on the 3rd.

[rockscl]

energy orbs spawn points should be locked accordingly with the number of players in game in order to keep the relative energy per player, other wise instead of investing time or fighting for energy a single player can have his ultimate without any direct confrontation, consequence, or chance for the other player to stop him from getting 100 energy

 

if the match is 1v1, there should be only 1 orb in the center of the map, or 2 orbs, one per side both in a time consuming spot

Edited June 3, 2015 by rockscl

[Thalahssalyst]

energy orbs spawn points should be locked accordingly with the number of players in game in order to keep the relative energy per player, other wise instead of investing time or fighting for energy a single player can have his ultimate without any direct confrontation, consequence, or chance for the other player to stop him from getting 100 energy

 

if the match is 1v1, there should be only 1 orb in the center of the map, or 2 orbs, one per side both in a time consuming spot

 

 

 Even on the Europa map where there are the most energy spawns (5 in total), 45 sec to spawn 25 energy, that's 25X5 divided by 8 players, so 16 energy per player, every 45 seconds. 

 

How much time on average does it take for the Excal to gather 100 energy 

 

Here is the answer: 280 seconds. That's over 4 minutes! 

 

He can only "P4" every FOUR MINUTES! 

 

^

[Rakshal]

I would expand this somewhat. A small to moderate amount of energy should be gained on kills (10-15). More could be gained by completing the objectives, and even more through things like headshots, killstreaks, streak breaking, etc. (5-10 energy each) but this wouldn't work like CoD streaks as it wouldn't reset on death. That way a player who might not be as good could still get the chance at getting some energy.

That would actually be pretty good. I was thinking simple like 25 energy on a kill and you loose it if you die. I like your much better though.

 

Are you serious? Even on the Europa map where there are the most energy spawns (5 in total), 45 sec to spawn 25 energy, that's 25X5 divided by 8 players, so 16 energy per player, every 45 seconds. 

 

How much time on average does it take for the Excal to gather 100 energy to "P42W"? Do the math. 

 

Here is the answer: 280 seconds. That's over 4 minutes! 

 

He can only "P42W" every FOUR MINUTES! 

 

I say either you have some really incompetent teammates who don't know how to collect energy, or this "P42W" is greatly exaggerated. 

Uh, last I checked a player can't take 16 energy from an energy orb. Also, on that map the player(s) with the Bo Prime have 4 energy orbs to themselves basically. P42W can happen every minute in a game. You also aren't taking into account energy surges.

 

I'm not sure if energy per kill would be a good thing. It could promote people to camp(lol).

On top of that, it might cause newer pvpers to get even more frustrated. The better someone plays the worse it will be for everyone else.

 

 

Why not change orbs from instant gain to a gradual gain? pick up an orb and generate 25 energy over the course of 10 seconds. When energy surge kicks in, instead of giving double the amount, give us 50% faster energy orb respawns and 50% faster energy generation from orbs.

P.S until we see a fix I highly recommend using a glaive with stand ground when fighting p42Wers, especially Excalibur. absorb the hit then just toss it into their face (make sure you explode it for dat sweet extra damage).

 

The problem with gradual gain would be that people could play pretty passively until they get 100 energy. However it would lessen the 4 spam by quite a bit.

I can't stand ground since a lot of the 4s one shot.

 

You know you could like just move out the way when one starts the cast animation. I would call that a counter. Also if you are skilled enough you could in theory be so deep in yomi that you´ll never stand where an ult goes off.

 

Of course you may argue of how good of a counter or how realistic this is but when your entire starting argument is capslock hyperbole in the likes of "IMPOSS1BL3" I don´t really feel like argueing the point since you are the one who is making the claim here and should have made a convincing argument for it from the get go.

Moving out of the way doesn't work since you are immediately targeted by Radial Javelin, so unlike other 4s you can't run away from it. On top of it targeting you and one shotting you, it has a fast casting time and can be casted in midair.

 

i have a lot of luck,

 

i just went into a game wondering if i would be able to test the direct counters to p42w,  and found a guy doing the exact thing with frost under his own hosting, adding the crappy network i would eat his ultimate even if i was 50 meters from him, but the good part is that i was able to do some tests:

 

- i never saw any indicator from overcharge detector, is this working? if it is add a tilt sound, im a tenno and i have a lot of things to do so i want my suit to warn me with a sound

 

- standground does not block ultimates, and if it does, ultimates damage are above 600 since it bypassed my overshielded mag, which S*CKS, DE in the name of the seven, make this actually block ultimates

 

- sapping reach did wonders when the lag allowed me to proc the steal before he locally procced his 4

 

- i wanted to try absorb but the guy disconnected

Frost is a little different than Excalibur since his 4 is more telegraphed and has a slower casting animation making it easier to get away from, rather than it just targeting you and killing you half a second later.

 

-Yup, I had Overcharge Detectors on as well, not glow or anything was shown. If it is working then it needs to be way easier to see.

 

energy orbs spawn points should be locked accordingly with the number of players in game in order to keep the relative energy per player, other wise instead of investing time or fighting for energy a single player can have his ultimate without any direct confrontation, consequence, or chance for the other player to stop him from getting 100 energy

 

if the match is 1v1, there should be only 1 orb in the center of the map, or 2 orbs, one per side both in a time consuming spot

That would be good too, but I still think I like Wii's idea the best.

[Thalahssalyst]

About OP.
You are looking for a normal shooter, where energy need to have a BIG LIMIT, and skill without 1 shoot?
My question is, why you say "P4TW? If you can do that, but you dont want, there is a lot of thing to prevent a player to take energy orbs, map control its something that most of the player are missing.
Because you dont like the idea of players using their skills, it dont prevent you to counter that collecting the orbs and killing that people, but if you just kill, waiting for other players to dont use a mechanic , there is something wrong.
About energy, is not really abundant, how elele say, there is 8 players, if 7 are looking for energy and you dont prevent for it, and still you have problem with that, from that 7 people, maybe one with luck can press 4 to win.
Maybe need more practice on this new 2.0...
Doing a big limit on energy, takes away warframes in choice about differents ways to play.


 

[R3DBelmont456]

 

That would actually be pretty good. I was thinking simple like 25 energy on a kill and you loose it if you die. I like your much better though.

 

Uh, last I checked a player can't take 16 energy from an energy orb. Also, on that map the player(s) with the Bo Prime have 4 energy orbs to themselves basically. P42W can happen every minute in a game. You also aren't taking into account energy surges.

 

The problem with gradual gain would be that people could play pretty passively until they get 100 energy. However it would lessen the 4 spam by quite a bit.

I can't stand ground since a lot of the 4s one shot.

 

Moving out of the way doesn't work since you are immediately targeted by Radial Javelin, so unlike other 4s you can't run away from it. On top of it targeting you and one shotting you, it has a fast casting time and can be casted in midair.

 

Frost is a little different than Excalibur since his 4 is more telegraphed and has a slower casting animation making it easier to get away from, rather than it just targeting you and killing you half a second later.

 

-Yup, I had Overcharge Detectors on as well, not glow or anything was shown. If it is working then it needs to be way easier to see.

 

That would be good too, but I still think I like Wii's idea the best.

 

 

I agree with most of this... it's mostly problematic in FFA and with frames that have an instakilling 4 ability... and if you think excals 4th is annoying, try nothing but hysteria spam the entire match... I was in this one game where I had 22 oro and I only needed 3 more oro to win, along comes a valkyr into the game and just goes nuts spamming hysteria and lunging into the cluster F**K that people tend to form either in the middle or a corner of the map, and was getting kills left and right, when it'd wear out she'd just fling around and get 2 balls of energy and then do it over again, it was Major BS... she won in less than one minute using this strategy (from 0-25)... and all I could do was run away so that she wouldn't get a free kill on me :/ . As of late I've been seeing more Valkyries use this tactic in FFA so it just goes from a free for all survival of the fittest to a match of Juggernaut, where everyone runs away from the OP target while trying to kill it...

Edited June 3, 2015 by R3DBelmont456

[Rakshal]

About OP.

You are looking for a normal shooter, where energy need to have a BIG LIMIT, and skill without 1 shoot?

My question is, why you say "P4TW? If you can do that, but you dont want, there is a lot of thing to prevent a player to take energy orbs, map control its something that most of the player are missing.

Because you dont like the idea of players using their skills, it dont prevent you to counter that collecting the orbs and killing that people, but if you just kill, waiting for other players to dont use a mechanic , there is something wrong.

About energy, is not really abundant, how elele say, there is 8 players, if 7 are looking for energy and you dont prevent for it, and still you have problem with that, from that 7 people, maybe one with luck can press 4 to win.

Maybe need more practice on this new 2.0...

Doing a big limit on energy, takes away warframes in choice about differents ways to play.

 

Map control is something you can only do easily with Bo Prime. The current energy system is way to abundant, especially on maps like Freight Line, and rewards passive play rather than actually going out and killing things yourself. Ultimate powers should only be seen a few times a game, I shouldn't see ultimate powers casted every minute to 3 minutes.

[Thalahssalyst]

Map control is something you can only do easily with Bo Prime. The current energy system is way to abundant, especially on maps like Freight Line, and rewards passive play rather than actually going out and killing things yourself. Ultimate powers should only be seen a few times a game, I shouldn't see ultimate powers casted every minute to 3 minutes.

First one, no, i use skana and glaive p, and i can be more fast picking energy.

Second one, maybe, but already its limited about how many people are looking for energy, rarely i see the same player using his powers, if they take energy and make the 4th skill few times, slash dash and other warframes skills need 1 shot kill 100%.

[rockscl]

Map control is something you can only do easily with Bo Prime. 

 

 

this is more or less the distribution of energy in freighline, how can a single player control the entire map in any condition that doesnt imply the enemy team giving zero f*cks about energy?

[Rakshal]

 

this is more or less the distribution of energy in freighline, how can a single player control the entire map in any condition that doesnt imply the enemy team giving zero f*cks about energy?

That sadly happens more often than it should. I get into a game where everyone is not paying attention to the person taking all of the energy, and I can't do anything about it even though I know he/she is taking all of the energy because that person has a much better mobility weapon than I do. Adding an alternative to pickups would allow everyone to get energy, and fix the problem of having someone spam 4 every minute or so.

[Nighttide77]

So... Overcharge Detectors causes opponents whom have 100 energy to have a hazy outline that has the color of their warframe's energy.  It doesn't work on allies.

 

I got two different people to help me get a screenshot of it working...both used black energy...  You guys and your black energy...lol.  Y'all know who you are.

 

 

You guys see the little lines on the edges of the Excal?  The lines that make him look a little furry?  They are also in motion, so it's not hard to see it's not a graphics glitch.

 

Hmm...  I think I'd have to make another suggestion on the main thread that the outline from the mod should be at least twice its size to be noticeable enough.

[-InV-igo95862]

So... Overcharge Detectors causes opponents whom have 100 energy to have a hazy outline that has the color of their warframe's energy.  It doesn't work on allies.

 

I got two different people to help me get a screenshot of it working...both used black energy...  You guys and your black energy...lol.  Y'all know who you are.

 

 

...black energy... still not fixed. I saw it on every warframe.

[Nighttide77]

...black energy... still not fixed. I saw it on every warframe.

 

Yeah...  It's noticeable enough when Volts or Excals use their ults, so it doesn't really hurt my gameplay.  Still kinda weird to me, heh.  I prefer my energy to look inferno-orange-red.

[rockscl]

 

 

 

thats really too subtle imo

[Nighttide77]

thats really too subtle imo

 

Yeah, I think so, too.