May 19Th: Hot Feedback Topics

[K1LLZ0NE]

I don't think the rank locked warframe part should be taken in consideration for this, but I still think that godmode is too much. And with such ease to use it and go through everything, and be able to use it again very soon after, too. Like in my other post, 95% damage or something of the kind would make it more fitting. Something that makes him STILL take damage, but low.

 

Okay, well think of it this way.  In most games (no matter what kind) higher level gear is better than lower level gear.  Why can the same not be true about Warframe?  Look at the Hek and the Gorgon.  Both are in the top of their fields as damage dealers.  The Gorgon even has the highest DPS in the game!

 

Also, what about other similar abilities?  Is it just Rhino's Iron Skin or do you want all abilities that allow for some kind of "immunity" to damage to be nerfed?

Edited May 20, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[KushalaDaora]

Armor only affects health.

I'm not tanking with unrecoverable health.

About the Armor part, I meant about that comment I quoted saying that Ember would survive more than Rhino in the end, but Ember has much less armor, making her die sooner when they both lose their shields. But this armor thing is not what I really want to discuss about, just the damage reduction part.

[KushalaDaora]

Okay, well think of it this way.  In most games (no matter what kind) higher level gear is better than lower level gear.  Why can the same not be true about Warframe?  Look at the Hek and the Gorgon.  Both are in the top of their fields as damage dealers.  The Gorgon even has the highest DPS in the game!

I think of the rank locking in this game more of a ''Don't use this too early'' thing. You can reach rank 2 as long as you use more than just one frame and three weapons, not even alot more, but okay.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

What about Rhino's armor though?

 

Thanks for telling me a proper answer as to why they dislike 80% armor reduction, though. But I still think godmode is too much to complain about, maybe something like 95% damage reduction, where they'll take minimal damage, and still tank stuff well, but have to take cover at some point to recharge a part of their shields. That'll be proper, and more fair than a full invulnerability.

rhino's armor only affects health, which is the same amount ember has. unmodded, if you take HP damage, 100 damage again, ember takes 9, then reduced by 9%, which is 8.19 , rhino takes 20, which then is reduced by his armor, which is 60% reduction, which means he takes 12 damage. still worse than ember. (and I thought IS now only affects shields?)

 

edit: Also, you shouldn't tank with HP since it's much harder to recover, IS's big thing was that you could regen shields with it, then tank with the shields again.

Edited May 20, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[goozilla]

 

And what I personally feel is true tanking *Warning: OPINIONS AHEAD*, damage reduction. Ember can do this to an extent but he doesn't have the tanky base stats to make it truly viable. Rhino does! Except until now he wasn't a damage reduction tank, he was an 'invulnerability tank' which sounds absurd.

 

Ember's Overheat with a maxed focus grants 91% DR, to both health and shields. Ember also has 300 shields, with more mobility than Rhino. Guess what? They both can use Redirection.

 

And don't even mention armor. Armor is trash past Ceres.

 

Also, read https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/46710-rhino-vs-ember-durability-analysis/#entry474061

It has plenty of insight on how the DR actually works.

[eXeFTW]

Okay, but how many enemies can you kill in those 7 seconds?  Theoretically, as many as you want.  Lets look at Banshee's ult for a sec (only because of the better range and the more probability of this actually happening).  Her ult lasts 7 sec at max.  Now, if there are 5 enemies within her range she will kill all of them assuming they are low - mid level.  Now, if there are 6000 enemies in her range, again same assumptions, they will all die.  This is why ult like this are hard to compare directly to Iron Skin.

Indeed they are! =)

[KushalaDaora]

Thanks for your opinions, though. I was expecting less helpful comments (no offense) but I guess I understimated this game's community when it may come to reasoning properly.

[Unknown924]

That's interesting. I wasn't aware of that.

Mind you, not being able to tank an average grineer mook spawn is still pretty bad for the tank frame.

Yeah, if Frost Prime was not coming with U8 I would probably be grinding for a Frost right now.

Since you have more experience with Rhino in high level areas than I do, would the idea of having his shields constantly charge while Iron Skin is active help at all? In low level areas I found the shield restore side effect from the old Iron Skin having a very significant effect on my playstyle and when I used the ability.

[K1LLZ0NE]

Indeed they are! =)

 

I know I used 2 extreme examples but I was just trying to get a point across.  Sure, Iron Skin lasts a lot longer than any other ult.  But that is because of the nature of the ability.  It doesn't deal massive amounts of damage.  It protects from massive amounts of damage.  The way I see it powers that deal large amounts of damage are somewhat polar opposites of Iron Skin.  Does this mean it shouldn't be in the game?  No.  This just better emphasizes why it is needed.

Edited May 20, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Yeah, if Frost Prime was not coming with U8 I would probably be grinding for a Frost right now.

Since you have more experience with Rhino in high level areas than I do, would the idea of having his shields constantly charge while Iron Skin is active help at all? In low level areas I found the shield restore side effect from the old Iron Skin having a very significant effect on my playstyle and when I used the ability.

Honestly, I'm not sure. I want to say yes, but the regen would have to be pretty high in order to outpace the incoming DPS, otherwise it does little more than slow the rate of shield loss.

It would probably allow Rhino to duck back into cover for a second or two, then pop back out and continue fighting, which would be a huge improvement to the current system. Still not as great as "charge into the fight, pop IS, shields regen -> you're back at 100% once IS wears off" was though.

[Mak_Gohae]

I was just doing some testing in ceres with dudes 25-30 and i found out something interesting about radial blast.

It seems like the closer that you are to the targets the less damage the enemy takes.

With a rank 4 focus Blasting enemies at range i easily did half damage to anything between 25-30.

But if i ran right up to them the damage was like 20% at most which is exactly the same damage it would do if you Radial Blast at close range without any focus.

 

So it appears that the problem people have with this power is that since it has a shorter range people just ran up to the enemy and ended up with little damage.

It appears that to perfectly use this power one needs to learn the range of it and hit it as far as possible to cause the most damage. Or simply dont run that close to the enemy.

[RaptorSix]

Here's an idea for Rhino:



I thought of a small thing, give me some thoughts on this. Instead of Iron Skin and Ability 4 (can't remember what it's called), combine them into one Ability sort of along these lines:



You press the button to cast, it takes the 100 (or something) Energy. You become invincible for several seconds (maybe 10?) and also you make every enemy in a certain radius (a rather large one, I would say) attack you. It would work a bit like "pulling Aggro" in WoW. It would put enemies in close range, so you can use a melee weapon (if you solo) or it would give your team an opportunity to focus fire and effects into one area.



I thought it could be called like "Warcry" or "Taunt" or something. I reckon this, along with a maybe larger radius for the Ground Punch thing could put Rhino back on the map as a primary tank and make his abilities more "teamy".



Also what brings this, is the removal of Iron Skin completely, so a different skill would have to replace it, preferably a defensive one.



Maybe an expensive skill, where you regen health and shields quickly (or only shields) even under fire?



Any thoughts on this?

[K1LLZ0NE]

Here's an idea for Rhino:

-snip-

 

While I agree that an aggro effect would be amazing, the problem is that some just don't like the idea of "invulnerability".  

Edited May 20, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I was just doing some testing in ceres with dudes 25-30 and i found out something interesting about radial blast.

It seems like the closer that you are to the targets the less damage the enemy takes.

With a rank 4 focus Blasting enemies at range i easily did half damage to anything between 25-30.

But if i ran right up to them the damage was like 20% at most which is exactly the same damage it would do if you Radial Blast at close range without any focus.

 

So it appears that the problem people have with this power is that since it has a shorter range people just ran up to the enemy and ended up with little damage.

It appears that to perfectly use this power one needs to learn the range of it and hit it as far as possible to cause the most damage. Or simply dont run that close to the enemy.

So wait. You have to run focus, a mod that Rhino otherwise derives little benefit from (stomp damage is barely existing as it is, a 500% increase probably wouldn't do much much less the 30% you're getting from focus, charge bugs out too much to deal damage anyway, IS obviously gets nothing from focus) and doesn't have the polarity for, and then you have to use RB at the perfect range otherwise radial blast damage falls off sharply?

Welp, that's a pretty clear indictment of RB's viability.

[RaptorSix]

While I agree that an aggro effect would be amazing, the problem is that some just don't like the idea of "invulnerability".  

 

I know what you mean, mate. The damage reduction wouldn't have to be 100% anyway. My main point is that Iron Skin-ish ability would be more suited as a Lvl 3/4 Ability rather than 2. 

 

The trade off for invulnerability would be that every enemy in vicinity would start attacking you. Which would put you into a serious position when eventually the power runs out and everybody is onto you. I meant it as a boost when all teammates could focus fire into one area, making the ability more as a team boost, rather than an individual one.

[K1LLZ0NE]

I know what you mean, mate. The damage reduction wouldn't have to be 100% anyway. My main point is that Iron Skin-ish ability would be more suited as a Lvl 3/4 Ability rather than 2. 

 

The trade off for invulnerability would be that every enemy in vicinity would start attacking you. Which would put you into a serious position when eventually the power runs out and everybody is onto you. I meant it as a boost when all teammates could focus fire into one area, making the ability more as a team boost, rather than an individual one.

 

My only problem with this statement is that without 100% damage reduction, and a taunt on all the enemies, would be get slaughtered.  It's already bad enough without having absolutely every enemy in the room on you. 

[Unknown924]

So wait. You have to run focus, a mod that Rhino otherwise derives little benefit from (stomp damage is barely existing as it is, a 500% increase probably wouldn't do much much less the 30% you're getting from focus, charge bugs out too much to deal damage anyway, IS obviously gets nothing from focus) and doesn't have the polarity for, and then you have to use RB at the perfect range otherwise radial blast damage falls off sharply?

Welp, that's a pretty clear indictment of RB's viability.

Plus you could probably get the same result with a Fraggor jump attack and you don't have to pay energy.

Having the attack of a weapon be more effective than an ability should have set off alarm bells for DE a while ago - especially since from what I heard the reason we don't weapons like flamethrowers or rocket launchers is that DE didn't want abilities to be overshadowed by aoe weapons.

[Mak_Gohae]

So wait. You have to run focus, a mod that Rhino otherwise derives little benefit from (stomp damage is barely existing as it is, a 500% increase probably wouldn't do much much less the 30% you're getting from focus, charge bugs out too much to deal damage anyway, IS obviously gets nothing from focus) and doesn't have the polarity for, and then you have to use RB at the perfect range otherwise radial blast damage falls off sharply?

Welp, that's a pretty clear indictment of RB's viability.

 

No, dude, the point isnt Focus the point is the positioning of the Radial Blast when cast.

A Rank 4 Focus cast at melee range took maybe 20% damage at most but if you cast it at a longer range the Radial Blast, apparently, hit for it's actual damage.

 

So, i dont know if this is a bug or intended but to bring out the most damage from Radial Blast you actually have to activate it at a distance.

Running up to melee range doesnt seem to be the way to use it.

 

 

Plus you could probably get the same result with a Fraggor jump attack and you don't have to pay energy.

Having the attack of a weapon be more effective than an ability should have set off alarm bells for DE a while ago - especially since from what I heard the reason we don't weapons like flamethrowers or rocket launchers is that DE didn't want abilities to be overshadowed by aoe weapons.

 

I tested this as well.

A base Scindo, meaning no damaging mods, did barely anything and at most maybe reaching 15% if you actually smack some one with the jump.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[KvotheTheArcane1]

No, dude, the point isnt Focus the point is the positioning of the Radial Blast when cast.

A Rank 4 Focus cast at melee range took maybe 20% damage at most but if you cast it at a longer range the Radial Blast, apparently, hit for it's actual damage.

 

So, i dont know if this is a bug or intended but to bring out the most damage from Radial Blast you actually have to activate it at a distance.

Running up to melee range doesnt seem to be the way to use it.

but you more or less have to, to get in range in the first place. if you have to place it perfectly, that says something, that it needs to be fixed and it's not very good right now.

 

edit: it'd be good if it was fixed (if it's bugged) but that still doesn't justify it's cost of 75 energy, so again, rhino does need to be rebalanced.

Edited May 20, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[K1LLZ0NE]

No, dude, the point isnt Focus the point is the positioning of the Radial Blast when cast.

A Rank 4 Focus cast at melee range took maybe 20% damage at most but if you cast it at a longer range the Radial Blast, apparently, hit for it's actual damage.

 

So, i dont know if this is a bug or intended but to bring out the most damage from Radial Blast you actually have to activate it at a distance.

Running up to melee range doesnt seem to be the way to use it.

 

 

 

I tested this as well.

A base Scindo, meaning no damaging mods, did barely anything and at most maybe reaching 15% if actually smack some one with the jump.

 

I get what you're saying.  And it has to be a bug.  Radial Blast (I believe) is supposed to be a close range AoE.  Not some weird combination of melee and ranged.

[Lord.Finster]

I was just doing some testing in ceres with dudes 25-30 and i found out something interesting about radial blast.

It seems like the closer that you are to the targets the less damage the enemy takes.

With a rank 4 focus Blasting enemies at range i easily did half damage to anything between 25-30.

But if i ran right up to them the damage was like 20% at most which is exactly the same damage it would do if you Radial Blast at close range without any focus.

 

So it appears that the problem people have with this power is that since it has a shorter range people just ran up to the enemy and ended up with little damage.

It appears that to perfectly use this power one needs to learn the range of it and hit it as far as possible to cause the most damage. Or simply dont run that close to the enemy.

If this is actually true that would mean that it's completely counterintuitve and exactly the opposite of what it should be.

No other AoE spell works that way and without an indicator for range it's a horrible mechanic.

[goozilla]

While the concern for Radial Blast is its ability to CC, its range, and its damage, its still essentially a S#&$ty CC move.

 

You jump Fragor not for damage, but for down + chill. By the time you're done with Radial Blast and kill one guy with your gun, everything else you knocked down, more or less, has already gotten back up and resumed shooting you in the face.

[Mak_Gohae]

While the concern for Radial Blast is its ability to CC, its range, and its damage, its still essentially a S#&$ty CC move.

 

You jump Fragor not for damage, but for down + chill. By the time you're done with Radial Blast and kill one guy with your gun, everything else you knocked down, more or less, has already gotten back up and resumed shooting you in the face.

 

Well, the range is bigger and you cannot be interrupted.

[Unknown924]

I just did some testing of my own with an unmodded Fragor and a base level Radial Blast. It took place in the Terminus starting mission.

Radial Blast: Point blank did 1/3rd or less of a lancer's life. At farther ranges the damage did increase. Several times I reduced the lancer to a sliver of health and may have even killed one outright.

Fragor jump attack: Did very little damage to lancers in its aoe. However, if the head of the Fragor hit the lancer it was always an instant kill.

I should note the damage ramp up for Radial Blast seemed fast - one lancer could be reduced to half health and the lancer almost right behind him reduced to a sliver. It is possible at the very edge of Radial Blast's range it could be a one hit kill on lancers, I was not able to be precise enough.

I would call the behavior a bug, especially given how fast the damage goes up. It would make more sense for the damage to start high and fall off quickly near the max range of the ability.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Unknown924

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Well, the range is bigger and you cannot be interrupted.

true, but it's not really worth the risk, esp for 75 energy, that's the biggest factor. for 25, or even 50 it'd be worth it imo, but at 75 it's way too expesnive (and a fragor jump is has a better risk/reward imo)