May 19Th: Hot Feedback Topics

[Seanjuju]

Rhino Feedback

I understand that the community has been very vocal about Iron Skin and I'm sort of surprised to see an idea similar to mine presented 

However:

-I feel that Iron Skin should scale to the user in a way. 30-45% of the sum of HP and Shield Values + 500

-A duration solely based on damage taken may be problematic, after a time which should increase with mod rank, the skin should begin to take constant damage

-In the same sense, the Thrak alternate helm needs a rework that scales or, ideally, effects energy in a positive way.

-Rhino stomp requires a larger radius and additional utility such as reducing movement speed for considerable time, increasing damage taken by those effected, or staggering enemies regularly for a time.  

-Any changes to Rhino skills shouldn't include damage but utility.

 

Once a change to a frame is implemented (or a new frame, introduced), I believe there should be a single thread for constructive feedback/additional suggestions.

 

DE, In their infinite wisdom, should never be compelled by the community to change a frame into something it was never intended to be.

[Unknown924]

One of my main concerns right now is what happens if DE looks at the abilities of other frames the same way they looked at the Rhino.

If they decide an absolute invulnerability, regardless of cost or duration, is not wanted in the game, then other frames WILL be affected. Frost and Trinity will probably get damage reduction or a flat cap applied to their skills. How would Frost players feel if globe only reduced the damage of shots passing though by 80% or the globe could only absorb so much damage. How would Trinity players feel about that being applied to link?

What would be next? How about Chaos only having a % chance to affect enemies?

Then stealth would be looked at. Currently stealth allows players to recover shields in combat and avoid damage while standing next to enemies, or just avoid combat all together. What would happen to stealth? Would the durations be cut? Would the ability to recover shields while stealthed be removed?

[Zarozian]

There was totally nothing wrong with Rhino before the update and nerf....why is everything so complicated now?!!!!!!

 

I saw a recent video starring Mag and I saw a whole bunch of new mods such as:

 

Shock Absorber

Diamond Skin

Antitoxin 

Cold Blooded

Flame Repellent

Lightning Rod

Resilient Focus

Master Thief

Warm Coat

 

Just what the hell is going on?!!!

[Zarozian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_DVCcswBq0

 

I don't like how Frost is on Diamond Skin.

 

Pause at 1:37-1:40. It will show you all the mods I listed in my post above. Have it in HD and in full screen.

[7.T.]

    Just want to say that I've read every single post in this thread (yes, really) and I have to say this about Rhino's Iron Skin: If a change is required, in my own opinion, I agree with and believe that reducing max duration to 10 seconds, (max 15 with max Continuity) and/or making it cost 75 or even 100 energy would be the best way to go. Just want to put that out there if it makes any difference lol. Anyway, thanks to D.E. for your hard work. Looking forward to update 8!

 

EDIT: Also thought I should mention that the addition of aggro to the above sounds fun and would be helpful for melee players like myself but I'd understand that the aggro addition might be OP under these circumstances.

Edited May 22, 2013 by 7.T.

[OxexRaclir]

There was totally nothing wrong with Rhino before the update and nerf....why is everything so complicated now?!!!!!!

 

I saw a recent video starring Mag and I saw a whole bunch of new mods such as:

 

Shock Absorber

Diamond Skin

Antitoxin 

Cold Blooded

Flame Repellent

Lightning Rod

Resilient Focus

Master Thief

Warm Coat

 

Just what the hell is going on?!!!

Prepare for new and useless rare mods this friday.

 

"Boy I sure wish I had a mod that took 9 energy and allowed me to stand in environmental fire hazards." Said nobody ever.

[Zonzai]

 

7) ... but what about Rhino?

He will be reviewed and changed!

 

May 21st @ 2:00 PM EST UPDATE:

The following changes are being made:

1) He will now again have full invulnerability, but up to a damage (d) cap of: 200 d, 400 d, 600 d, and 800 d based on mod rank.  Thoughts?

2) He now aggro's enemies to draw fire by using Iron Skin, as enemies now see him as a big threat!

 

Expect these in an upcoming Update.

 

Thank you for the information.  I knew that you would see reason and I really like the aggro effect.  I'm a bit skeptical that even 800 will be enough though.  That would make the shield go down fast against tough mobs since you are aggroing them all.  If the cost were reduced maybe?

 

Anyway, thank you.  You handled that like a pro.  Again.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Zonzai

[battlelamb]

7) ... but what about Rhino?

He will be reviewed and changed!

 

May 21st @ 2:00 PM EST UPDATE:

The following changes are being made:

1) He will now again have full invulnerability, but up to a damage (d) cap of: 200 d, 400 d, 600 d, and 800 d based on mod rank.  Thoughts?

2) He now aggro's enemies to draw fire by using Iron Skin, as enemies now see him as a big threat!

 

Expect these in an upcoming Update.

 

8) ... and Banshee? What about her Sound Quake?

 

I believe the damage Sound Quake now does is working as intended... but being vulnerable during the casting animation is problematic. Will inform and suggest invulnerability be returned. 

 

May 21st @ 2:00 PM EST UPDATE:

1) There was a bug where enemy's animation wasn't being affected by her sound quake, this has been fixed. Enemies will not be able to walk through the Sound Quake to attack Banshee. Although, some at a distance may be able to, so be strategic in your Sound Quake usage.

 

Expect these in an upcoming Update.

 

Now thats something,

--- (Rhino) I suggest it would be best if the power is affected by Focus, right? But aggro superb...

--- How about a new energy system?

[Sophet]

Well it's really kinda weird, that like seven warframes have some sort of godmode (volt's wall and escaping really fast (i suppose he really likes his bacon), Ash-Loki have invis, Trinity also there, Saryn's moult, Frost with his globe and i suppose you can count Nyx there), when your dedicated tank runs in the middle of action, stands for five seconds and then starts to slowly crowl away, thinking of the things that went wrong

 

Actually wouldn't it be an elegant solution for IS to just instantly regen shields on cast and allow shield to regen and benefit from armor for the duration? That's kinda the same 75% mitigation, like 160 shields per sec active regen, a bit of logic there for the foil to be on top of everything, armor mod will become useful and a neat instant effect to use in the middle of combat. And not that hard to balance since you can tweak any number. I think that'll be rather pleasant from the point of mentality, you know, THE tank feeling watching your shields drop and regen like crazy and thinking for yourself "come on, hold on a little longer, you know you can handle it". I suppose there's more fun in this, than just "oh, i am invincible, INVINCIBLE I SAY" for an old version, or the new, which actually isn't any different to just warframe without abilities, just your shields and health drop slower. Surely i'll join to the voice of crowd about disrupt immune, it's just shamefully to meet disruptors and feel them whispering "come here little horsie, you can't run". And allow those active shields to take toxic damage insted of health would be nice. Here, technically no godmode, but you'll straight out regen through weak fellows and have the feeling of your armor denting under intencive fire.

 

P.S. - Wow, my grammar really is that bad, three edits already, should practice my english more

Edited May 22, 2013 by Sophet

[vonDirk]

Fist of all, thank you for meeting us half-way about Iron Skin. But now it's time to do another math.

As already mentioned before, single enemy on higher maps (like Pluto) will rip through 800-damage shield in few seconds. Well, how often you see single enemy there? Well, anywhere? There are always hords of them - really, hords. When i was testing Rhino with new Iron Skin - i fall down on low-level mission because I couldn't hide anywhere - there are Greenirs everywhere! And I died - not so fast and not without struggling - but pretty fast. And Volt - Volt, who can't tank - didn't take any serious amount of damage just because he was too fast. That's right - Volt is kinda fragile warframe and dies easily - but he can get 830 shields without any serious efforts, he still have his Electric Shield, which is incredible, his Speed Boost, like "Aaaaaaaaaarrrrrghhh, i need to get out of here!" - and he COULD get our of there. Enemies just blink and can't do nothing - except there are locked doors or something, but then "Overcharge" - and all angry Greenirs are fried angry Greenirs now. With special iron flavor! Tasty!

But it's not my point. Getting aggro with old Iron Skin - Oh my god, that's AWESOME! That what i wanted and i was needed to. To be some kind of Loky's Decoy or Saryn's Molt, but moving, shooting and screaming :) But to be honest - 800 damage is nothing even for Venus. When i was on Venus with my Rhino, this st... kinda jerky creature with four legs and that OHKO grenades, that leaves you with 55 health even with Iron Skin turned on, in one hit - can spam them once more after few seconds (I was killed while I was going to revive my fallen teammate, who didn't survive explosion). And i have 870 shields and 565 Health. And was killed in 5 seconds. Yeah, you can tell me, that i'm fool and don't know how to play... But it's team play game. I'm Big Bro Rhino, who always will stand between nasty monsters and his little brothers and sisters, and stand on point "Try to deal with someone, who have the same size as you!" (well, it not as really the same size, but Rhino is bigger than any other warframes, so it's looks like fair enough). So, that's another point - i went to the same mission with my Frost, with the same guy as teammate - and we killed Jackal like it was little puppy. Because Snow Globe PROTECTS from OHKO grenades. Ok, I went to the same mission with my Banshee - and we killed Jackal in 10 seconds or so, even without allowing him to get to his feets (I love Sonar!). So, Frost can smash Jackal like puppy. Banshee - too. Trinity - well, it's Trinity, you know.. Not sure about Volt, or Nyx, but Excalibur is fine against Jackal too (used him to farm Rhino's parts before, Radial Blind is freakin' awesome!). As I know, Volt's Shield protects him from ranged Damage (like Jackal's miniguns) and give additional electrical damage (nice against Corpus and MOAs, you know.. And Jackal is kinda Corpus boss...). Nyx can stun for 2 seconds with her Mind Control for 25 energy (yeah, control doesn't working on bosses, but STUN - does!) and so on.

So, what's the point - even not such hard boss as Jackal is like a trial for overcharged Rhino - well, if Rhino want to take care about his teammates. Yeah, I can solo Jackal even with Rhino - just need to be more careful, like anyone do, spam Rhino Stomp when needed - like any other warframe can use their abilities, but they are not rank-locked frames, you know?

-----

Let's look in other side: I'm new to Warframe Game. I need something to be interested in. 

Excalibur can do Slash Dash, Super Jump and Radial Javelin (Radial Blind isn't suit this,because you know, i'm newbie, i don't know, why i need such move - and that's true, when i started with Excalibur i was think, that this ability is useles). It's impressive.

Frost put Snow Globe and Avalanche - hell yeah!

Volt is super-fast and evaporates nearby enemies with Overcharge. Cool!

Mag is pull things to troll people just to pull them back when they are running somewhere and "Mag is hungry. Mag CRUSH!!!" (you know,what i'm talking about).

Trinity is only one, who can regain energy and health, and she have invincibility, that redirects damage and effects to the target.

Banshee have Sonic Boom (knockdown even Ancients, hit through walls, cheap and spammable), Sonar and Sound Quake (quite impressive and will kill anything on low levels)

Nyx can control Ancients, MOAs, every target she wants except bosses, can make Chaos - reall chaos! And can be invulnerable with her Ult (and it look cool, you know? Meditation with full maddnes around).

Ember is HOT! Panic, fire everywhere and flame - alot of people like fire powers (they look bright and powerful).

Loki - he is fast, invisible, have teleport and can swith himself with Decoy. Well, he is INVISIBLE!

Ash - fast, badass look, invisible - and looks like true ninja, with stunning smoke bomb and so on.

Saryn - Miasma and poison. No resists, have Molt so can just shoot enemies from the safe spot without any danger.

Vauban - fast, Bastion, Tesla and Vortex... Well, you all know that, we all watched that video.

And now - Rhino. The only one rank-locked warfame. Most expensive one. The biggest one. And the slowest one. What it have?

(Let's pretend, that it's a dialog between me, newbie, and some other player, who introduce me Warframe):

Rhino Charge:

- "Isn't it... well, kinda similar to Excalibur's Slash-Dash? But 2m distance from the beggining..."

Iron Skin - *looking at the shiny warframe* Well, let's talk about it later.

Radial Blast:

-"You are nasty Greenir, are you?? Hate you >.<"

(Well, really, why Rhino have the same ability, like all Heavies have - but even without knockback? Knockdown is the same like Fragor-jumping, but knockback is different).

Rhino Stomp: 

-"Hell, yeah! Awesome! It's so... great... Wait, is that's all? They are flying for few seconds and drops down? No damage?"

-"Yep"

-"So what's the point?"

-"It helps your teammates or allow you to take a break and restore your shields... You know.."

-"So, you use your 100 energy cost just to lift some guys into the air for 6 seconds, dealing them no damage, and don't affect anyone, who will rush to you after you use your skill?"

-"Yes... That's cool, you know?"

-"Yeah, looks cool, but isn't this guy, Vauban, done the same thing, but from distance, allowing him to help his teammates without putting him into real danger, for longer duration AND with enemies affected even if they tried to get to the closed zone till duration is still active AND for 75 energy?"

-"Well... Pretty the same..."

-"And you spend 100 energy from you 150 energy pool to ability, that inferior to the 75 energy ability of this guy, who have 225 energy pool?"

*silence*

-"Well, ok, what about his second ability, Iron Skin? is it useful? I can kill someone with that ability? I can get out of there if it will be bad? Or it's some kinda great power to help other, like Trinity Blessing?"

-"Um...You know, when you activate it on Sedna/Ceres/Pluto/<any high-leveled map>, you will be killed not in 3 seconds, but in 5... Is it good for you?"

----

That's the point.

Rhino is useless in both cases - if he had 800 damage shield (its not his former glory, it's just additional shield, you know) and if we have damage reduction like now. Let's look why.

There is Terminus. First map ever. There are ONE Greenir. He shooting at me and every hit deals 3 damage to my shields. Hey, that's almost nothing! Right? But Grakata's Speed is 20. Damage from high level Greenirs are increasing and let's count, how fast lvl 1 Greenirs from Terminus (Mercury) will take out this "invulnerability". 20 bullets 3 dmg each is 60 dmg from one lvl 1 Greenir Lancer per second. So 6 Greenir Lancers lvl 1 will rip my "invulnerability" in like 2,5 seconds. Well, not completely true, because they have awful accuracy, but if Iron Skin will get aggro - there are a lot of them who will try to get me down. So, barely, it will take like 5 seconds till my Iron Skin is gone. 5 seconds - against lvl 1 Greenirs. Maybe i'm wrong, so I will glad to hear other options of how I need to use Rhino now, if I've already have Frost, with his cool hat from today's alert, that make not-overcharged Frost more better then overcharged Rhino? Because Frost don't need to think "Hey, there are nasty Greenirs coming! I need to get cover!". He creates cover for him and his team. Frost don't need to S#&amp;&#036; "Oh my gosh, Ancient Toxic! I need somewhere to hide! Better some big boxes not far from me, because i'm so slow"... He just Freeze him. Frost don't need to think, is he have enough ammo for his gun, when he got surrounded by hordes of enemies - Avalanche will clean the weaklings and only slowed and damaged one, who survived this "Winter is Coming!" thing need to be merciless shoot into their heads.

 

My suggestion isn't much more different from anyone's others: Gives Rhino his invincibility back for 75 energy cost. You can add taunt - it will be great for CC, as he supposed to be - but ONLY with full invulnerability, or it will be second Silence - completely useless skill, especially, if you have sentinel/rushing teammate or loud weapon like HEK or something.

You can make Radial Blast to 50 energy and give it not only knockdown, but knockback - it will be great to clean place from Ancient Toxics with that ability - it will be really great. And fix his Rhino Stomp - it looks awesome, and supposed to be GREAT ability. But it doesn't.

Don't forget - we all have 60 energy for our warframe mods - and that's with Orokin Reactor. And we have only 10 mod slots. 4 of them - for abilities (if they are useful, because I almost never use Banshee's Silence - it's great for stealth, but kinda useless, because when you meet a lot of guys and they are close to the console - you are doomed to "Kill all Greenirs/Corpus" style.

[Mediave]

May 21st @ 2:00 PM EST UPDATE:

The following changes are being made:

1) He will now again have full invulnerability, but up to a damage (d) cap of: 200 d, 400 d, 600 d, and 800 d based on mod rank.  Thoughts?

2) He now aggro's enemies to draw fire by using Iron Skin, as enemies now see him as a big threat!

 

What happens after that 200/400/600/800?  Will he keep the damage resistance he currently has, or will it wear off completely?  If not, on harder missions, that 800 health will shield Rhino from only 2-3 attacks.  If this is true, and Rhino now pulls aggro with Iron Skin, this won't be a tanking skill, this will be a 50 energy suicide button.

Giving him that invincible shell for a few hits, is nice, if he keeps his damage resistance.  This also gives Rhino a reason to use Steel Fiber.  Will armor have any effect on his invincible shield?  I would hope so, as it would give Rhino players another reason for Steel Fiber, which, as far as I can tell, the majority of players, no matter their frame, simply do not use.

 

At max rank, 800 health invincibility, + 80% damage reduction + synergy with Steel Fiber, and I think that will be an agreeable change to Iron Skin.  Is Rhino getting his crowd control immunity back as well?  I feel that will be a necessity when you pull several ancients and/or elites onto you with this skill.

[Maddoc]

I apologize if this has already been addressed, but will the damage done to the Iron Skin be affected by Armor?

 

800 damage unaffected by armor is honestly only a couple short seconds of concentrated fire by more than an enemy or two

 

Additionally, will it be affected by Focus?

Edited May 22, 2013 by Maddoc

[Scoosh]

Perhaps if the damage cap is a percentage %

So it scales with enemy levels.

[Renan.Ruivo]

7) ... but what about Rhino?

He will be reviewed and changed!

 

May 21st @ 2:00 PM EST UPDATE:

The following changes are being made:

1) He will now again have full invulnerability, but up to a damage (d) cap of: 200 d, 400 d, 600 d, and 800 d based on mod rank.  Thoughts?

2) He now aggro's enemies to draw fire by using Iron Skin, as enemies now see him as a big threat!

 

Expect these in an upcoming Update.

Item #2 is indeed a very welcome feature. If goes well with his crowd-control rule if i understood #1 right. Do you mean that at max rank Iron Skin will "turn" invulnerability in when the shields are down to 800? If that's the case, i approve. Combined, both of these itens would be indeed considered a well balanced buff, and not a nerf.

What of ancient attacks though? Will disruptors still affect us or will we be immune to them again?!

If so, then i propose that their attacks only drains energy, not shields, while Iron Skin is active.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Renan.Ruivo

[LegendairyWarframe]

800 damage, can you tell use how it calculated?

Full damage? or based on armor? Does Iron Skin also temporarily super boost the armor in this case?

[Hogfather]

 

May 21st @ 2:00 PM EST UPDATE:

The following changes are being made:

1) He will now again have full invulnerability, but up to a damage (d) cap of: 200 d, 400 d, 600 d, and 800 d based on mod rank.  Thoughts?

2) He now aggro's enemies to draw fire by using Iron Skin, as enemies now see him as a big threat!

 

Expect these in an upcoming Update.

My question is this: does this replace the current way the mod works or will you be adding it to the damage reduction? So with the update when Iron Skin is used he will be invulnerable for the first X damage and then after that is eaten up for the rest of the duration he has the up to 80% damage reduction?

[fishworshipper]

800 damage immunity and all aggro?

That's a suicide button on anything past Mercury.

Edited May 22, 2013 by fishworshipper

[Ferriwind]

The Banshee fix is pretty good, imo. Idk, if Banshee users think the range nerf is too much.

 

The Rhino change is for the better, however, I think the damage cap is too limiting. Rhino Skin should give Rhino a shield regen buff and armor buff for the duration of the ability regardless of whether the damage cap breaks the invulnerability. A cushion for those monster houses or nukes(mostly due to aggro) that you can't avoid, especially in defense missions.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

-snip-

no, you take 800 damage, then IS is gone from what I understand.

[SweetDandy]

I like the idea that we should have a community feedback thread. It would allow us to voice what we think about the changes before it is actually implemented so we can avoid the rhino nerf drama again.

 

However, I believe they should have already had the community thread about changes already. For instance, they did not mention anything about the changes in the marketplace and how some items would have been gone.

 

 

I'm liking what the update is going to bring and I'm excited to see that the Rhino isn't left forgotten.

 

I also like to thank DE because they are listening to the community and not ignoring us. 

[neKroMancer]

Iron skin change is partially good, partially bad.

 

The aggro-drawing part is quite fine. It should be so for a tank whose role id to draw enemies' attention and let his teammates deal damage while he soak it up.

 

The damage cap really surprise me. Even at max 800 shield, the duration will be extremely short consider how much the AI can deliver damage in a short time when they're coming in pack. Coupled with aggro-drawing feature, Rhino will be shredded to pieces in seconds. Fixed number rarely works with utility power since fixed number has two drawbacks.

1. Turn low level play into easy mode.

2. Ineffective in higher level play.

 

Now, I see a solution for this particular problem and I'll base them on the assumption that they should be working on Pluto, not defense mission (i consider endless to be minigame), and it should works with aggro-drawing feature.

 

Dynamic DR.

 

More enemies, more damage mitigation. The effectiveness of Iron skin defensive feature increases with the number of enemies he manages to draw into himself. Example:

- He draws 1-3 enemies toward himself, he gets 65-70%DR

- He draws 4-6 enemies toward himself, he gets 71-80%DR

- He draws more than 6 enemies, he gets 81-90%DR

 

Shift the advantage of mod rank into shield regeneration even when receiving damage, not related to fast deflection level. Using Focus should increase shield regeneration rate when receiving damage. 

[Nehmetawy]

I think I would still push for the Damage Buffer and the Damage shield together in some form. The 800 Shield in addition to the 80% Damage reduction would give him that sorta invincible feel. Just make his shields recharge while he has the 800 shield on.

[K1LLZ0NE]

I see a lot of people would prefer some sort of % damage reduction over flat out invulnerability for a set amount of damage, like this new fix.  However, the problem with % damage reduction is that even at 90% DR, enemies can still kill you suuuuper fast.  Why?  Because you take a lot of damage QUICKLY.  Sure, it might be nice only taking 10 damage, but 10 damage x20 enemies hitting you every second is 200 damage a second.  You will be shredded in no time.

[Renan.Ruivo]

no, you take 800 damage, then IS is gone from what I understand.

I thought so as well, but that doesn't makes a modicum of sense, so i didn't even considered that to be the case.

[Gaiters]

So as I understand it Rhino skin will be false life rather than damage reduction? So it will work with the armor mod nicely. Or would except it's applied before shields.

Edited May 22, 2013 by ZEDD