May 19Th: Hot Feedback Topics

[JerryMouse13]

I disagree most heavily based on my experience in tests. It might be viable for infested where the main threat is toxics and disruptors and melee spam can carry the day, but against grineer and corpus, 80% DR is absolutely nothing to high level ranged foes.

Indeed, when I tried it during a Ceres alert (level 38-40 grineer on average), I found that I could not close to melee when under the fire of just three enemies - two lancers and a trooper. My 800 shields were wiped out before I could cross the room even with the 80%, then I started taking practically irreplacable health damage before I could get within stab range. And it wasn't a particularly large room either. Granted my redirection mod isn't maxed, but even a maxed redirection only provides, what, an extra 400 on top of that? Add in just one more lancer and I would've died messily. And as anyone who's played high level missions and especially solo'd them will tell you, it's really easy to get shot at by more than four guys.

This is also why I'm dubious as to a damage cap of 800. In my experience, 800 damage is a couple of seconds out of cover in high level play. Infested chargers hit for 100+ a swing with two swings a second, grineer DPS with those grakatas is through the roof. And the taunt function is only going to exacerbate this issue, because everyone's going to be focusing on you, just like in solo play. Don't get me wrong, I like IS having a taunt function, but it only really works with invulnerability.

The issue is that it was too easily spammed before. Hence why the most popular answer is to bump it up to 75 or 100 energy, and/or introduce a cooldown.

This solution I could see working of it was like, 1600 damage cap, with it being mitigated by 80% DR, with the DR staying even if the cap is exceeded until the timer runs out.

 

It's not just high level defense missions. It's any high level mission. The same issue comes up on Pluto or alerts in Ceres. Really, any time the enemies are above level 35, their damage is such that DR just doesn't work for effective protection.

Also, high level content is almost assuredly coming down the pipeline.

 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/47708-iron-skin-damage-mitigation-bugged/#entry486643:

 

We have not yet tested a true 80% damage mitigation in game. The release was bugged, and not reducing by the appropriate amount. The difference between a true 80% damage reduction, and the 70% we had is actually rather remarkable.

 

Additionally, why on earth would you try to close to melee range against ranged enemies? You have a gun, use it when the situation is appropriate. IS should not grant you the ability to do whatever you damn well please regardless of enemy presence, It should serve to reduce the threat of death by making you more durable.

Edited May 23, 2013 by JerryMouse13

[ArsVampyre]

I will admit that I have not. I do not find defense missions entertaining and I do not find Rhino entertaining, I see no reason to combine the two. I will yield that several continuous minutes of effective invulnerability are ineffective at defending cryopods.

I do not see defense missions as the future of the game though. I admit I'm a 'young' player insomuch as I have not been here long. Have defense missions changed radically in the course of the game? I imagine they change only with new map and enemy additions.

I invite you to continue discussing this in a civil manner without veiled ad hominems.

There are several forms of potential failure; you die, you don't reach your goal, your goal is destroyed, etc. Rescue missions, for example, involve protecting a fragile AI. You can be completely defeated even while invulnerable because it is vulnerable. You can also be overwhelmed to the point where you can't get the to your goal and exit within the timer that sometimes appears (though I haven't seen a timed mission exit in quite a while). Finally, no matter how well you mod, there is a limit to the amount of time you could be invulnerable (it was never indefinate, it just could last a long time) That time might not be enough to get through all of your attackers if you're in one of those areas where, say, high-level infested keep spawning and swarming you.

And honestly, few people just spammed iron skin. So few in fact that I never heard of it outside of reading here. Rhino frames were pretty rare as it was, IMO, because of how slow they are, and generally speaking when I played Rhino I hardly ever touched my abilities, including IS. I just shot the enemies and let my shields regen. The only times I think IS was useful was when I had to rescue a downed coop partner, who was sometimes surrounded by mobs like Disruptors or had the boss right next to them.

And frankly, defense and mobile defense are the most played missions in the game, IMO. They're where most players farm mods and materials, and xp. I don't think they solo them, but I have tried to solo as Rhino myself, with pre-nerf Iron Skin, and I couldn't do it. The pod just wasn't survivable after a bit because I couldn't kill everything before they destroyed it. Snow globe changes that a lot; I do think it's possible a Frost could solo defend the pod, depending on the enemy.

----------------------

I've also played as Trinity. I've seen more trinity players than Rhino, and I don't see people abusing Energy Vampire and Link either. I guess it could be done, in theory, but in practice I just don't think people do it that much.

Soundquake spam? Yeah, that was common.

------------------------

I guess the big thing for me is, the mobs don't care if they don't have it fair. Why should we care? We're not hurting other players because we feel super powered. Frankly, if this is all about people whining about their kill counts, they can all take a hike. If Rhino was so Overpowered because of invulnerable iron skin, why were Rhinos so rare? They were all playing solo?

Maybe, but if so, why do I care? It's no skin off my back if they can solo everything without a challenge. They're not ruining my experience. I can still play how I was and do fine (in fact, the best defense is a good offense, IMO).

[ArsVampyre]

Someone pointed out to me the possibility that the damage cap proposed is damage per hit, i.e 800 or less damage and you take no damage, 801 and you take 1 point of damage, etc, rather than 800 damage and your IS fails.

If that, I'll take it. Sure, some things may do more than 800 points of damage per hit, but that's a lot of flat damage mitigation, and honestly, if you're taking a hit from something that does more damage than your shields could take in one hit normally, shouldn't that hurt some?

Maybe not, but I'll still take it that way. As a cummulative amount, it's worse than the current setup.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/47708-iron-skin-damage-mitigation-bugged/#entry486643:

 

We have not yet tested a true 80% damage mitigation in game. The release was bugged, and not reducing by the appropriate amount. The difference between a true 80% damage reduction, and the 70% we had is actually rather remarkable.

Color me skeptical that 10% DR will make the difference between viability and worthlessness, considering how crazily high upper level enemy DPS is.

 

Additionally, why on earth would you try to close to melee range against ranged enemies? You have a gun, use it when the situation is appropriate. IS should not grant you the ability to do whatever you damn well please regardless of enemy presence, It should serve to reduce the threat of death by making you more durable.

Three reasons, really:

1. It was a test in a vaguely "real world" situation, rather than simply letting them sit there and wail on me.

2. Practically every Grineer mob except sawmen, their derivatives, and rollers is ranged, and literally every corpus mob is.

3. If I wanted to shoot dudes from cover, I'd have run with Frost/Nyx. I like to run Rhino as a melee build for stylistic purposes. (Huge Rhino has huge axe! Rip and tear!) Unfortunately, the only way this playstyle was viable was IS, because otherwise Rhino is too slow to close the distance effectively, unlike Excal or Saryn.

Mainly that third one though. Sure I beat the rest of the mission by being ultracautious and just shooting everyone instead of the much more fun melee option, but it was basically playing like Frost or Excal there. In which case, I might as well run with either of those, because they do it better. Excal is so much more mobile, letting him get to cover and control enemy fire lanes much more effectively. Frost has snowglobe, letting him make cover wherever he wants.

In short, I don't want to have to play Warframe as a cover shooter, because as a cover shooter, it isn't very good compared to its competitors. If I want to $&*^ around with cover, I'd go back to Mass Effect 3's MP mode, because it has an actual cover system and is designed around cover. Instead, I play Warframe for awesome space ninja doing awesome things, which means a seamless blend of melee and ranged asskickery and not just run and gunning everything down.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Zarozian]

 

Yes they can.  Put maxed power mods on Excalibur and he can spam Slash Dash all day.  Put it on Banshee and the same can be said about Sound Quake.  As well as with Frost and Snow Globe. 

 

 

 

This is not a viable solution in my opinion. 80% will get you shredded.  It might give you give something like two extra seconds to get to cover.

 

 

 

 

 

Now you see why Excalibur was voted to be the most overpowered Warframe and not Rhino.

[Cerenth]

Color me skeptical that 10% DR will make the difference between viability and worthlessness, considering how crazily high upper level enemy DPS is.

 

Three reasons, really:

1. It was a test in a vaguely "real world" situation, rather than simply letting them sit there and wail on me.

2. Practically every Grineer mob except sawmen, their derivatives, and rollers is ranged, and literally every corpus mob is.

3. If I wanted to shoot dudes from cover, I'd have run with Frost/Nyx. I like to run Rhino as a melee build for stylistic purposes. (Huge Rhino has huge axe! Rip and tear!) Unfortunately, the only way this playstyle was viable was IS, because otherwise Rhino is too slow to close the distance effectively, unlike Excal or Saryn.

Mainly that third one though. Sure I beat the rest of the mission by being ultracautious and just shooting everyone instead of the much more fun melee option, but it was basically playing like Frost or Excal there. In which case, I might as well run with either of those, because they do it better. Excal is so much more mobile, letting him get to cover and control enemy fire lanes much more effectively. Frost has snowglobe, letting him make cover wherever he wants.

In short, I don't want to have to play Warframe as a cover shooter, because as a cover shooter, it isn't very good compared to its competitors. If I want to $&*^ around with cover, I'd go back to Mass Effect 3's MP mode, because it has an actual cover system and is designed around cover. Instead, I play Warframe for awesome space ninja doing awesome things, which means a seamless blend of melee and ranged asskickery and not just run and gunning everything down.

 

This is unfortunately my suspicion as well. I see so many calls for the removal of movement methods and skills that it makes me think that the majority of people just want to turn this game into a cover based shooter. This isn't why I, and many other people, were attracted to this game. The removal of invincibility for frames makes me think that it's going to slow the pace of the game down a lot, to the point where the players will be forced to sit behind cover and suck their thumbs for a while until the red jam on their screens go away. I do hope that DE realise the unique selling point of this game soon and capitalize on it. Currently it seems to be heading towards ME3 multiplayer with some really bad wallrunning. I might as well go play GunZ.

[JerryMouse13]

Color me skeptical that 10% DR will make the difference between viability and worthlessness, considering how crazily high upper level enemy DPS is. 

 

That 10% difference actually translates into you taking 33% more damage per hit than what you're supposed to.

 

 

Three reasons, really:

1. It was a test in a vaguely "real world" situation, rather than simply letting them sit there and wail on me.
2. Practically every Grineer mob except sawmen, their derivatives, and rollers is ranged, and literally every corpus mob is.
3. If I wanted to shoot dudes from cover, I'd have run with Frost/Nyx. I like to run Rhino as a melee build for stylistic purposes. (Huge Rhino has huge axe! Rip and tear!) Unfortunately, the only way this playstyle was viable was IS, because otherwise Rhino is too slow to close the distance effectively, unlike Excal or Saryn.

Mainly that third one though. Sure I beat the rest of the mission by being ultracautious and just shooting everyone instead of the much more fun melee option, but it was basically playing like Frost or Excal there. In which case, I might as well run with either of those, because they do it better. Excal is so much more mobile, letting him get to cover and control enemy fire lanes much more effectively. Frost has snowglobe, letting him make cover wherever he wants.

In short, I don't want to have to play Warframe as a cover shooter, because as a cover shooter, it isn't very good compared to its competitors. If I want to $&*^ around with cover, I'd go back to Mass Effect 3's MP mode, because it has an actual cover system and is designed around cover. Instead, I play Warframe for awesome space ninja doing awesome things, which means a seamless blend of melee and ranged asskickery and not just run and gunning everything down.

 

 

You're calling running in a straight line toward multiple enemies with ranged weaponry, while not firing a single shot of your own a 'real world situation'? I'm sorry but no, that's not a reasonable game mechanic, that's what I would call broken. The ability to just flat out 'LOL, nope' a potentially infinite number of enemies, completely regardless of their damage output, is broken regardless of how you slice it.

 

Secondly, the concept of cover is not limited to those games which instance interactive cover. Cover is a concept that has existed in video games since bullets have  interacted with object in a level. Cover exists in game such as CoD, Section 8, Space marine, Halo, Planetside, etc. despite them not being 'cover based shooters' and It's use is an integral part of game-play. The knowledge of how, and when to use cover is a fundamental part of any shooter game, despite their lack of cover based mechanics.

 

If you want to engage in a melee-centric style combat learn to use obstacles, and obstructions to break your enemies line of sight. Do not rely on an easy mode button, in order to carry you to victory. If you are going to make the determination to use a certain style of play, then learn how to, and put forth the effort to make it succeed.

 

Also, blocking mechanic, it exists, use it.

 

Finally:

 

, which means a seamless blend of melee and ranged asskickery and not just run and gunning everything down.

 

You said it yourself, a blend of melee, and ranged combat. There are going to be certain situations, that promote the use of one or the other. Standing in an empty space across from multiple ranged enemies for example, is going to naturally promote ranged gun-play. Tight quarters with plentiful obstructions on the other hand will naturally promote melee combat. You cannot call this game a seamless blend, and then completely ignore one aspect of it in favor of the other.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

That 10% difference actually translates into you taking 33% more damage per hit than what you're supposed to.

33% more damage per hit doesn't seem very much with those supercharged max-serration grakatas that grineer carry in high levels. So I'd last 33% more time against the enemy? Whee, now I can maybe, if I'm lucky, survive to melee four enemies instead of three!

So again, color me skeptical.

 

You're calling running in a straight line toward multiple enemies with ranged weaponry, while not firing a single shot of your own a 'real world situation'?

Well, yes? More real world than sitting there and letting the enemy shoot at me while counting damage numbers, at least. If I'd wanted to kill them in seconds I would've just used the hek on all of them since they were within range, but since I was trying to test how effective IS is for my favored melee playstyle, that would defeat the whole purpose.

 

I'm sorry but no, that's not a reasonable game mechanic, that's what I would call broken. The ability to just flat out 'LOL, nope' a potentially infinite number of enemies, completely regardless of their damage output, is broken regardless of how you slice it.

Why, exactly? Other games allow it just fine. Heck, even Dark Souls has invincibility frames during rolling, and some people in ME3 have utterly mastered the N7 Slayer class' invincibility frames during melee to wade through every enemy shooting them at once, yet nobody cares and nobody thinks any of it's unbalanced or unfun.

I'm not saying that prenerf IS was perfect, but what exactly is wrong with invincibility as a concept?

 

Secondly, the concept of cover is not limited to those games which instance interactive cover. Cover is a concept that has existed in video games since bullets have  interacted with object in a level. Cover exists in game such as CoD, Section 8, Space marine, Halo, Planetside, etc. despite them not being 'cover based shooters' and It's use is an integral part of game-play. The knowledge of how, and when to use cover is a fundamental part of any shooter game, despite their lack of cover based mechanics.

Yes? And? I didn't say cover was totally irrelevant, I said that the game's bad as a cover shooter because it's clearly not designed around taking cover ala ME3 or Halo or whatever. Warframe gives you huge amounts of mobility options. To my mind, that implies you're meant to use them rather than sticking behind cover.

 

If you want to engage in a melee-centric style combat learn to use obstacles, and obstructions to break your enemies line of sight. Do not rely on an easy mode button, in order to carry you to victory. If you are going to make the determination to use a certain style of play, then learn how to, and put forth the effort to make it succeed.

I do that though. Thing is, on final approach there's oftentimes not any obstacles to break LOS, and Rhino isn't really fast enough to take advantage of them anyway.

 

Also, blocking mechanic, it exists, use it.

Oh yes, I forgot about that. Most players do, what with being mapped to a button many mice don't even have. Mind, I'm not sure how much it would help on account of it draining stamina, with Rhino's stamina being mediocre to begin with. And, you know, only blocking one enemy at once.

 

Finally:

 

 

You said it yourself, a blend of melee, and ranged combat. There are going to be certain situations, that promote the use of one or the other. Standing in an empty space across from multiple ranged enemies for example, is going to naturally promote ranged gun-play. Tight quarters with plentiful obstructions on the other hand will naturally promote melee combat. You cannot call this game a seamless blend, and then completely ignore one aspect of it in favor of the other.

That's just it. With Rhino there is no blend. Melee flat up isn't viable outside of infested or the rare case where you can round a corner and smash someone for Rhino because he's so slow. IS used to allow melee options, now it doesn't. Rhino simply isn't fast enough, even with rush, to advance out of cover to whack someone if he's got friends.

Edit: P.S. "Learn2play" or any derivative thereof is not a valid rebuttal.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[JerryMouse13]

It's like you only read what you want to hear.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

That's not much of a rebuttal I'm seeing there, Jerry. Heck, I'd be satisfied with you simply explaining what the issue is with temporary invulnerability as a concept.

[JerryMouse13]

I already have, and your failure to realize it just reinforces how pointless it is with arguing with someone who has already convinced themselves that they're right. Good day...

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I already have, and your failure to realize it just reinforces how pointless it is with arguing with someone who has already convinced themselves that they're right. Good day...

Except you haven't. You take your premise, that temporary invincibility as a concept is broken, and never discuss it even when asked. I bring up examples of temporarily invulnerability from two other games and you give me this nonsense about how you already addressed it. But where is this mighty rebuttal, Jerry?

I mean, you nitpick about the definition of "real world scenario" when I myself was comparing it to standing there and letting them shoot me with no attempt what so ever to mitigate damage. You bring up a bunch of "tips" that are of dubious usefulness. You complain that I didn't use my murderhek to just gun them down, even though I testing to see whether a melee-centric run was still viable or not, so just using the hek for everything would be defeating the purpose.

Then, worst of all, you tell me a particularly wordy variant on "learn2play nub", which is autofail as an argument. Indeed, the only good points you have are how supposedly the DR's bugged, which I'll take your word on, and the existence of the block button, which I completely forgot about, but which has its own disadvantages that make me question how effective it'd be at rendering the DR system viable.

No, wait. That wasn't worst. This post I'm quoting right now is the worst, because rather than actually engaging in honest discussion, you make pot shots, run, and try to get in the last word instead of actually defending your points.

[SFkenny]

Just had a minor brainwave- what if the market price tweaks were designed for the newer players to buddy up with experienced people to get them on big dollar alert missions and higher level alerts to get more gear quicker?

Of course, in practice this is a huge inconvenience, but I guess now I understand one of the motives behind why they tried this.

[Rabcor]

pls add  taunt to Nyx too. She needs it more than rhino ever did.

[Seanjuju]

Update 8:

We plan on releasing it today indeed, sit tight!

[vonDirk]

Update 8:

They already released it. And they add aggro to Iron Skin AND damage cap 800 maxed. *facepalm*

[K1LLZ0NE]

They already released it. And they add aggro to Iron Skin AND damage cap 800 maxed. *facepalm*

 

We knew they were.  Of course they want us to actually test it in a game.  I'm kind of excited actually.  So who can last the longest on Xini using this new Iron Skin?  My guess, 4 seconds!  lol

[Zarozian]

They already released it. And they add aggro to Iron Skin AND damage cap 800 maxed. *facepalm*

Think of it as an additional -80% and a 800 overshield that protects shields and health, meanwhile it lasts forever as long as you're not getting hit. 

[Zonzai]

Just to throw in this other idea:

 

#1 Rhino Charge - No changes

#2 Radial Blast - Damage equal to Frost's Ice Wave, cost 50

#3 Rhino Stomp - Reduce by 2 sec on all levels the "lifted duration", cost 75

#4 Iron Skin (Ultimate) - Working as the original one, add the new high priority mechanic, cost 100

 

Easy as that.

 

I could get behind that.  I would actually be able to use rhino stomp once in a while then.  As it is now, i won't even consider putting it into a build.  It's not worth the points or the energy cost. 

[JerryMouse13]

Welp, new Iron skin lasts 7 hits from a single charger on Eris.....

 

F***

Edited May 23, 2013 by JerryMouse13

[K1LLZ0NE]

Welp, new Iron skin lasts 7 hits from a single charger on Eris.....

 

F***

 

Damn, that's OP!  How could they think about putting something like that in the game?

[Aggh]

Oh man, do you really think it's that simple? A*B=C? Let me show you with some easy examples:

let's say that I have 3 chargers [10] around me and that each one gives me 300 to the damage cap. So that would give me 900 DC, that sounds nice and balanced doesn't it? What if instead of 3 chargers [10] there are 3 toxic ancients [43], the damage cap would still be 900 DC, does that sound balanced for you?  

 

That proves that you NEED to take in account the level of the enemy to make it balanced, now how do you suggest they do this? You can't just multiply something by the level of the enemies to get a reasonable output.

What about bosses, would be balanced that they give me the same DC that normal enemies? What if I have a boss and a lot of normal enemies?

 

What if I have a 10 Ancient Disrupters[40] or 10 chargers of the same level, would be balanced if I get the same DC in both cases? Shouldn't it get balanced around the types of enemies I'm fighting?

 

About focus, if you have it maxed, does it gives you 30% of the total damage cap?  Even after the level and type of enemy modifiers have been aplied? Do you know how easy can you get stratosferic shields with this? And this is not even taking mod rank in account.

 

As you can see, it's not just "multiply A by B and whatever C is they'll have to deal with", game developers have to put a lot of thought in this just to make it work properly, and much more to make it balanced. And after that they have to test it exhaustively and debug it, which takes lots of time too.

 

To make your idea "balanced", they need at least to know: 

-Quantity of enemies

-Level of enemies (I don't even want to think how they can make this work properly, what I do know it's that it would take a lot of work and time)

-type of enemies (ie: charger, crewman. This means they have to make a personalized value for EVERY mob in the game )

-Mod rank

-Focus mod

 

And they have so somehow make all that data gives them a reasonable value for de DC.

Now, do you get why your idea is hard to implement and balance properly, even more at this time when they don't have time to do all that work beacuse they are working in U8?

 

And I don't think I even need to mention how this solution will still have Rhino players complaining in the forums.

 

Now, how do I know that increasing the energy or cuting down the duration would be balanced? Simple. Because it would be exactly like it was before, but not spamable. And that's exacly what we need.

 

Or they could just base the damage cap on the total average DPS of the enemies that have been agro'd.

 

If focus would be to problematic for the skill, they could always just not have it affect it.  A number of skills aren't atm.  It could also just be 30% of the base damage cap.

 

Duration and energy cost changes could just as easily make it not spammable enough.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Aggh

[Unknown924]

Damn, that's OP! How could they think about putting something like that in the game?

Probably a small amount of guilt for what happened to Frost this patch. On the funny side the current Iron Skin is now better than Frost's globe for a while.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Unknown924

[GroxXx777]

Oh man this is really awful. Like Really awful. I'm sure DE is bussy as hell trying to fix everything U8 broke, but we need a fix to, and as soon as posible!!!

[Vorpalstryke]

I've got a great idea!!! Most anti-Rhinos don't like Iron Skin and Trinity's Link mainly because they feel jealous of the fact that those frames have a "God Mode" and they don't, right? Well what if we changed the abilities a bit and made them truly team oriented and share the invulnerability with nearby players?

Iron Skin can be an ultimate for 100 energy and would grant every team member in a 20 meter radius Iron Skin as well! Then everyone would be happy when the Rhino casts IS instead of insanely bitter and jealous. The increased cost makes it non-spammy in boss fights. It can only be spammed when other room clearing moves get spammed so it's more fair but EVERYONE gets the benefit. Same goes for Link, have everyone in a 20 meter radius benefit. This encourages teams to stay together and allows the Rhino and Trinity to use these abilities to help dying teammates and be better support frames in general.

Of course Radial Blast moves down to the #2 slot but what if they got rid of the knockdown, increased the radius and made it aggro the enemies it hits? Add the 70% damage reduction and suddenly it's a really useful tanking tool that will be used a whole lot more! Which would move Rhino Stomp to #3 and they can perhaps increase the duration in time to make it more worth the cost of using it. Radial Blast to aggro, the Stomp to CC, the perfect tanking combo!

As for Trinity, Link would be #4 and cost 100, Energy Vamp becomes #3 and becomes 75 energy, effectively destroying the infinite combo because its too expensive to maintain. Blessing can become the #2, cost 50 energy, remove the invulnerability, maybe heal only 50% max life and shields and here we go, a useful cheap heal! Add some shield regen to Well ofLife or slow its targets and that's good too suddenly!

I know it makes the abilities more powerful but shares the love and makes difficult content more manageable. This opens up to more sharing of powers by other frames too! Like Saryn's Contagion giving everyone poison damage! Ember sharing Overheat! Ash/Loki sharing stealth! Think of the possibilities for team play!!! The developers can then add more crazy insane content to play later to challenge us! What do you guys think? Vote teamwork! Improve abilities for team play, don't nerf em!

Edited May 24, 2013 by Vorpalstryke