User-Unfriendly To New Players

[-Edrick-]

An easy resolve to this is by having a "Story-mode" in warframe. In which it feels like DE will be incorporating something like that to the new star chart.

[(PSN)D-onlinekilla-4D]

I've met quite a few newer Tenno on the PS4, that had no Idea the wiki or the forums even existed.

 

Speaks volumes in my book!

 

I agree with OP.

[Djangofett]

https://warframe.com/quick-start-guide

[Caine2112]

I am also a new player using an level Excalibur frame. Albeit I figured I had to use the wiki already and some high level players have already helped me get on track.

I still am somewhat confused on the mission level stuff though. Part of it is armor and I think damage going...up that I know but I have no clue how exactly I could tell if my frame was ready for that mission or not until I either blaze through it or die horribly

 

Yep, I feel your confusion as well.  I've been playing a solid 2 weeks now and I have a better idea of what I can and cannot do, but it is still confusing.

 

 

An easy resolve to this is by having a "Story-mode" in warframe. In which it feels like DE will be incorporating something like that to the new star chart.

 

If DE implements a lore based story mode, they'll be getting some money from me.  This is exactly the sort of content that keeps me in a game for a long time.

 

https://warframe.com/quick-start-guide

 

Never knew this existed.  Stresses my point though.  I even read it and never even knew you could channel energy into your melee attacks.  Gonna need to try this out seeing as I love melee in this game.  Just got the Kogake and loving the animation and kick-butt-ery of the fighting style.

[Epicagemo]

Looks like I'm going to be the devil's advocate here. Scary. o.0

 

I don't think DE should start pumping assets into a better introduction system. IMO, the one we have now is fine as is. Use the wiki or even google. It's fun reading up on these things and researching everything about the game than to be forced upon a training session. Codex also is there to help. Being optional, is better than being forced upon.

I've sunk 1.5k+ hours into this game and I'm still learning new things everyday I play. You have time to learn, seriously. It might be just me but... If DE put you into a 2-3 hour training session, I'm pretty sure, people are bound to get bored. The problem is that games with super long tutorials you just don't get many people hooked. Have you ever tried those games with the tutorials forced onto you? You want to play, but you have to read and wait for the texts-"skip skip skip! I want to play!". That's the same as a 2-3 hour training session. This also is not a job where you are forced to take a 3 hour training session about safety. Also, I feel like if DE does implement a better introduction/training, it might make the game less social. Which is a big problem in a online co-op game. (current mic system is also hindering that a bit IMO)

 

Vets have gotten past the early stages, I have done it-Heck, I've even accidentally spent noobie plat on morphics back in the day. Live and learn. It's not impossible to get through the newbie stages, especially with a squad. This is a co-op game, not a solo. Use pubs to your advantage and cover each others' backs. Meet some friendlies, but will also encounter meanies, but that's just how online gaming works.

 

Some things I do agree with. Respawns in any non-endless mission break immersion and just make the game even harder and punishing to even play. They still annoy me even to this day. Mod drop rate is another... but that's just a vet thing. It's around 3% universally or something...

I don't mean to rub off as an elitist or anything, but I also feel like the game doesn't need a longer, in-depth training session. However, I wish they'd point out that their codex has further information a bit apparent to the player. The info is there, and it's great because it's optional. Just some major flaws to it... like the allocation of space in some parts. And maybe a legend/key.

 

[Caine2112]

Looks like I'm going to be the devil's advocate here. Scary. o.0

 

I don't think DE should start pumping assets into a better introduction system. IMO, the one we have now is fine as is. Use the wiki or even google. It's fun reading up on these things and researching everything about the game than to be forced upon a training session. Codex also is there to help. Being optional, is better than being forced upon.

I've sunk 1.5k+ hours into this game and I'm still learning new things everyday I play. You have time to learn, seriously. It might be just me but... If DE put you into a 2-3 hour training session, I'm pretty sure, people are bound to get bored. The problem is that games with super long tutorials you just don't get many people hooked. Have you ever tried those games with the tutorials forced onto you? You want to play, but you have to read and wait for the texts-"skip skip skip! I want to play!". That's the same as a 2-3 hour training session. This also is not a job where you are forced to take a 3 hour training session about safety. Also, I feel like if DE does implement a better introduction/training, it might make the game less social. Which is a big problem in a online co-op game. (current mic system is also hindering that a bit IMO)

 

Vets have gotten past the early stages, I have done it-Heck, I've even accidentally spent noobie plat on morphics back in the day. Live and learn. It's not impossible to get through the newbie stages, especially with a squad. This is a co-op game, not a solo. Use pubs to your advantage and cover each others' backs. Meet some friendlies, but will also encounter meanies, but that's just how online gaming works.

 

Some things I do agree with. Respawns in any non-endless mission break immersion and just make the game even harder and punishing to even play. They still annoy me even to this day. Mod drop rate is another... but that's just a vet thing. It's around 3% universally or something...

I don't mean to rub off as an elitist or anything, but I also feel like the game doesn't need a longer, in-depth training session. However, I wish they'd point out that their codex has further information a bit apparent to the player. The info is there, and it's great because it's optional. Just some major flaws to it... like the allocation of space in some parts. And maybe a legend/key.

 

 

Good points made, but I'm not really advocating a training session.  I find the first mission does the job just fine and has the new player do many of the maneuvers you normally do throughout the course of your playtime, with practice naturally.

 

What I am advocation is more in depth information on a lot of aspects of the game.  I'm not looking for data-crunching numbers that you can find in the wiki, but a lot of basic information you DO find in the wiki should be in the game.  The codex has been very useful I find, but it can be so much more.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

It was waay worse. A year ago you got no clue what the hell are forma, catalyst and reactor. From description Orokin catalyst was a damage boost for a weapon.

[OggyPrime]

New players are thrown into this game with very little information, including the basic stuff.

 

Most games use the first 5-10% of a campaign to teach new players the game mechanics.

Warframe does not have enough of a campaign to be able to do that at all. 

 

Warframe has been in Beta since Mach 2013 and since, we have yet to have anything close to a proper tutorial, campaign, reward table, Late game or Trade System. The game has instead been getting new warframes and weapons to add content but ignoring basic game design.

Everyone likes to praise DE for making 2.0 this or 2.0 that when IMO, these are things that should have been addressed sooner, much, much sooner.

[Tyreuzs]

True.. I just recommented Warframe to a friend.. guess i will have to ts with him first to explain some stuff...

[(PSN)magnumcrowe]

Looks like I'm going to be the devil's advocate here. Scary. o.0

 

I don't think DE should start pumping assets into a better introduction system. IMO, the one we have now is fine as is. Use the wiki or even google. It's fun reading up on these things and researching everything about the game than to be forced upon a training session. Codex also is there to help. Being optional, is better than being forced upon.

 

-snip-

While I do feel modern gaming has made a crutch of tutorials and Warframe's current "tutorial" does an excellent job with the content it does explain, I also have to disagree with you on a few points.

First off, while the basic combat, movement and gameflow is very well covered in Vor's Prize, a lot of basic stuff is entirely ignored. Mods are pretty much glossed over. "Equip 'em, have fun." says Lotus "Btw, did you know you could fuse those things? How?! Um... Hey! It's Vor! He said something about your momma! Go get 'im!" I realise it's a simple system to pick up, but there's a lot of nuance to it, as there is to transmutation. Heck, I kinda had to guess my way into it, and I'm one of the more tinkering players (trust me, I know; do you know how many people I'Ve run into who'd reached MR4+ and had no idea how mods worked?!). I believe OP's point (and mine; in for a penny...) is that some basic stuff like that, the way elements work (procs, damage reduction and increase, etc...), some subtler but still basic details about parcour (like the fact you can jump from one wall to another and start another wall run without landing) just aren't covered that well or mentioned outside from randomised tooltips or the wiki (or that moment where you ahve a flash of "I'mma try that"). We aren't really told where Warframe parts drop, either, and that's a really important thing to mention in-game, since you're limited when you start to choosing one of three warframes out of 23 (not including Primes); I remember having a serious "what now?" moment when I originally started playing and just wanted to try another frame after a couple of missions with Excalibur. A lot of stuff that you can get in the market and initially seemingly nowhere else isn't mentioned to be available in alerts, either (though that may be an intentional Plat pushing tactic from DE; I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt and assume it's an oversight ;3); solid examples would be Forma, as well as blue and golden 'taters.

I also may be biased in the next two statements as I'm something of an older gamer, but I stand by both opinions: 1) The game should stand on its own and explain itself, and 2) Relying on other players to teach the newbies how to play is a terrible, terrible idea.

When I say the game should stand on its own, I mean that this whole "there's a wiki, go look at it" and "just google it" thing that seems to be the moto of every player in Regional chat (have a look at my PSN tag before you ask which one) is a crock of $hit. I understand the internet is a great tool, here I am using it and the game runs on it. I understand it can be really cool when a game has a few secrets that the community needs to get together to unravel; Dark Souls had that going for it and it did it so well other games are trying to cash in on this (*cough* FNAF *cough*). However, those secret gems are generally A) complex and nuanced endgame content, or B) lore info that you really don't need to be able to play the game well. You shouldn't have to go to a third party to learn basic information about the game, especially to a wiki that may or may not be run by people who didn't work on the game and could be mistaken about some of it's more intricate details. The game really should explain itself, or else it's its own failure. Back in the days before internet was as widely popular, games got flack and failed miserably if they weren't self explanatory, and I feel that's something we forget (I'm 25ish, btw; it's not as long ago as you would think).

My issue with relying on peer to peer teaching is basically a subset of my first argument; if the game stands on its own, I shouldn'T have to rely on another player to learn basic stuff the game should have let me know in the first place. However, there's a nuance here that justifies we discuss it on its own: the human element. I won't go to say that gamers are elitist (I find that only a mouthy, persistent and well incrusted minority really are), but we all have our moments when we just don't feel heplful, where we have variable deifinitions of what people should or shouldn't figure out on their own, and Regional is, counter-intuitevely, where those players who just don't feel too energetic or too helpful tend to go. It's also the first place you would think of going to for help (trust me, sometimes I still try, against my better judgement, and sometimes, I'm lucky), and you can see how that's a problem; it gives a bad first impression of the community, which is a little on the toxic side but nowhere near as bad as we sometimes make it out to be. That isn't to say the players are the problem, though. DE have, in my opinion, mistakenly taken to relying on their player-base as a crutch (that official "peer training" program of theirs is proof) and here's the reality, cold and cruel:  teaching is hard work and, usually, an actual paying job, and I don't come to Warframe to work, I come here to play. That the program is in the works is something of a testament in and of itself that DE understand they aren't doing a good job teaching us how their own game works, and as grateful as I am for this game, I don't want to pick up their slack. Some days I'm more patient or I've got time to kill (don't ask me to explain how that happens while I'm playing a game; I have my meditative moments), and I'll take the time to go into Regional or Relay chat and be helpful, but you can't expect me, or anyone, to log into a game in order to do this regularly and out of the goodness of our hearts; that only goes so far. There's a reason (other than some people just being plain mean; no helping that) that "google it" has become a maxim of veteran Warframe players in any sort of chat; we just don't want to be always explaining things to newer players, we want to actually play, whatever our definiton of that is. And honestly, some of the things I've been asked, these new players really shouldn't have to ask, and they shouldn't have to go through me, or any other player, feeling unhelpful and leaving them to wallow in their ignorance. And honestly, we can talk about our willingness to help others learn and teach each other the ins and outs of this game, but I think in the end, we all have a lot more fun when we're just about on the same page, and that's something we want for everyone.

Now, am I saying we need a 2-3 hour long forced tutorial, as you say? No. Hell no. Just, no! I agree entirely that any tutorial (past Vor's Prize, since it's the closest thing we have to a story and actually does its job very well as I'll explain) should be optional, as opposed to invasive. However, we may not need a tutorial. The reason I feel Vor's Prize is an excellent first stage is because it's very hands-on, and it's not a training exercise, you are playing the actual game. Go on youtube and watch Egoraptor's "Sequelitis" episode on Megaman X; he explains the whole concept better than I ever will, but the gist of it is this: the game should be able, through some scrpited events, to teach us the game mechanics, or at least give us serious incentive to go ahead and try them, without forcing us into a linear tutorial. Vor's prize did this well exactly because it made us try those mechanics it covered, as opposed to explaining them entirely. "Press O for a melee attack. Oh, hey! Enemies! Go have fun." That's enough, and really we just need more of that to cover those mechanics that are neglected. "I understand Vor uses a shield. Did you know you could combine cold and electric to make magnetic damage, which murders shields? Didn't you pick up mods for those with your pistol?", or "Vor's too strong for you, you'll need to upgrade that Serration. I ran out of Fusion cores, though... oh! Here, have some mods with the same polarity, it's almost as good. Go to your mod workbench", or even "You won't make that jump with a single wall run; you'll need to chain another one after that." would all be perfect. Just incentive. No directions, just go do it. PLayers will inevitably try it, they'll fiddle around, maybe get it wrong, and maybe just a little "That doesn't seem quite right, but just roll with it" from Lotus, as opposed to forcing players to get it right might suffice to teach them how it all works.

The point is there are inventive ways around the tutorial that would still teach players how to play this game well, and we need it quite simply because for every thing Warframe doesn't teach the new guys, we're taking time out of our breaks to teach them instead.

[(PSN)D-onlinekilla-4D]

I've just finished helping a mastery 4 player through a few missions/quest missions.

 

The poor guy didn't know that he could fuse mods, to make them more beneficial.

 

Now I can't remember if this is covered during the first missions, as a new player, the fusion process.

 

But I was totally gobsmacked he had even stuck with the game as he was struggling, and had hit a point where the build he was using with all unranked mods on, just would not suffice.

 

I wonder how many players have cast aside the game?

due to lack of instruction / information,

due to hitting a brick wall and not knowing where to turn next, for help / guidance / advice.

 

I feel some good points are also being covered in this thread, and hopefully this is eye opening for some who may read.

 

I'm not asking for the newer player to be handed everything on a plate,

I just think that there should be more info available in game, with an emphasis on making this easily  accessible.

[OriginOne]

Indeed, the in-game information is limited. However, you can check the Warframe Wikia: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/WARFRAME_Wiki

[(PSN)magnumcrowe]

Indeed, the in-game information is limited. However, you can check the Warframe Wikia: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/WARFRAME_Wiki

-et all-

 

Please, can people stop saying this? I don't mean to be rude, I'm sure you mean well, but the point OP was trying to make and some of us agree with and are trying to strengthen is EXACTLY that some of the info exclusively on the wiki should be IN THE GAME. We all know about the wiki here. We do. That it exists and is chock-full of great info, including the stuff that players SHOULD discover on their own, is not up for debate, it's a fact. The point is that new players SHOULDN'T have to check the wiki or any other third party site, the game should do a good job on its own of teaching us how to play it! If anything, the wiki should be endgame content (and even then, it's not part of the freaking game!).

Imagine the wiki wasn't there, that no one took the time to gather all that info and contribute to it, I know it's hard but just imagine; what then? Must you fork over 40+$ on a strategy guide, only to find out how to use dual elements? Should you scour more obscure parts of the internet (google isn't perfect; stop telling us to #$%?ing use it!) only to glean the intricate details of melee? I've been playing for six months and literally learned just recently that melee attacks are weaker when you're out of stamina. Just now. A fricking week ago. There are no visual cues to this (other than damage numbers I can't even read that close up to my foes), no indications anywhere unless I spend more time eyeing enemy life-gauges than I do looking at what I'm freaking doing. Does that seem right to you? Heck, I didn't know I had to look it up because I just never noticed, so the wiki wouldn't have even been any help, and neither would google.

This is not the post for advertising the wiki. To all those who've been doing it, you're forgiven but please, please... read the fricking post! And to any future wiki-lovers, I kindly ask you this:

Take your wiki, and shove it.

[zavienh5]

Took me half a year to figure out how the mod system works and how to effectively know which weapon is good to mod for after watching numerous videos and such.

[Caine2112]

MagnumCrowe, I seriously wish I could like your two posts above a thousand times over.  You seriously reinforced my original post perfectly.

 

I agree completely that we shouldn't be spoonfed on every nuance of the game, but rather the basic stuff that one needs to look at a wiki to learn.  I'm in my early 40s, so I've seen quite a lot of new games, and I reiterate that the vast majority of games I gave up on were related to two things:  new player information, and user-friendly UI.  I can live without the first a little, but the latter is a must for me.

 

A year ago, I tried this game out, back when Loki (instead of Volt) was the third starter warframe.  I thought to myself that stealth in this game would be great.  It really wasn't with all the endless respawns the moment you got seen.  And I had no clue how to mod my warframe at all, so I kept dying on every mission and getting zero progression.  Also had absolutely no idea what mission levels I could reasonably complete, and Vor kept kicking my butt over and over and over, even when teamed up with my brother.  There was just zero information on a lot of stuff, and it's still the case in many areas a year later.  But yes, thankfully the Vor's Prize starter campaign does a very reasonable job of teaching you the mechanics now, as opposed to a year ago.  However, I still have no clue what Vor's "Prize" actually is!

 

This game is beautiful on a lot of aspects.  Just imagine how new player retention levels would rise if it was far more informative than it currently is.  And this is the massive pitfall a lot of F2P models find themselves in.  They aim for graphics and gameplay mechanics, but forget to provide comprehensive teaching tools and detailed codex entries for new players (and even veteran players at times) to learn their game correctly.

 

I seriously hope a developer has at least read this thread and sparked some creativity in this area of their game.  That's my goal for this thread.

 

Thank you all to those who have contributed constructively to this discussion.  +9999 as far as I'm concerned.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Caine2112

[Husla]

There defo needs to be a guide for survival. When i've been to nodes like apollodorus. New players tend to use life-support as soon as it appears. 

[maimus]

Verry well put OP, I know i struggled when I started playing made easier for me by the fact I had a friend who was MR 1 who had some time in game before me.

 

I hope DE sees the OP and can do somthing towards making it more clear.

 

Maybe Lotus could sending new players a Questionair to get some feed back at a set MR or after X number of play hours.  

[(PSN)D-onlinekilla-4D]

Just a thought, more related to feedback, but here goes.

Anyone here use the console to the right of navigation? the news station.

 

Thought not,

 

Ideal place for the wiki,  or DE's copy of the wiki, IMO.

 

But hey, some people may like looking at old (useless) info, not me.

when in fact this could possibly be replaced, with something that is relevant AND useful AND has EASY access.

 

Thoughts?

Edited June 17, 2015 by (PS4)D-onlinekilla-4D

[Caine2112]

Just a thought, more related to feedback, but here goes.

Anyone here use the console to the right of navigation? the news station.

 

Thought not,

 

Ideal place for the wiki,  or DE's copy of the wiki, IMO.

 

But hey, some people may like looking at old (useless) info, not me.

when in fact this could possibly be replaced, with something that is relevant AND useful AND has EASY access.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Now that is a great idea.  I think I clicked once on that console, on my first day playing 2 weeks ago.

[Malacronious]

I feel ya, after 900 hours I just recently found out that each frame has its own revives and I found this out from the recent addition of tips in the loading screens. lolololol

 

I guess when I first started I just accepted that google would continue to be my learning buddy for all things and never really thought about the fact that this is an issue. Still to this day I alt-tab many many times during each play. Would be nice to have information more easily accessible in game.

[Chaosdreamer]

Well , maybe but think so if all the vet / old player learned there way I don't see why a new player can't try itself and there is a full wiki and alot of video on youtube now

[Caine2112]

Well , maybe but think so if all the vet / old player learned there way I don't see why a new player can't try itself and there is a full wiki and alot of video on youtube now

 

With due respect, I believe you're missing the point of my original post, as well as the discussion herein completely.  The entire point is that a lot of the wiki should be in the game already.  Not everything mind you, like Trials and mid to end game content.  That stuff needs to be discovered by the players, and a wiki like we have now is a good thing for those who want to learn via others' experiences through trial and error.

 

But having to learn the basics and some of the low to mid ranged game content using Youtube and Wikis is just plain wrong.

[Caine2112]

Would like to hear more from new players and how they view the level of information currently provided by the game.  Do you feel it's currently enough or do you feel lost?

[Xiankua]

Would like to hear more from new players and how they view the level of information currently provided by the game.  Do you feel it's currently enough or do you feel lost?

 

Warframe was completely unplayable for me until I started playing with my good friends. Honestly, if they hadn't roped me into it I still wouldn't be playing. Fortunately they kind of have a game play tutorial now that covers the basics of the controls, which helped a lot but still leaves quite a few things unclear. Just last week I found out that you can switch your shoulder camera to the other side by pressing H, and that was after 1000+ hours of gameplay. I love that Warframe has so many features, but I think that a lot of them are lost on even some older players because there just isn't any information on it.

[(PSN)D-onlinekilla-4D]

Warframe was completely unplayable for me until I started playing with my good friends. Honestly, if they hadn't roped me into it I still wouldn't be playing. Fortunately they kind of have a game play tutorial now that covers the basics of the controls, which helped a lot but still leaves quite a few things unclear. Just last week I found out that you can switch your shoulder camera to the other side by pressing H, and that was after 1000+ hours of gameplay. I love that Warframe has so many features, but I think that a lot of them are lost on even some older players because there just isn't any information on it.

This I feel is a very important statement^

 

Note the Tenno Quoted has 1k hours plus and has just learnt about another option/gameplay improvement, with this in mind,

I get the feeling that this is a knock on effect of not having the information in the first place.

 

Further enforcing the OP's concerns regarding the topic.

 

Great discussion also, to those with constructive feedback.

 

Thanks for reading and enjoy the rest of your day.

 

MR 19 here, with over 1k hours too :)