Fire-And-Forget Abilities < Active Abilities

[motorfirebox]

This is kind of an expanded version of the "make Peacemaker more like Exalted Blade" threads that are popping up. There are a lot of abilities in Warframe that don't offer the player much to do besides hitting the button that activates them. That's fine for some abilities, especially panic buttons like Nekros's Terrify. But other abilities, especially ults, should require and reward more player input. There are a lot of examples that can be used; Peacemaker vs Exalted Blade is one, Exalted Blade vs the old Radial Javelin is another. In both cases, from the perspective of having fun in all game modes, Exalted Blade wins out because you have control. EB might be a little overpowered right now, hard to say, but even if it gets nerfed it will still be more fun than hitting one button and then sipping your soda.

 

Another good example is Snow Globe vs Electric Shield. Two powers with essentially the same purpose: to offer protection from damage. With Snow Globe, it's all about using the right mods. Once you've done that, you're fine so long as you hit the button at the proper time without being too far out of position. Electric Shield is much more difficult to use, but much more interesting to use because of that. You want to position it so that not only does it protect you, but so that it gives you as wide a field of fire as possible, so that you can take advantage of the bonuses you get for shooting through it. Despite the fact that they're both defensive powers, ES is much more active than SG.

 

As more and more frames go through their 2.0, I really hope that the philosophy behind Exalted Blade will be applied more often. Save the passive AOEs for 3, with an appropriate reduction in efficacy; make ults more engaging.

Edited June 27, 2015 by motorfirebox

[----Fenrir----]

Yes, we need more abilities that support active gameplay. Excalibur new ultimate is really really good and a huge step in the right direction away from "stationary turrets".

[XxCurtennoxX]

I don't see EB as overpowered at all. DE did a great job of making Excalibur viable again, and I love what they've done with his new Ult. Anyway, I agree, it makes frames more fun to have interaction.

[S7ORM]

I don't see EB as overpowered at all. DE did a great job of making Excalibur viable again, and I love what they've done with his new Ult. Anyway, I agree, it makes frames more fun to have interaction.

I concur

[Pro3Display]

I concur

why? and to what exactly?

 

(next part is directed to everyone)

excalibur ult is not op. why? cause it's pve

excalibur ult is better. why? cause it doesn't and just offers people who want to kill each mob tet-a-tet do so

peacemaker is fine as it is and never be anything nearly as cool if done as exalted blade. why? cause it's a pve, different playstyle and will take away the joy of beholding precious animations.

this thread is as good as any other. why? because it is. different frames - different play styles, that's why there are 23 frames to chose from - pick one you like and play it, say your ego "hold on a minute" and remind it that its a mmo and other people try to enjoy it too. if you want to ruin game for others pls just troll with limbo or loki but don't make the game more broken than it is

 

p.s. about stationary frames like mesa and frost:

stationary frames will be there as long as there are stationary game modes like defense and interception.

that's why frost is a defense god after all

Edited June 27, 2015 by Pro3Display

[Buzkyl]

why? and to what exactly?

 

(next part is directed to everyone)

excalibur ult is not op. why? cause it's pve

excalibur ult is better. why? cause it doesn't and just offers people who want to kill each mob tet-a-tet do so

peacemaker is fine as it is and never be anything nearly as cool if done as exalted blade. why? cause it's a pve, different playstyle and will take away the joy of beholding precious animations.

this thread is as good as any other. why? because it is. different frames - different play styles, that's why there are 23 frames to chose from - pick one you like and play it, say your ego "hold on a minute" and remind it that its a mmo and other people try to enjoy it too. if you want to ruin game for others pls just troll with limbo or loki but don't make the game more broken than it is

 

p.s. about stationary frames like mesa and frost:

stationary frames will be there as long as there are stationary game modes like defense and interception.

that's why frost is a defense god after all

Except that exalted blade is what peacemaker shouldstrive to be.

A high damage ultmate that also rewards skill and active play.

EB synergizes with SD and RB to provide massive amounts of damage. However if excalibur just stands around he will get killed, but if he is mobile and utilises his other skills he will hardly find himself going down while destroying most enemies he comes across.

Compare this to mesa Peacemaker which has zero playstyle- Mesa presses 4 and onlys down a button then shoots everything in a 50M radius. There is little skill involved, you don't even need to aim it. Which is ironic as gunslingers are praised for thier steady hands and quick reflexes of the guns they use.

Being staionary israrely a downside as you relocate very easily, if you were melee'ed to death in peacemaker that's your fault.

The staff themselves are trying less to promote passive play, excalibur is an example of that. The frost rework upcoming also shows such.

[motorfirebox]

why? and to what exactly?

 

(next part is directed to everyone)

excalibur ult is not op. why? cause it's pve

excalibur ult is better. why? cause it doesn't and just offers people who want to kill each mob tet-a-tet do so

peacemaker is fine as it is and never be anything nearly as cool if done as exalted blade. why? cause it's a pve, different playstyle and will take away the joy of beholding precious animations.

this thread is as good as any other. why? because it is. different frames - different play styles, that's why there are 23 frames to chose from - pick one you like and play it, say your ego "hold on a minute" and remind it that its a mmo and other people try to enjoy it too. if you want to ruin game for others pls just troll with limbo or loki but don't make the game more broken than it is

 

p.s. about stationary frames like mesa and frost:

stationary frames will be there as long as there are stationary game modes like defense and interception.

that's why frost is a defense god after all

Well, I already described what I think fire-and-forget abilities should be changed to: something more active and involved. Exalted Blade is one example.

 

I think Peacemaker could be very cool if done with an eye towards more involved play. The idea I've been promoting is for Peacemaker to give Mesa a set of mobility-based moves that let her use her Regulators to great effect. Loosely speaking, it would work something like a Max Payne-style shootdodge maneuvers, though each one would have its own effect. For instance, if you do a slide-flip, Mesa might cast a slow on all enemies in a long cone in front of her, and slow down a bit herself in mid-air, letting her take a bunch of them down with shots from her (manually-aimed) Regulators. Do a slide attack (copter), and she might get five seconds of her current Peacemaker. Do a jump attack, and she might automatically shoot every enemy within 5m. Stuff like that, that makes Mesa powerful without limiting her interaction to holding down a button.

 

And it's not necessarily about stationary vs mobile. Like I said, Electric Shield is an example of a 'stationary' power that still offers more interactivity than just hitting a button. An average Frost player isn't particularly more effective, in terms of stationary defense, than a great Frost player. Both of them just have to do the bare minimum of speccing correctly and hitting 4 within a few meters of the point being defended. An average Volt player can offer decent stationary protection, but a great Volt player can massively increase the damage output of his team while still offering great stationary protection, by placing his shields optimally.

[Pro3Display]

-snip-

it's your opinion that it should strive to be like EB after you saw EB

mesa's ult was made for the sake of fancy animation, which i and many others like to behold

and guess what? if mesa stand still she will get killed! what a miracle, right? that's why there are frames that protect her, because there is a reason to protect her. what reason? she is useful. now tell me when last time did the whole team protect your excal because you are useful but may die fast?

 

btw making people need to turn their camera to hit targets will only change "hold mb1 to kill everything" to "hold mb1 and move your mouse as if you had epilepsy to kill everything"

Edited June 27, 2015 by Pro3Display

[motorfirebox]

I like Mesa's animations as well. There's no reason for them to be discarded. But there's also no need for those animations to be the limit of what Mesa can do.

[Pro3Display]

I like Mesa's animations as well. There's no reason for them to be discarded. But there's also no need for those animations to be the limit of what Mesa can do.

and you want to increase what mesa can do by limiting what she can do? say what?

 

also roll shooting will be very wonky with current los system

Edited June 27, 2015 by Pro3Display

[motorfirebox]

and you want to increase what mesa can do by limiting what she can do? say what?

No, as I posted previously, I want to increase what Mesa can do by increasing what Mesa can do. Along with many other frames whose powers don't offer much interactivity.

Edited June 27, 2015 by motorfirebox

[Pro3Display]

sry i have  a tendency to add some stuff to my posts so check up on it pls too

 

No, as I posted previously, I want to increase what Mesa can do by increasing what Mesa can do. Along with many other frames whose powers don't offer much interactivity.

 

slow proposed by you is probably useless since peacemakers probably got bigger range (if not - 50m cone slow, lol? too op i guess, and if mesa ever comes to conclave why shouldnt she have it there?)

other mid air stuff that you proposed i can do  by jumping forward and pressing 4 while midair (it perfectly allows that cause its not rhino stomp, duh)

making peacemakers manually aimed is limiting what it can do.

 

so basically you are just limiting what it can do + giving either super useless or super op slow cone. also this cone got very little room for logical justification behind it

Edited June 27, 2015 by Pro3Display

[Buzkyl]

it's your opinion that it should strive to be like EB after you saw EB

mesa's ult was made for the sake of fancy animation, which i and many others like to behold

and guess what? if mesa stand still she will get killed! what a miracle, right? that's why there are frames that protect her, because there is a reason to protect her. what reason? she is useful. now tell me when last time did the whole team protect your excal because you are useful but may die fast?

 

btw making people need to turn their camera to hit targets will only change "hold mb1 to kill everything" to "hold mb1 and move your mouse as if you had epilepsy to kill everything"

If anyframe stands still they will get killed.

Even if they stand in onespot and rotate around to fire, they will get killed.So that's not even a peacemaker related downside. And even if she stands still, her 3rd protects her from range and her 2nd sheilds her from melee. SO don't even try like peacemkaer is putting mesa in so much danger. Adding teammates just makes it even easier.

And no, it's not just moving your mouse while holding M1. It's actually aiming where your shots will go and firring like you're actually using a gun .Mesa ultimate was ade for the sake of an animation? That doesn't mean it must promote a passive playstyle. Because my opinion is that mesa's ultimate is what brings her full circle as a gunslinger/cowboy themed frame, where her ultimate allows her to draw 2 extremely lethal pistols.

That is directly parralel to Excalibur being a Melee/Swordsman frame ultimate drawinng a sword. The difference is that one is executed much better than the other.

[motorfirebox]

Well, if it's useless when it's too small, and it's op when it's too big, then logically there's a Goldilocks size that's just right.  As for Conclave, that's its own separate thing. As with every other frame and weapon in the game, the Conclave team can balance it as they see fit.

 

These are just ideas I've spitballed to give a sense of what I'd like to see, not a concrete proposition. For one thing, I'd really want to see more than just the three moves I came up with. Also, while moving, I envision she'd be able to fire her Regulators with mild aimbot and/or ricochet and/or punchthrough. 

 

Overall, yes, with these changes, you'll be significantly less powerful if you just stand in one spot and try to kill anything that gets in range. Excal is a lot less powerful in those terms, too, with the new Exalted Blade ult. But overall, Excal is actually much more powerful than he used to be, because you can leverage mobility and positioning to much greater effect.

[Pro3Display]

-snip

if mesa had to aim 100% precisely with her ultimate all the time to kill something it either would have sheetton of damage to oneshot lvl 500 mobs or never be used outside "i play her cause i want" and

there would be flying saryns everywhere polluting air with their miasmas looting energy themselves and not relying on gmag.

if you think that you'd get your share of kills that mesa took away from you - you are fundamentally wrong.

you cant steal a kill from a frame that instantly obliterates the whole map such as saryn and damage nova

 

yes this ult is for animations. that doesn't mean it promotes passive play style. it never did. it just supposed to be useful and look cool. and it is and does

Edited June 27, 2015 by Pro3Display

[motorfirebox]

if mesa had to aim 100% precisely with her ultimate all the time to kill something it either would have sheetton of damage to oneshot lvl 500 mobs or never be used outside "i play her cause i want" or

there would be flying saryns everywhere polluting air with their miasmas looting energy themselves and not relying on gmag.

if you think that you'd get your share of kills that mesa took away from you - you are fundamentally wrong.

you cant steal a kill from a frame that instantly obliterates the whole map such as saryn and damage nova

Well, Nova's MP kills are handed to whoever sets off the MP chain, not Nova (unless she's the one that sets it off). And Saryn's nuke range is a little to small for Draco-style camping, though if everyone else gets nerfed I'm sure her time will come.

 

And I don't think he said "aim 100% precisely" with Mesa's ult. There can be some auto-aim, it just shouldn't completely take away all player interaction.

[Pro3Display]

-snip-

no he actually said 

 

And no, it's not just moving your mouse while holding M1. It's actually aiming where your shots will go and firring like you're actually using a gun .

 

and saryns ult range can be pumped up so everything in a huge range dies instantly, saw that with my eyes. maybe its not enough for draco but its still a huge area.... and it s like she is flying around dishing 3-5 miasmas/second sooo coverage is quite big

Edited June 27, 2015 by Pro3Display

[motorfirebox]

Well, I'm not going to try to put words in his mouth, but manual aiming with a bit of aimbot (e.g. Bullet Attractor) still requires a large degree of aiming where your shots will go. You keep positing extremes as if they're the only possibilities—either Peacemaker gives 100% aimbot, or every shot requires precise aiming just like any other gun; either my slow cone is too short and underpowered, or too long and overpowered. Splitting the difference will always defeat that kind of argument.

[Pro3Display]

-snip-

the thing is... you can spend month or few balancing out this slow cone to find the middle... or spend them to fix the actual gameplay that is broken.

btw in the worst case the whole game needs to be rewritten from scratch cause its broken at its core.

 

de made a core, polished it in beta, then added load of features who ever came up with them and decisions they made while doing them echoed through the core.... now the core is on the verge of collapse. they were adding features as if its alpha, now the game needs its beta 2.0 more than any other 2.0 de got in their schedule

[motorfirebox]

Refactoring the entire game might be a good idea, but what I'm talking about is the guiding philosophy behind any new or 2.0 set of powers. It applies whether the entire game is being refactored, or just one frame.

[Buzkyl]

if mesa had to aim 100% precisely with her ultimate all the time to kill something it either would have sheetton of damage to oneshot lvl 500 mobs or never be used outside "i play her cause i want" and

there would be flying saryns everywhere polluting air with their miasmas looting energy themselves and not relying on gmag.

if you think that you'd get your share of kills that mesa took away from you - you are fundamentally wrong.

you cant steal a kill from a frame that instantly obliterates the whole map such as saryn and damage nova

 

yes this ult is for animations. that doesn't mean it promotes passive play style. it never did. it just supposed to be useful and look cool. and it is and does

So you're saying peacemaker would have to be buffed if you now have to aim a gun? Gosh, you practically foster the midnless P42Win playstyle at this point if you you're against aiming with a pistol based ultimate.

Like it doesn't do meassive amounts of damage already, and that's without headshots, which you can't get as peacemaker always aims for the torso/center mass.

Using saryn's ultimate doesn't help you whatsoever as MIasma spam is one of the centered P42Win ulitmates that needs to be looked at.And really? Nova ultimate to steal kills? You have must be playing on a fairly low level as the most glorious part of the ultimate is the massive CC it provides.

It doesn't promote passibity? Prove it.

I'm going to present an arguement for the opposite.

It locks you in 1 spot

It shoots everything that walks into a 360 LoS radius of you, automatically

You don't have to aim whatsoever

Combine with her 2 and 3 she's borderline impervious to melee and range attackers

For style points, you also have a wide arrange of animations to watch as she kills things

So in short, you're watching the game play itself while doing nothing aside from holding a button down.

While i love Peacemaker animations, the skill itself needs adjustments

[Tyreuzs]

[Beas7ie]

it's your opinion that it should strive to be like EB after you saw EB

mesa's ult was made for the sake of fancy animation, which i and many others like to behold

and guess what? if mesa stand still she will get killed! what a miracle, right? that's why there are frames that protect her, because there is a reason to protect her. what reason? she is useful. now tell me when last time did the whole team protect your excal because you are useful but may die fast?

 

btw making people need to turn their camera to hit targets will only change "hold mb1 to kill everything" to "hold mb1 and move your mouse as if you had epilepsy to kill everything"

 

 

Not just Mesa but a lot of frames have ults that are pretty much "press 4 to kill everything near you".  They look cool and fancy, but it's really kind of lame.  There's little to no skill involved and often there are no counters.  I love Excals new ult beause he doesn't auto kill everything near him. You have to do that yourself.  DE took a step in the right direction and it's time they keep moving in that direction with the other frames.

 

Also when was the last time you were in a game with a Mesa and when Mesa ulted everyone said "LOOK GUYS MESAS ULTING!  WE HAVE TO DROP EVERYTHING AND GO AND PROTECT HER NOW OR ELSE SHE'LL DIE BECAUSE SHE'S STANDING STILL!"?

[Pro3Display]

It doesn't promote passibity? Prove it.

there is a two restaurants

1 with a ton of ads on tv radio and in 2 mile radius around it.

and second is just there and does its job good

mesa is the second one- all the promotion mesa and the second restaurant got and will get is what people build inspired by its good job

only thing is just mesa's good job backfired in this whiny community

apparently this community likes to waste time doing monotonous repetitive stuff and just plain suffer rather than enjoy the actual game... no wonder it can't enjoy it- the game is broken

i'm glad that you want to enjoy suffering but i'm not into s/m

 

i say it will need to be buffed to stay as useful as it is now cause there are others p42w ults that will take place of mesas ult

which u gladly missed as a point and try to refactor my words to attack me

 

2 and 3 last less than her ult and force you to exit it (not the energy pool) while gmag let you stay there cause she's kind

 

-snip-

p42w issue needs to be looked as a whole, but all this weeks rant is about mesa.

counters? what counters you want in pve?

skill? who do you want to prove your skillfulness? grineer? trust me they don't care

i like mesa's ult as it is cause i could invent pressing ult while flying through the room to kill everyone behind every corner i pass while flying. stationary my @$$. your imagination is your limit, not mesa's ult.

and actualy they do protect you if they are not some dumb random ppl

 

p.s. talking about imagination - it's what make you keep playing the game while it's dying, but still no one wants to see the core problems and are whining about this and that, wanting the game to do the job your imagination does and should do.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Pro3Display

[motorfirebox]

p42w issue needs to be looked as a whole, but all this weeks rant is about mesa.

Dude. The only reason this thread is about Mesa is because you keep talking about Mesa. Read the op, I made it pretty clear that I'm taking about fire-and-forget abilities as a whole, not just Mesa. Hence the thread title!