The Master Forma Solution

[EinheriarJudith]

they seriously could have made it much harder to lvl weapons per forma by just increasing the amount of xp needed in ranking to 30 per forma. but people would cry grevously about that so the system we have is more than acceptable.

Edited July 29, 2015 by EinheriarJudith

[Wolfssenger]

Half of the posts on this thread are mindless bickering( though i guess that's half of posts in general)

[SiiNN321]

Half of the posts on this thread are mindless bickering( though i guess that's half of posts in general)

Not mindless at all. Most of the posts are +1s because they enjoy the current meta of DE giving players a shortcut to everything. The rest are those who believe that this is a terrible idea and making this game any easier would result in its own end.

[Wolfssenger]

Not mindless at all. Most of the posts are +1s because they enjoy the current meta of DE giving players a shortcut to everything. The rest are those who believe that this is a terrible idea and making this game any easier would result in its own end.

Allow me to rephrase what I meant to say. The bickering of a few individuals is obnoxious and unnecessary.

[Eyeless]

But this doesn't at all alleviate the grind to actually level every single piece of equipment we never wanted to touch, nor enjoy playing with. Alternate means of mastery need to be provided so it's not just about mindlessly filling bars.  Your forma solution however sounds nice!

[Wolfssenger]

But this doesn't at all alleviate the grind to actually level every single piece of equipment we never wanted to touch, nor enjoy playing with. Alternate means of mastery need to be provided so it's not just about mindlessly filling bars. Your forma solution however sounds nice!

Tell me what you think of this then

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/496317-creating-a-reason-to-rank-up/page-4#entry5572792

[(PSN)Q-T-R-1-0]

+5

[Eyeless]

Tell me what you think of this then

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/496317-creating-a-reason-to-rank-up/page-4#entry5572792

 

I don't mean any offense, but this doesn't do much but give us another carrot on a stick to run after, and nothing to alleviate the monotony of Weapon / Mastery grind. 

 

We're still going to need to run a lot of frames and weapons we don't want to, through an agonizingly slow XP race that is only lessened by Draco and / or affinity boosters, while stomaching the redundant modding system and it's mandatory damage mods and meta element combos. 

 

While your proposal incentivizes players to grind and chug along it doesn't alleviate any of it. It just gives us one more wall to hurdle, another step in the gear power creep. It's not radical, it's more of the same, unfortunately. 

Edited July 29, 2015 by Hastur609

[EinheriarJudith]

We're still going to need to run a lot of frames and weapons we don't want to, through an agonizingly slow XP race that is only lessened by Draco and / or affinity boosters, while stomaching the redundant modding system and it's mandatory damage mods and meta element combos.

Im sorry but no. lvling frames isnt agonizingly slow not even the slightest without boosters. 1 round of T1 Def to wave 20 and that frame will be in the 20s another  to 20 and its max lol all within less than an hr see what we have here is people who think this game is actually grindy. here are some ways they can actually bring the grind up to what other GRINDY games are like. they could as ive said in a previous post increase the amount of xp needed to lvl a weapon, wf, sentinel etc per forma, they could hard cap the amount of xp that can be gained per mission they could lock higher missions to mastery rank and then reduce xp gain for mastery to 100 for frames and 50 for weapons.

 

SiiNN321 made a fantastic point by saying "Not mindless at all. Most of the posts are +1s because they enjoy the current meta of DE giving players a shortcut to everything. The rest are those who believe that this is a terrible idea and making this game any easier would result in its own end." because this is what we are seeing in this thread.

Edited July 29, 2015 by EinheriarJudith

[-dicht.Amducias-]

Yes i definetely like ur thought, i would like every idea to make polarizing less annoying and time consuming.. because of the god damned @(*()$ new utility slot i need to polarize every frame i have 1-3 times now.. DE you really WANT us to abuse lootcaves right?!?!?

[-dicht.Amducias-]

Im sorry but no. lvling frames isnt agonizingly slow not even the slightest without boosters. 1 round of T1 Def to wave 20 and that frame will be in the 20s another to 20 and its max lol all within less than an hr see what we have here is people who think this game is actually grindy. here are some ways they can actually bring the grind up to what other GRINDY games are like. they could as ive said in a previous post increase the amount of xp needed to lvl a weapon, wf, sentinel etc per forma, they could hard cap the amount of xp that can be gained per mission they could lock higher missions to mastery rank and then reduce xp gain for mastery to 100 for frames and 50 for weapons.

SiiNN321 made a fantastic point by saying "Not mindless at all. Most of the posts are +1s because they enjoy the current meta of DE giving players a shortcut to everything. The rest are those who believe that this is a terrible idea and making this game any easier would result in its own end." because this is what we are seeing in this thread.

Perfect u17 can come and now do this with 20 different frames 2 times.. good luck in not going crazy

[EinheriarJudith]

Perfect u17 can come and now do this with 20 different frames 2 times.. good luck in not going crazy

my point exactly people who think this game is grindy have alot to learn. it could be way worse as ive given examples. but no people who dont like doing actual work just want the easy pass. this game is already easy if it isnt easy enough for people there are other titles that offer no grind whatsoever. no telling anyone to stop playing just saying there are other options but this isnt even an issue.

[taiiat]

As long as people only care about ignoring"streamlining" gameplay they will continue to consider everything that isn't THE BEST BUILD to be mastery fodder.

(I also understand game mechanics well enough to project how well an item will perform once fully upgraded.)

meh. who cares about people that only consider the current Le Reddit Meta Loadout.

as far as i'm concerned, they're not people.

yes, redesigning Game Scaling from the ground up would be nice, to make stacking 55-110x Damage less important and making skill in Gameplay more important, all of that good stuff.

but, giving 1 Level every other Mastery Rank when Polarizing can be done in about one day's worth of work, as opposed to rebuilding Scaling from the ground up which would take atleast 6 months of focused Development time.

it doesn't make a huge difference for Meta bullsnot, but whatever. it lets Players that actually play the game have a more pleasant time with it. i certainly would be more interested in Polarizing this or that if i didn't need to have to choose between playing Scrub Missions if i want to actually use the Equipment, or soaking passive XP from other Players to avoid using it completely.

i'd rather do the first one, even if the second one is objectively indeed much faster (especially if you do AFKFarming :s).

but i'd rather the first option wasn't playing Scrub Missions, and was just playing the game in general. it's a QoL improvement that works within the boundaries of the game that we already have. no, it doesn't solve the Damage stacking problem or Enemy Scaling problem or whatever. but it atleast lets Players still play whatever Missions and use the things they're supposed to be Leveling.

i.e. - if i Polarize a piece of Equipment, i want to go back to the same Random Missions i was playing right before.

that means random Lv15-35 stuff.

but if i Polarize something, that Equipment can't participate in Missions of that Level, even though 25-35 feels good to play with(when things are Leveled), where Enemies aren't trivial but aren't unfair.

how am i supposed to use something i Polarized in a random Lv20 Mission and still have things feel interesting? i can't. the Lv0... Weapon literally cannot participate against a LV20 Enemy. but playing Lv1-5 Missions where it can participate is boring as hell.

to make matters worse, Warframes are super nerfed when they're not Leveled. Warframe Abitlities are almost completely useless until they're Leveled up. this is extremely frustrating to me, as like Weapons, the Warframe effectively cannot participate until it's Leveled up.

so many Abilities basically can't hit any Enemies, and affect them for only a fraction of a second while Leveling a Warframe. the Ability is therefore effectively useless.

random example off the top of my head, Elemental Ward and Vex Armor lasting like, 4 seconds, and doing less than 1/4 of their basic unmodded bonuses when Leveled. you've got to be freaking kidding me. that's not even usable.

Borderlands 2 and not Grindy in the same sentence

uwot?

Borderlands 2 has fairly awful randomization for the unique interesting guns. especially if you want a specific arrangement of parts because you find those fun? good luck getting that.

to make matters worse, you have to replay the entire game just to get another single roll on a special Weapon with an interesting mechanic to it.

i don't want to replay a 40 hour game just to fight one Enemy a second time. :|

- - - - - - - - - - -

just to make sure that it's been seen, i'll quote myself here.

with more thought on it, i continue to like the general concept.

one Level every other Mastery Rank is sufficient to alleviate that 'ugh i have to play a super boring Mission for my Weapon to be able to participate' feeling you get when you Polarize Equipment.

and one Level every other Mastery Rank would mean 14 Ranks at MR30 - which is more than enough to allow putting one or two Mods onto any Weapon, so that you can skip the truly boring stuff.

this is good, because then there's less reason to consider powerfarming, because now whether you like the Weapon or not, you atleast can not need to play Missions sub Lv10 and be super bored because your whatever can't participate for a few Missions.

that's plenty for a QoL improvement so that you aren't required to play content that is boring for you. having 8(16 w/ potato) pts on my Equipment when Polarizing it right this moment? i'd totally continue doing the same Missions i'd be playing otherwise.

sure, it would be more difficult (or just slower and less efficient, that's usually what it means), and i'm fine with that.

i'd still take that Equipment anyways, because atleast it can have a Mod or three on it, so the Equipment can be relevant enough in the Missions i want to play to continue playing them.

Edited July 29, 2015 by taiiat

[Eyeless]

-snip-

 

Everything I say and everyone else says here is simply subjective. Never, no matter how strongly I voice my opinion, will I ever state anything I say is a fact. Play the same tileset while a gun for the sixth time, for the two hundredth time (not exaggerating, three years of accumulative gameplay, not counting breaks and/or long absences) things get drull. Things feel the same no matter how long you stay away because not enough has changed, but I digress. 

 

You don't think the game is grindy, I have leveled enough things and played the game enough and seen enough of what it has to offer to disagree. Even when not trying to get Latest Shiny A, B, and C, rare resource acquisition alone gets tedious with how often things get repeated, hence the grind. 

 

Playing the game regularly is a slow affair, waiting 20 minutes in a T2 defense bored because the enemies are fodder but your gun shoots marshmellows makes the leveling process unsatisfying.  Hence why -to me- it feels like a slog. Many of us do, whether you agree or not. Enough so that it's seen as an acknowledged problem by the Devs themselves. 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Allow me to rephrase what I meant to say. The bickering of a few individuals is obnoxious and unnecessary.

I am not complaining; because even though I think they are just disagreeing to disagree with me, it is still keeping the thread bumped either way.

 

uwot?

Borderlands 2 has fairly awful randomization for the unique interesting guns. especially if you want a specific arrangement of parts because you find those fun? good luck getting that.

to make matters worse, you have to replay the entire game just to get another single roll on a special Weapon with an interesting mechanic to it.

i don't want to replay a 40 hour game just to fight one Enemy a second time. :|

 

The only weapon in that game that is overly grind intensive is the Cobra, and they came out and said that that was a mistake..

[taiiat]

The only weapon in that game that is overly grind intensive is the Cobra, and they came out and said that that was a mistake..

but you need to replay the entire game just to roll the dice a second time.

that's not very reasonable.

'Borderlands 3' has addressed this, but Borderlands 2 still sits in that issue, where most of the unique Equipment (which is the interesting stuff) can only be gotten once in a playthrough.

that plus randomization that is not very awesome compared to the first game(many complaints that RNG is worse in the sequel), heh.

honestly, it's of no surprise whatsoever to me that so many people decided to just spawn the guns they wanted. because they wanted to use things that are a fun Playstyle to them, but the game doesn't want them to be able to.

[Wolfssenger]

I am not complaining; because even though I think they are just disagreeing to disagree with me, it is still keeping the thread bumped either way.

Touche

[AlphaHorseman]

Everything I say and everyone else says here is simply subjective. Never, no matter how strongly I voice my opinion, will I ever state anything I say is a fact. Play the same tileset while a gun for the sixth time, for the two hundredth time (not exaggerating, three years of accumulative gameplay, not counting breaks and/or long absences) things get drull. Things feel the same no matter how long you stay away because not enough has changed, but I digress. 

 

You don't think the game is grindy, I have leveled enough things and played the game enough and seen enough of what it has to offer to disagree. Even when not trying to get Latest Shiny A, B, and C, rare resource acquisition alone gets tedious with how often things get repeated, hence the grind. 

 

Playing the game regularly is a slow affair, waiting 20 minutes in a T2 defense bored because the enemies are fodder but your gun shoots marshmellows makes the leveling process unsatisfying.  Hence why -to me- it feels like a slog. Many of us do, whether you agree or not. Enough so that it's seen as an acknowledged problem by the Devs themselves. 

Exactly. I do hope DE addresses these issues.

[Kakusei]

Everything I say and everyone else says here is simply subjective. Never, no matter how strongly I voice my opinion, will I ever state anything I say is a fact. Play the same tileset while a gun for the sixth time, for the two hundredth time (not exaggerating, three years of accumulative gameplay, not counting breaks and/or long absences) things get drull. Things feel the same no matter how long you stay away because not enough has changed, but I digress. 

 

You don't think the game is grindy, I have leveled enough things and played the game enough and seen enough of what it has to offer to disagree. Even when not trying to get Latest Shiny A, B, and C, rare resource acquisition alone gets tedious with how often things get repeated, hence the grind. 

 

Playing the game regularly is a slow affair, waiting 20 minutes in a T2 defense bored because the enemies are fodder but your gun shoots marshmellows makes the leveling process unsatisfying.  Hence why -to me- it feels like a slog. Many of us do, whether you agree or not. Enough so that it's seen as an acknowledged problem by the Devs themselves. 

 

Well, that's exactly what I wanted to say to him, but it looks like you've done it for me before I had a chance to do it so... Thanks !

 

Your opinion seems to be shared by many people playing warframe, me (and many of my friends who stopped playing because of things like that) included, and that's why I think that master forma solution will ease the stress of some of us... You know, that "Aww, I have to forma my awesome weapon again, but I still have this and that and this to up to 30... So I can't or else this awesome weapon won't be able to carry the rest of my equipement" feeling. That would prevent us for wasting time doing Appollodorus just to up THAT weapon for it to be viable in higher levels content.

 

We don't all have the luxury (nor the motivation, for vets especially... You know, those who burned out and then came back, but playing more slowly to enjoy the game a bit more) to spend much time in this game, so for the short amount of time those kind of players have, that'd be nice if they didn't have to waste it by doing low level survivals/defenses/interceptions for the sake of releveling stuff... Plus that'd be a nice reward for the high MR players, instead of feeling their "experience" in the game is useless.

 

Also, lore-wise, forma doesn't make sense in the first place... "Hey ! You just added a new polarity for a mod card slot in your weapon ! Now you don't know how to use it anymore ! Enjoy mastering it again !"

[EinheriarJudith]

-snip-

if you're tired of playing take a break. you are also not the only MR 19 with loads of equipment. and im definitely done going back and forth on opinions if DE decides they want to do something i wont complain ill accept the change. the toxicity in these threads is just overwhelming. when someone doesnt agree with the op's millionth idea for some kind of change shared by a handful of players automatically no one is allowed to have one against it and when a proper argument has been given said people go to the hive mind mentality. enjoy your day guys. been a proud player for almost 3 years and will continue to be. looking forward to what DE has in store for us.

Edited July 30, 2015 by EinheriarJudith

[SiiNN321]

Allow me to rephrase what I meant to say. The bickering of a few individuals is obnoxious and unnecessary.

If you think it is obnoxious and unnecessary, then that is your right. But also note that no one is forcing you to read this post. 

 

Also there is no grind to get one weapon to level 30. Especially if you never use the weapon and level it by using your "spec'd out ROLFCOPTR360NOSCOPE, so OP that it one hits all enemies you would ever face, maxed weapon" running Draco like a large portion of people do. If there is a weapon or set of weapons that you don't want to level, then do not level it. Simple as that. I see no issue there. Sure you might miss out on MR points, but if you care that much about MR, you should be happy enough to have more fodder for it to rank it up

[SiiNN321]

If someone is here to disagree with you for the sake of disagreeing, then they should remove themselves. I am here simply posting my opinions about this game and the direction it is taking. I was in TS with my clanmates and when I mentioned the word "meta" and "Warframe" in the same sentence, he just laughed for a good five minutes. This game's current "meta" is Draco. People swarm to Draco to level and re-level their equipment over and over again. By all these posts, it makes me wonder how many weapons does each individual on Warframe keep and forma? From what is sounds like here, nearly all the weapons are kept and each one has 4-7 forma on them. Now if this is the case, this is the ONLY solution for you. But because I believe this is NOT the case, I stand by my belief that this idea will only plummet Warframe down a deeper hole. 

 

This game is easy. Affinity comes as easy as breathing. Skill optional for most game modes. Players are burned out by replaying the same mission over and over, which is their fault, and come to the forums complaining that it is too hard to forma everything they want. No one is telling you to forma every weapon. Choose the ones you liked playing and forma them. Use them from Rank 0 to 30 and only that. Get better with that weapon. Truly master it. Otherwise what is the point? Forma the weapon because you read it on Reddit that it is OP? That is pointless.

 

 

On a related note:

Recently, I have realized that in this game, I live update to update. Waiting for new things to arrive. New missions, new bosses, Raids, expansions. I thought once DE announced the year of quality, that I might have something greater drawing me to this game, but this year is a disappointment. I do like select things but ever since the Phoenix Intercept Tactical Alert (which I have to say I TRULY LOVED because it was actually a fun, challenging game mode. At least for those who did it the way that didn't involve cheesing it.) this game has been rolling down at an accelerated pace. This game needs more difficulty and more challenge and more content that isn't mindless. This game needs an overhaul it will never get. That is a sad thing as I truly believe this game has so much potential.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

but you need to replay the entire game just to roll the dice a second time.

that's not very reasonable.

'Borderlands 3' has addressed this, but Borderlands 2 still sits in that issue, where most of the unique Equipment (which is the interesting stuff) can only be gotten once in a playthrough.

that plus randomization that is not very awesome compared to the first game(many complaints that RNG is worse in the sequel), heh.

honestly, it's of no surprise whatsoever to me that so many people decided to just spawn the guns they wanted. because they wanted to use things that are a fun Playstyle to them, but the game doesn't want them to be able to.

There are very few weapons that require you to replay the entire game to get. Most weapons have drops, and they drop the entire weapon, not just components. And you don't have to farm for weapon mods, or fusion cores either.  Not to mention you are allowed to edit your weapon stats in the PC version of Borderlands, so it is a moot point anyway.

 

I liked the first Borderlands better as well.

 

If people could just spawn an Ash Prime blueprint without grinding for it or paying real money in WF, then they would do so too.  Don't even try to deny it.

 

 

 

-snip-

Sitting in defense missions for 4 hours to level a weapon up isn't fun. Tossing 2 forma on it and taking it into T4 is. The Master Forma Solution lets vets skip a little of the boring to get back to the fun. 

 

People with lower MR, at least get to drop a serration on their weapon after formaing it for the first time.

[AlphaHorseman]

Sitting in defense missions for 4 hours to level a weapon up isn't fun. Tossing 2 forma on it and taking it into T4 is. The Master Forma Solution lets vets skip a little of the boring to get back to the fun. 

 

People with lower MR, at least get to drop a serration on their weapon after formaing it for the first time.

That's the part I like about this solution. It ensures that Vet players can continue to play in higher level content with higher level gear, while beginner players aren't left in the dust, and can continue to level their items and have a goal to strive for. It affects the entire system, rather than just one end or the other.

[taiiat]

being able to Cheat makes Grinding not exist

that's.... not quite what i meant.

i don't like Cheating. getting the specific Weapon setup you wanted in Borderlands 2, was annoying enough to where i myself ended up Spawning guns and editing stats.

because i got freaking fed up with rolling the dice 250 times and still not getting even the style of gun that i wanted.

ex. - i got an E-Tech Dahl Shock SMG from the gold crate once. i fell in love with it, it was my SMG of choice when i felt like using an SMG. hipfire was quite reasonable for when i was being swarmed, and i generally don't like Burst Weapons but it had a Foregrip to reduce wobbling and that made the Bursts feel awesome.

best of all, unlike the other 99.100% of SMG's in the game, IT DIDN'T HAVE AN 8X OPTIC ON IT. holy christ, that shouldn't be a problem. it's a machine gun, why does it always spawn with this ridiculous high Zoom Optic that makes it unusable :|

eventually, as i kept playing, Enemies obviously went up in Level, and eventually it's Damage just stopped being viable anymore. it's Damage wasn't super amazing when i got it, but it was fairly good, very viable.

so eventually i had to try to get another one if i wanted that same playstyle. 250+ dice rolls later, i had still not gotten the stat upgrade to my perfect SMG.

so i had to resort to Cheating, because the game did not want to let me play the game in the way i wanted to play it. no, instead i needed to use other Playstyles for a million hours of Gameplay until i found what i want again, only to throw that away again several hours later when it also stops being viable.

i had similar experiences with most of the Unique Weapons and Equipment that i liked the Playstyle of. getting another one that was viable for my current Level was either replay the entire game, or dice roll another thousand times until i get the same thing again.

i have always been NOT very fond of tradiational Level systems. because they break everything. all they serve to do is make Content not viable, literally does nothing else. Warframe has a similar problem, stats artificially increase, and eventually that means that a fun Playstyle that you liked becomes too weak to be viable anymore.

basically, you might only need to get the Weapon and you're done, but getting the Weapon is definitely not any easier than it is in Warframe, infact it's probably much more difficult.

i prefer Warframe's method really, because since it's split up into different tasks, atleast you can feel like you're making progress rather than it being a Slot Machine that spits in your face.

and you also need to 're-get' the Weapon over and over, because you need higher Level Stats on it again and again in order to keep the things that you like viable. whereas Warframe, you get the thing once.

- - - - -

and.... a lot of things in Borderlands 2 required you to replay the entire game to get another of... because the Bosses or whatever just don't Respawn, therefore, you can't get another one.

a bazillion guns, sure, but nobody likes everything and when there's a bazillion things in one pool, your RNG chances of getting what you want are... basically nonexistent.

like getting Forma when it was new. that yummy 0.67% Weighted Chance.

- - - - -

also, it's kind've depressing that Borderlands 2 (probably the first game too, but the first game felt sluggish and such to me for some reason. Player Movement felt clunky or something, i couldn't enjoy it at all, i don't know why, so i don't remember much of anything from it), despite being a very 'Arcadey' and 100% non realistic game, got Burst Weapons pretty much accurate to reality, while Warframe, still has them wrong.