Yet Another Cooldown Discussion

[420degreequicksopeswag]

(not sure if this belongs in the right subforum)

 

So i hear cooldowns were a thing back in the early days of warframe.

Somehow, it didn't work out, which is why energy became a thing.

 

My question is: How did cooldowns fail?

 

From what i've heard so far, cooldowns failed because people would sit in a corner, waiting for their 4 to recharge.

 

But... Shouldn't you be using your other 3 abilities?

If you are doing nothing but waiting for your 4 to come off cooldown, isn't there a problem with the other 3 abilities?

 

I'm not asking for a return of cooldowns(yet) i am asking what went wrong with cooldowns.

Edited July 4, 2015 by 420degreequicksopeswag

[ngrazer]

Ehh... Maybe in alpha, I dunno... But I don't remember such thing as cooldowns in CBT.

[Gelkor]

(not sure if this belongs in the right subforum)

 

So i hear cooldowns were a thing back in the early days of warframe.

Somehow, it didn't work out, which is why energy became a thing.

 

My question is: How did cooldowns fail?

 

From what i've heard so far, cooldowns failed because people would sit in a corner, waiting for their 4 to recharge.

 

But... Shouldn't you be using your other 3 abilities?

If you are doing nothing but waiting for your 4 to come off cooldown, isn't there a problem with the other 3 abilities?

 

I'm not asking for a return of cooldowns(yet) i am asking what went wrong with cooldowns.

 

Waiting for your 4 to come off cooldown is cheesey, waiting for your other abilities to come off cooldown just isn't fun. Just think about how a few of the abilities that have a semi-cooldown (chaos, rhino stomp) are often lamented that they can't be cast back to back. 

Edited July 3, 2015 by Gelkor

[S7ORM]

(not sure if this belongs in the right subforum)

 

So i hear cooldowns were a thing back in the early days of warframe.

Somehow, it didn't work out, which is why energy became a thing.

 

My question is: How did cooldowns fail?

 

From what i've heard so far, cooldowns failed because people would sit in a corner, waiting for their 4 to recharge.

 

But... Shouldn't you be using your other 3 abilities?

If you are doing nothing but waiting for your 4 to come off cooldown, isn't there a problem with the other 3 abilities?

 

I'm not asking for a return of cooldowns(yet) i am asking what went wrong with cooldowns.

First, [DE] tried new techniques for abilities, to add variance to the game (cast more than once while the previous one is active -- like Vauban's Tesla. Only one Tesla at a time would be crappy, but just letting them spam Tesla forever would be OP; Energy allowed players to use a certain number of Tesla at a time).

Second, it was really slow and kind of annoying waiting for your single target abilities, etc, to come back up.

 

Energy was original a way to allow player more freedom in controlling their warframes, and give [DE] more freedom in creating abilities (like toggle abilities, which don't really work with a cooldown).

 

And yeah, it would get to the point where your guns would do virtually no damage, so you'd have to hide and rely on your radial abilities for damage (no LoS then).

Edited July 3, 2015 by S7ORM

[BoneBreakerx]

basicly is slowed down the game too much... well thats what i have heard...

[Oswalder]

First, [DE] tried new techniques for abilities, to add variance to the game (cast more than once while the previous one is active -- like Vauban's Tesla. Only one Tesla at a time would be crappy, but just letting them spam Tesla forever would be OP; Energy allowed players to use a certain number of Tesla at a time).

Second, it was really slow and kind of annoying waiting for your single target abilities, etc, to come back up.

 

Energy was original a way to allow player more freedom in controlling their warframes, and give [DE] more freedom in creating abilities (like toggle abilities, which don't really work with a cooldown).

 

And yeah, it would get to the point where your guns would do virtually no damage, so you'd have to hide and rely on your radial abilities for damage (no LoS then).

 

I'm curious, do you (or anyone) happen to remember how long the cooldowns were?

[420degreequicksopeswag]

Waiting for your 4 to come off cooldown is cheesey, waiting for your other abilities to come off cooldown just isn't fun. Just think about how a few of the abilities that have a semi-cooldown (chaos, rhino stomp) are often lamented that they can't be cast back to back. 

-How long were the cooldowns

-should 4 abilities be that spammable?

 

First, [DE] tried new techniques for abilities, to add variance to the game (cast more than once while the previous one is active -- like Vauban's Tesla. Only one Tesla at a time would be crappy, but just letting them spam Tesla forever would be OP; Energy allowed players to use a certain number of Tesla at a time).

Second, it was really slow and kind of annoying waiting for your single target abilities, etc, to come back up.

 

Energy was original a way to allow player more freedom in controlling their warframes, and give [DE] more freedom in creating abilities (like toggle abilities, which don't really work with a cooldown).

-if cooldowns were a thing, i think vauban would be able to have more than 1 tesla at a time

-how long were the cooldowns

-give toggle abilities a (very long)duration perhaps? If banshee can use sound quake for more than 5 minutes, something is wrong.

 

 

Edit: how long were the cooldowns

Edit 2: how long were the cooldowns

Edited July 3, 2015 by 420degreequicksopeswag

[S7ORM]

-How long were the cooldowns

-should 4 abilities be that spammable?

 

-if cooldowns were a thing, i think vauban would be able to have more than 1 tesla at a time

-how long were the cooldowns

-give toggle abilities a (very long)duration perhaps? If banshee can use sound quake for more than 5 minutes, something is wrong.

 

 

Edit: how long were the cooldowns

Edit 2: how long were the cooldowns

Varied based on the skill, that's how long. I don't remember the exact numbers.

[420degreequicksopeswag]

Let's see: How would you feel if energy was replaced with cooldowns?

-No more scrabbling about for energy orbs

-No more energy pizza abuse

-No more greedy mag problems

-No more sitting in a corner, waiting for energy siphon to give you energy

-No more unavoidable energy leech eximus BS

-Use your 1st-3rd abilities for once

-No more press 4 to win

-Abilities can be used in any situation, just a little less often

-No more reliance on how many enemies you kill to determine ability usage

-Trinity is no longer a walking power generator

-All i can think of for now

 

-Streamline: 30% cooldown reduction

-Fleeting expertise: 60% cooldown reduction

(cap CDR at somewhere around 75%)

 

-Flow and primed flow?

Idk about those, delete them i guess and refund everything...

WHICH MEANS A FREE WARFRAME SLOT!!!!!!!!!

 

-Trinity's energy vamp will need to be changed

 

But wouldn't cooldowns be a much better alternative to energy?

I have never seen a game that allows you to spam your single most strongest ability(4) repeatedly, over and over.

 

[RealPandemonium]

-Flow and primed flow?

Idk about those, delete them i guess and refund everything...

WHICH MEANS A FREE WARFRAME SLOT!!!!!!!!!

Implying that people actually run Flow.  Only real reason to run Flow is with QT (which also gets nixed by this proposal.)

[Khalixxa]

Something that hasn't been tried is cooldowns with energy simultaneously. Also, not all abilities need cooldowns anyways.

 

It sounds like the problem originally was that abilities were too powerful by themselves and people found it most effective to hide rather than taking other actions. Cooldowns were blamed for the problem.

 

The funny thing is that reloading is exactly the same kind of wait, and everybody is fine with it. Furthermore, if we had an energy system that actually worked properly, people would be forced to "wait" in much the same way.

[Thaumatos]

Something that hasn't been tried is cooldowns with energy simultaneously. Also, not all abilities need cooldowns anyways.

 

It sounds like the problem originally was that abilities were too powerful by themselves and people found it most effective to hide rather than taking other actions. Cooldowns were blamed for the problem.

 

The funny thing is that reloading is exactly the same kind of wait, and everybody is fine with it. Furthermore, if we had an energy system that actually worked properly, people would be forced to "wait" in much the same way.

 

Pretty much.  It boils down to dev-logic.  People waited for their "uber" to come back so they didn't have to play the game.  What does a dev see?  People waiting on cooldowns.  Solution?  Remove cooldowns.

 

It couldn't possibly be that people search for the easiest way to play the game...no...never...

 

This is NOT a DE issue.  This is a game developer issue.  I've seen this too many times with too many development teams.  Even the ones as revolutionary as the DE team.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Thaumatos

[TangyBlueBerry]

Back when cooldowns were a thing, so were skill trees, and each one of the frames power was a node in the tree. In order to get all possible buff nodes for cd reduction, range, duration, damage, etc we had to sacrafice points from other areas of the tree. So even back then we didn't have all our powers. So the "just use your 1-3 till your 4 is back" is not a valid excuse. CD also rendered some frames terrible as aoe damaging was unreliable and so was duration based frames who wantde to be in that power at all times. Also the cd were unbalanced and several of the 1-3 skills had long cooldowns for no good reason. It slowed the pace of the game by a heavy degree, and honestly back then a lot of the first poweres suck harder than my ex sucking the life out of me Also heavily unbalanced on weapon, I remember having somewhere around over 100% fire rate on weapons such as fury's. Reload speed was actually available though.

It turned the game into a "use your poweres whenever you want" to a "use your powers only when you need too". No one liekd that, it was terrible dark times. Also when mods were introduced, poweres were mod cards that needed to be ranked up and people would just slot only 1 or 2 mods on their frame and build only for those. The day they made powers innate on frame leveling was the happiest day of my warframe life.

The energy system has given us the ability to store uses passivly while not using our powers. When we had cds we at any time only had 1 charge at any given time. Anyway I'm tired, this was 3 years ago so I may not remeber everything well, just belive me when I say the energy system is much better, at least for this game and how it functions.