Nullifiers As A Bandaid Fix And How To Balance Them.

[Scylax]

For those saying Nullifier is a challenge , is it not , it's just annoyance

Sooooo.... Basically the same as every Warframe enemy unit ever?

[GreyEnneract]

Being skewed ever so slightly to the side isn't going to be enough to stop you from killing a nullifier as a valk when hysteria lasts for more than a min. and half the time the push is just enough to inconvenience you from reviving someone which i really wouldn't call CC considering you can undo the distance pushed in about half a second. The nullifier itself has no CC abilities at all and without the ability to nullify powers would not be able to stop a valk charging it

You get knocked back far enough to completely cancel the revive. Whether you want to consider it CC or not doesn't change the fact that it is CC.

Also forgot to mention Arson Eximus. Frames being able to safely dispatch Nullifiers is not bad. Like I said, they are meant to prevent AOE power spam (press 4 to win), not gimp everything in the game other than a minute number of weapons.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

For those saying Nullifier is a challenge , is it not , it's just annoyance , it take a bit more time to kill , make many weapon useless 

block your skills

 

Oh wait , it's totally block your skills , this is something like mind breaking ...

 

Corpus have technology to BLOCK 100% your powers and having hight capacity to survive / tank ...

 

Simple question : what really stop them for making only Nullifier or actually "nullified powers planet"? You know what I mean , As soon you enter your power is gone until your destroy whatever powering it...

They are a challenge. They just need to be balanced for additional weapon types.

[-Amaterasu-]

You get knocked back far enough to completely cancel the revive. Whether you want to consider it CC or not doesn't change the fact that it is CC.

Also forgot to mention Arson Eximus. Frames being able to safely dispatch Nullifiers is not bad. Like I said, they are meant to prevent AOE power spam (press 4 to win), not gimp everything in the game other than a minute number of weapons.

The purpose of nullifiers is to prevent you from relying too heavily on your powers and try to get people to employ tactics other than power spam. The biggest problem i think they have is how they make weapons like bows and snipers completly useless and the fact that ammo consumption to take them down is disproportional to something like a rifle.

[AlphaHorseman]

Could something like this be an alternative? And add some scaling to them as well:

 

Corpus Nullifiers:

The idea behind the Nullifiers was a very interesting one, and one that could seriously alter the dynamic of the game, but as it stands, the Nullifiers act more so to limit player weapon choice, rather than hard-stop our powers solely. As such, my feedback for the Nullifiers is that they need a bit of a rework, to help them actually do their job equally of stopping our powers, but not limiting player play style, both with powers and with weapons.

 

Firstly, let's rename the Corpus Nullifiers Corpus Guardians. The mechanics of the Guardian unit is that it deploys a stationary 180 degree shield arc that protects all units behind it from CC/Utility effects and damage that is incoming from the direction it is facing. Think of it as a larger version of Alad V's thrown down shield during his Mutalist Boss Fight. Removing the limit on the amount of damage able to be done to the shield, but also upping its base HP, gives it a strong resistance to our powers, but does not limit our weapon variety. Additionally, any Corpus weaponry fired out of the shield receives a small damage bonus. (Tenno may also utilize this boost, should they be carrying Corpus weaponry).

 

Thus, the Guardian acts as protection for the Corpus against our powers, but does not hinder our weapon choice.

 

Players can now either tough it out in front of the shield against the enemy squads and fire upon it/use their powers until it falls. Or they can use their abilities and/or parkour skills to vault over/around the shield to kill the units taking cover behind it. The Guardian is now a unit that is useful and interesting to fight, but does not outright remove self-cast powers like Iron Skin or Hysteria, as the shield protects the occupants from outside interference/damage, but it does not remove them.

 

Scaling for the reworked Nullifier are as follows:

 

Levels 1-10 gives units behind it immunity to CC/Utility and damage incoming from the direction the shield is facing. It's somewhat like how we have them now, but with the bubble cut in half to ensure players still have to deal with a large enemy AoE ward, but it doesn't outright gimp multiple play styles.

 

Levels 11-20 gives a higher increase to damage for Corpus weaponry fired outwards from the shield. Beneficial and synergetic with the Corpus army, this change allows the Guardian to be a great asset on the battlefield for those who have Corpus weaponry equipped, Tenno included.

 

Levels 21-30 gives the Guardian the ability to remove procs from units entering into, or already within, its defensive radius. Bolstering its essence as a defensive ward, this change allows the Guardian to further support the units it protects.

 

Levels 31-40 allows the Guardian's shield to deflect incoming fire/powers in a random direction dictated by RNG. Somewhat of a buffer for the Guardian, it adds a bit more defense to the EHP of the shield, thus allowing for a short extension of defense for the units behind it. However, outside units beware, the ricochets might prove deadly.

 

Levels 41-50+ allows the Guardian to absorb a portion of incoming damage and converts it into health (max 10% of incoming damage). The added defense could be telegraphed by the shield brightening or shimmering (for our color blind friends), thus visually showing an added protective measure present on the reworked Nullifier.

 

The reworked Nullifier now becomes a potent tool to stopping our powers, but not so limiting as to how to deal with the threat. In addition, it functions as a useful tool for any who can surmise how to use it once it is deployed.

 

It gives them the mechanic of protecting units from our powers, but it doesn't discriminate against play styles or weapon choices either.

 

A good alternative, no?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

A good alternative, no?

No.

 

The ideal solution would be if a sniper could pop a bubble in the same amount of time it took an automatic weapon.

[GreyEnneract]

No.

 

The ideal solution would be if a sniper could pop a bubble in the same amount of time it took an automatic weapon.

My ideal solution would be that having enough punch through would just penetrate the bubble entirely, dealing no damage to the bubble itself.

That way if you have a high fire rate weapon, you can just shrink the bubble. While if you have a rifle or bow (or put on a base punch through mod for once), you can just completely kill the Nullifier.

Next, I would not allow buffs to not be dispelled upon entering, or apply a previous idea that instead decayed buffs rapidly (though not at a 5x rate in the example) instead of completely dispelling a buff.

As a side note though, I hope the bug where you kill the Nullifier yet it keeps up its bubble for ~5s whilst already dead is fixed soon.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

My ideal solution would be that having enough punch through would just penetrate the bubble entirely, dealing no damage to the bubble itself.

That way if you have a high fire rate weapon, you can just shrink the bubble. While if you have a rifle or bow (or put on a base punch through mod for once), you can just completely kill the Nullifier.

Next, I would not allow buffs to not be dispelled upon entering, or apply a previous idea that instead decayed buffs rapidly (though not at a 5x rate in the example) instead of completely dispelling a buff.

As a side note though, I hope the bug where you kill the Nullifier yet it keeps up its bubble for ~5s whilst already dead is fixed soon.

That's a terrible idea.  Punch-through would neuter them badly enough.  If they couldn't dispell buffs then they may as well not even exist.

 

Buffs SHOULD be dispelled by entering a nullifier's shield.

[GreyEnneract]

That's a terrible idea.  Punch-through would neuter them badly enough.  If they couldn't dispell buffs then they may as well not even exist.

 

Buffs SHOULD be dispelled by entering a nullifier's shield.

You forget that they still nullify all other powers. Didn't know that was useless. If that's true then make it so they can only dispel buffs, correct?

[AlphaHorseman]

No.

 

The ideal solution would be if a sniper could pop a bubble in the same amount of time it took an automatic weapon.

Yes, hence why having there be no damage cap is what I put into the rework. It allows all weapons to have an even playing field against the Nullifiers, rather than just high rate of fire weapons. DPS wise a Paris Prime is comparable to a Boltor Prime, although maybe not on even footing, the changes proposed allow them to be more so level against Nullifiers.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

You forget that they still nullify all other powers. Didn't know that was useless. If that's true then make it so they can only dispel buffs, correct?

-cast hysteria

-run into bubble, ignoring all damage

-kill nullifier like the bubble doesn't even exist

 

It's a terrible idea. If should nullify every power. The only powers that should effect it are direct damage powers that have to be manually aimed at it from the outside. Auto-target and AoE skills should not effect the bubble, and if you step inside it, buffs should be nullified.

[GreyEnneract]

-cast hysteria

-run into bubble, ignoring all damage

-kill nullifier like the bubble doesn't even exist

 

It's a terrible idea. If should nullify every power. The only powers that should effect it are direct damage powers that have to be manually aimed at it from the outside. Auto-target and AoE skills should not effect the bubble, and if you step inside it, buffs should be nullified.

There is nothing wrong with having to direct all attention toward the nullifier, go inside to prioritize it, and kill it.

You'll just have to agree to disagree, as it isn't a terrible idea.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

There is nothing wrong with having to direct all attention toward the nullifier, go inside to prioritize it, and kill it.

You'll just have to agree to disagree, as it isn't a terrible idea.

It really is a terrible idea.  You can already go inside the bubble to kill them easily. It just carries an inherent risk with it. If you take that away, then there really isn't any reason to take the nullifier seriously.

[GreyEnneract]

It really is a terrible idea.  You can already go inside the bubble to kill them easily. It just carries an inherent risk with it. If you take that away, then there really isn't any reason to take the nullifier seriously.

It just isn't terrible, and the risk is too high.

You can keep going, but it will go on endlessly.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

It just isn't terrible, and the risk is too high.

You can keep going, but it will go on endlessly.

It isn't, and I can do it on tower 4 so I am not sure what your excuse is. What frame and weapons are you using that makes a nullifier so terrifying to you?

[GreyEnneract]

It isn't, and I can do it on tower 4 so I am not sure what your excuse is. What frame and weapons are you using that makes a nullifier so terrifying to you?

It is, and anyone can do T4. You're assuming they're "terrifying", when in actuality they offer too much as a single unit.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

It is, and anyone can do T4. You're assuming they're "terrifying", when in actuality they offer too much as a single unit.

It isn't, and if you can do it on T4 then what's the issue?  You also avoided that question.  What frame are you using that you can't pop into a Shield long enough to pop a nullifier.

[GreyEnneract]

It isn't, and if you can do it on T4 then what's the issue?  You also avoided that question.  What frame are you using that you can't pop into a Shield long enough to pop a nullifier.

It is, constant back and forth. If you are still confused on what the issue is, I suggest re-reading through the thread.

I did not avoid the question, the question is just irrelevant. I could be using any frame.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

It is, constant back and forth. If you are still confused on what the issue is, I suggest re-reading through the thread.

I did not avoid the question, the question is just irrelevant. I could be using any frame.

It isn't. The question isn't irrelevant.  I have absolutely no problems dealing with the nullification of buffs even on buff heavy frames such as Trinity or Valkyr. That's exactly why you refuse to answer the question.  You know your complaint has no real substance, which is why you are refusing to qualify it with actual hard facts. Once you do, people will actually be able to test it and see how flimsy your argument actually is.

[GreyEnneract]

It isn't. The question isn't irrelevant.  I have absolutely no problems dealing with the nullification of buffs even on buff heavy frames such as Trinity or Valkyr. That's exactly why you refuse to answer the question.  You know your complaint has no real substance, which is why you are refusing to qualify it with actual hard facts. Once you do, people will actually be able to test it and see how flimsy your argument actually is.

Now you're projecting. You as well are not using any "hard facts", we are both just using anecdotal evidence, because that is all that can be used.

I was waiting for you to try and delve further into the condescending, rude territory, and here it is.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Now you're projecting. You as well are not using any "hard facts", we are both just using anecdotal evidence, because that is all that can be used.

I was waiting for you to try and delve further into the condescending, rude territory, and here it is.

I already gave you hard facts, Trinity and Valkyr. No projecting needed. Calling your flimsy argument and lack of trying to support it with facts is not being rude.

 

I can't force you to tell us which frames are so terribly affected by nullifier shields that they need nerfed into uselessness, but it just makes your argument paper thin.

[GreyEnneract]

I already gave you hard facts, Trinity and Valkyr. No projecting needed. Calling your flimsy argument and lack of trying to support it with facts is not being rude.

 

I can't force you to tell us which frames are so terribly affected by nullifier shields that they need nerfed into uselessness, but it just makes your argument paper thin.

You're telling me that you, yourself, are fine on Valkyr and Trinity. Whilst I, myself, still see them as being a problem even with those frames.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

You're telling me that you, yourself, are fine on Valkyr and Trinity. Whilst I, myself, still see them as being a problem even with those frames.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

You see it's not anecdotal evidence. If your claim is that no Bumble Bee can fly then I only need to find a single example of the opposite to counter your claim.

 

You forget that there are other options for dealing with the nullifier beyond going in the bubble. You can also shoot the bubble or just use a weapon that ignores the bubble.

[GreyEnneract]

You see it's not anecdotal evidence. If your claim is that no Bumble Bee can fly then I only need to find a single example of the opposite to counter your claim.

 

You forget that there are other options for dealing with the nullifier beyond going in the bubble. You can also shoot the bubble or just use a weapon that ignores the bubble.

You say you can deal with Nullifiers fine with X frame every single time, I have to take your word for it, since I see no evidence and it's your personal experience. Meaning it's anecdotal. So let's try this again. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anecdotal

Do not try and switch goal posts, if you're saying the main option for dealing with Nullifiers is just by shooting them, then there should be no reason to cancel buffs in the first place. It's like you're arguing against yourself now, you are really all over the place.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

You say you can deal with Nullifiers fine with X frame every single time, I have to take your word for it, since I see no evidence and it's your personal experience. Meaning it's anecdotal. So let's try this again. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anecdotal

Do not try and switch goal posts, if you're saying the main option for dealing with Nullifiers is just by shooting them, then there should be no reason to cancel buffs in the first place. It's like you're arguing against yourself now, you are really all over the place.

I am not arguing against myself. I am pointing out that other options exist if you don't want to be debuffed, meaning there is even less reason to remove the debuffs. You said it is too risky on every frame, meaning I only need to be able to do in consistently on any ONE frame to prove you wrong.

 

Let's not forget, that the onus is on you to prove your own claim of it being too risky, which you have not.

Edited July 7, 2015 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame