Question To All People Who Hate Draco

[Renan.Ruivo]

Moved to the appropriate section

[(PSN)geb9696]

What is DRACO?

Its a PC "Master Race" issue.  Us console peasants just suffer from the nerf consequences.

[SweetJackal]

Fact is that DE balances and nerfs or buffs based on internal metrics far more than player input. If you think DE nerfs things like Draco due to a "vocal minority" you're very mistaken. So much of what DE does is based on data logged from what players are doing, not what they are saying. That's also incidentally how pretty much every online game is balanced btw.

The problem here isn't the metrics, it's that DE is looking at the metrics to draw a conclusion instead of asking why the metrics lay as they do.

 

Why was pull so much higher in energy usage than other powers?  Pull is a spammable ability that was used with it's augment to fulfill several roles for a team, one of which was providing fuel for a grind combo on Draco.  Many other abilities that would have near that level of utility have durations and as such don't need to, or are blocked from being spammed.

 

Why was the Draco Farm so common?  Draco is a source of certain resources that in game sinks have in high demand while providing a large number of enemies in a short manner of time. 

 

Why are gamemodes that give a constant high enemy density favored?  Certain resources are designed to have a painfully slow trickle of a drop rate during normal play while having a high demand from the resource sinks and currently have their only meaningful means of acquiring being kills.  Heavy favoring kills for resource intake pushes gamemodes that demand heavy killing from the players to the forefront and puts limited kill missions on the back burner.

 

How do you stop the G.Mag from giving the Mesa free fuel?  You can alter channeled abilities to not allow the player to pickup items while they are on (like Ash's 4) or you could alter Greedy Pull in many different ways while maintaining a teamplay effect.

 

How do you fix the gamemode/reward favoritism?  Change the distribution of rewards over time by giving significant rewards to achieving certain bonus objectives within the mission just as Tower Sabotages do.

 

Instead DE saw the massive energy use in Pull and concluded that they needed to bring Pull's energy usage back in line.  They see an overabundance of G.Mag+Mesa combos in places like Draco and figure they need to do something to kill the combo directly.  There is a story behind the metrics as to why they appear this way, using metrics to draw a conclusion allows you to adapt to current situations and trends but learning why the metrics are as they are allows you to manipulate the situation that gave those results in the first place.  More options, more control and more power over the situation.

Edited July 8, 2015 by SweetJackal

[Aratir]

Doesn't affect anyone else? The syndicate nerf affected me. Afk system? Yep. Complete trivialization of Mastery Rank? Sure. The past couple nerfs? Mhmm. Me not being able to play in any way but solo because Mesa/Saryn destroys everything on the map before I even see it? Uh-huh. Tell me more how these things don't affect me in any way.

Warframe is becmoing like an mmo, solo players have to suck it up for what the farmers do, wait till they nerf your frame because its too op in raids....

[makaloff95]

Congratulations?

I have leveled my stuff the same way, but I don't have any problem with people farming on Draco.

They want to level fast? Ok.

It's understandable when you need to put 5 forma on a weapon and just want to get it done as soon as possible.

Beacuse when they come out from the camping in draco, they wont fit in since only thing they know is camping, and if they get challenged they cry to oblivion......also, it limits people since draco only players will be more of a burden than usefull *looking at raids*

[jfhsanseiIII]

I think my problem is that it isn't played so mch as it's used. There's no challenge to be had to people MR farm there. It's not fun.

[jfhsanseiIII]

Beacuse when they come out from the camping in draco, they wont fit in since only thing they know is camping, and if they get challenged they cry to oblivion......also, it limits people since draco only players will be more of a burden than usefull *looking at raids*

I have to agree. I see too many farming minded groups fall to pieces because if something challenges their group it goes south hard. I think this is a great point.

[Leavith]

Do i have problem with Draco..........Nah not really is a lootcave people find those and make them all the time considering the game the way it is people will always try to farm a certain tile set not because that's their play style ,not because they like doing something as boring as that ,but because they are greedy and want things fast.Do i blame them no if u had the choice to take shortcuts would u of course most would.

AT THIS POINT IT GETS REALLY LONG

Now while people suggest hey this is DE fault cause they are the one taking action,well yes is their fault for keeping the game the way they want to,but is also our fault for abusing mechanics.

DE has vision of the game they want to keep it that way.

People say just let people play the way they want.....Well this is sweet to say but their action have not been ignore and are affecting everyone.

Now people are still saying this ignoring the fact on what they bring upon us by the judgement of DE .....Stating this is not what we want for our game to be.....Which that's not wrong the game is their property we are investing money and time for entertainment not to own it.

 

And in this thread i see that some people have mention instead of all that lets look at the core of the problem right......Well if they fix the core of the problem which in my eyes the core are the players,but looking at it from those players perspective the core is the fact materials are hard to get and is hard to level your weapons.

Oh sweet orokin cells they are meant to be rare but draco would get u about 5 or more in each run.

Oh sweet fast experiance their the stealth kill mechanic but that would be to hard for people to try but draco can easily level your weapons without u having to use them.

 

See making something not rare no more and making something easier this will pretty much solve draco farming......BUT it will kill the challenge.

Although for draco over reliant players this would still be hard for them cause now they have to use the void to farm for other pieces to get more weapons.

 

Now i love the fact that fixing the core would be consider because like i said if u stop making material rare and exp farming rare were is the progress.......the start chart?the Story?the Void?the events? all those things eaither are ignore or also use for farming.Example the most recent event with protecting the grineer i would probably have to say the input might have been the test that showed DE what the player mindset is and showed them this is not what we wanted to see in our game.

 

Like in all honesty that full mission as i ran it all i saw was....Mesa,Gmag,Nekros,Frost,Nova,Loki,Saryn....and well the Nekros was usually me and the Loki but i was always running undead build to keep the grineer protected or running Loki disarm to keep the grineer protected.

 

But really think about it the point of Draco was to farm exp quick and to get material fast.But this same team used in draco taken into a defense event pretty much made the defense easy.

 

I found it very coincidental how the last part of the event had us facing the lvl of enemy you would normally face in draco and the same tileset you deal with in draco.Not some grineer underground facility were you would expect to find someone hiding.

 

And i mean just look at the reward that event could have been like the other were is 3 leveled but no just 2 level.Now if u looked at the data DE got from the event what do you think DE saw?

 

But really some say just fix the core of the problem...Well DE kind of needs player and since they cannot fix those who play their game they might as well throw band aids on the game.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Leavith

[Genzaio]

My problem with it?

 

People give it a bad name, only hardcore farmers go there which ultimately demotivates the rest of us who dont have the required gear to play the game normally and not this "Efficiency farming" crap.

 

Not that hard to understand really..

Edited July 8, 2015 by Genzaio

[VCaptiion]

I have leveled all my stuff by actually playing the game.

Unfortunatly that doesn't make sense in Warframe nowaday, people can still buy overpowered end-game weapon, maxed primed mods and get taxi'd to Pluto when they are only Rank 2. Are they actually playing the game? I don't think so.

 

This game is all about cooperate, Greedy Pull encourges your teammates stick together and benefits the whole team.

Now it's gone, alone with the incoming copter nerf, good luck getting your energy orb, wasting 4x of your time doing repetitive interception/sabotage/spy mission...oh, and your Ash prime farming.

 

I am fine with powerleveling the useless gear, since most of them can't deal with overpowered bulletsponge enemy, while DE has no intention to buff them or make augments for them.

Edited July 8, 2015 by VCaptiion

[NoeleVeerod]

Draco powerlevelling is boring, and I couldn't say otherwise. I dare anyone to say that Draco powerlevelling all day is fun.

 

Should one powerlevel? Hell yes, why should you use a weapon you don't enjoy at all (in my case: the Simulor, which I finished right now) when you can level it up to 30 in a couple runs or less and never look at it again?

Should one always powerlevel? Of course NOT! If you get used to powerlevelling only, you are missing out on the rest that the game has to offer, and you will actually still not be eligible for the real endgame, because MR these days means sh*t nothing. Also, if you enjoy using levelling a weapon, you will enjoy it even outside of Draco.

 

Now, who is right and who is wrong? Actually, none is right or wrong. Who gives a sh*t about what the proper way of playing is. So long as you're not glitching like hell or cheating like a loser, it's fine in my book.

It certaily won't be my problem if a teammate of mine takes 2 months to level up a weapon, or if a teammate gets to MR19 in one month but is still a noob. Nor it would be yours, truth be told.

 

And, unfortunately, Warframe is structured as a huge farm and grind. If you don't do either of these things, you are getting nowhere - that is, of course, if you plan to play difficult missions and endgame.

[Omnimorph]

It's a curious thing, the reason I farmed Draco with my GMag for a few days before the nerf was because I wanted to level a forma-ed weapon up that it had been my goal to get right from the start of the game.  When I first played I loved the MK-1 Braton, then the Braton, and I promised myself I'd get a Braton Prime one day and forma the heck out of it.

 

So essentially, I farmed because I wanted to play the game - i.e. I wanted to use a particular weapon in Void content and get it maxed as soon as poss (now 5 forma).

 

To me, there has to be a balance between grind and gratification; too much grind is just as likely to make me leave the game as having things too easy and getting bored quickly.  The devs have to have some outlets for people who have played the game, smelt the roses, and would be likely to leave anyway, if it weren't for the possibility of doing cute efficiency things and ramping up the acquisition of the final weapons and frames, or the perfection of their builds - that's their last bit of fun before bye bye anyway.

 

I think sometimes developers don't have enough faith in their own games, so they get a bit too antsy about people farming efficiently.  I know DE aren't exactly hostile to efficient farming (otherwise they wouldn't have invented the GP augment at all, they wouldn't have frames that are helpful for farming at all), but they probably want to keep it some sort of cap on it.

 

I do think the GP change was a bit extreme - why didn't they just make it LoS (like Pull itself is, after all) so the player had to be more active?  Why on earth did they make it PBAoE in the first place?  Didn't they realize it would be OP that way?

[helix.hex]

i personally loved seimeni(the one below draco.)

 

if it has infested i am in. i %^&*ing love fighting infested. in fact before i left i got so $%$^ when they moved them off of jupiter. it was my best place to have fun while leveling weapons.

 

the fact of the matter is this: till DE figures out (or least ^&*@ing LISTEN) that alot of the game is well, dull or an unnecessary shot to groan then they will never make the game as fun as it could be.

 

all-in-all: draco is a means to an end: people want to farm because it is about the only thing you can do to get somewhere in this game nowadays

[ratsroloc]

As someone who uses the Draco method of powerleveling weapons, the issue I have with it is that it seems to be a pigeonhole for anyone trying to acquire any amount of useful resources, experience points, and syndicate rep. Having tried Spy missions for leveling, for the same amount of time I could get ten times the XP at Draco and level up multiple weapons at once as opposed to having to run Spies four or five times just to level up one weapon. Why would I bother with that? It takes up way too much time, and I'd rather be grinding weapons up to where I can then use those weapons to acquire other gear that I want from the Void.

 

The thing is we need more reasons to go to places with other game modes. There's no reason to do anything other than Void runs, certain alerts, raids, Draco, tactical alerts, or syndicate missions. Those missions, barring Draco, offer good rewards for a reasonable amount of effort. In fact, some endless Void runs can get rather grueling and very engaging in a proper set-up, and when you finally get that piece you've been looking for you get an amazing sense of accomplishment for having beaten the grind, but you don't get that feeling anywhere else.

 

The closest thing I can think of recently that we've had is, besides the latest Ash Prime release, the new nightmare mods that were added to the nightmare mode drop tables. It's three mods, and two of them aren't too hard to get, but Armored Agility is apparently very difficult to find, and it's something that I'm curious to try myself, and I'm sure other players would agree with me.

 

But for the love of the Lotus DE, please we need some reason to do something other than Survival, Defense, and Draco Interceptions. We need to see viable options in terms of our resource gathering. And in fact this isn't even the first time we've seen players grinding one mission type over and over. Remember Xini? And the huge amount of Nanospores that came from Infested Defense missions?

[EmptyDevil]

My problem?

 

 

Draco is one node where horrible meta farming is going on, and i am ok with it as long farming stays there. Issue arises when campfarmers from Draco start thinking that their meta setup is good for every other mission ( exterminate, capture, spy ) and start bringing meta setups to those missions.

 

 

Seeing Mesa and other campfarming frames using camp tactics in missions where you dont need them is quite annoying. Seeing Mesa in every mission is annoying as hell.

 

Quoted for truth.

 

This is essentially my problem with it too. When Draco farmers kept their setups on that node, it was fine. As soon as they started pushing that meta onto every player and mission, it became a big problem.

[ivlr3vil]

The new meta is too boring, it used to be T4 S because of cores and Draco was the map just for T4 keys. The Draco setup has bled into T4 D where it was once all about getting as far as possible and using any gear. Old meta had obvious strong frames but there was still frame variety.

[(PSN)geb9696]

The new meta is too boring, it used to be T4 S because of cores and Draco was the map just for T4 keys. The Draco setup has bled into T4 D where it was once all about getting as far as possible and using any gear. Old meta had obvious strong frames but there was still frame variety.

Using any gear is a bit of a stretch. Before the meta was disarm loki, nova, vauban, and mag. Nullifiers did more to harm that combo then Mesa or greedy pull.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I have nothing against Draco or anyone who runs it, however I don't want the grind walls to be raised to keep pace with the portion that is powergaming Draco. If enough people loudly powergame Draco, it's probably going to hold an effect on the cost of new content, which is bad for the portion of the community that does not run Draco or any lootcave equivalents.

 

Everyone should be allowed to play how they want, I am just worried that the gap in advertised viability is going to eventually incur negative consequences on the rest of the game. We've already been able to see farmspots influencing the entire game recently. 

That's DE's fault for putting massive grind walls in the game in the first place. De claims they don't want massive grindwalls then slap in even more right after saying that.  People find away around the grindwall, and DE just slaps another on in its place.

 

Don't blame players for DE's decisions.

[Slaviar]

So, there are two main reason people hate Draco: boring and encourages cheap gameplay.

I have to agree with it- yes, Draco is terribly boring- but if I can rank my forma'd weapon in 20 minutes on Draco or spend hours on other missions... I chose Draco- because most weapons require multiple formas. Not to mention all mastery fodder.

About second- yes, I don't like that when there's Mesa everywhere. But that's grind's fault. Forma on C dicourages normal gameplay. Not big issue on surv or int because time it takes to get to C is similar on surv and almost similar on int regardless of frames used but on def "afk team" can and will clear waves much faster than any other setup. It's similar thing to rushing ext with Saryn.

IMO real issue isn't Draco, Mesa or Gmag- real issue is how unrewarding most nodes are and how time consuming it is to rank weapons and frames. Instead of fixing it- giving better spots for affinity and reducing grind- DE nerf frames. RJ first got LoS, then this stupid awareness. GP was nerfed and is now useless. Every DE's attempt to combat "afk farming" affects normal gameplay in a negative way.

[Siekier]

Beacuse when they come out from the camping in draco, they wont fit in since only thing they know is camping, and if they get challenged they cry to oblivion......also, it limits people since draco only players will be more of a burden than usefull *looking at raids*

 

This is only true in some cases.

There's a difference between using Draco sometimes to forma your gear a few times and spending your whole life on Draco.

If someone is powerleveling it doesn't mean he's terrible at playing the game "properly". It often means he wants to deal with leveling as fast as possible.

Which is understandable, given how big is the difference between two methods.

[Kalenath]

What's your problem with it?

 

Boring.

 

As.

 

Hell.

 

NOTHING else in Warframe has made me want to uninstall the game as much as playing 45 minutes on Draco. NOTHING.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Kalenath

[ROSING]

I remember I used to play mobile defenses--the "old fashioned" way mind you--and then stopped when the radial javelin spammers spilled into it. Same with Draco and other interception missions, and now I hear that with mesa and mag its even worse, I can't get in a single kill--I don't even want to touch them now for fear I'll run into some people who believe two people pressing the same button over and over again while everyone else does nothing is "teamplay."

I'm here to kill things, not watch numbers go from 0-30.

Edited July 9, 2015 by ROSING

[Volume]

It's like being presented with a huge, magnificent cake with hundreds of tasteful layers and detailed decorations, only to see people throwing it in a mixer and drinking the resulting paste with a straw, because it's easier and faster to eat.

 

beautiful, and the best way I've seen it described ever.

 

Do i have problem with Draco..........Nah not really is a lootcave people find those and make them all the time considering the game the way it is people will always try to farm a certain tile set not because that's their play style ,not because they like doing something as boring as that ,but because they are greedy and want things fast.Do i blame them no if u had the choice to take shortcuts would u of course most would.

AT THIS POINT IT GETS REALLY LONG

Now while people suggest hey this is DE fault cause they are the one taking action,well yes is their fault for keeping the game the way they want to,but is also our fault for abusing mechanics.

DE has vision of the game they want to keep it that way.

People say just let people play the way they want.....Well this is sweet to say but their action have not been ignore and are affecting everyone.

Now people are still saying this ignoring the fact on what they bring upon us by the judgement of DE .....Stating this is not what we want for our game to be.....Which that's not wrong the game is their property we are investing money and time for entertainment not to own it.

 

And in this thread i see that some people have mention instead of all that lets look at the core of the problem right......Well if they fix the core of the problem which in my eyes the core are the players,but looking at it from those players perspective the core is the fact materials are hard to get and is hard to level your weapons.

Oh sweet orokin cells they are meant to be rare but draco would get u about 5 or more in each run.

Oh sweet fast experiance their the stealth kill mechanic but that would be to hard for people to try but draco can easily level your weapons without u having to use them.

 

See making something not rare no more and making something easier this will pretty much solve draco farming......BUT it will kill the challenge.

Although for draco over reliant players this would still be hard for them cause now they have to use the void to farm for other pieces to get more weapons.

 

Now i love the fact that fixing the core would be consider because like i said if u stop making material rare and exp farming rare were is the progress.......the start chart?the Story?the Void?the events? all those things eaither are ignore or also use for farming.Example the most recent event with protecting the grineer i would probably have to say the input might have been the test that showed DE what the player mindset is and showed them this is not what we wanted to see in our game.

 

Like in all honesty that full mission as i ran it all i saw was....Mesa,Gmag,Nekros,Frost,Nova,Loki,Saryn....and well the Nekros was usually me and the Loki but i was always running undead build to keep the grineer protected or running Loki disarm to keep the grineer protected.

 

But really think about it the point of Draco was to farm exp quick and to get material fast.But this same team used in draco taken into a defense event pretty much made the defense easy.

 

I found it very coincidental how the last part of the event had us facing the lvl of enemy you would normally face in draco and the same tileset you deal with in draco.Not some grineer underground facility were you would expect to find someone hiding.

 

And i mean just look at the reward that event could have been like the other were is 3 leveled but no just 2 level.Now if u looked at the data DE got from the event what do you think DE saw?

 

But really some say just fix the core of the problem...Well DE kind of needs player and since they cannot fix those who play their game they might as well throw band aids on the game.

That text in your spoiler tag is very insightful analysis of the most recent tactical alert.  I find it very impressive that you linked the two. I noticed the difficulty and tileset spike and change, but it didn't occur to me that this was intentional to gather data about Draco. You're probably right! Good eye.

 

So, there are two main reason people hate Draco: boring and encourages cheap gameplay.

I have to agree with it- yes, Draco is terribly boring- but if I can rank my forma'd weapon in 20 minutes on Draco or spend hours on other missions... I chose Draco- because most weapons require multiple formas. Not to mention all mastery fodder.

About second- yes, I don't like that when there's Mesa everywhere. But that's grind's fault. Forma on C dicourages normal gameplay. Not big issue on surv or int because time it takes to get to C is similar on surv and almost similar on int regardless of frames used but on def "afk team" can and will clear waves much faster than any other setup. It's similar thing to rushing ext with Saryn.

IMO real issue isn't Draco, Mesa or Gmag- real issue is how unrewarding most nodes are and how time consuming it is to rank weapons and frames. Instead of fixing it- giving better spots for affinity and reducing grind- DE nerf frames. RJ first got LoS, then this stupid awareness. GP was nerfed and is now useless. Every DE's attempt to combat "afk farming" affects normal gameplay in a negative way.

 

The time efficiency is something I touched on in a recent thread of mine... https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/482547-i-think-we-need-to-clarify-we-actually-want-to-play-the-game/#entry5382430

 

However, I did not even touch the fact that abilities get changed in an attempt to band-aid the unintended play! Rewards / XP should be redistributed for other game modes.

 

That is a very serious consequence, and I think that all abilities affected due to Draco, Viver, Egate, Stephano, etc., be looked at again once the star chart is changed and the void is blown up. Effectively, if it was done to bandaid something that will no longer be a problem, then we can rip off the bandaid, right?

 

Sidenote: Yes, forma BP on rotation C is very discouraging, this is true. Getting a T4 key guaranteed is better for most players, and that could be yet another reason people run Draco. Better incentive, etc.

[(PSN)Onyxflamegod]

I don't see the issue with Draco personally. There's always been a "Draco"
First it was ODD. Then it was Sechura. Excavation. Etc. There's always a "farm" especially on this game where 90% of the content is farming fodder and DE KNOWS it's all fodder or they wouldn't keep making blatantly downgraded or RNG equipment in the first place.

[ROSING]

I don't see the issue with Draco personally. There's always been a "Draco"

First it was ODD. Then it was Sechura. Excavation. Etc. There's always a "farm" especially on this game where 90% of the content is farming fodder and DE KNOWS it's all fodder or they wouldn't keep making blatantly downgraded or RNG equipment in the first place.

Y'see, when people say this, my question is: "has there always been two macros and two bystanders at these various locations?

Perhaps yes there will always be a lootcave (though that isn't guaranteed) but the pointis not the fact that there is a lootcave, it's what happens inside. Regular gameplay? Let it be, sure. Ridiculous monotonous ability spamming? That's not as acceptable.

And also, you know, the fact that draco setups have started to infect other game modes.