Exalted Blade Makes Excalibur A Living Fluctus And Deafeats The Ability Purpose

[RealPandemonium]

Berserker builds work decently. Not my piece of cake personally (turns xcal into a machinegun basically), but they definitely work.

Status mods i agree are meh.

About Life Strike: it can be obtained through dark sector runs but it's anything but readily available. For reference ever since the armistice i play DSs a lot but i still haven't dropped it.

Tbh, on the bit about trivialising level >30 content. Most damage frames do exactly that. Think of Saryn, Ember, Ash, Mesa for static missions...

It's why the scaling is so stupid. There are frames like ember and saryn that up to level 30 can just run around a mission pressing a button (4) every once in a while and kill everything barely seeing a mob in the whole mission.

Most damage based frames end up being devastatingly OP on lower end content, because of how scaling works. I mean, if with the right mods it can kill level 100 mobs, i'm not surprised it trivialises content at level 30 and below...

It's a little sad, huh?  

 

I think we need a huge nerf on both player and enemies, and for enemies to scale less steeply into later game but also pose more of a challenge through non-numerical means.  

[Autongnosis]

It's a little sad, huh?

I think we need a huge nerf on both player and enemies, and for enemies to scale less steeply into later game but also pose more of a challenge through non-numerical means.

More than just a little to be honest. I wholeheartedly agree on the second part.

[GuyOnCrack]

How do any of these particularly benefit EB?

 

Life Strike I can see, but the other two?  Also Life Strike can be readily obtained from a couple of Dark Sector runs.  

Better status chance, faster attack speed. Why wouldn't these benefit Excalibur.

[GuyOnCrack]

Berserker builds work decently. Not my piece of cake personally (turns xcal into a machinegun basically), but they definitely work.

Status mods i agree are meh.

About Life Strike: it can be obtained through dark sector runs but it's anything but readily available. For reference ever since the armistice i play DSs a lot but i still haven't dropped it.

Tbh, on the bit about trivialising level >30 content. Most damage frames do exactly that. Think of Saryn, Ember, Ash, Mesa for static missions...

It's why the scaling is so stupid. There are frames like ember and saryn that up to level 30 can just run around a mission pressing a button (4) every once in a while and kill everything barely seeing a mob in the whole mission.

Most damage based frames end up being devastatingly OP on lower end content, because of how scaling works. I mean, if with the right mods it can kill level 100 mobs, i'm not surprised it trivialises content at level 30 and below...

A lot damage frames hit this strange wall of falloff where your gun is the better choice over casting your spells. Why bother casting your spell when that leaves you open to attack and you don't actually kill the enemy? This makes CC frames shine in late game content because you have an incentive to use your spells because they still benefit you.

That's why I like Excalibur's rework, because he has the tools to take on late game content, Radial Blind and the melee counter(Which needs to be longer, doesn't matter for Excalibur but just for any frame). His ult can kill a lot of units but it requires you to actually play the game unlike Mesa or Saryn and it rewards players because Excalibur can go into late game unlike those two frames. But his ult isn't a press 4 watch everything die and it's not a spam e watch everything die unlike what people actually say.

[(PSN)ZammnZaddy]

People are trying to turn Warframe into DC Universe online with these nerfs. I would understand the nerfs if the enemies weren't getting buffed but that's not the case.

Edited July 18, 2015 by (PS4)GHOSTBEAST1000

[Autongnosis]

1.[A lot damage frames hit this strange wall of falloff where your gun is the better choice over casting your spells. Why bother casting your spell when that leaves you open to attack and you don't actually kill the enemy? This makes CC frames shine in late game content because you have an incentive to use your spells because they still benefit you.]

 

2.[That's why I like Excalibur's rework, because he has the tools to take on late game content], Radial Blind and

 

3.[the melee counter(Which needs to be longer, doesn't matter for Excalibur but just for any frame).] 

 

4.[His ult can kill a lot of units but it requires you to actually play the game unlike Mesa or Saryn and it rewards players because Excalibur can go into late game unlike those two frames.]

 

5.[but his ult isn't a press 4 watch everything die and it's not a spam e watch everything die unlike what people actually say.]

1. That's absolutely a thing, but for XCal too - it's only much further into endless, where people usually never go. It's a part of this weird scaling system where every damage frame is godly at lower levels and progressively less and less useful later on, up to the point wher as you said you'd rather use your guns than your abilities (which is incidentally the reason why late game Mesa builds usually revolve around the lasso and Shatter Shield). While CC frames somewhat suck at lower levels (or, at least, they don't feel so godly), but later on they become the heavyweights.

It's something that needs to be looked at, because it basically creates this divide where if you want to play a bit more seriously and go challenge enemies that are actually really strong you can basically forget to bring anything that isn't a CC frame... But the problem is that those same damage frames that are kept out of serious faceplaying are also an absolute overkill in "normal" gameplay - see excalibro on 40mins T3/4 survival, it's a walk in the park, way too easy.

 

2. That's true, but let me just point out that XCal is somewhat of an hybrid frame because it's not just its damage that lets him take on the higher end of the spectrum, but his preddy damn good hard CC. There are very few frames better at hard CC than XCal, even post line of sight: Vauban is one, Mirage is the other, and that's pretty much it.

 

3. YES! YES!

Melee counter definitely needs a look. Maybe it should be 3s with quick melee and 9s when equipping melee, or getting a bonus stacking duration of like 1s for every kill done (so let's say you get a 2x with 5 kills your counter would stay for 8s after the last strike etc)... There are countless possibilities.

 

4. Yes and no. I mean, yes to everything and no to the fact that Saryn and Mesa cannot go into late game. They can. They're good girls. The build just needs to be focused around something different than their ultimate.

 

5. Completely agree. That's a big bonus point in my opinion.

[Ronyn]

It's a little sad, huh?  

 

I think we need a huge nerf on both player and enemies, and for enemies to scale less steeply into later game but also pose more of a challenge through non-numerical means.  

The word "nerf" is misleading.....What you're really asking for is a rebalance. And yes...we definitely need one.

[GuyOnCrack]

1. That's absolutely a thing, but for XCal too - it's only much further into endless, where people usually never go. It's a part of this weird scaling system where every damage frame is godly at lower levels and progressively less and less useful later on, up to the point wher as you said you'd rather use your guns than your abilities (which is incidentally the reason why late game Mesa builds usually revolve around the lasso and Shatter Shield). While CC frames somewhat suck at lower levels (or, at least, they don't feel so godly), but later on they become the heavyweights.

It's something that needs to be looked at, because it basically creates this divide where if you want to play a bit more seriously and go challenge enemies that are actually really strong you can basically forget to bring anything that isn't a CC frame... But the problem is that those same damage frames that are kept out of serious faceplaying are also an absolute overkill in "normal" gameplay - see excalibro on 40mins T3/4 survival, it's a walk in the park, way too easy.

 

2. That's true, but let me just point out that XCal is somewhat of an hybrid frame because it's not just its damage that lets him take on the higher end of the spectrum, but his preddy damn good hard CC. There are very few frames better at hard CC than XCal, even post line of sight: Vauban is one, Mirage is the other, and that's pretty much it.

 

3. YES! YES!

Melee counter definitely needs a look. Maybe it should be 3s with quick melee and 9s when equipping melee, or getting a bonus stacking duration of like 1s for every kill done (so let's say you get a 2x with 5 kills your counter would stay for 8s after the last strike etc)... There are countless possibilities.

 

4. Yes and no. I mean, yes to everything and no to the fact that Saryn and Mesa cannot go into late game. They can. They're good girls. The build just needs to be focused around something different than their ultimate.

 

5. Completely agree. That's a big bonus point in my opinion.

1. But most people do go into post level 80 content very often. Even the raids are 80+ enemies. And what you consider walk in the park, is actually playing the game. Loki with infinite invisibility with any gun plus ammo mutation is pretty easy to do 40 mins in a T4 Survival. While with Excalibur you have to use your radial blind, move around with slash dash and maybe use radial javelin because your bored or something (Radial Javelin falls under the gun is better so why use it category).

2. If you build him CC, he can get a pretty strong blind, but that's sacrificing EB instead. Strong EB makes a weak RB. Vice versa. Plus EB has finishers and stealth multipliers making it a good damage utility. It can be made both ways.

4. If you build them damage, no, they don't go into late game but we fall back into the whole, "Why bother using my damage skills if my weapon can do more and are more reliable". Build Saryn with Regenerating Molt, and Shatter Shield and Shooting Gallery with Mesa and you can go into late game but those are CC abilities not damage.

 

Honestly I think having a fusion of gun and ability play would help damage frames abit, not Excalibur though, he's great right now. But something like Mesa Ballistic Battery skill but have it on other abilities. Like Ember's World on Fire. Have it absorb Fire damage done around Ember and it multiplies it by a certain amount. Do that with Saryn too. Then we limit the amount of spam and have a way to get them into late game but that's just a hypothesis. Chances are that this fix would not actually do anything and I'm just talking out of my ! right now.

Edited July 18, 2015 by GuyOnCrack

[kleerr2]

 With Excalibur you have to use your radial blind If you build him CC, he can get a pretty long blind, but that's sacrificing EB instead. Strong EB makes a weak RB. Vice versa.

There!I fixed it for ya.

[GuyOnCrack]

There!I fixed it for ya.

Thank you my good sir!

[tripletriple]

So excalibur finally gets good, and we have some people who want to nerf him for being good. Peopel do realise that you have to aim with excalibur right? Unlike aoe frames who wipe the map. I'm starting to think people don't get off mercury. Doing good with a frame proves he is doing his job. You have to prove he is too good. able to exploit content. 

Edited July 19, 2015 by tripletriple

[TheBrsrkr]

So excalibur finally gets good, and we have some people who want to nerf him for being good. Peopel do realise that you have to aim with excalibur right? Unlike aoe frames who wipe the map. I'm starting to think people don't get off mercury. Doing good with a frame proves he is doing his job. You have to prove he is too good. able to exploit content.

Again with the "aiming". Currently, EB's only effective limiting factors are a somewhat slow travel time and enemy CC. Given that enemy CC affects everyone, unspecific to EB, it doesn't really count. You cannot justify infinite punch through, 50k damage on a non-damage build, slow energy burn, high "fire rate" and long range with the fact that you need to point it in a direction and hit e a couple times.

[tripletriple]

Again with the "aiming". Currently, EB's only effective limiting factors are a somewhat slow travel time and enemy CC. Given that enemy CC affects everyone, unspecific to EB, it doesn't really count. You cannot justify infinite punch through, 50k damage on a non-damage build, slow energy burn, high "fire rate" and long range with the fact that you need to point it in a direction and hit e a couple times.

On what balance scale are you getting your justification from? I can certainly call it justified. It scales, it works and it has a travel time and needs to pointed at the enemy.

 

Doing high damage, good fire rate is all inherently good things. Where is that non justifiable? The only thing I agree with is the insane punch through.

Edited July 19, 2015 by tripletriple

[TheBrsrkr]

On what balance scale are you getting your justification from? I can certainly call it justified. It scales, it works and it has a travel time and needs to pointed at the enemy.

Doing high damage, good fire rate is all inherently good things. Where is that non justifiable? The only thing I agree with is the insane punch through.

You have literally no reason to turn EB off. It has all the damage of the highest tiered weapons with none of the drawbacks, destroys the very concept of a melee-centric frame, and turns Excalibur into what the title of this thread suggests. 50k damage through all surfaces at a high rate and long range us in no way balanced, especially for a sword based frame.

[tripletriple]

You have literally no reason to turn EB off. It has all the damage of the highest tiered weapons with none of the drawbacks, destroys the very concept of a melee-centric frame, and turns Excalibur into what the title of this thread suggests. 50k damage through all surfaces at a high rate and long range us in no way balanced, especially for a sword based frame.

Excalibur was built to have only his ultimate on. I think that is very apparent. Whether you think it is fun or not is something different. It should have all the damage of the highest tiered weapons considering he is based on using his ability and NOT weapons. 

 

It's drawbacks are that it has travel time and you need to aim it at each target. It is completely fine. 

Edited July 19, 2015 by tripletriple

[Buzkyl]

It's drawbacks are that it has travel time and you need to aim it at each target. It is completely fine. 

 

Let's be real, "aiming" it is not that difficult, they have a decent travel time and 40M punchthrough, so 1 wave can easily take out multiple targets.

 

And the waves are easily spammable enough that just massing E in general direction will do the trick.

 

 

EB as a sword itself is fine, it should be low cost as excalibur's skills scale off it. However the waves portion of it need to be looked at.

[RealPandemonium]

Better status chance, faster attack speed. Why wouldn't these benefit Excalibur.

Why would you need either of those when each wave one-shots every enemy it hits?

[----Fenrir----]

Excal is fine, leave him alone already. For comparison sake, I have both Excal and Valkyr, I can solo 60 minutes T3/4 survival with both of them. Excal with EB kills things slightly fast than my Valkyr with Scindo P and Tempo Royale. Yet he also has less survivability and a level 70+ Heavy Gunner or Bombard surprising you from behind is all it takes to take you down in T4. Also periodically you will run out of energy which is when things get tricky for Excal.

 

Long story short, he has good damage output but pays for it with lower survivability more dependent on player positioning and skill as well as constant energy use. He is balanced atm. Once he loses either the waves or his damage advantage Valkyr would again become the clearly better choice. With 1500 base armor (Steel Fiber + Armored Agility) + Rage and Life Strike she is almost impossible to kill as long you keep swinging your weapon. And for times that's not an option she has her "panic button".

 

 

Edit: And my Mirage with Tonkor beats both of them when it comes to killing speed by a huge margin! She can solo 60 minutes T4 survival as well and has a lot less trouble with life support since she kills things so much faster.

Edited July 19, 2015 by ----Fenrir----

[Ronyn]

I am open to seeing some alterations to Exalted blade but-

destroys the very concept of a melee-centric frame, and turns Excalibur into what the title of this thread suggests. 

-I wouldn't go that far. Even with exalted blade active there is still reason to use the radial blind/finisher combo for super tough enemies...

and slash dash, a melee power, is bolstered by exalted blade being on. 

 

As I keep pointing out-

Excalibur is still melee-centric, as in he is good on melee has advantages when fighting in melee there.

He just isn't a "melee frame" as some folks want/expect him to be.

DE really seems to intend him to be more well rounded than that.

Look at how he is described in his recently updated flavor text and video...https://warframe.com/game/warframes?id=Excalibur

They call him "the master of gun and blade", they talk about him having balanced powers for mobility, offense and defense, they say "no matter your style Excalibur is a formidable choice"....

which really requires that he not be slanted too hard toward one range of combat.

[motorfirebox]

Why would you need either of those when each wave one-shots every enemy it hits?

Because each wave only one-shots every enemy if you leave before wave 40.

[TheBrsrkr]

Excalibur was built to have only his ultimate on. I think that is very apparent. Whether you think it is fun or not is something different. It should have all the damage of the highest tiered weapons considering he is based on using his ability and NOT weapons.

It's drawbacks are that it has travel time and you need to aim it at each target. It is completely fine.

Once more, with feeling.....

All weapons, ALL of them, have drawbacks that are specific to them. They vary from one to the other, but their effects are unavoidable. Weapons have reload times,clip sizes, ammo reserves, fire rate and accuracy and recoil to take into account. Punch through is also an optional and limited stat. EB is unbalanced because it has all the benefits, with little drawbacks. Take the most OP weapon of the day, the Soma Prime. Massive clip, massive damage, massive reserve ammo. What it also has to justify those stats is a very long reload time, horrible ammo economy, noticeable recoil, a dependence on RNG to do decent damage, and a not too high status chance. There's also the limited punch through that ALL guns have, regardless of mod capabilities. Since the damage is mostly raw, it fails to enemy armor at a faster rate than other weapons (though it does last a good long while) and getting the ammo back after you use it is a lengthy process without the proper mods, items, which in turn cost damage, utility or resources.

Exalted Blade depends on energy for its use, which is always drained at a flat and rather low rate. The damage you deal is constant throughout, as is the "fire rate". You don't need anywhere near the precision a gun requires, because the waves are much larger than a bullet. There is no reload or other forced pause, and it lasts as long as your energy does, meaning a constant stream is possible for a hell of a long time, even without efficiency. It's range is large, and the infinite punch through means that enemy tactics are pointless, for the most part. There are mods that can increase its fire rate with no significant drawbacks. Having a 'slow travel time' and having yo "aim" the waves is not enough of a limit for all of the above.

[TheBrsrkr]

I am open to seeing some alterations to Exalted blade but-

-I wouldn't go that far. Even with exalted blade active there is still reason to use the radial blind/finisher combo for super tough enemies...

and slash dash, a melee power, is bolstered by exalted blade being on.

As I keep pointing out-

Excalibur is still melee-centric, as in he is good on melee has advantages when fighting in melee there.

He just isn't a "melee frame" as some folks want/expect him to be.

DE really seems to intend him to be more well rounded than that.

Look at how he is described in his recently updated flavor text and video...https://warframe.com/game/warframes?id=Excalibur

They call him "the master of gun and blade", they talk about him having balanced powers for mobility, offense and defense, they say "no matter your style Excalibur is a formidable choice"....

which really requires that he not be slanted too hard toward one range of combat.

I see. This just makes things a lot more difficult, though. If the waves have to have the insane range AND the punch through AND the slow energy drain, something else has to be taken off.

[GuyOnCrack]

Once more, with feeling.....

All weapons, ALL of them, have drawbacks that are specific to them. They vary from one to the other, but their effects are unavoidable. Weapons have reload times,clip sizes, ammo reserves, fire rate and accuracy and recoil to take into account. Punch through is also an optional and limited stat. EB is unbalanced because it has all the benefits, with little drawbacks. Take the most OP weapon of the day, the Soma Prime. Massive clip, massive damage, massive reserve ammo. What it also has to justify those stats is a very long reload time, horrible ammo economy, noticeable recoil, a dependence on RNG to do decent damage, and a not too high status chance. There's also the limited punch through that ALL guns have, regardless of mod capabilities. Since the damage is mostly raw, it fails to enemy armor at a faster rate than other weapons (though it does last a good long while) and getting the ammo back after you use it is a lengthy process without the proper mods, items, which in turn cost damage, utility or resources.

Exalted Blade depends on energy for its use, which is always drained at a flat and rather low rate. The damage you deal is constant throughout, as is the "fire rate". You don't need anywhere near the precision a gun requires, because the waves are much larger than a bullet. There is no reload or other forced pause, and it lasts as long as your energy does, meaning a constant stream is possible for a hell of a long time, even without efficiency. It's range is large, and the infinite punch through means that enemy tactics are pointless, for the most part. There are mods that can increase its fire rate with no significant drawbacks. Having a 'slow travel time' and having yo "aim" the waves is not enough of a limit for all of the above.

Dude, I've been going back and forth with you on this and I'll just say amuse you a little longer.

Again the Soma Prime has hitscan and unlimited range blah, blah, you know the jist. But the great thing about the Soma Prime is that you can use with any frame in the game. Banshee, Rhino, Trinity, Frost, Loki, etc. All these frames that have better survivalbility and better CC than Excalibur.

 

 Energy is taken up with RB, Slash Dash, Changeling. The range is 40m which is pretty long but no MLG no scopes from accross the map. Wait, enemies actually have tactics? So the running around blindly and shooting at you is a legitimate strategy? Yeah, don't think that's why your mad about the unlimited punch through. So all mods are corrupted mods now? Do we not have speed trigger, shotgun spazz, gunslinger, and lethal torrent which add fire rate without any down sides? Again, are you the balance police? Have you considered that fact that some of these things are in place because DE are actually competent in developing games?

[Ronyn]

I see. This just makes things a lot more difficult, though. If the waves have to have the insane range AND the punch through AND the slow energy drain, something else has to be taken off.

Difficult indeed my friend. I think you're right that we should explore ways to tone down the overall effectiveness of Exalted Blade.

 

Personally I think your idea of 15 meter range on the waves still fits the balance role as its neither too short nor too long.

I also sort of liked someones idea of having the waves come out only when channeling makes sense as that creates a change in energy cost.

And I even liked someones idea of having the waves come out based on certain combos as long as they are altered in a way to compensate for their lower fire rate under those circumstances.

I'm just not sure which way to go is better. But I'm certainly open to something. 

 

EB hits really friggin hard but I view that as a good and a bad. On one hand we finally have a power that scales as good as weapons.

On the other hand weapon scaling goes overboard sometimes. It's like a darned if you do, darned if you don't situation. lol

 

I don't really know what to do with it at this time, but as long as we keep in mind what Excalibur's role is really supposed to be according to DE (as opposed to what some of the community has decided) I think we may eventually sort it out.

[TheBrsrkr]

Dude, I've been going back and forth with you on this and I'll just say amuse you a little longer.

Again the Soma Prime has hitscan and unlimited range blah, blah, you know the jist. But the great thing about the Soma Prime is that you can use with any frame in the game. Banshee, Rhino, Trinity, Frost, Loki, etc. All these frames that have better survivalbility and better CC than Excalibur.

Energy is taken up with RB, Slash Dash, Changeling. The range is 40m which is pretty long but no MLG no scopes from accross the map. Wait, enemies actually have tactics? So the running around blindly and shooting at you is a legitimate strategy? Yeah, don't think that's why your mad about the unlimited punch through. So all mods are corrupted mods now? Do we not have speed trigger, shotgun spazz, gunslinger, and lethal torrent which add fire rate without any down sides? Again, are you the balance police? Have you considered that fact that some of these things are in place because DE are actually competent in developing games?

How often do you engage in combat more than 40m away? Really? No. I'd like to know. The Soma Prime isn't exactly a sniper rifle either, and you'll probably be burning a lot more ammo than if you had simply gone a little closer and shot. Yes, it has infinite range, and it is hits can. Does it go through walls and the floor and literally everything else? No. Any fire rate added to the Soma Prime comes at a loss of ammo efficiency, and a mod slot for even more damage.

So what if other frames use the Soma Prime? They're still going to have to reload, find ammo, shoot accurately, depend on RNSatan for damage, etc. Etc. Excalibur has all of the benefits with very little drawbacks. When you need to use RB, do you take off EB? You can either choose to continue EB or use RB. You can't choose whether to reload or not when your clip is empty. Enemies,AS YOU WELL KNOW, can do much more than that. Even if they did, would it make it okay to kill enemies through the walls, floor, ceiling, stairs and just about anything else, for 40m and full damage? Are you the unbalance police? Have you considered the fact that this is a feedback forum, and that thisgame is still in beta? Or that the devs are fallible humans that can make mistakes or underestimate the scope of something they created?