Exalted Blade Makes Excalibur A Living Fluctus And Deafeats The Ability Purpose

[GuyOnCrack]

I tried to stay away, I really did......

Nah.

@Guyoncrack

If the Soma prime had that amount of travel time AND infinite punch through AND 200 shots in a clip AND 800 in reserve, yes, it would be ridiculously OP. I still don't see your point.

Even using your examples, this is ridiculous. Dread will kill at most 5 people behind the door, if it hits anything at all. The Quanta has no goddamn ads and the beam procs once per second. Both of these things can also only kill things AT THE DOOR. Not through the walls. Not through the floor. Not behind giant blocks of cover. Exalted Blade provides all the benefits of the guns, with poor limitations.

Tell me why a sword based frame is not using his sword. No, really. I'd love to hear the reason you think 40m of infinite punch through on a wave that can be spammed that can do 50k (I don't care about your build) DPS is balanced on a melee-centric frame.

As I said before, MULTIPLE TIMES, guns have their own checks and balances. From your own example, Dread could kill at most 3people behind that door.

I don't use Excalibur on every mission because I like other frames better. Deal with it. You've simply run out of stupid arguments to make, and are spewing nonsense and blowing everything out of proportion to keep your post count running up.

Yeah no. I have killed over 7 people with one Dread shot. The Quanta with Shred alone can kill enemies behind doors.

 

And since you're pulling hairs here, so a Soma Prime with the same amount of damage, limit of 40m, infinite punch through, and travel time must be OP. Then a Soma Prime that is hitscan and unlimited range must be super OP and a Soma Prime with Metal Augur and Shred must be UBER OP.

 

Again, I don't even believe that you've played Excalibur or played him extensively. You keep pulling out these random numbers like 50k damage. and keep ignoring the fact that those waves travel super slow. Because if you have played him enough, you would see these limitations on the ability and see that they are balancing tools. And why do I think this ability is balanced? Because I actually play Excalibur and know what his limits are. I would never use Excalibur on defense, interception, or even excavation. I don't try to push past 60 minutes in a survival because the enemies will swarm me and I won't have enough time to deal with all of them. Or maybe because I don't want to grab my Loki and be invisible the whole game and deal more dps at range with my Super Soma Prime. Or spam Snowglobe on Frost over and over again. Maybe I like that fact that I can actually use something other than the top tier weapons to actually survive.

 

And you keep saying guns have their checks and balances but you keep ignoring the limits on EB to fit your argument. Bring up the fact that the waves have travel time, "You can spam them so that isn't a valid point." The Soma uses a lot of ammo, "You can just pick more up." The Dread can only kill up to three people through a door, "Just fire more." You state the obvious without thinking about the actual implication of the issue. Sure you can pick more ammo but ammo is RNG is that's not reliable or the fact that the Dread uses the sniper ammo pool and lacks reliable replenishment. And the waves can be and have been dodged many a times. Just firing more at the same area isn't reliable at all and nobody would actually do it.

 

Do I even have to argue the last point? Just because I like other frames better? Or maybe because other frames do the job better? Have you notice that Excalibur has no really defensive ability? His radial blind is more offensive than defensive and it's not even that reliable as a defensive skill. When Nyx had her recastable Chaos, she was OP, because it was pointless to take any other frame to a mission because Nyx could do it better, no matter what. Like I said, Excalibur can't defend S#&$ to save his life. He is a damage dealer and does that well. I would rather take my Frost or Vauban than Excalibur to a defensive type mission.

[Slaviar]

We've been over this before. Several times. Miasma being OP does not make EB less OP. ALL frames and ALL abilities should be changed on their OWN merits and shortcomings. Not because X has more range than Y, because X has crappy range. Not because Y does so much more damage than X, but because X does too little damage. Saying it's not OP because it's not the MOST OP is a stupid argument.

You're losing entire point. And point is- if one frame is weak at his main area- in Excalibur main area is damage dealing. Nerf him and he won't be used- because he'll be too weak. 

Not to mention (again) EB's NOT op. You arguments are weak. They all go down to "it's op because it has long range, high damage, efficient and unlimited punchtrough". It's what making it good. Low damage=nobody cares because too weak. Low eff=nobody cares because hard as hell to maintain. Has low punchtrough=weak because Miasma. Short range=nobody uses it because at high lvl content you go down instantly when surrounded- and that's what happens if you get in melee range.

May I ask why you want everything nerfed so badly? HOW does EB being strong brakes game? How it requiring effort from players is bad?

[TheBrsrkr]

Yeah no. I have killed over 7 people with one Dread shot. The Quanta with Shred alone can kill enemies behind doors.

And since you're pulling hairs here, so a Soma Prime with the same amount of damage, limit of 40m, infinite punch through, and travel time must be OP. Then a Soma Prime that is hitscan and unlimited range must be super OP and a Soma Prime with Metal Augur and Shred must be UBER OP.

Again, I don't even believe that you've played Excalibur or played him extensively. You keep pulling out these random numbers like 50k damage. and keep ignoring the fact that those waves travel super slow. Because if you have played him enough, you would see these limitations on the ability and see that they are balancing tools. And why do I think this ability is balanced? Because I actually play Excalibur and know what his limits are. I would never use Excalibur on defense, interception, or even excavation. I don't try to push past 60 minutes in a survival because the enemies will swarm me and I won't have enough time to deal with all of them. Or maybe because I don't want to grab my Loki and be invisible the whole game and deal more dps at range with my Super Soma Prime. Or spam Snowglobe on Frost over and over again. Maybe I like that fact that I can actually use something other than the top tier weapons to actually survive.

And you keep saying guns have their checks and balances but you keep ignoring the limits on EB to fit your argument. Bring up the fact that the waves have travel time, "You can spam them so that isn't a valid point." The Soma uses a lot of ammo, "You can just pick more up." The Dread can only kill up to three people through a door, "Just fire more." You state the obvious without thinking about the actual implication of the issue. Sure you can pick more ammo but ammo is RNG is that's not reliable or the fact that the Dread uses the sniper ammo pool and lacks reliable replenishment. And the waves can be and have been dodged many a times. Just firing more at the same area isn't reliable at all and nobody would actually do it.

Do I even have to argue the last point? Just because I like other frames better? Or maybe because other frames do the job better? Have you notice that Excalibur has no really defensive ability? His radial blind is more offensive than defensive and it's not even that reliable as a defensive skill. When Nyx had her recastable Chaos, she was OP, because it was pointless to take any other frame to a mission because Nyx could do it better, no matter what. Like I said, Excalibur can't defend S#&$ to save his life. He is a damage dealer and does that well. I would rather take my Frost or Vauban than Excalibur to a defensive type mission.

Your Soma Prime comparison makes no sense. 3 or 4m of punch through , the numbers I SUGGESTED FOR EB, is not a game breaking amount. Even if you put both mods on, it cuts severely into your damage as a critical build requires a lot of mods, meaning it drops off earlier and does less damage anyway.

You can believe what you want about me, and yes, the wave's travel time is a limiting factor. The problem is that it simply isn't enough, for reasons stated before. 50k is what I get when I play Excalibur, so that's the number I used. Who cares? 50k or no, there are simply not enough checks to EB. Saying that he can't go beyond 60 minutes, which is far beyond the balancing scope of the ability, is a pointless argument, because it is BEYOND the balancing point. I think this is the third time I said that.

Yes, you can pick up ammo for the Soma Prime, but how much can you pick up, compared with how much you use? 20, of a clip of 200. You have to pick up 10 of them to refill one clip. If you want to keep up the ammo efficiency, you can sacrifice some damage for ammo mutation, sacrifice some utility for the ammo aura, or reload very often, which means 3 seconds of downtime every time you need to. And, as always, these effects can be mitigated by skilled play. The Dread takes a full second to fire if you want punch through. To shorten that time, you sacrifice damage. For it to even kill more than one enemy, they have to be in a straight line. Missing is severely punished, and having to charge, aim and fire at each enemy back to back takes time, time you might not have when most of them are heavies. EB has it all. The high damage, the punch through, the wide waves (certainly wider than a bullet). No reloads. No charge time. No precise aim. Do you see now?

Yes, I use other frames because I like them. Rhino can do all variations of play. So can Frost. So can Chroma. I could pick what the meta demands, or I could pick what I'm good with, and what I have fun with. I like Excalibur, but I like Frost more, and I like Rhino more than Frost. So what?

[GuyOnCrack]

Your Soma Prime comparison makes no sense. 3 or 4m of punch through , the numbers I SUGGESTED FOR EB, is not a game breaking amount. Even if you put both mods on, it cuts severely into your damage as a critical build requires a lot of mods, meaning it drops off earlier and does less damage anyway.

You can believe what you want about me, and yes, the wave's travel time is a limiting factor. The problem is that it simply isn't enough, for reasons stated before. 50k is what I get when I play Excalibur, so that's the number I used. Who cares? 50k or no, there are simply not enough checks to EB. Saying that he can't go beyond 60 minutes, which is far beyond the balancing scope of the ability, is a pointless argument, because it is BEYOND the balancing point. I think this is the third time I said that.

Yes, you can pick up ammo for the Soma Prime, but how much can you pick up, compared with how much you use? 20, of a clip of 200. You have to pick up 10 of them to refill one clip. If you want to keep up the ammo efficiency, you can sacrifice some damage for ammo mutation, sacrifice some utility for the ammo aura, or reload very often, which means 3 seconds of downtime every time you need to. And, as always, these effects can be mitigated by skilled play. The Dread takes a full second to fire if you want punch through. To shorten that time, you sacrifice damage. For it to even kill more than one enemy, they have to be in a straight line. Missing is severely punished, and having to charge, aim and fire at each enemy back to back takes time, time you might not have when most of them are heavies. EB has it all. The high damage, the punch through, the wide waves (certainly wider than a bullet). No reloads. No charge time. No precise aim. Do you see now?

Yes, I use other frames because I like them. Rhino can do all variations of play. So can Frost. So can Chroma. I could pick what the meta demands, or I could pick what I'm good with, and what I have fun with. I like Excalibur, but I like Frost more, and I like Rhino more than Frost. So what?

Yeah, but the Soma fires way faster and can put more DPS down range. Not to mention the fact is the waves are to large to have a limited amount of punch through. Bullets are precise enough to a limited punch through but the wave is too large. Say the corner of your wave hits a wall, F*** you the whole wave disappears. And I could probably empty half my clip down at an enemy before a single wave hits them.

 

So should we also talk about the limited amounts of waves. They don't fire faster than any gun in this game. And just asking, who set the balancing point? You? The community? DE? Where is it stated that below 60 minutes is the balancing point, and if it is, why even bother having something over 60. I mean it would be impossible seeing as the enemies scale infinitely so the mission should just end after 1 hour and 20 minutes.

 

Yes I stated that about the Dread and Soma as a point to show that many issues are actually not issues. EB doesn't have it all, talk to me when the waves are instantaneous, don't require aiming, and can shoot them off faster than a Braton. Most guns can out DPS EB(just by itself) without breaking a sweat.

 

I'm not talking about you personally. I'm not inquiring about your taste. This is an objective question. Does Frost have better defensive abilities than Excalibur? Does Nyx have better CC than Excalibur? Does the community only play Excalibur or is an Excalibur required to reach end game content and nobody else has the ability?

[Buzkyl]

 EB doesn't have it all, talk to me when the waves are instantaneous, don't require aiming, and can shoot them off faster than a Braton. Most guns can out DPS EB(just by itself) without breaking a sweat.

 

 

But they are

 

1.Easily spammable

2.Have massive range

3. Heavy amounts of punchtrhough

4.Tied to melee firerate which can be increased via beserker (which can be activated via radial blind)

5.Affected by melee combo multiplier and stealth crits.

 

 

Too look at things such as paper DPS is looking at it in a vaccuum. EB is just as strong or even stronger than most primary weapons when it's being used properly.

 

There's no need to make them instantaneous as they travel at a decent pace.They require little aim as spamming them in the general direction works fairly well.

 

 

I have no issue with EB being knocked down a peg interms off damage as long as the waves gain more support features such as staggering or the ability to proc status.

 

 

 

You're losing entire point. And point is- if one frame is weak at his main area- in Excalibur main area is damage dealing. Nerf him and he won't be used- because he'll be too weak. 

Not to mention (again) EB's NOT op. You arguments are weak. They all go down to "it's op because it has long range, high damage, efficient and unlimited punchtrough". It's what making it good. Low damage=nobody cares because too weak. Low eff=nobody cares because hard as hell to maintain. Has low punchtrough=weak because Miasma. Short range=nobody uses it because at high lvl content you go down instantly when surrounded- and that's what happens if you get in melee range.

May I ask why you want everything nerfed so badly? HOW does EB being strong brakes game? How it requiring effort from players is bad?

 

 

Except there are things such as downsides which should be part of balancing. Now to your points

 

Low damage-Damage doesn't scale, whether at 10 or 100 it will hit a wall. There are plenty of weak damage skills that make up in utility.

Low efficiency-Efficiency mods help that, greatly.

Low punch through-Using the P42W Miasma doesn't help your point, because we should be making less in mindless map nukes.

Short range-Very much a true point, however excalibur is a melee frame, range should be a bonus and not manditory as you imply.  That and surrounded he has radial blind.

 

Excalibur from the start is a all rounded melee theme frame, DPS isn't his speciality. He is meant to fit into any playstyle which would include both support and DPS.

 

"Strong" is a buzzword. There are many "strong" skills which are perfectly balance and do not break the game. No one is asking for the skill to be weak, but for certain aspects of it to be altered.

 

Damage skills on a whole need to be adressedm EB might seem to scale well because it's fall off is faar beyond other skills because it just does loads of damage

Edited July 15, 2015 by Buzkyl

[TheBrsrkr]

Yeah, but the Soma fires way faster and can put more DPS down range. Not to mention the fact is the waves are to large to have a limited amount of punch through. Bullets are precise enough to a limited punch through but the wave is too large. Say the corner of your wave hits a wall, F*** you the whole wave disappears. And I could probably empty half my clip down at an enemy before a single wave hits them.

So should we also talk about the limited amounts of waves. They don't fire faster than any gun in this game. And just asking, who set the balancing point? You? The community? DE? Where is it stated that below 60 minutes is the balancing point, and if it is, why even bother having something over 60. I mean it would be impossible seeing as the enemies scale infinitely so the mission should just end after 1 hour and 20 minutes.

Yes I stated that about the Dread and Soma as a point to show that many issues are actually not issues. EB doesn't have it all, talk to me when the waves are instantaneous, don't require aiming, and can shoot them off faster than a Braton. Most guns can out DPS EB(just by itself) without breaking a sweat.

I'm not talking about you personally. I'm not inquiring about your taste. This is an objective question. Does Frost have better defensive abilities than Excalibur? Does Nyx have better CC than Excalibur? Does the community only play Excalibur or is an Excalibur required to reach end game content and nobody else has the ability?

Yes, and the Soma also has horrible ammo efficiency. And limited punch through. If you mod for more punch through, you lose damage. Same with ammo efficiency. Quite a lot of things have to be aligned for the Soma to do that damage, and it doesn't even do it consistently.

I don't think DE is dumb enough to just hurr durr nerf the waves. They will probably have their drop removed as a result, and maybe more waves will be horizontal. We'll leave it up to them.

They have all the damage of bows at twice the fire rate and none of the skill requirements. I'd say that's plenty more than enough.

The game was and still is (though we're moving up) balanced around lvl 40-45 enemies. You can tell by the way that everything is still viable around that point. Enemies do a crap load of damage, but it's not instakill. Frame damage abilities won't instakill everything, but still have relevant damage. CC is CC, and is always relevant. It's hard, but fair. After this point, usually around the 30 minute mark in a T4S, something changes, and enemies have a sudden jump in numbers. This suggests that everything beyond this point is meant to push the limits of your load out. We could call the point directly before this the balancing point.

But I did show how they were actual issues. Multiple times. Are we even on the same page?

It's an objective question, but one without a point. Yes, Frost is more defensive than Excalibur. That's because Frost is a mainly defensive frame. Nyx has better CC, because her powers are literally based around controlling the crowd. Excalibur, however, was touted to be a swordsman. Do you think EB's waves are conducive to this? Anyway, remember what I said about judging frames on merits and shortcomings, not comparisons? Him? No?

[GuyOnCrack]

But they are

 

1.Easily spammable

2.Have massive range

3. Heavy amounts of punchtrhough

4.Tied to melee firerate which can be increased via beserker (which can be activated via radial blind)

5.Affected by melee combo multiplier and stealth crits.

 

 

Too look at things such as paper DPS is looking at it in a vaccuum. EB is just as strong or even stronger than most primary weapons when it's being used properly.

 

There's no need to make them instantaneous as they travel at a decent pace.They require little aim as spamming them in the general direction works fairly well.

 

 

I have no issue with EB being knocked down a peg interms off damage as long as the waves gain more support features such as staggering or the ability to proc status.

 

 

 

 

 

Except there are things such as downsides which should be part of balancing. Now to your points

 

Low damage-Damage doesn't scale, whether at 10 or 100 it will hit a wall. There are plenty of weak damage skills that make up in utility.

Low efficiency-Efficiency mods help that, greatly.

Low punch through-Using the P42W Miasma doesn't help your point, because we should be making less in mindless map nukes.

Short range-Very much a true point, however excalibur is a melee frame, range should be a bonus and not manditory as you imply.  That and surrounded he has radial blind.

 

Excalibur from the start is a all rounded melee theme frame, DPS isn't his speciality. He is meant to fit into any playstyle which would include both support and DPS.

 

"Strong" is a buzzword. There are many "strong" skills which are perfectly balance and do not break the game. No one is asking for the skill to be weak, but for certain aspects of it to be altered.

 

Damage skills on a whole need to be adressedm EB might seem to scale well because it's fall off is faar beyond other skills because it just does loads of damage

BULLETS ARE OP

1. SPAMMABLE

2. HAS UNLIMITED RANGE

3.CAN ADD PUNCHTHROUGH

4.YOU CAN INCREASE THE FIRE RATE WITHOUT GETTING CRITS

5. CAN BE INCREASED BY ABILITIES

 

Yeah your point can be true, if EB is used in the hands of a skilled player, then it can be better than some primaries. So why bother rewarding skill plays. We'll just nerf it so that even if a person uses EB effectively they will do sub par damage to a primary weapon that any other frame can use or even in some cases, make it even better.

 

Again, you guys always make this argument about the speed not mattering because of spamming but fail to see that spamming in one direction is a failing to use EB effectively. Yeah you can probably kill level 35 enemies by just spamming your blades up and down and all around but later on that tactic is gonna fail hard. So is aiming your blades in one direction because the waves do not grow in size and enemies can move. Because of the travel time, it take time to adjust your waves.

 

My problem with most of these nerf ideas are the lack of balancing. EB is far from OP. It's nothing like recastable Chaos. That being said, we need to buff areas to make others weaker to promote a certain type of gamestyle. Just straight up nerfing the waves isn't gonna make people go "Oh maybe I should master Excalibur." They'll just be like, "It's easier to use my gun and disregard EB because it forces me to use a sub par melee weapon with a short wave range and it drains my energy. I'd rather spend it on RB." The same problem happened with shotguns but we failed to learn from that.

 

I don't understand what you are exactly saying with Low Damage, Efficiency, Punch Through.

 

 And why are you placing Excalibur into this self made category? What in his kit would lead you to think that he is an jack of all trade?

 

Most "strong" skills are CC skills because damage skills are far from being OP. In fact, they are UP as hell. And this is the first break through in making damage abilities relevant.

[izzatuw]

Yes I stated that about the Dread and Soma as a point to show that many issues are actually not issues. EB doesn't have it all, talk to me when the waves are instantaneous, don't require aiming, and can shoot them off faster than a Braton. Most guns can out DPS EB(just by itself) without breaking a sweat.

1. Have you ever tried a berserker build for EB? You can slash 3-5 times in 3 seconds. It doesn't require aiming in its current state, you slash horizontal energy waves which makes the aiming part unrequired. The waves aren't instantaneous but they are pretty fast when you can slash 3-5 of them in a few seconds. How's your play style? Do you play with the enemies always being 30+ meters away from you? Because when I slash away the waves eventually catch the enemy.

[izzatuw]

BULLETS ARE OP

1. SPAMMABLE

2. HAS UNLIMITED RANGE

3.CAN ADD PUNCHTHROUGH

4.YOU CAN INCREASE THE FIRE RATE WITHOUT GETTING CRITS

5. CAN BE INCREASED BY ABILITIES

Yeah your point can be true, if EB is used in the hands of a skilled player, then it can be better than some primaries. So why bother rewarding skill plays. We'll just nerf it so that even if a person uses EB effectively they will do sub par damage to a primary weapon that any other frame can use or even in some cases, make it even better.

Again, you guys always make this argument about the speed not mattering because of spamming but fail to see that spamming in one direction is a failing to use EB effectively. Yeah you can probably kill level 35 enemies by just spamming your blades up and down and all around but later on that tactic is gonna fail hard. So is aiming your blades in one direction because the waves do not grow in size and enemies can move. Because of the travel time, it take time to adjust your waves.

My problem with most of these nerf ideas are the lack of balancing. EB is far from OP. It's nothing like recastable Chaos. That being said, we need to buff areas to make others weaker to promote a certain type of gamestyle. Just straight up nerfing the waves isn't gonna make people go "Oh maybe I should master Excalibur." They'll just be like, "It's easier to use my gun and disregard EB because it forces me to use a sub par melee weapon with a short wave range and it drains my energy. I'd rather spend it on RB." The same problem happened with shotguns but we failed to learn from that.

I don't understand what you are exactly saying with Low Damage, Efficiency, Punch Through.

And why are you placing Excalibur into this self made category? What in his kit would lead you to think that he is an jack of all trade?

Most "strong" skills are CC skills because damage skills are far from being OP. In fact, they are UP as hell. And this is the first break through in making damage abilities relevant.

Wow you brought Chaos into the argument which is nowhere near the same as EB. EB is known as a damage dealing based ability, Chaos is just pure CC you can't even bring Chaos/RD/Snowglobe into this argument since their purposes are far too different. When people mean OP they mean in their respective categories, not bringing other categories in it. Like 20 types of AR's but one is far superior than the rest, 50% crit chance, 10 crit multiplier, 10 fire rate and 70% status. While the one closest to getting to that is 30% crit, 10% status chance, 5 crit multiplier and 3 fire rate.

[GuyOnCrack]

Wow you brought Chaos into the argument which is nowhere near the same as EB. EB is known as a damage dealing based ability, Chaos is just pure CC you can't even bring Chaos/RD/Snowglobe into this argument since their purposes are far too different. When people mean OP they mean in their respective categories, not bringing other categories in it. Like 20 types of AR's but one is far superior than the rest, 50% crit chance, 10 crit multiplier, 10 fire rate and 70% status. While the one closest to getting to that is 30% crit, 10% status chance, 5 crit multiplier and 3 fire rate.

Yes I can bring Chaos into this, because that was the definition of a OP skill when it had recast. You didn't need a weapon or ammo or even melee. You could just cast Chaos, watch the enemies die, recast, rinse and repeat. It was so strong that you didn't need anyone else. Defense, Nyx. Survival, Nyx. Literally any gametype you could just take Nyx and win. The stronger the enemies, faster they murdered each other. You didn't need to shoot or anything because when it had recast, you could just recast it even when enemies were still under the effect of Chaos.

That is the definition of OP. Something that is so strong that other weapons or frames are irrelevant. But with Excalibur I wouldn't take him to a defense ever. He doesn't have enough to protect the pod or others. He can kill but not fast enough like Mesa or Saryn.

 

1. Have you ever tried a berserker build for EB? You can slash 3-5 times in 3 seconds. It doesn't require aiming in its current state, you slash horizontal energy waves which makes the aiming part unrequired. The waves aren't instantaneous but they are pretty fast when you can slash 3-5 of them in a few seconds. How's your play style? Do you play with the enemies always being 30+ meters away from you? Because when I slash away the waves eventually catch the enemy.

Yes I have, along with Fury. Too bad that two mod slots taken up by attack speed only for what 3-5 waves every 3 seconds? Nice in 3 seconds I could be shot down by a heavy gunner in 40 minute survival. Or shoot down range 45 shots from my Soma. Spamming waves doesn't make the waves go faster, it just makes the illusion of faster waves because on your 5 wave leaving your blade the first one might have made contact if the enemy decided not to move or you have some crazy ESP. And no I play with the enemies in my face because at 60 minutes in a T2, not even a T4, the enemies get tickled by my waves. Without finishers, radial blind, or the melee counter, those waves are pretty weak late game. Which if we nerfed it, they would get even weaker against late game.

[izzatuw]

Yes I can bring Chaos into this, because that was the definition of a OP skill when it had recast. You didn't need a weapon or ammo or even melee. You could just cast Chaos, watch the enemies die, recast, rinse and repeat. It was so strong that you didn't need anyone else. Defense, Nyx. Survival, Nyx. Literally any gametype you could just take Nyx and win. The stronger the enemies, faster they murdered each other. You didn't need to shoot or anything because when it had recast, you could just recast it even when enemies were still under the effect of Chaos.

That is the definition of OP. Something that is so strong that other weapons or frames are irrelevant. But with Excalibur I wouldn't take him to a defense ever. He doesn't have enough to protect the pod or others. He can kill but not fast enough like Mesa or Saryn.

Yes I have, along with Fury. Too bad that two mod slots taken up by attack speed only for what 3-5 waves every 3 seconds? Nice in 3 seconds I could be shot down by a heavy gunner in 40 minute survival. Or shoot down range 45 shots from my Soma. Spamming waves doesn't make the waves go faster, it just makes the illusion of faster waves because on your 5 wave leaving your blade the first one might have made contact if the enemy decided not to move or you have some crazy ESP. And no I play with the enemies in my face because at 60 minutes in a T2, not even a T4, the enemies get tickled by my waves. Without finishers, radial blind, or the melee counter, those waves are pretty weak late game. Which if we nerfed it, they would get even weaker against late game.

Your Chaos must be really really strong if you rely on it for kills.... Seriously no one relies on Chaos to kill each other, maybe 2-3 enemies at most but never a dozen. The heavy gunner can't kill you if you're blocking while attacking it. Edited July 15, 2015 by izzatuw

[Buzkyl]

BULLETS ARE OP

1. SPAMMABLE

2. HAS UNLIMITED RANGE

3.CAN ADD PUNCHTHROUGH

4.YOU CAN INCREASE THE FIRE RATE WITHOUT GETTING CRITS

5. CAN BE INCREASED BY ABILITIES

 

Yeah your point can be true, if EB is used in the hands of a skilled player, then it can be better than some primaries. So why bother rewarding skill plays. We'll just nerf it so that even if a person uses EB effectively they will do sub par damage to a primary weapon that any other frame can use or even in some cases, make it even better.

 

Again, you guys always make this argument about the speed not mattering because of spamming but fail to see that spamming in one direction is a failing to use EB effectively. Yeah you can probably kill level 35 enemies by just spamming your blades up and down and all around but later on that tactic is gonna fail hard. So is aiming your blades in one direction because the waves do not grow in size and enemies can move. Because of the travel time, it take time to adjust your waves.

 

My problem with most of these nerf ideas are the lack of balancing. EB is far from OP. It's nothing like recastable Chaos. That being said, we need to buff areas to make others weaker to promote a certain type of gamestyle. Just straight up nerfing the waves isn't gonna make people go "Oh maybe I should master Excalibur." They'll just be like, "It's easier to use my gun and disregard EB because it forces me to use a sub par melee weapon with a short wave range and it drains my energy. I'd rather spend it on RB." The same problem happened with shotguns but we failed to learn from that.

 

I don't understand what you are exactly saying with Low Damage, Efficiency, Punch Through.

 

 And why are you placing Excalibur into this self made category? What in his kit would lead you to think that he is an jack of all trade?

 

Most "strong" skills are CC skills because damage skills are far from being OP. In fact, they are UP as hell. And this is the first break through in making damage abilities relevant.

That's a horrible strawman argument and you know it, i'm not even going to bother reply to that.

 

Except the question is, how do you reward skill play? Rewarding skill play doesn't always mean massive numbers. The playerbase has too much of a fascination with high damage. If you're going to decrease the damage of the waves you can add alot more depth into them to account for the reduced damage such as allowing waves to score head-shots (if they don't already and if they do, it's highly inconsistent), proc status or even stagger. I've seen other of ideas such as EB finishers send an explosion of waves around killed target.

 

There's no real metric to determine to determine player skill using EB in the first place. You say spamming blade waves isn't using it effectively, but that's an opinion. While i agree, that doesn't make it any more of an opinion. While i perfer to use EB intandem with SD and blind i've seen other Excaliburs spam EB waves with wide range blinds and perform just as well. And also using the blade travel time would be a fair point if the waves weren't so easy to create a few slashes in a general direction will send plenty of waves which i'm certain one will hit it's mark.

 

 

First, Chaos isn't recastable, second even if it was at high levels it's just going to be a distraction as the enemies are far takier than thier damage output. Secondly, i'm against a straight nerf to SB, reducing it's DPS isn't going to make it a better skill overall. I have no issue with a damage decrease on the waves as long as they gain a more utility function which infact suits melee. Direct hits from the sword should feel powerful, the issue lies with how powerful the waves are.

 

It's outright stated he's meant to fit different playstyles. While he is melee themed his abilities are tailored for varied use. SD for melee combat as well as mobility, RB is CC, RJ is damage with minor CC and EB is his survival/DPS skill. It's obvious from the start he's a jack of all trades frame.

 

If you're looking for a damage frame, that would be Ash. Not excalibur.

 

 

Balancing towards endless defense will get you nowhere. Especially seeing how Armour and health scaling works, which renders near most damage frames useless at high levels.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Buzkyl

[Naftal]

I can see default waves being much shorter-range, with combo waves being longer, but removing the default waves completely would just make Excal a (much, much) weaker Valkyr.

Except the regular melee attacks in EB are already much, much stronger than Valkyr's Hysteria attacks combined with much better animations.

[xNegikunx]

As a person who is absolutely in love with Excalibur's rework and his new Exalted Blade, I am inclined to agree.  It might as well be Exalted Gun at this point.

[GuyOnCrack]

That's a horrible strawman argument and you know it, i'm not even going to bother reply to that.

 

Except the question is, how do you reward skill play? Rewarding skill play doesn't always mean massive numbers. The playerbase has too much of a fascination with high damage. If you're going to decrease the damage of the waves you can add alot more depth into them to account for the reduced damage such as allowing waves to score head-shots (if they don't already and if they do, it's highly inconsistent), proc status or even stagger. I've seen other of ideas such as EB finishers send an explosion of waves around killed target.

 

There's no real metric to determine to determine player skill using EB in the first place. You say spamming blade waves isn't using it effectively, but that's an opinion. While i agree, that doesn't make it any more of an opinion. While i perfer to use EB intandem with SD and blind i've seen other Excaliburs spam EB waves with wide range blinds and perform just as well. And also using the blade travel time would be a fair point if the waves weren't so easy to create a few slashes in a general direction will send plenty of waves which i'm certain one will hit it's mark.

 

 

First, Chaos isn't recastable, second even if it was at high levels it's just going to be a distraction as the enemies are far takier than thier damage output. Secondly, i'm against a straight nerf to SB, reducing it's DPS isn't going to make it a better skill overall. I have no issue with a damage decrease on the waves as long as they gain a more utility function which infact suits melee. Direct hits from the sword should feel powerful, the issue lies with how powerful the waves are.

 

It's outright stated he's meant to fit different playstyles. While he is melee themed his abilities are tailored for varied use. SD for melee combat as well as mobility, RB is CC, RJ is damage with minor CC and EB is his survival/DPS skill. It's obvious from the start he's a jack of all trades frame.

 

If you're looking for a damage frame, that would be Ash. Not excalibur.

 

 

Balancing towards endless defense will get you nowhere. Especially seeing how Armour and health scaling works, which renders near most damage frames useless at high levels.

Ok, the first statement isn't a straw man. It an sarcastic remark that was distastefully made. Trust me, I know it sounds dumb but it's to show that weapons especially rifles can do what EB does but with hit scan and farther ranges.

 

So what other way is there to reward skillful play? The main purpose is to kill an enemy in Warframe. Does it matter how the enemy dies? Massive numbers is a fine way to reward skillful play.

 

EB spam is possible, just like spamming the left mouse button on your primary. Or spamming Saryn. Or any type of spam. Most of the time the spamming isn't as effective and in my play time, it really isn't too effective.

 

Oh boy, I am not talking about Chaos now. Chaos before the nerf was literally the destroyer of worlds. You could spam the S#&$ out of it and the enemies would straight up murder each other. You didn't even need a weapon, that's how broken it was. This was when all the abilities were still in a box with your health and shields. And that is a great example of true OP in this game. Literally, you didn't need anything else other than Chaos. And yes I think that the waves could be reworked to promote better melee but this isn't the way to go about it.

 

Just like the Dark Sword have the description "High damage charge attack"? Most of the statements are old and need to reworked. And yet how you describe Excalibur all sounds like damage. SD melee and mobility. RB is CC but also is a damage increase with stealth multipliers and finishers, RJ is damage and small stun, EB damage and small CC with mini blind. Not too jack of all trade. Most of his skills work on making his melee damage more, even the augments cater towards more damage with melee.

 

Seriously, who decides on what frame is what? Did DE come out and straight up say, Excalibur is not a damage frame, he's a starter jack of all trade frame? And there can be more than one damage frame, it's called variety.

 

And that's why most damage frames are in the gutter compared to the CC frames. Literally, there is no point for me to take my Ember other than having fun. Trinity has energy restore, health gain, and damage reduction. Why would I waste my energy on abilities that can't do jack S#&$ when I can use my gun? I would rather get my Trinity and have abilities that are worth while. Because they have the same DPS with the same gun. Even Rhino has better DPS because of his roar. So why would I take my damage frames when I can do better with a CC frame?

[RealPandemonium]

u can`t count trin as killer can you??

 Trinity can literally kill any enemy, regardless of level, armor, or health type, in seconds with a min duration WoL+EV combo.  

[CryvernX]

lets nerf nova loki tinity and mesa first, they are waaay more unbalanced

[motorfirebox]

Except the regular melee attacks in EB are already much, much stronger than Valkyr's Hysteria attacks combined with much better animations.

And Excal is vulnerable to AOE and attacks from behind, where Valkyr is not. Nullifier bubbles aside, Valkyr can take as long as she needs to take to kill anything she's up against—she's invulnerable. Excal doesn't have that luxury. He makes up for it by extending the range of his melee attacks. As I've said, I'd be fine with reducing that range significantly, but getting rid of it for all but certain combos would nerf him too badly to be playable against enemies past level 40 or so.

[RealZeroIce]

People need to stop pretending there are roles in this game.  Everyone is a DPS, and everyone has cheese to exploit.  This game doesn't have roles; it has flavors.  People forget this because all they care about is power-grinding, ignoring actual gameplay.  

Sorry but I can not ignore this comment. Do we even play the same game? Have you ever done a Draco with a speed Nova, without frames that is required to fill the essential ROLES in completing even one round? Without Trinity that fits the role of a healer,energy and damage reduction, a Frost to keep super squishy Nova protected, a Saryn to quickly dispatch super speed enemies? (These are all rhetorical questions btw). 

 

Also, if anyone says "but using negative Nova on a map other than infested is stupid" .... you might think so, but some of us actually enjoy a challenge and like to to push our frames and ourselves to the limits. 

[RealPandemonium]

Sorry but I can not ignore this comment. Do we even play the same game? Have you ever done a Draco with a speed Nova, without frames that is required to fill the essential ROLES in completing even one round? Without Trinity that fits the role of a healer,energy and damage reduction, a Frost to keep super squishy Nova protected, a Saryn to quickly dispatch super speed enemies? (These are all rhetorical questions btw). 

 

Also, if anyone says "but using negative Nova on a map other than infested is stupid" .... you might think so, but some of us actually enjoy a challenge and like to to push our frames and ourselves to the limits. 

Not sure if sarcasm.

[Naftal]

And Excal is vulnerable to AOE and attacks from behind, where Valkyr is not. Nullifier bubbles aside, Valkyr can take as long as she needs to take to kill anything she's up against—she's invulnerable. Excal doesn't have that luxury. He makes up for it by extending the range of his melee attacks. As I've said, I'd be fine with reducing that range significantly, but getting rid of it for all but certain combos would nerf him too badly to be playable against enemies past level 40 or so.

I'm just going to disagree with this completely. Excal would work fine against lvl100+ enemies even if every attack didn't create a wave.

 

The invulnerability on Hysteria is something that shouldn't even exist. Currently it works as a downside in terms of balancing since they won't give it good stats otherwise because of the invulnerability and apparently not good animations either. It isn't even really needed, at least I'm practically invulnerable with Valkyr anyway.

[RealZeroIce]

Not sure if sarcasm.

Take it anyway you like, my post is to show that there's frames that fit in certain ROLES and are not just "flavours" as you exclaimed previously

Edited July 15, 2015 by RealZeroIce

[motorfirebox]

I'm just going to disagree with this completely. Excal would work fine against lvl100+ enemies even if every attack didn't create a wave.

 

The invulnerability on Hysteria is something that shouldn't even exist. Currently it works as a downside in terms of balancing since they won't give it good stats otherwise because of the invulnerability and apparently not good animations either. It isn't even really needed, at least I'm practically invulnerable with Valkyr anyway.

Even if he could, what's the point of the ability if you remove the waves? Frontal parry and a free, tiny radial blind isn't worth the energy drain. You'd be better off using the full radial blind and doing finishers. At that point, if you're doing fine against level 100 enemies, it's not because of his 4, it's because you're good with the melee system.

Edited July 15, 2015 by motorfirebox

[Naftal]

Even if he could, what's the point of the ability if you remove the waves? Frontal parry and a free, tiny radial blind isn't worth the energy drain. You'd be better off using the full radial blind and doing finishers. At that point, if you're doing fine against level 100 enemies, it's not because of his 4, it's because you're good with the melee system.

I haven't suggested removing waves altogether, just reduce them so not every attack creates one. Make them part of combos. This makes excal gameplay deeper and more skill-based and interactive when you can't just play the same way you would with a boltor prime and have to actually melee on a melee frame.

 

Going against lvl100 enemies needs certain amount of damage that most melees don't have without outside buffs. EB does have more than enough damage to kill even much higher than lvl100s.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Naftal

[motorfirebox]

Combos suck. If you put waves only in combos, you might as well remove them altogether unless there's one of those "hold block while spamming melee" combos in there. A few waves, once in a while, are not enough to justify even the tiny energy cost that Exalted Blade has when the name of the game is 20+ high-level enemies at a time.

 

I would be fine with reducing the waves to 8-12m, or even 5-6m, rather than the 40m they currently enjoy. That, to me, would be a reasonable way to make Excal more of a close-in frame while still keeping him viable.