Damn You Stunlock Man! (Or: Please Stop Giving Enemies Cc)

[Xriborg]

As many other have said, I would like an active defense against stuns. A recovery button. A QTE that allows us to flip back on our feet. Something beyond losing control of my character for x seconds.

The tangled mess that is difficulty in this game is multifold, and stuns are part of the problem. I did a writeup a while ago in this thread. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/37257-the-difficulty-issues/

These new enemies are just another step in the wrong direction as far as I'm concerned.

[Sundowner]

This I am in favor of. A resistance slot would be a good addition. To make it meaningful though I would like to see enemies start using more elemental damage.

 Wait.

 

Wait wait wait.

 

Let me be sure that I understand you correctly.

 

You and temhun would rather that I have to blow a whole mod slot on stun resistance, never mind elemental damage? My mod luck's awful! It takes me an age of grinding to obtain basic mods, never mind uncommons or rares. You both favour an approach that consists of, "play better", when scorpions et al. don't really test player skill so much as luck and one's internet connection? Why exactly? My internet connection is okay, I suppose, but I still get punted from public games with alarming frequency, and lag is not kind when facing lots of angry Grineer. What possible benefit is there to making fighting in a game about being Space Ninjas less about the combat and more about the legging it in blind panic?

 

As it is, the game suffers the notable problem of conflating difficulty with cheap, player-agency-removing mechanics. What gain is there to exacerbating the problem? Being stunlocked isn't fun, generally, in Third Person Shooters I've played previously. Being stunlocked lots in a game about being a solid-gold S#&$kicker is not at all fun. For people who aren't leetgamerz111, getting pulled in four directions by hitscan no windup FutureSpace!Dominatrixes (Dominatrices? Dominatrixioes??????) isn't a test of skill or a tactical challenge, it's a kick in the nads.

 

Why do you want DE to kick me, a paying customer, in the nads?

[Epk_KekAzz_Spaz_Hog]

@Sundowner

I usually don't try to solve problems that does not concern me personally because I know, I don't have enough knowledge to come up with a good solution. Just because me and Emotitron agree at some point, doesn't mean our ideas will be forced upon you Sundowner. I understand that there are many players and every one of them may like different things. That said we should discuss this further and find a solution that will please at least most of us. I understand that democracy isn't the best way to deal with it, but I don't have a better solution right now.

If you have a better idea than why don't you share it with us? Let's discuss ideas and choose the best one.

 

@Xriah

I've seen topics proposing active defense and I think it's a good idea. Regarding your topic however I would suggest player controled difficulty settings. What settings will be there is another story for another time. What do you think?

[Emotitron]

 Wait.

 

Wait wait wait.

 

Let me be sure that I understand you correctly.

 

You and temhun would rather that I have to blow a whole mod slot on stun resistance, never mind elemental damage? My mod luck's awful! It takes me an age of grinding to obtain basic mods, never mind uncommons or rares. You both favour an approach that consists of, "play better", when scorpions et al. don't really test player skill so much as luck and one's internet connection? Why exactly? My internet connection is okay, I suppose, but I still get punted from public games with alarming frequency, and lag is not kind when facing lots of angry Grineer. What possible benefit is there to making fighting in a game about being Space Ninjas less about the combat and more about the legging it in blind panic?

 

As it is, the game suffers the notable problem of conflating difficulty with cheap, player-agency-removing mechanics. What gain is there to exacerbating the problem? Being stunlocked isn't fun, generally, in Third Person Shooters I've played previously. Being stunlocked lots in a game about being a solid-gold S#&$kicker is not at all fun. For people who aren't leetgamerz111, getting pulled in four directions by hitscan no windup FutureSpace!Dominatrixes (Dominatrices? Dominatrixioes??????) isn't a test of skill or a tactical challenge, it's a kick in the nads.

 

Why do you want DE to kick me, a paying customer, in the nads?

 

No, I would like a separate slot to exist for warframes where players can chose one or maybe two resistances. The entire mod system as it is is an oversimplified yawn that makes a mockery of metagame.

[Kiteless]

The entire mod system as it is is an oversimplified yawn that makes a mockery of metagame.

 

This is pretty on the ball. I use the same mods for everything, pretty much.

[Xriborg]

@Xriah

I've seen topics proposing active defense and I think it's a good idea. Regarding your topic however I would suggest player controled difficulty settings. What settings will be there is another story for another time. What do you think?

It would be nice to let players control the difficulty, but it's not a satisfactory solution. I go over this in the post I linked previously, but I'll try and sum it up here.

This game is easy 99% of the time. It's incredibly easy. I regularly ignore most enemies and just charge in and kill everything with little to no threat presented to me. The other 1% of the time occurs when random difficulty factors combine to make a total $%^&storm. For instance, the stalker decides to pay a visit while your sandwiched between two heavy enemy spawns in a frost mission. This very thing has happened to me before.

I survived this encounter, because I have learned to expect these things can happen. These difficulty spikes have trained me to come to each mission loaded with big weapons, big mods, ridiculous armor, health, and shields. As a consequence, the vast majority of the game is completely trivial, and leaves me bored and unchallenged.

If I decide to take on a challenge, I expose myself to the risk of one of those nasty difficulty spikes, difficulty spikes that I have no hope of surviving if the standard content is challenging.

If we want a more rewarding difficulty experience, these difficulty factors need to be brought in line before you can hope to do any sort of balancing with simple damage numbers. We need more consistency. The AI needs to be consistent and competent. The enemy spawns need to be regulated better. Independent influences on difficulty like frozen missions, additional objectives, enemy spawns popping in behind you, the stalker, etc. need to be aware of one another so they don't all pop in at once and make the game impossible.

This is no small challenge, but it needs to be addressed. The sooner the better. The longer they wait and the more content they add in without adjusting what they have, the more impossible the task will become.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Xriah

[MJ12]

@MJ12

There are so many lies about me in your posts that I won't even waste my time on responding. I've never said you are a toxic customer, but I did said you are a toxic person and you just proved that in another post. You don't even know me, but you already have my psychological portrait made up in your mentally disturbed mind. It's very typical for people like you to assume attitude of "me against them".

 

I'm looking forward to find a compromise that both sides will be satisfied with and I'm here mostly because I want to show DE staff, that there are players here, that won't be satisfied with MJ12's radical way of thinking.

 

My 'radical' way of thinking? Wherein I point out the only games with stunlock mechanics as awful as Warframe's are Roguelikes? And a minority of those at that? This is amazing. The 'radical' way of thinking would be defending stunlock mechanics which make Nethack look good, not saying that the enemy designer needs to be told to stop making enemies that stunlock and to fix every enemy with a stun mechanic so it no longer has an unavoidable, unfun stun. See, Shockwave Moas, if your get-up-from ground speed is actually fixed to not take 5 seconds, would be fine. They have a chargeup time, are reasonably fragile, and can be dodged.

 

If you can't manage to avoid that you deserve to be stunned for a bit and their rarity makes chain-stunning rare (although again, it should be made impossible). Shield Lancers are fine (assuming your standing up speed is again, fixed to be something more akin to Space Ninja than Space Muscular Dystrophy Survivor). They're power armored space marines with heavy slabs of metal who have an avoidable, rare knockdown. Ancient knockdowns are fine too. Every other enemy with a stagger or a stun is a variation on 'annoying' or '$&*&*#(%&ly annoying'.

 

There are 'so many lies' in my posts? I don't know, you aren't even trying to contest them. You're just claiming "MJ12 is a big fat doodyhead liar" when you post about how you rush because "The game is so easy lolololol" and when everyone else points out that the only way the game is ultra-easy is because of rushers like you, and these stunlock enemies are trying to make it more difficult for guys who rush and simultaneously not doing so (while screwing everyone else). And instead of admitting that this might be a problem, you defend a mechanic which doesn't affect rushers like you. The only toxic person here is you. Calling you out on being a toxic customer does not make me a 'toxic person' or 'mentally disturbed', but it does make you a hypocrite who can dish the heat out (implying everyone else is bad at the game) but can't take it (being called out on your sadism).

 

So no, my analysis is pretty spot-on unless you are literally incapable of communicating effectively in the English language. By all accounts, you're one of those guys who thinks playing in an unintended game-breaking style is the only way people should play, and because every enemy is fine if you never fight them (and make blatantly false excuses for why you don't) you should all play Loki/Ash rushers. By all accounts you don't want stun to be fixed because you want to see other people suffer.

 

I'd like you to prove me wrong but none of your posts have even attempted to do that. They've just been whining about how I'm a doodyhead in your eyes because your posting is exactly identical to an awful toxic customer who thinks screwing other customers with frustrating mechanics that you avoid wholly because you play the game in a way DE doesn't want you to is fun. It's like Javelin glitchers defending Javelin glitching as a legit game mechanic. Or aimbotters defending aimbotting as one.

[ValhaHazred]

MJ12 I have gone through this whole thread and upvoted everything you said. You speak the objective, absolute truth.

My suggestion to fix the Scorpion is to make the whip more noticeable and dodgeable. Even if it was as fast as Ancient tentacles it would be a vast improvement.

Active stun/knockdown countering, and shooting from the ground would also be appreciated.

[KenseiOmega]

In seriousness though I really hope DE does something. I just had my first real ragequit moment. I just came from a Spy mission where 3 rollers, 2 scorpions and 1 of the new flame thrower guys spawned in one of those little locker rooms. And I mean they just suddenly *poofed* in there. I saw them materialize. I never had control of my character from 100% to dead as I got ping ponged by the scorps with the rollers eating my shield for lunch, and flame guy tearing me a new one.

[MJ12]

I've encountered this new enemy couple of times since update 8, but it did give me that "oh shiz watshappenin" reaction. Not many enemies were around because I wiped a queue of them behind. When it comes to Corpus or Grineer, the best I do is look for obstacles where I can take cover then wipe out few of them so I can move on. Some of you here sound like the type who like to run in the middle of nowhere surrounded by every Corpus/Grineer with your pants down saying "uh oh! the public don't like what they see". Well it's just that, you're going to get shot at because none of them are eating donuts.

 

If you want to know who's around the corner shop, use Enemy Radar with a +10. That's enough to quick check your minimap for any red dots and be prepared on corners, but if you're a rusher then that's your problem. If you get Scorpions slowing you down, what's the point of rushing eh? It's not nice to run past your Scorpion ex girlfriends who joined the Grineer army.

 

I do agree that one Scorpion using pull and the other one follows up can be annoying and Tenno-numbing. What I would suggest is that the enemy get the "Ability already in use" error message too so the 2nd Scorpion's pull won't go off on the same player until the first one is timed out and renders the 2nd Scorpion's skill on cooldown (as well as the first Scorpion's after being affected) giving you enough time to react unless you have a snail for a brain.

 

You know, Facehugger brought up in another thread 'giving some common enemies cover-ignoring attacks would probably instantly stop all the threads whining about how the game is too easy'. This post is reinforcing that conclusion.

 

Look at the open beta trailer. If you're forced to play the game like a cover shooter, which is what you're recommending people do, the enemy design has failed and failed miserably. Furthermore, as I said, rushers don't suffer from this because they get out of dodge before anyone can hit them. Everyone else does. This discourages melee, shows the game has a total lack of any sort of cover system, encourages cheesy right-hand advantage tactics that have no place in a fun game, and going 'use a rare mod' misses the point that not everyone has Enemy fricking Radar. Every time I see someone going 'the game is too easy' I want to ask that person 'so you're just playing the game like Gears of War and not actually playing the game as apparently intended', right?

 

I have very rarely been proven wrong.

[MalusCalibur]

I have to add my agreement - stun/staggerlock is a big problem with Warframe and is the main thing that frustrates me when playing it. I am at the point where Infestation levels fill me with dread - not because I feel challenged by their combat approach or intimidated by their appearence, but because I know every single enemy has the ability to cause some kind of stun, and while Leapers are fine, practically all others are just unbearably irritating (Chargers, for example, do it on every single hit). The new Whip B*****s are no different and indeed after only a few times having to fight them was I already incensed by their unavoidable, untelegraphed stun that lasts a frankly astonishing length of time; worse enemies even than the Rollers which, for Grineer at least, I didn't think was possible.

It is really very difficult to feel like a Super-Awesome Space Ninja (as assumedly is the game's intention) when every little thing has you stumbling around and falling over.

[BoompigXD]

She doesn't need this, we just need ability to shoot here while dragged. It's very fun mechanic when your enemy is actually taunting you like that, but of course only if you are able to strike back.

 

In Azura's Wrath when Wyzen taunts you have a command that says "Shut Up Wyzen" why can't we do that to Scropion (aka shooting while stunlocked).

[Xriborg]

Every time I see someone going 'the game is too easy' I want to ask that person 'so you're just playing the game like Gears of War and not actually playing the game as apparently intended', right?

No. Actually, I'm playing the game like my enemies bullets are mere drops of rain. I run around and one-shot them with ridiculously overpowered guns, or punch them to death with my furax, or nuke a whole room with my volt uber. Basically, I just do what I feel like because I know I'm not gonna get killed unless some horrible series of unfortunate, unavoidable stunlocks/enemy spawns/whatever happens.

This game is way too easy, unless you get one of this game's massive difficulty spikes. Random, unavoidable, unpredictable, difficulty spikes.

[MJ12]

No. Actually, I'm playing the game like my enemies bullets are mere drops of rain. I run around and one-shot them with ridiculously overpowered guns, or punch them to death with my furax, or nuke a whole room with my volt uber. Basically, I just do what I feel like because I know I'm not gonna get killed unless some horrible series of unfortunate, unavoidable stunlocks/enemy spawns/whatever happens.

This game is way too easy, unless you get one of this game's massive difficulty spikes. Random, unavoidable, unpredictable, difficulty spikes.

 

I'm not sure how you're doing this unless you're really good, really lucky, somewhat exaggerating the rarity of the difficulty spikes (having 20 dudes spawn at once is a difficulty spike but doable), or somewhat overleveled for the area with good mods. Because I'm a pretty decent player and I don't find the game 'way too easy' at all. And I still have to contend with those random difficulty spikes.

 

The game needs some sort of L4D/HL2 style dynamic difficulty where enemy spawns and item drops are tailored to how well your team is doing, to some extent. Doing really well? Less health/energy drops but slightly more credits, mods, and resources drop per enemy. Doing poorly? More health/energy drops and fewer spawns (indirectly nerfing drop rates). Something as basic as that.

[BoompigXD]

I personally want their to be improved enemie AI and a heck of a lot more enemies overall preferably melee enemies with a fair amount of health so that they can actually get close to you because i would love to kill hordes of enemies all at once.

 

P:S yep i'm a masochist when it comes to video games.

[Xriborg]

The game needs some sort of L4D/HL2 style dynamic difficulty where enemy spawns and item drops are tailored to how well your team is doing, to some extent. Doing really well? Less health/energy drops but slightly more credits, mods, and resources drop per enemy. Doing poorly? More health/energy drops and fewer spawns (indirectly nerfing drop rates). Something as basic as that.

Bingo.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

No. Actually, I'm playing the game like my enemies bullets are mere drops of rain. I run around and one-shot them with ridiculously overpowered guns, or punch them to death with my furax, or nuke a whole room with my volt uber. Basically, I just do what I feel like because I know I'm not gonna get killed unless some horrible series of unfortunate, unavoidable stunlocks/enemy spawns/whatever happens.

This game is way too easy, unless you get one of this game's massive difficulty spikes. Random, unavoidable, unpredictable, difficulty spikes.

If you oneshot enemies like that, you're probably not rolling in level-appropriate areas. Try some level 3 tower exterminations or outer terminus defense beyond wave 10. I mean, I just did an L3 extermination with friends and my maxed out potato'd hek, almost fully optimized for damage (ie maxed multishot, maxed damage, almost maxed elemental attacks), outright couldn't oneshot many mooks, even with a headshot.

This'll also fix the issue with you being able to nuke things with your volt uber too.

[Madotsuki]

Y'know, fixing Scorpions is actually pretty easy. I've made a post about it previously here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/49506-feedback-lech-kril-and-the-two-new-grineer-units/#entry511226 , but i'll write it again on this thread.

Turning Scorpions from a rage-quit-worthy enemy to a fun enemy is as simple as allowing players to shoot them while being dragged on the ground. In fact, that even gives players a tactical option, depending on the situation. Do I shoot the Scorpion first and get away, or do i shoot that incoming Scorch first and deal with the scorpion afterwards? Such a small change would immediately make Scorpions a fun and challenging enemy to face, instead of the unfun annoyance that they are currently.

And of course, they should have their own unique sounds, both for idle and attacking, as well as a short telegraph before the grapple. And of course, make the grappling hook an actual projectile so we can dodge it.

[Satwo]

1. i RARELY get grabbed by scorpions, due to the fact that i shoot every moving thing that doesnt flash with teammate translucency.

2. multiple scorpions? multiple bullets. S#&$ aint complicated.

3. stunlocked by enemies? spam your AoE button. almost every warframe has one. hell, spam your uber (short of loki, just go invis and GTFO) and it will solve 99% of your stunlock problems.

4. dont have enough energy for number 3? use your GUN to kill enemies. perhaps if you save some of your energy for when it matters, you wont get screwed when it really counts.

5. having problems because youre going solo? sucks to be you. last i checked, this was ment to be a team game. granted, i could carry your sorry butt through whatever mission you THINK is hard, but i doubt your update-bashing pride would stoop to ask.

i enjoy the new mobs, i enjoy the hidden references, and i definitely hope someday the dopefish will make an appearence. the rest of you can cry all you want, but im gonna just ditch this topic after this post, because its all senseless crying as far as im concerned. us real players actually want a challenge.

[LordOfTzeentch]

1. i RARELY get grabbed by scorpions, due to the fact that i shoot every moving thing that doesnt flash with teammate translucency.

And if you had the misfortion of focusing on another enemy at the second it decides to instantly grab you with no warning what--so-ever?

 

 

2. multiple scorpions? multiple bullets. S#&$ aint complicated.

Get grabbed by one while killing another, have fun being pulled by the ankle every which way....

 

 

 

 

3. stunlocked by enemies? spam your AoE button. almost every warframe has one. hell, spam your uber (short of loki, just go invis and GTFO) and it will solve 99% of your stunlock problems.

4. dont have enough energy for number 3? use your GUN to kill enemies. perhaps if you save some of your energy for when it matters, you wont get screwed when it really counts.

Can you do this after being knocked on the ground by the instant without warning attack?

 

 

5. having problems because youre going solo? sucks to be you. last i checked, this was ment to be a team game. granted, i could carry your sorry butt through whatever mission you THINK is hard, but i doubt your update-bashing pride would stoop to ask.

Solo is a part of the game, and not everyone has a computer good enough to play multiplayer every time.

My computer seems to hate me at random times of the day.

 

 

i enjoy the new mobs, i enjoy the hidden references, and i definitely hope someday the dopefish will make an appearence. the rest of you can cry all you want, but im gonna just ditch this topic after this post, because its all senseless crying as far as im concerned. us real players actually want a challenge.

Awh yes "real players", the ones who seem to be the minority in this argument and want everyone who isn't as "uber" (really just masochistic) as them to suffer because TROLOLOLOLOLO!

And the good ol "I'm leaving before any of you can prove me wrong so I can feel good about myself". 

[Kyte]

5. having problems because youre going solo? sucks to be you. last i checked, this was ment to be a team game. granted, i could carry your sorry butt through whatever mission you THINK is hard, but i doubt your update-bashing pride would stoop to ask.

Last I checked Solo was a valid game mode, right there with Private and Invite Only.

And sorry to not live in an area with a wealth of players to choose from. South America West is empty anywhere past Venus.

[Sobezilla]

Even in a PVE co-operative gaming community things always revert to individuals making insinuations about each other and throwing around backhanded insults >_>. Stunlocks happen, yes they are annoying, no they don't make the game impossible. Can we agree?

[Whackhat]

i agree with being to shoot the scorpion while down. or cut the rope.

[ValhaHazred]

I think the Corpus are the best enemy right now.

No stunlockers (Railgun Moa stagger, but it's breif and they shoot slowly enough that you can respond)

Dodgeable Knockdown enemy. If I get hit with a Shockwave I think "oops, my fault" not "go die in a fire, programmers!"

They can hit you behind or through cover with railguns, and the Crew appear to use grenades a lot more than Grineer.

Good mix of enemies that require different tactics to take on.

Mobility really helps against them, since almost all their guns are dodgeable.

Is the person who designed the Corpus a different person? Because they are doing it right.

[Kiteless]

us real players actually want a challenge.

 

Real players?

 

Have you "real players" Played through the oldschool Armored Cores? And beaten them? Have you made your way through Godhand. the epitome of good difficulty design in videogames? Or the Souls series, which carried that torch? Have you done enough study to figure out what makes the difference between actual difficulty in gameplay, and an exercise in frustration?

Have you beaten Boss I-no? Or SMT Nocturne? Do you evaluate every game you play on the principles of design that it embodies?

Have you written academic papers on the influence of difficulty on the atmosphere of a videogame? Have you academically studied game design for at least 4 years?

 

Because if you're about to challenge my credentials as a "real player," I'm sure as hell going to challenge yours.