Dear Devs: The Current Dojo System Is Making You Lose A Lot Of Potential Profit (Solution For Big Vs. Small Clan Included)

[Unknown924]

You don't seem to understand that some of us don't like the idea of locking clan mates out of dojo funciotnality until they cough up five or six forma.

My post was more directed to the people that thought it would not give DE more money than the current system. The calculation was to find the point at which the idea would require more forma overall than the current system.

Your objection comes down to personal opinion which is different for everyone. Do you have problems with a few people supplying all the forma instead of everyone giving an equal share? If not there could be a way to pay for the access of someone else. Say let people see access requests to functional rooms and grant them by paying forma?

I think 3 forma, one to access each lab and its blueprints, would be better than 5 forma. I used 5 forma for the calculation since that is about what was proposed in the topic

The calculation with 3 forma per player:

75C = 5C + 3P

70C = 3P

23.3C = P

With 3 forma per member it would take about 23 players per clan to get DE more money. That still seems like a reasonable number to have.

[Ayalin]

Unknown924: u made my day :-)

[Avenwing]

My post was more directed to the people that thought it would not give DE more money than the current system. The calculation was to find the point at which the idea would require more forma overall than the current system.

Your objection comes down to personal opinion which is different for everyone. Do you have problems with a few people supplying all the forma instead of everyone giving an equal share? If not there could be a way to pay for the access of someone else. Say let people see access requests to functional rooms and grant them by paying forma?

I think 3 forma, one to access each lab and its blueprints, would be better than 5 forma. I used 5 forma for the calculation since that is about what was proposed in the topic

The calculation with 3 forma per player:

75C = 5C + 3P

70C = 3P

23.3C = P

With 3 forma per member it would take about 23 players per clan to get DE more money. That still seems like a reasonable number to have.

I'm going to be supplying all the forma for my clan, I'm not going to ask them to give me the one or two forma they may end up lucky enough to find.

[Ayalin]

Let's push the game further.

How much active clan does DE need to make more profit with its current model than with Lux model?

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I've gotta say that this idea is pretty elegant. It has a few flaws (ie what happens if you get kicked from the clan? Is your forma deposit refunded? Is it lost forever?), but overall it makes sense and does seem like it'd both make DE more money and be fairer for everyone else.

Take a huge clan like warbros. At the moment, they need to spend maybe 100 forma to get everything. With Lux's system, now every member who wants to participate in the clan dojo needs to chip in a couple, preventing a tragedy of the commons situation. Hundreds of forma would be required under this system, with a vastly more even distribution such that every player has to contribute something instead of leeching off of everyone else's hard work. Hopefully that'll lead to a greater sense of player community and investment in the clan as a group. Which sounds great to me.

Granted there is an issue with marginal utility for forma - grandmasters and other high rollers have so much that 100ish plat for the forma to access everything is trivial while f2pers need to spend a lot more time farming, but that's present with the current system too, and at the end of the day we are talking about a game here, not a matter of life or death with serious human costs.

Though it does occur to me that one way to ameliorate the concerns brought up by others ("I don't want new recruits to have to pay just to have fun with the dojo") would be to give other clanmates the option of paying the forma cost for a player's access. Like, player A joins a clan on recommendation of player B. Player B has plenty of plat to burn, so he buys a forma and uses it to pay player A's entry fee. From DE's perspective, forma is still being bought so no loss there, and from the player perspective, there's not as much pay to play going on, because you can still have your mates get you access if you aren't lucky enough to get forma/forma BPs from drops yourself.

Mind, I'm just a writing major, I don't into economics like you or MJ. :p

[Luxangel7]

Void keys were supposed to offer you a forma as a reward for void mission run. Sadly it doesn't give forma as a rewards(not yet or the chance is uber small)

You suggest to make dojo for people with forma only. As a free player I have not yet found any forma. So it locks me out of dojo. And turns dojo into a vip club for those with forma. How a f2p player can enter a dojo then ? He can't. So you want to split community even further.

Forma alerts ? There wasn't any yet. Login reward ? Only ammo boxes, exp and credits(today). Void run rewards ? Wrote above.

Shame on you.

 

I am not proposing making a clan a "vip / purchase only" part of the game. I have no interest to do that. You will still be able to enjoy all the benefits of being in a clan (playing with friends, communication, cooperation, hanging out etc etc). However, in order to receive the rewards for being in the clan you would have to use a little bit of forma. (3 and you already have access to using a lab or the dueling area)

 

This concern of yours can be readily fixed by what I believe is something that will already happen, and that is void keys becoming easier to find or forma drop rates will be increased. As personally, I've been playing since the update came out and I have yet to find a single void key.

 

And again, I repeat that you are exaggerating when you say "shame on you". Please understand that I have neither done nor said anything to be ashamed of. I am a gamer at heart, and want what's best for myself and other gamers as well. You should be happy that my solution also helps DE financially, not outraged or angered by it.

 

Not to mention that some people would be offended to have a total stranger morally chastise them and say "shame on you"...not once, but twice already. I won't go into how doing so without a valid reason makes you look, because I don't have any desire to start fighting with you.

 

I oversee the benefits of the large clan based dojo for the benefit of having my own because I would ultimately have control over what I want to build. Plus how do you know for sure people won't leave their current large clan to design a dojo for themselves with another group when resources become available to them?

Also, Im currently in a clan that has a lot of the things built but does that mean Im in it for the benefits alone? Anyway, there are too many factors that you left out of the plate for this assessment to be accurate or valid. I think ultimately aesthetics can overweight benefits when they do implement more customization.

 

The system I outlined encourages people to stay in clans because of the real reasons for clans: friendship, cooperation, like minded players etc. There's no need for people to leave your clan just because of my suggestion, but if they do, I think it's indicative of how maybe before they might not have been in your clan for the right reasons, or even just their personal preference may be to have a smaller clan. There's nothing wrong with that, and my system wouldn't create a reason for people leaving a large clan other than personal ones. (preference, friends etc)

 

I don't think you know. I'm not sure you have access to DE's profit charts. That might go to their financial officer. You're just speculating. I think they're getting a ton of money for this. Think about all of the people buying forma.

 

I'm sure DE is getting a ton of money from the dojo/forma system as it currently is, I'm not drawing conclusions based on how much they are earning right now. My conclusions are easily verifiable because of how they are making their profits right now. I made an analogous example a few posts back: If a lemonade stand only charges every 3rd or 4th customer for their drink, I don't need to know how much they are charging or earning, it is still a flawed earning model.

 

I agree. But you cannot assume people won't do it, particularly not if the exploit is as obvious as it is. The guild leader loses nothing (except for a member which he probably can replace with another recruit) and the former member might even have contributed to a project, before his resignation.

 

I modified my original post yesterday thanks to a friendly user pointing out the logical flaw in my reasoning for this specific point. I will update the OP once again to hopefully make it clearer that I believe once a dojo room has been unlocked, it should be a universal unlock, regardless of what clan the user goes to. Sorry if I caused any confusion. :)

 

 

Let's try this perspective.  Since you have confidence in the validity of your assertions, do you think DE would stand to profit from paying you for your advice, had you not already given it for free?

 

  I think I understand the point you are trying to make in asking this question. However, it's a bit difficult for me to answer. That is because I am very biased in answering it, no matter how objective I would like to remain.

 

My personal biases:

 

1) I would love to work for DE as game company that makes a game I love (and others in the past).

 

2) I've based my suggestion on pretty basic economic principles which have proven correct in the past for me, and have been postulated by minds much greater than my own, so it's very hard for me now to say "they won't work" for an arbitrary reason.

 

3) As any normal person would think, or like to think, I give value to not only my opinion, but especially when it comes from a professional stand point, even though it's important to remember that you can always be wrong. (if we were always right we'd never learn ;D)

 

So having said the above, I would say yes, if I were an employee of DE and had come to them saying "take a look at this you guys/gals" then I think my solution would have easily exceeded the cost of my salary/benefits.

 

Not to give you too much information about myself, but I think this is especially true because I'm not exactly a CEO or anything, I'm actually pretty young (below thirty). And while my current job pays me a respectable and comfortable salary, by no means am I paid an extravagant or obscene salary.

 

Lastly, my solution would be applied to the majority of the playerbase, increasing the potential profits for DE to a level that would easily exceed the salary of one employee.

 

But this is all just my opinion, it's very hard to objectively answer your question, not only because of my personal biases, but also because we don't know:

 

1) Exactly how much my cost to DE would have been as an employee.

2) Exactly how much more my system would bring to DE in terms of incremented profits

 

Hope that answers your question. :)

Edited May 26, 2013 by LuxAngel7

[Luxangel7]

As Brasten already noted, the current suggestion has no solution for leaving and joining clans which is a big deal since we are talking about a rare material that is either obtained through luck or money. And in conjunction with your suggestion, if people get their forma returned because a guild leader kicked them, then everyone would just ask their guild leader to kick them before they leave and abuse the system in that regard.

 

I've already modified my OP to make this part of my suggestion as clear as possible, I believe it should work as a "universal irreversible unlock". If you go to another clan you still have access to the same rooms you unlocked in another clan, and you cannot "undo" your access or get your forma back after unlocking that room. Apologies if I didn't make that clear enough, hopefully it is now. :)

 

I want to give a big +1 to Lux idea as well; I am not an economist but not farm from, I am working in the video game industry as a game data analyst.

 

In its current state, I am not going to spend any money to buy Forma; I will try to ninja stuff in a big clan where everything is built and then I will come back with my friends into a smaller clan. I have absolutely no shame to shout it.

If Lux idea was realized, me and my friend would stick together and I would eventually buy a few forma with real money in order to see our Dojo finished; then I could keep forma looted for my own stuff. 

I am the kind of Paying user which is not afraid to spend 5 dollar by month for a game that he loves; and I believe DE should be focused on myself instead of whales;

I have been urging some of my world of warcraft / league of legend friends to join me on warframe but with this new paywall, I am not sure to insist anymore... I sold them fair free-to-play like League of legend, not pay-to-play.

 

By the way, I don't really have the courage to go to the battle after 6 pages of very interesting posts, but honestly, the OP is right in approximatively all its key points, the only problem remaining being the switch between clan and the power of leaders being able to kick someone from a clan.

So I would just add: if a player leaves the clan by himself, he loses his forma invested; if he is kicked, there is a refund; would be fair. We won't avoid some arrangements (like I want to leave your clan but please kick me for getting back my forma) but it sounds okay for me. 

 

Now, a few points close to my heart as a game data analyst:

 

When choosing Dojo Building prices- why did not you look to the metric "average number of friends by player" in order to have an idea of the average size of clan for the whole player data base? I don't have any data, but I am pretty sure that people with 50+ friends are not that numerous compare to those like me who have 3/4 friends.

If you coupled this with the average gaming time for all players (7h by week? more?) and the average gain of resources based on current RNG for one active hour of play, you could have chosen prices of the dojo according to your player data base.

 

Actually, maybe you did this^^:'), but it does not fit my case btw and many others.

 

Aside all those considerations, I suspect DE just did that in order to have a long time before players starting to cry "not enough content" again. But they solve a problem by raising another (99% of worst decisions in the video game industry come generally from non-expected secondary effects).

 

I will just finish by a few words for the OP: hey you know, the kind of skills you have are more and more hired right now in the video game industry, with games being all time connected, data becomes crucial, and with the free-to-play model, having economical notion is very important too.

 

If you want, I know a great company (based in germany) that is currently seeking for economical game designer, so just ask by MP.

 

I'm glad you approve of my suggestions, and hopefully I've clarified the issue regarding too much power in the hands of clan members who can kick you. I modified the OP for a second time to try and make it clearer. Although your take on it is definitely a viable way to proceed, as it seems fair and balanced, it would probably ultimately be a detail DE caters to its own needs/analysis.

 

I really appreciate your professional view on the matter, and to answer your question I didn't really go into exact numbers and calculations for two reasons.

 

Firstly because I didn't want the thread to devolve into a "mathematical shouting match" where people come on with their own calculations and it eventually causes the original point of the thread to be completely lost. I've seen that happen a lot more times than you'd think haha.

 

Secondly, I wanted (and had) to focus on the "big picture" in order to really get the point across as well as the obvious problem of, as you and I both mentioned, we don't have all the numerical data, only DE can have that.

 

Thanks for your kind words and interesting input on the matter. :)

[Judopunch]

Until you realize that forma is also used to prestige weapons automatically removing a massive amount of it from the game.

 

I dont understand why a clan of 10 people cant deal with making one room a week.

[ThePresident777]

I don't get why people are having a hard time understanding LuxAngel7's idea.

The current system gives requires 75 forma to complete all research rooms per clan

That creates a need of 75 x number of clans that want research only

The proposed system would require 1 forma per important room for 5 forma to build a Dojo. It would also require at most 3-5 forma per player to access all research content.(5 if Oracle and Reactor also cost forma)

The need for that would be 5 x number of clans that want all research + 5 x number of players that want all research.

P = Players that want all research

C = Clans that want all research

There is an equal amount of forma used for both ideas when: 75C = 5C + 5P

Manipulating the equation:

Divide by 5: 15C = C + P

Subtract C: 14C = P

Divide by 14: C = P/14

An equal amount of forma is used if there is one C for every 14 P.

Anytime there are more than 14P per C, the second equation,5C + 5P, will result in more forma being used.

I think saying there are at least 14 players that want access to all research for every clan that wants access to all research is a safe assumption.

This is a good start. I want to point out that the "number of clans that want research only" is price sensitive. So, the "number of clans that want research only" at 75 forma can be different from the "number of clans that want research only" at 5 forma. The "number of clans that want research only" is a function of the cost of the research facilities.

I would say that the break even point is 75*C(75) = 5*C(5) + 5P, without other considerations. This can be simplified to 15*C(75) = C(5) + P. If P=C(5), i.e., one person research clans, then the break even point is 15*C(75) = C(5) + C(5), or 7.5C(75) = C(5). Under these circumstances, as long as C(5) is greater than 7.5 times C(75), DE is making more money when a research dojo costs 5 forma to construct and 5 forma to access than the current system, if forma is the only resource preventing C(5) from being more than 7.5 * C(75).

If there is no access cost, but only a construction cost then we have 15*C(75) = C(5) as the break even point.

These equations show that it is possible that, currently, dojos are over priced.

Edited May 26, 2013 by ThePresident777

[Luxangel7]

After taking the time to actually read this post, I have to say, sir, that you have your head on properly. This was very well thought out and is very fair. I completely agree with this and I would actually spend a bit more money on Warframe for some extra forma with a system like this. At the moment, I would be forking out TONS of cash to basically carry my allies with forma, which is completely unfair on me, which is why I would never do it.

 

A system like this promotes a bit more teamwork. Joining a huge clan and being an inconsequential number amongst the thousands isn't what the Tenno are about. Being a cell of comrades who trust each other and have each others backs - that's what the Tenno are about. Don't break away from that. I would highly recommend following this guys suggestion. It's fair, well thought-out and would bring in a lot of money - especially from those massive clans.

 

I highly recommend this method, DE. Do it *thumbs up*!

 

haha, thanks, I try to screw my head on tight every morning when I wake up. :P

 

I'm glad you approve of the general concept and that you got what I was trying to say. :)

[TarkoRehin]

Honestly this was a good read, I hope your feedback gets taken into consideration. As it is right now, I'm currently a leader of a small clan of friends, but I am considering temporarily joining a large clan because of how things work right now, even though I really don't want to.

[alocrius]

+1  Makes sense to me.  I was never interested in this game for it's excellence in farming. 

[Avenwing]

Until you realize that forma is also used to prestige weapons automatically removing a massive amount of it from the game.

 

I dont understand why a clan of 10 people cant deal with making one room a week.

except we'd be lucky to get enough to build one room a week. more realistically it'd be like one room a month.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Avenwing

[Luxangel7]

except we'd be lucky to get enough to build one room a week. more realistically it'd be like one room a month.

 

Yeah and that is just one of the negative effects of the current system.

[SymphNo9]

But why does the fee wall has to be forma? Why does it has to be the material everyone hates and despises due to it's core nature.

 

Why not just put the fee wall to a 1/10 (arbitrary fraction) of the original amount of the materials (except formas, remove them from the fee list), for newcomers and put those materials into a common pool which can later be used to fund new projects. If the player gets kicked, he will get the materials back and if a project is started with his materials, the project would be set on hold until sufficient amount of materials is funded.

 

 

Also, a little side note nevertheless food for thought;

Imagine a small clan with 20 people, where two of the members are hardcore F2P but very passionate about farming. Let us for now call them Mr.Toddle* and Mr.Magorium*. So, like every other good obligation minded guild member do, Mr.Toodle and Mr.Magorium spend all their resources to help the clan as best as possible, while still trying to fuel their own progression with upgrading gear (potatoes, forma, credits, etc.).

 

And then, this new lab is released and the small clan is so excited for this new content and everyone is hyped and try their best to rush the building process. Now, it just happens that Mr.Toddle and Mr.Magorium are able to fund most of the materials (excluding forma) for the requirements due to the many many farming runs they did. And after a couple of days of hardwork from farming, the small clan finally have enough resources to start the building process. Three days later, the new lab is complete and the guild members may now enjoy this cool and exotic building. Everyone is happy and running around with their new gun, blasting energy balls on the face of grineer kittens. 

 

Unfortunately for the case of Mr.Toddle and Mr.Magorium, during their many runs of endless farm, they were not lucky enough to obtain 3 formas for the entry fee to this shiny new building. Thus, they must be content with their old and worn guns for now. But that is ok, Mr.Toodle and Mr.Magorium will just keep farming in the hope of one day to gather enough forma, so they finally may join the rest of the guild and experience the new and exciting guns.

 

 

I'm also confident DE will keep selling the forma as hot bread if they just lowered the amount of required to build new buildings or just completely removed them from dojos and instead only applied to gear.

 

[size=2]*The name is fictional and bears no affiliation to actual in-game names. Also, no kittens were harmed during the production of this fictional story, however, no guarantee of grineer harm.[/size]

Edited May 27, 2013 by SymphNo9

[RazulDarkwood]

Hello, I have a clan of 24 people from my country, so far we made some corridors 1 elevator and a reactor and we are almost ready to do oracle and a lab. We work hard for our clan we saved resources since we joined the game and for me that's since 14th of January. The Dojo is hard to build for us, the small clans, but I would never join up with bigger clan or make my clan international, my clan is Bulgarian Only and I`m proud of my comrades, not only because we became close as a community but also because my country is nearly in a state of bankrupt, that makes us a bit close as members of a country in crisis.

 

I just wanted to state here that its not important to be in big clan to become strong. My clan is strong as it is, it works hard and each of my fellow players is probably equal to 10 players of the bigger clans. They are strong because they work hard for our progress they chose this hard path and that pays off. No we are not all children with lots of spare time, many of us, including me, are people of age of 25 and up. We work, we have children, I even write this from my work. If some clans want to have 1000 players ok, its their choice, but I would never join a clan or players that I don't know, tell me in a clan of 100 people even do you know each of them? I met with all my comrades, laughed with them, fought side by side with them and that made the game better for me. 

 

I don't complain about the absurd sum of resources that we must gather, people became stronger and value each room when they fight for them, with each lice of the blade, with each Kunai putted deep in the flesh of an enemy, with each shot of our fateful rifles, with each corpse fallen under our Warframe power. Stop complaining and fight for you clans!

 

screen shot software

Edited June 4, 2013 by RazulDarkwood

[PurpleNim]

100% agreed

[Nyss]

I think this idea is a good one. I've thought about it, read through the replies, and I would wholly accept this idea.

Another idea would be this: Make Forma a guaranteed mission reward, or at least give it a chance to pop up as an additioal mission reward to what players would already get for completing an Orokin Tower. This, in my opinion, would make void keys, and void key packs much more attractive purchases to the average player. I personally would rather spend 75 for some pretty levels to run through and 5 guaranteed pieces of loot + additional forma, than buy forma for 20 each. Plus buying void keys would get my friends in on the action too, and give them a chance to get some forma as well, which would benefit clan growth as a whole under Lux's system.

The way I see it, is Forma is going to rapidly turn into a second currency in this game, like Ectoplasm in Guild Wars 1 and 2. I don't mind it if DE starts requiring small forma costs for permanent enhancements to features now and in the future, but a reasonable cost/drop ratio would help matters for everyone.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Nyss

[Aizeol]

quick question: What is stopping clans from building everything they need and then inviting people?

The resource requirements would be small, but after everything is built it would be irrelevant. Right now, there is an incentive to have a larger clan and grow your community. By having an in-game benefit to keep your clan small (at least until you have everything built) not many will actually want their group to get larger; which kind of defeats one of the reasons to have a clan.

Edit: This has nothing to do with the fact that a resource that actually has a price point (forma) is required in quantities larger than $5 worth in most rooms. That is bad business and plain wrong.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Aizeol

[Luxangel7]

quick question: What is stopping clans from building everything they need and then inviting people?

The resource requirements would be small, but after everything is built it would be irrelevant. Right now, there is an incentive to have a larger clan and grow your community. By having an in-game benefit to keep your clan small (at least until you have everything built) not many will actually want their group to get larger; which kind of defeats one of the reasons to have a clan.

Edit: This has nothing to do with the fact that a resource that actually has a price point (forma) is required in quantities larger than $5 worth in most rooms. That is bad business and plain wrong.

 

To answer your question, the general concept of my proposed system is that new members who join a clan after something has been constructed would still have to contribute resources and forma on a personal individual basis to access the benefits of that room.

 

This allows for several benefits and an easier system to employ on the part of DE. Not to mention more profits etc.

 

If you take another look at my OP I'm confident you'll see what I mean. :)

[CosyPigeon]

ever thought about the possibility, that most of the clans are <10 members? (edit: and want to stay that size)

In these cases your calculation would nett as a big loss for the company ;)

 

Not really, since each individual is required to contribute the same amount of forma in order to access the content, the amount of potential profit remains exactly the same, whilst allowing for a clan of any size at all. 

[CosyPigeon]

+1 to OP. This is a much better system for Clan Dojo construction. 

[Brasten]

LuxAngel7, on 28 May 2013 - 7:51 PM, said:

To answer your question, the general concept of my proposed system is that new members who join a clan after something has been constructed would still have to contribute resources and forma on a personal individual basis to access the benefits of that room.

This allows for several benefits and an easier system to employ on the part of DE. Not to mention more profits etc.

If you take another look at my OP I'm confident you'll see what I mean. :)

I would put it as analogous to making the Clan Key. To get into the Dojo in the first place everyone in the Clan has to build a Key. Just instead of one key, you have to build an "Access Card" to "feature" rooms like the Dueling Room, or Oracle and related Labs.

[Luxangel7]

I would put it as analogous to making the Clan Key. To get into the Dojo in the first place everyone in the Clan has to build a Key. Just instead of one key, you have to build an "Access Card" to "feature" rooms like the Dueling Room, or Oracle and related Labs.

 

yeah this is a good analogy to easily convery what I was trying to say with my proposed system. The entire point is making each and every clan member responsible for contributing to their own access for things that have been agreed upon and built upon within the group's goals, as well as promoting being in a clan of whatever size for the right reasons, not just convenience to get what you want and then quit.

[Blatantfool]

Today's Livestream gave a little insight to how DE is currently looking at the Clans. How are you thinking about things now, knowing DE has posed a 50 man clan as an example of what they consider 'the small guys' they want to rebalance for?

 

 There is still a lot that is subject to change, like always, but it is definitely an interesting prospect to have there be a number from DE to consider.