What Would You Think Of... A Gambler Warframe? (Read Before Posting)

[Toppien]

no more RNG please last i need is a % chance of shooting a power to myself...

[Blackout751]

Can we not bring RNG into our powers any more? Please?

[Archwizard]

So like, RNGambit? Sounds... fun?

First thing I thought of: "My life is a chip in the pile... time to ante up."In reality, this would probably be a very frustrating concept to attempt to run with, unfortunately. Can't see it working out.

like using your skills is rng? get a bad roll and you explode, killing your frame and taking away 30% of your plat and credits.

This would give "RNG Frame" a whole new meaning.

Think RNG fame would be a nightmare? Just imagine the levels on RNG required to get his parts.

RNG class ?

Um, no random powers. That's just silly. You need to be able to KNOW what will happen.

no more RNG please last i need is a % chance of shooting a power to myself...

Can we not bring RNG into our powers any more? Please?

Alrighty, follow-up question:

How often do you personally play or request the services of a Desecrate-build Nekros?

Not asking to lead the conversation, more to encourage the discussion.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Archwizard

[Chroia]

Alrighty, follow-up question:

 

How often do 1) you personally play or 2) request the services of a Desecrate-build Nekros?

1) When someone else needs help farming a resource (before and after Pilfering Swarm), else never.

2) Never.

 

Edit for clarity

Life support is much less feast-or-famine now, so you can afford to skip the 'mandatory' Nekros in most survivals. For now.

Also, depends a lot on your available mods/gear and team composition.

 

But aside from that?

No thanks, I want to play a frame I can actually, you know, play with. And I don't like Nekros' skillset.

 

Second edit:

To be fair, I never played a Lootroid unless helping someone farm resources, either.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Chroia

[Volume]

[Archwizard]

Let's say you were tasked to design a Gambler for Warframe. Would their powers use any amount of "chance to X" randomness, purely skill-based risk-reward tactics, or just casino gimmicks? Would their job be hitting the jackpot, or would they be an honorable combatant from the Old War? How would you go about executing this plan?

 

Interesting how few players have actually attempted to answer this section of the OP, opting to go straight for the first line of the thread in the broadest sense and shutting down.

 

I'm asking less about community interest in one (if DE was so inclined, they would move forward regardless - just look at Desecrate), and more how players think the topic or design should be approached.

[motorfirebox]

Honestly, I think the risk vs reward thing should be pretty toned-down, at least in terms of RNG determining how powers work. Maybe his 1 will have a chance to backfire, but even then, it should 'backfire' in a way that's ultimately useful. You're spending energy on these powers, if they have a 50/50 chance to kill you or something they're not going to be worth using unless they win the game for you the other 50% of the time (at which point everybody who doesn't play the frame will start complaining about him being OP).

 

I think instead, his powers and playstyle should encourage a high risk/reward playstyle. Like maybe he has low health and shields, but his powers are all close-range. Maybe one of his powers refills his health and/or shields, but it takes some doing to pull off correctly.

 

Here's an example, maybe this could be his 2:

 

Draw (50 energy): The Gambler 'deals' a phantom card to every enemy within X meters, Ricky Jay style. The cards get stuck in a random location on each enemy's body, dealing a minimal amount of damage. While the cards remain stuck in the enemies, the Gambler and the rest of the squad can shoot the cards to release a burst of healing, shield restore, or energy restore (random per card). Burst range is short, maybe 15m. At the end of the power's duration, any remaining cards burst, albeit with only 5m range. Bursts also do 500 damage in a 5m range.

Edited August 20, 2015 by motorfirebox

[NalkorRN]

 

At this point in Warframe, we've basically seen it all. Our arsenals have engineers, paladins, dragons, jesters and stage magicians - we really can't say anything would be "out of place" anymore, which makes every theme free game.

 

So my question today is, what would you think of the hypothetical addition of a Gambler class?

 

Many games have already set a precedent of a class who fights with cards or dice, weaponizing slot machines and even the money they've already swindled out of others (giving their attack power an element of scalability). The archetype has proven quite successful, due to their wide array of possible abilities.

 

However, an example of a Gambler-esque ability already exists within Nekros' Desecrate, whose random and uncontrollable effectiveness leads to very polarizing opinions of his playstyle. Some players swear that the reward overcomes the cost, while others believe that having a Warframe influence rewards makes a poor substitute for safety nets and is bad for the development of the game.

There are ways to design a Gambler's abilities without forcing a player to pray to RNGesus for the skill to work as intended - but if anyone should have a random effect within their arsenal or churn out loot, it should be a Gambler, no?

 

TL;DR:

Let's say you were tasked to design a Gambler for Warframe. Would their powers use any amount of "chance to X" randomness, purely skill-based risk-reward tactics, or just casino gimmicks? Would their job be hitting the jackpot, or would they be an honorable combatant from the Old War? How would you go about executing this plan?

 

Edit:

 

 

Drops are already a gamble, let's try to avoid anything that might make it even worse. DE's track record of hiding content beyond increasingly insane requirements means they might just make it so unless you get the frame parts dropped in a specific order that requires getting them after each kill means you might lose all progress towards getting the frame. Say it's based off some new event promoting a new boss hidden behind a keygate, every time you kill that boss after the event ends, you have a chance of getting the Chassis, Helm, or Systems BP and to make the Gambler, you need to get the Chassis, Helm, and Systems BP in that order within 3 boss kills or you have to start farming the drops all over.

 

DE would think that would be funny and challenging, all the while charging like, $30 USD for a gimmicky frame who doesn't hold a candle to the frames that are tried and true in their usefulness (Nyx, Trinity, Loki with Radial Disarm against ranged-heavy factions, etc).

[Toppien]

Alrighty, follow-up question:

How often do you personally play or request the services of a Desecrate-build Nekros?

Not asking to lead the conversation, more to encourage the discussion.

 

call me crazy but my nekros is shadows of the dead build only

 

and no i never request for nekros for anything, i better buy the mods

[Avenias]

At this point in Warframe, we've basically seen it all. Our arsenals have engineers, paladins, dragons, jesters and stage magicians - we really can't say anything would be "out of place" anymore, which makes every theme free game.

So my question today is, what would you think of the hypothetical addition of a Gambler class?

Many games have already set a precedent of a class who fights with cards or dice, weaponizing slot machines and even the money they've already swindled out of others (giving their attack power an element of scalability). The archetype has proven quite successful, due to their wide array of possible abilities.

However, an example of a Gambler-esque ability already exists within Nekros' Desecrate, whose random and uncontrollable effectiveness leads to very polarizing opinions of his playstyle. Some players swear that the reward overcomes the cost, while others believe that having a Warframe influence rewards makes a poor substitute for safety nets and is bad for the development of the game.

There are ways to design a Gambler's abilities without forcing a player to pray to RNGesus for the skill to work as intended - but if anyone should have a random effect within their arsenal or churn out loot, it should be a Gambler, no?

TL;DR:

Let's say you were tasked to design a Gambler for Warframe. Would their powers use any amount of "chance to X" randomness, purely skill-based risk-reward tactics, or just casino gimmicks? Would their job be hitting the jackpot, or would they be an honorable combatant from the Old War? How would you go about executing this plan?

Edit:

i got a name for it, RNG frame.

[dice]

Genuinely awesome, thought about this myself.

 

Base shields, armour and health are below average. 

 

Passive: +2% more credits when picking them up, +10% added chance to dodging enemy bullets (accuracy debuff)

 

Skill 1: Raise the stakes - 25 energy

 

Put a chip in the pile, grants either temporary damage bonus 33%, damage resistance 33% of the time, 34% chance movement speed. Stacks a "chip." Stackable up to 5 times.

 

Skill 2: Roullette - 25 energy

Applies a random elemental status effect to enemies in range. Status effects include: Heat, Toxin, Freeze, Electricity, Gas, Blast, Radiation, Viral, Corrosive, Magnetic. Can be cast numerous times to stack many status effects.

 

Skill 3: Dodge 'em - 75 energy

+30% chance to dodge enemy fire (accuracy debuff).

 

Skill 4: High roller - 100 energy

 

Depending how many stacks of "chip" you have, you either win big or lose big. A heal effect for the entire team, and radial stun effect around you, scale-able with more stacks of chip if you win big. Losing big means you take damage scale-able with chip stacks and you are stunned temporarily. 

 

Duration affects Raise the stakes, Roullette, Dodge 'em and High Roller

Range affects Roullette and High Roller

Strength affects Raise the Stakes, Roullette, Dodge 'em (Dodge 'em has power strength cap out of 100%), and High Roller 

 

What do you guys think?

[Archwizard]

Alrighty, follow-up question:

How often do you personally play or request the services of a Desecrate-build Nekros?

 

1) When someone else needs help farming a resource (before and after Pilfering Swarm), else never.

2) Never.

 

Edit for clarity

Life support is much less feast-or-famine now, so you can afford to skip the 'mandatory' Nekros in most survivals. For now.

Also, depends a lot on your available mods/gear and team composition.

 

But aside from that?

No thanks, I want to play a frame I can actually, you know, play with. And I don't like Nekros' skillset.

 

Second edit:

To be fair, I never played a Lootroid unless helping someone farm resources, either.

 

call me crazy but my nekros is shadows of the dead build only

 

and no i never request for nekros for anything, i better buy the mods

 

Additional follow-up:

 

Let's say the Gambler was designed with absolutely no random elements. Perhaps it used controllable slot machines, weaponized Gil Toss or card throws, and/or provided buffs to crit and status chances (which on some level, actually reduces combat gambling).

 

How would this affect your views of RNG-heavy frames like Nekros and Hydroid?

Do you think a Gambler deserves more RNG than other classes? Would you call for changes to other classes instead?

What position do you see RNG having in Warframe's combat, in general?

Edited August 21, 2015 by Archwizard

[Chroia]

Additional follow-up: <snip>

You're asking this of a person who slots Critical Delay on his Tonkor, despite that being a lower average damage-per-shot vs. a 90% elemental, so that he can have reliable crits.

You're asking this of someone who thinks that Desecrate should somehow be limited in # of casts (1 per corpse, affected by power str. to 100% success, passive aura, anything) because its unreliability forces the player to spam it, which means they're not doing something else/useful/fun

You're asking this of someone who won't build a shotgun for status unless it can hit 100%.

You're asking this of someone who thinks that the Puncture proc is pointless because it's unreliable.

etc.

 

I think that RNG should never be a single-route make-or-break.

e.g. This means tokens or a streakbreaker system for drops.

e.g. This means not 'flip a coin. Heads skill works, tails nothing'.

 

Like I said in my first post, you want an dice-gamble frame? Fine.

As long as its skills have a baseline functionality, I probably won't protest too loudly.

e.g. Buff has X base effect, plus a random bonus/penalty, with power strength affecting the range.

(e.g. 10% firerate + a ((-5) to10)%*power str bonus)

 

 

 

How would this affect your views of RNG-heavy frames like Nekros and Hydroid?

It wouldn't.

 

 

 

Do you think a Gambler deserves more RNG than other classes?

Deserves? That depends on what being a 'Gambler' means, to you.

To me?

There's 'gambler' and there's 'Gambler'.

A person whose profession is gambling (read: a Gambler) is in the business of tilting the odds to his favor as best as possible, as opposed to a 'gambler' - who'll just toss the dice and pray to RNG.

tl;dr- not necessarily.

 

 

 

Would you call for changes to other classes instead?

Already do.

 

 

What position do you see RNG having in Warframe's combat, in general?

'Nat 20 and you win, nat 1 and you lose' is neither interesting nor engaging.

This is why rolling dice is always a part of something else.

...

To answer your question: All direct RNG in Warframe combat is opt in.

Sure, things like AI (if RNG-based), spawn compositions, orb/ammo drops etc. are RNG.

But combat? Consider the following:

Every single weapon does a static, non-variable amount of damage, split consistently between whichever damage types.

Every single damage type has a constant relationship with every armor type.

In order for crit or status to play a significant part in your combat, you need to actively pick a weapon that supports them and mod for it.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Chroia

[NeroGrave]

Gambler warframe? You mean an RNG-based Warframe? So now we need to grind a frame with RNG and it's abilities will be dealt based on RNG? I can only think of the cries of the people when their frame deals the minimum effects of abilities continuously thanks to RNG.

[Ziegrif]

Powers:

 

1. Activate 3 Tier one frame powers for random duration and power.

 

2. Activate 3 Tier 2 Frame powers for random duration and power.

 

3. Activate 3 Tier 3 Frame powers for random duration and power.

 

4. Has a chance to activate every single power in the game for random duration and power.

Or Activate every assassin to attack you even if you're not marked.

Or Kill everyone in the current map allies and enemies included, last ally will be left with 1 health and 1 shield if the mission would otherwise fail.

Or Cause a rift and another enemy faction will start pouring out of the hole until you mend the rift by shooting at it enough.

Or Restore everyone from bleeding, death etc with full energy and a mission permanent power buff.

Or Quadruple resource OR xp OR Credit gain for this mission.

Or Do absolutely nothing but add a random weather effect on the map no matter how illogical it is.

Or Glitch out the Lotus.

Or any of the above in tandem with each other.

Or all of the above.

4th can only be used once per mission.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Ziegrif

[Archwizard]

Gambler warframe? You mean an RNG-based Warframe? So now we need to grind a frame with RNG and it's abilities will be dealt based on RNG? I can only think of the cries of the people when their frame deals the minimum effects of abilities continuously thanks to RNG.

 

Congratulations, you're the nth person to post based on the title without reading the OP!

 

Allow me to just alter a couple lines and change the thread title for your convenience.

 

-snip-

 

You could stand to be less hostile and promote discussion. This thread isn't "in defense" of the concept.

 

I'm questioning the flaws, and hoping that others will do the same with me by presenting a neutral battleground.

 

Personally, I hate Desecrate - that's no secret, ask anyone on the feedback forums about Archwizard's opinion on Nekros and grab your umbrella for the sh*tstorm. I wish it never existed, I've tried at every avenue to get it and skills like it replaced. It creates terrible gameplay, it promotes toxic and entitled behavior, it contributes nothing to Nekros' own kit, it was universally reviled when it was announced and DE pushed it out in spite of us even though they had a backup option - but as I said in the OP, people swear by it at every turn these days and will defend it to the death, even to the point of trying to make it all that Nekros is. It's dug its claws so deep that players already scream the game is broken without it, but have no intention of addressing any underlying issues with this knowledge.

 

Part of the intention of this thread is to understand why - either for myself to, or for those "pro-Desecrate" to. From experience, nobody cares when you boil it down to "the skill is literally bribing you to use it"; they need to find that out for themselves.

 

It makes little sense for Nekros to have, but it makes plenty for a Gambler. Given the chance, would anybody actually want a Gambler to have it? If not a Gambler, then who? If nobody, why tolerate those that do?

 

You don't, so the question isn't for you. Ask another.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Archwizard

[Chroia]

You could stand to be less hostile and promote discussion.

I apologize if that came across as hostile, that wasn't the intention.

"I" was asked a question, I gave an answer. Or so I thought.

Obviously, I'm severely biased. Apparently, that, err, 'leaked through'.

 

 

This thread isn't "in defense" of the concept.

...

You don't, so the question isn't for you. Ask another.

Fair enough, I'll leave you to it and wish you luck.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Chroia

[Archwizard]

Only if we get an Alcoholic warframe, and a druggy too.

 

Drunken Master, Alchemist, and Plant Frame for good measure.

 

Entirely doable.