How To Fix Ember

[owendawgx]

Let's be real. She's bad. Real bad. You know it, I know it, we all know it. So, let's fix her!

 

ABILITIES:

 

Rebirth: No more Fireball. That skill is garbage and you all know it, especially considering Fire Blast is basically an AoE version. So, instead, this. Target an Ally a restore a percent of health, with a duration based status immunity afterwords, as well as purging all current statuses on the target. Cannot target herself, and the casting range as well as heal strength and status immunity duration are impacted by mods. Augment works as it does now. 

 

Accelerant: Nothing. This ability is great.

 

Fire Blast: Phenomenal ability, definitely her best damage option taking into account modding ability.

 

Eruption: "World on Fire" is the single worst and least creative name in the entire game, and doesn't even accurately describe the ability in the most fitting manner. Instead, Eruption. When Ember activates the ability, the explosions go off like they currently do, with enemy targeting and heat damage impacted by mods. HOWEVER, there is no longer an energy drain/toggle, and instead of following Ember, the explosions occur in the area that Ember initially cast the ability (impacted by Range), and Eruption continues in that area as long as the duration is, which is also impacted by mods. Augment works as it does now. Potential number tweaks on Heat proc chance/damage.  

 

TL;DR This rework gives Ember a role in a team, as well as a much more efficient way of dealing damage and locking down an area, without Ember having to constantly be in the midst of battle. Leave your thoughts below! 

[Jamescell]

Didn't you already post this?

Edit: Nevermind. Just the same ability name.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Jamescell

[owendawgx]

Didn't you already post this?

Edit: Nevermind. Just the same ability name.

Probably, ideas for a fire themed warframe dont have very many alternate naming conventions, and even this is an expansion upon names like "world on fire" 

[TheSIlent1]

So a combat fire medic, mmm nah i don't really like it myself, after all shes based on damage in CC, leave the healing to the frames who heal and the damage abilities to the damage frames.
Ember late game turns into a CC frame knock back and panic, have you noticed enemy's tend to walk around her 3rd ability then running straight through it.

-Take of the duration of world of fire make it stronger.
-Buff fire damage.
-I'm not sure if panicked enemy's take more damage when on fire but this should be the case.

Edit: Embers old world of fire practically made the world (well anything close to ember) on fire and had the floor underneath her look like molten rock.

Edited August 30, 2015 by TheSIlent1

[owendawgx]

-Take of the duration of world of fire make it stronger.

-Buff fire damage.

-I'm not sure if panicked enemy's take more damage when on fire but this should be the case.

 

Whoops didnt mean to +1, mb. Cant -1.

 

-only a small buff to a sea of problems with that ability

-Buffing damage just makes it take slightly longer till shes useless.

-basically accelerant. Stop thinking damage, think utility. If you want all of her abilities to do damage, then you clearly haven't played much Warframe because that is useless lol. 

[TheSIlent1]

Whoops didnt mean to +1, mb. Cant -1.

 

-only a small buff to a sea of problems with that ability

-Buffing damage just makes it take slightly longer till shes useless.

-basically accelerant. Stop thinking damage, think utility. If you want all of her abilities to do damage, then you clearly haven't played much Warframe because that is useless lol. 

 

yeah 2 yrs isn't much i guess XD For a warframe based an dealing damage and crowd control i kinda expect to see her do this. 

Damage is what kills enemy's utility just speeds up the process.

Give her a passive in which fire attacks weaken Armour and slows shield regeneration. Makes her useful late game and seeing grinner that glow orange and turn into orange goop would be nice to see.

[ZoneDymo]

"Let's be real. She's bad. Real bad. You know it, I know it, we all know it. So, let's fix her!"

 

Accelerant: Nothing. This ability is great.

Fire Blast: Phenomenal ability, definitely her best damage option taking into account modding ability. 

 

 

Does not compute

[Lord_LongFace]

Make up a better 1, Ember isnt about heals. I find fire ball to pretty impactfull if you spam it.

[ZoneDymo]

Make up a better 1, Ember isnt about heals. I find fire ball to pretty impactfull if you spam it.

 

Not that Im for or against the suggested heal ability, but you should scrape the "isnt about heals".

There is no set rules of what something should or should not be, dont be afraid of change.

[Hammahness808]

Rebirth: No more Fireball. That skill is garbage and you all know it, especially considering Fire Blast is basically an AoE version. So, instead, this. Target an Ally a restore a percent of health, with a duration based status immunity afterwords, as well as purging all current statuses on the target. Cannot target herself, and the casting range as well as heal strength and status immunity duration are impacted by mods. Augment works as it does now.

Would work just fine as an augment. Fire, in different "magical lore" is associated with "cleansing", so this isn't far fetched.

 

Also, would personally love to see Fireblast go and something like a Firewave or a simple Firenova take it's place. It's been discussed in many Ember rework/tweak/feedback threads that the inner ring just doesn't function very well. Enemies run through it, so they generally take little damage. Even if they do stand in it, it's possible they can enter the center of the ring and receive no damage. It also doesn't have a high proc chance, even though it's a swirling fire of doom. The knockdown isn't consistent and the firewave/initial explosion barely does any damage without accelerant and decent modding. Fireblast needs some major tweaks if it wants to stay.

[Casval_Rouge]

Rebirth:  A single target heal and cleanse?  Just no.  Even as a 1st power this is useless.  Trinity has aoe heal with just Well of Life.  No one would bring Ember for this ability.  Cleanse and status immune is not worht it when you already be topped off. Oberon can do the same with his 3rd, but its also aoe.  Both of them don't require the need to target allies, making it far better in combat.  Why would anyone want to have Ember just for this?  Its not even all that useful. Also this can't target yourself?  What so this power is literally useless when solo or even when your allies are out of range?  I think that's a first in Warframe. 

 

Eruption:  I don't get the point of this change.  Its radial so Ember still needs to be right in the midst of things, but now it doesn't even follow so its only useful in defense missions, unless its aoe is sufficiently large enough for interceptions. But then even Hydroid can do the same CC with his 1st. Then It needs duration to serve as area denial, yet with your suggestion - Rebirth, duration would only really affect Eruption since Accelerant with duration is not necessary. 

 

None of these fix what is bad with Ember, why she is not used in higher level. 

[Prospal]

Personally, I'd integrate formely discarded Overheat into her World on Fire; resulting additional damage up close due to fire aura,  and increased damage resistance. Not to the point of old overheat which could be comfortably modded to resist something like 95 percents of all damage, but still meaningful, and integrate that knockdown augment into ability by default. Making it into a true toggleble ability would have been nice, too. 

 

Then, I'd probably make fireball AoE bigger; and probably knockdown, too. Needs to have a reason to be actually used.

 

Accelerate could benefit slightly from bonuses - armor-down, other debuffs - but it's in a good-ish place right now.  

 

Not sure what to do with her third without turning her into frost, or intruding into Volt's niche, aside from general "Inflict fireprocs, doesn't let enemies cross it" stuff.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Prospal

[SteaKnight-X]

I would like to see something "Phoenix" related
A defensive skill that would make her raise from her ashes.

 

May be stronger version of the fire elemental ward. (I know, not much creative. But still something that goes into that direction)

[owendawgx]

I would like to see something "Phoenix" related

A defensive skill that would make her raise from her ashes.

May be stronger version of the fire elemental ward. (I know, not much creative. But still something that goes into that direction)

That was what my aim was with suggesting a change to her first ability, but a "rise from the ashes [death]" would be pretty damn OP if it didn't have drawbacks (like the nekros augment). This is focused on still letting her burn S#&$ up but also support her team and offer a degree of AoE cc

[(PSN)Dan_Aria]

Fireball is better than your suggestion. It's a single target(+minor AoE) ability and it can do headshots, heat proc being affected by the headshot AND Accelerant.

Your idea would remove a rather useful for Single-target/VIP picking ability and instead of improving upon that would discart it for something that would be useless in almost all situations. Fireball Frenzy is better for supporting if that's the case.

Accelerant is good as it is indeed.

 

Fireblast.. not sure if I follow, Fireblast has more uses for CC and Pushing nullifiers away than DPS. It is certainly not more damaging than a well aimed fireball. Also: I dont see why compare Fireball to Fireblast. Sure it does AoE dmg but it is less damage than a Fireball single-target wise. Different purposes.
 

World on Fire: I disagree, Ember feels like a mobile, high-input warframe. To make WoF an AoE @ a set area would kill what Ember have always been ability-concept wise.

---
With that said, I will leave a couple of ideas that I think to be the ideal path for Ember (and what other players said that I happen to agree with)

Fireball: They could improve the ability like they did with Frost's #1. Leave a patch of flames on the ground with decent Heat-proc chance.

Fireblast: This ability is a mess, it has its uses but more often than not the concept contradicts itself. By nature it is clear to be a defensive ability but the Fire wave pushes enemies OUT of the ring of flames so more often than not u're wondering why the Ring is still there.
I believe this ability could benefit from a defensive buff to Ember while she stands inside of the ring, being a tactical-safe-zone. It can be anything, from flat damage reduction to drastically lowered Enemy accuracy, or even healing over time aswell.

World on Fire: IMO this ability can be tweaked. Let's face it, DE isn't removing the duration, that would make the ability basically a passive unless the energy cost was increased and Ember is a high-input warframe that casts a lot so Energy is precious. DE should add +5s to the ability, that way -Duration from Fleeting/Transient doesn't hurt it so much in its duration. Keep in mind that you dont need this ability to have a very long duration and after the Accelerant cast speed buff u can simply recast it, virtually, it is already with "no-duration" . They could bump the status chance a bit more as to benefit from power strength in a larger scale.

Ember can use some tweaks to energy costs too as she, unlike many frames, requires a lot of casting at times.

Indirect change: Take a look @ Stagger/interrupt animations, sometimes enemies that were in some animations while they were inflicted with heat proc don't panic.
----

I think that's about what I think should happen, maybe something more or something else, who knows, it's an opinion.

 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

I still think accelerant needs to be rewkorked as a team buff instead of enemy debuff.... Giving everyone added fire damage to all attacks and sharing that cast speed buff

[SteaKnight-X]

That was what my aim was with suggesting a change to her first ability, but a "rise from the ashes [death]" would be pretty damn OP if it didn't have drawbacks (like the nekros augment). This is focused on still letting her burn S#&$ up but also support her team and offer a degree of AoE cc

Of course, I wasnt aiming for a revive skill. That would be too OP^^

Just something like the fire version of elemental ward(but a bit stronger

It would provide a little defence( but not to much, she is a dmg frame after all^^)

And it would still have the defensive aspect.

But I would not like to see it on the first ability slot( too strong for that)

[Rollerlane]

damnit shes not broken  ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

[owendawgx]

damnit shes not broken  ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

Oh yea, u right, a frame with 3 damage dealing abilities that do pretty much the same damn thing isn't broken. lol. 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

damnit shes not broken  ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

 

Did you know her ultimate does the same amount of damage as her first ability?

 

Did you know both do low damage?

 

Did you know her first ability has a hard time killing things as most enemies are resistant to fire in some way?

 

Did you know nullifiers absolutely destroy ember as she no viable defensive abilities if enemies are inside the bubble 

 

Did you know most warframes in the game have 1 good defensive ability except for ember? (accelerant doesn't count as its a debuff, Im referring to things like rhino skin, renewal, warcry, exalted blades blocking attacks/radial disarm, link, absorb, molt, electric shield, eclipse, undertow, shield polarize, snowglobe, vex armor, smokescreen, invisibility, and turbulence

 

Did you know even with accelerants damage buff, sayrn can out damage ember for half the energy cost? did you know radial javelin will always outperform every one of embers abilities since its damage is balanced from all three damage types while ember is only kinda effective vs infested

 

Did you know we want ember reworked so she becomes more powerful and we can use her as endgame later instead of just using her for quick low level exterminates?

 

Did you know that ember currently takes the cannon out of glass cannon?

[Ryjeon]

Did you know her ultimate does the same amount of damage as her first ability?

 

Did you know both do low damage?

 

Did you know her first ability has a hard time killing things as most enemies are resistant to fire in some way?

 

Did you know nullifiers absolutely destroy ember as she no viable defensive abilities if enemies are inside the bubble 

 

Did you know most warframes in the game have 1 good defensive ability except for ember? (accelerant doesn't count as its a debuff, Im referring to things like rhino skin, renewal, warcry, exalted blades blocking attacks/radial disarm, link, absorb, molt, electric shield, eclipse, undertow, shield polarize, snowglobe, vex armor, smokescreen, invisibility, and turbulence

 

Did you know even with accelerants damage buff, sayrn can out damage ember for half the energy cost? did you know radial javelin will always outperform every one of embers abilities since its damage is balanced from all three damage types while ember is only kinda effective vs infested

 

Did you know we want ember reworked so she becomes more powerful and we can use her as endgame later instead of just using her for quick low level exterminates?

 

Did you know that ember currently takes the cannon out of glass cannon?

 

I don't know this stuff. Because I play Ember every day and regularly see her shine as a damage dealer. She's a warframe without training wheels. Who shines when you use all your game knowledge and resources together.

 

Also I can read the Damage 2.0 chart and see Heat only has damage reduction vs Proto Shields which only Nullifiers, Corpus Bosses and Sniper Crewmen possess. Otherwise Heat receives the same reductions vs armor and ancient auras that just about every other damage type has to deal with. And the same solutions of synergizing with Corrosive Projection or status procs holds true for Ember, and even more so since she can continue using her weapons while keeping her ultimate active.

 

Ember's damage doesn't suck for me. Because I can glance at her kit and know she should have plenty of extra power strength, and know that I should make the most of her ability to multi-task by not relying solely on one ability to do my damage.

 

Fireball can headshot and can be used while firing your weapon and during World on Fire. It's pure bonus damage. And thanks to it's burn proc it can one-shot or chunk out a heavy enemy. Tip: Aim. Don't just rely on the splash damage. If it can do the same damage as World on Fire then it can do up to 8000 damage on hit not including headshots or the burn.

 

Did you know Energy cost isn't a big deal? That Large energy restores are cheap and plentiful. That there are plenty of other tools of addressing energy cost like Fleeting Expertise, Rage, and Syndicate effects?

 

Did you know the frames are meant to support different approaches to the game and are not supposed to be carbon copies of one another? If you like other frames then play them. Or at least stop pretending like Ember can't perform when plenty of players who enjoy the frame do amazing with her every day. If you still want to address her flaws or contribute ideas, great. Every frame's gameplay should be continually reviewed, streamlined and expanded.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Ryjeon

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

I don't know this stuff. Because I play Ember every day and regularly see her shine as a damage dealer. She's a warframe without training wheels. Who shines when you use all your game knowledge and resources together.

 

Also I can read the Damage 2.0 chart and see Heat only has damage reduction vs Proto Shields which only Nullifiers, Corpus Bosses and Sniper Crewmen possess. Otherwise Heat receives the same reductions vs armor and ancient auras that just about every other damage type has to deal with. And the same solutions of synergizing with Corrosive Projection or status procs holds true for Ember, and even more so since she can continue using her weapons while keeping her ultimate active.

 

You didn't pay attention to my post all that well either. Her damage is low. I have no problem with how she plays except that her damage is low and she contributes nothing to a team at higher levels. She has no scaling. After level 40 you would burn through 20 energy pads before a saryn burned through her power bar.

 

Ember's damage doesn't suck for me. Because I can glance at her kit and know she should have plenty of extra power strength, and know that I should make the most of her ability to multi-task by not relying solely on one ability to do my damage.

 

Fireball can headshot and can be used while firing your weapon and during World on Fire. It's pure bonus damage. And thanks to it's burn proc it can one-shot or chunk out a heavy enemy. Tip: Aim. Don't just rely on the splash damage. If it can do the same damage as World on Fire then it can do up to 8000 damage on hit not including headshots or the burn.

 

Did you know Energy cost isn't a big deal? That Large energy restores are cheap and plentiful. That there are plenty of other tools of addressing energy cost like Fleeting Expertise, Rage, and Syndicate effects?

 

Did you know the frames are meant to support different approaches to the game and are not supposed to be carbon copies of one another? If you like other frames then play them. Or at least stop pretending like Ember can't perform when plenty of players who enjoy the frame do amazing with her every day. If you still want to address her flaws or contribute ideas, great. Every frame's gameplay should be continually reviewed, streamlined and expanded.

 

Try reading ember's in game description

~Ember is a nightmare for light-armoured targets. Ember can super-heat the air which opens up surprising crowd-control possibilities.~

except there's nothing really surprising.... CC is limited to spamming fireblast and accelerant.

Light armored would be the infested and the corpus.... And at a certain point in time corpus shields are so large that you need viral or magnetic damage to deal with them, fire just bounces off their shields. Same with armor. But you obviously don't play any high tier stuff where enemies are higher then level 30.

 

You obviously didn't read my post very well as I never said she needed to play like other frames. I said she can't match their damage. And 8000 damage to a single target is pretty weak. Also what level was this enemy? Sayrn can easily do 10k damage to a group of enemies for about 25 energy. Nova can do about 800k damage to any enemy hit by antimatter absorb, Excalibur can do 20k damage per energy wave and even more if he can get his combo counter up. Frost after rework can halve any enemy with snowglobe and his avalanche reduces armor. Ember's damage is pathetic, she has no usefulness to a team and she desperately needs a rework.

Accelerant is restrictive, Her damage is low and she has no scaling

 

(also Anything that needs a crutch do damage isn't very good at its job. Energy pads are a crutch. )

[belcebub]

You say

 

 "World on Fire" is the single worst and least creative name in the entire game

But i think Inkspots

 

 

While we have 'freeze' and 'shock' and er.... 'invisibility' and the likes all over the place. Hell, no nee to leave ember, there's the staple 'fireball' right there, doesn't get more boring nameing-wise than that :P

Edited August 31, 2015 by belcebub

[Ryjeon]

Try reading ember's in game description

~Ember is a nightmare for light-armoured targets. Ember can super-heat the air which opens up surprising crowd-control possibilities.~

except there's nothing really surprising.... CC is limited to spamming fireblast and accelerant.

Light armored would be the infested and the corpus.... And at a certain point in time corpus shields are so large that you need viral or magnetic damage to deal with them, fire just bounces off their shields. Same with armor. But you obviously don't play any high tier stuff where enemies are higher then level 30.

 

You obviously didn't read my post very well as I never said she needed to play like other frames. I said she can't match their damage. And 8000 damage to a single target is pretty weak. Also what level was this enemy? Sayrn can easily do 10k damage to a group of enemies for about 25 energy. Nova can do about 800k damage to any enemy hit by antimatter absorb, Excalibur can do 20k damage per energy wave and even more if he can get his combo counter up. Frost after rework can halve any enemy with snowglobe and his avalanche reduces armor. Ember's damage is pathetic, she has no usefulness to a team and she desperately needs a rework.

Accelerant is restrictive, Her damage is low and she has no scaling

 

(also Anything that needs a crutch do damage isn't very good at its job. Energy pads are a crutch. )

 

Friend, you're biased and so am I. I play almost 100% Ember all the time these days in various survivals to 50 minutes or beyond. And my performance is consistently good. I very rarely see anyone playing any of the other frames to top potential. But people still do alright up to an hour if they're up for it. Myself I have a very easy and enjoyable time on Ember. My opinion that her damage is good is based on the fact that I have wear an extinguished key to not get bored in most survivals. That quarters all of my damage except for WoF's burns and on 1 CP my damage stays fine up 50 minutes. It's hard to compare WoF's output to Miasma because they are very different beasts. One is a burst spell that makes up 100% of a frames damage output if they're using it to its highest potential. Another is an passive automatic targeting aura with that can multihit and apply burns to targets and still becomes only a part of the frames damage output used to its maximum potential.

 

Ember isn't like Saryn. And vice versa. They offer very different gameplay experiences. If WoF outdamaged Miasma Saryn would be quite underpowered because Ember can do so much else while WoF is active. Likewise with frames like Mesa and Ash and even Excalibur to a degree. Their abilities and gunplay don't flow together the way Ember's does so they don't really compare well to her. Ember offers very different opportunities because of her freedom of action in the use of her abilities. She can effectively use all 4 abilities simultaneously without lose much from her gun/weapon-play. Saryn is a nuke, Mesa a turret, Excalibur a guided missile. Ember is an armada or a gun-ship that can call in support airstrikes. The specialized weapons should perform their function well. And in my opinion Ember performs her function well as a versatile choice with a combination of weapons.

 

Frames like Mirage and Equinox compare much better with Ember. As they also have duration based damage and enhancement abilities that support their weapon-play. I haven't played them so I can't speak of their play compared to Ember. They both seem like strong choices but as I have stated I have no problem making a strong contribution to missions on the basis of Ember's merits. And most importantly I have a lot of fun with my chosen frame, which is why I'm not in a rush to migrate to one of those other two that might play like Ember.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Ryjeon

[ivlr3vil]

She's far from weak like how people make her out to be, I have an exilus rush mod on mine and ever since the armor boost she's been easy to use on voids. You can definitely hit late game with little problems. With an atomos, things die really quickly.

 

It's not like squishy was ever a problem for me since I've played Limbo and Banshee to late game. Just play smart and don't run into enemy fire, when you see an enemy about to do the ground pound knockdown, jump and parkour. Not to mention parkour makes enemy accuracy reduced, as confirmed by dev streams and Steve on twitter.

 

With accelerant and rush, you almost never get shot at.

 

As for PvP, I feel like WoF could use a tweak just because her third ability seems so much better than her fourth there.

Edited September 1, 2015 by ivlr3vil