Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[shut]

People hate change. but at the same time, people complain that they want to remove the whole "3 mods are NEEDED" for every weapon.

 

The problem that I have with this change is that the "3 mods are NEEDED" turns into "4 mods are NEEDED". 'Cause everyone's just going to slap on a mutator and go about as normal, really.

 

I'm all for the reduction in "necessary" mods, which is precisely why I'm against this change-- it'll accomplish the exact opposite of what it tries to do.

Edited September 8, 2015 by SortaRandom

[P0TAT0CANN0N]

DE doesn't get the changes correct right off the bat, yes that's true, but they do eventually fine tune it out. 

After a month and that was for one weapon.

 

That isn't exactly a short amount of time.

 

Imagine them re-balancing EVERY SINGLE WEAPON.

[SquirmyBurrito]

My Latron Prime without Split Chamber can kill enemies in a solo void survival reliably up until they reach about level 70. If I pushed it to the point when I run out of ammo, I can probably stay until the enemies were level 75 to 80. With Split Chamber, I can do the same up until they reach somewhere between 90 and 100. The survival times were 45 mins and 60 mins respectively. Given that it's possible to get two full rotations in a survival mission without having any oxygen problems, I think that Split Chamber isn't entirely necessary and I don't mind if they make changes to Split Chamber.

 

Nothing in the game except for Trials, long endless mission, and some nightmare events will have enemies that high level. In other words, you should be able to clear the whole star chart, void missions, and Derelict without Split Chamber on a rifle. Sure it will be a little harder because you're not doing as much damage, but I didn't think it was that bad after using for half an hour or so in the survival mission. You should give it a try.

 

Secondaries and Shotguns will get hit harder without the multishot though because their mods provide more than 100% multishot.

 

My issue isn't with how the removal of split chamber would affect my damage it is with how making multishot consume extra ammo would affect its performance on weapons that already have terrible ammo efficiency. The same weapons that people say 'just slap an ammo mutation mod on it' as if that is a fix.

 

 

No! The rational discussion! It BURNS!!!

 

Rational how? That person's post didn't actually address any of the main concerns surrounding the proposed multishot fix as it has been represented.

 

Making multishot burn extra ammo means it works well on weapons that already had good ammo economy, and turns it into the bane of any synoid gammacor/wraith twin vipers, twin grakata-like weapon's (high RoF, terrible ammo economy as a result) existence. Weapons like the Opticor users will still benefit immensely from its existence, while many the users of many of the other kinds of weapons will find themselves having to mainline ammo restores and slot ammo mutation mods to keep up. 

 

And as someone said earlier:

 

Dont they realize that changing it into a ammo consuming thing changes it into a rof mod not a dmg mod....

Why even bother.

Edited September 8, 2015 by SquirmyBurrito

[EmptyDevil]

My Latron Prime without Split Chamber can kill enemies in a solo void survival reliably up until they reach about level 70. If I pushed it to the point when I run out of ammo, I can probably stay until the enemies were level 75 to 80. With Split Chamber, I can do the same up until they reach somewhere between 90 and 100. The survival times were 45 mins and 60 mins respectively. Given that it's possible to get two full rotations in a survival mission without having any oxygen problems, I think that Split Chamber isn't entirely necessary and I don't mind if they make changes to Split Chamber.

 

Nothing in the game except for Trials, long endless mission, and some nightmare events will have enemies that high level. In other words, you should be able to clear the whole star chart, void missions, and Derelict without Split Chamber on a rifle. Sure it will be a little harder because you're not doing as much damage, but I didn't think it was that bad after using for half an hour or so in the survival mission. You should give it a try.

 

Secondaries and Shotguns will get hit harder without the multishot though because their mods provide more than 100% multishot.

 

This is very true. Me and a friend tried replacing Split Chamber with damage/status mods to kill lv90+ Bombards. The amount of rounds it takes to bring one down is nearly identical. Players are just exaggerating a lot from what i can tell.

[Aimop95]

I am not painting out the worst case scenario, you are painting out the best case scenario. I used the AABC thing as ONE example to show how if DE isn't willing to change that, then why would they reward you every minute/wave? My entire argument never rested on it, but yours rests in your faith to DE, which history as shown is not a wise choice.  

 

How has DE been shrewd in keeping the grind down as of recent? Have you seen the build requirements for the grattler/knux? Equinox? The stupid grind wall that is mesa farming and brings the problem of keysharing into the light? How about ash prime access part placement? T3D,E and S are already saturated and weighted with useless junk. 

 

If their intention was to fix power creep, then it would have come out all at once. They didn't release PK 2.0 piece by piece, no they did it all at once. To save it for a later update just pisses people off. 

 

Starchart 3.0 will still have a substantial amount of grind. You may not be farming the void constantly, but rest assured you will still be in farmframe. Plus, that argument still doesn't counter the players that want to do a high amount of rotations anyways. They will still not be able to out dps enemies. It is more about choice than anything. Some people like staying 40+ mins, others like to leave at 20. Multishot nerf will make 40+ mins unbearable.

 

Also, I mentioned how the new meta would shape to be like, but no. Apparently my entire argument is revolved around "A,A,B,C".

You never mentioned the new meta or weapon/mod diversity in your post, so I'm going to assume that you agree with that sentiment. 

So what is your argument based on then? Please clarify. 

 

I said DE was shrewd in keeping the grind at JUST playable levels, I never said they were a walk in the park. They know that the best way to keep players is to keep them grinding, but not at impossible levels, which is what would happen if multishot was changed right now, with no other changes made. To be honest, we don't know how much they're going to buff/rebalance the weapons or even if they will change enemy scaling. But to not do so is a surefire way to end warframe as a successful game, which I'm certain they don't want to happen.

 

Hell I'd love it to come out in one go as well, but I don't expect the first iteration of power creep fixing to be spot on. Even PK 2.0 could use another update to deal with the new melee blocking issue (and a previous Devstream did mention how they wanted to make blocking scale with weapon level, but never got around to implementing the idea when the update came).

 

You can't out dps enemies now in high-level endless modes, and you're still assuming that enemy scaling will be the same (or that weapon rebalancing will not be enough to make up for the lack of damage) when the multishot changes role out. 

 

There is always going to be a new "meta", and honestly people will always complain that one meta or another is limited in its scope. Besides, the basis for why (to me it sounds like) you're concerned about limited weapon diversity is because you don't believe that weapons will be appropriately balanced in order to make up for the multishot changes. A basis which ignores the fact that DE has clearly stated in the devstream that they know that such changes to multishot would require a MASSIVE rework of the entire weapon kit.

 

Now if you don't put much stock into what DE says in devstream, then nothing I say will make you think otherwise, but then I don't know why you still play this game if you think it'll go down the toilet once the multishot changes come about.

[Aimop95]

After a month and that was for one weapon.

 

That isn't exactly a short amount of time.

 

Imagine them re-balancing EVERY SINGLE WEAPON.

You make it sound like they're going to do the change a week after they announced it in devstream.

 

All we know is that they have plans to change it, and considering how long they spent on PK 2.0, I think it's reasonable to believe that they'll spend just as long or more to make sure that when the change happens, it will happen as smoothly as PK 2.0 happened.

[P0TAT0CANN0N]

You make it sound like they're going to do the change a week after they announced it in devstream.

 

All we know is that they have plans to change it, and considering how long they spent on PK 2.0, I think it's reasonable to believe that they'll spend just as long or more to make sure that when the change happens, it will happen as smoothly as PK 2.0 happened.

They don't exactly have a clean record you know.

[unbeweavable]

I really don't care about the change.i don't like the fact that they lied and said it was a bug for 2+ years..

 

should have said something like QoL improvement maybe people wouldn't be lashing out like this.

[Aimop95]

They don't exactly have a clean record you know.

No, they don't, but then not many other companies do. But PK 2.0 proved to me that they are capable of pulling off major core game changes without destroying their game and changing multishot is essentially a damage 2.5 update. 

[TheBrsrkr]

They don't exactly have a clean record you know.

Then we'll just have to wait and see.

[(PSN)PillarOfWar]

Is multishot taking more ammo going to make the game funner?

[(XBOX)RFIZZLEDIZZLE]

So what is your argument based on then? Please clarify. 

 

I said DE was shrewd in keeping the grind at JUST playable levels, I never said they were a walk in the park. They know that the best way to keep players is to keep them grinding, but not at impossible levels, which is what would happen if multishot was changed right now, with no other changes made. To be honest, we don't know how much they're going to buff/rebalance the weapons or even if they will change enemy scaling. But to not do so is a surefire way to end warframe as a successful game, which I'm certain they don't want to happen.

 

Hell I'd love it to come out in one go as well, but I don't expect the first iteration of power creep fixing to be spot on. Even PK 2.0 could use another update to deal with the new melee blocking issue (and a previous Devstream did mention how they wanted to make blocking scale with weapon level, but never got around to implementing the idea when the update came).

 

You can't out dps enemies now in high-level endless modes, and you're still assuming that enemy scaling will be the same (or that weapon rebalancing will not be enough to make up for the lack of damage) when the multishot changes role out. 

 

There is always going to be a new "meta", and honestly people will always complain that one meta or another is limited in its scope. Besides, the basis for why (to me it sounds like) you're concerned about limited weapon diversity is because you don't believe that weapons will be appropriately balanced in order to make up for the multishot changes. A basis which ignores the fact that DE has clearly stated in the devstream that they know that such changes to multishot would require a MASSIVE rework of the entire weapon kit.

 

Now if you don't put much stock into what DE says in devstream, then nothing I say will make you think otherwise, but then I don't know why you still play this game if you think it'll go down the toilet once the multishot changes come about.

I am basing my argument around the current meta and scaling as well as weapon ammunition consumption and restoration.  It is also based on the fact that this nerf will limit build variety even more and enforce a stricter meta.

 

Also, don't think that DE will rebalance enemies. I have already tried explaining it. They know that the nerf announcement would hit a nerve in the community. If they didn't want to have to do damage control, then they would've/should've said something about a scaling 2.0 system but they didn't. You are being extremely optimistic. 

 

Believing that DE knows the best amount of grind is just asking them to increase it even more. Guns have drop-off right now at some point depending on the weapon, but with the proposed nerf it will come a lot sooner, and that enforces a stricter meta approach for anybody trying to farm as many rotations as was previously achievable. You can use frames to increase damage with weapons like roar, vex armor, total eclipse mirage, and electric shield, but the fall-off will still come at some point and DE is reducing that point substantially with the nerf.

 

You misinterpreted my example of PK 2.0. I compared because PK 2.0's first iteration if fully complete. Yes it does need some tweaks, but just releasing a multi-shot nerf without doing ANYTHING else isn't going to magically tone down enemy scaling. The first iteration of whatever the multishot nerf is supposed to represent should be released all at once like PK 2.0, not in pieces. Releasing it in pieces makes the gameplay broken until the full system is out. We didn't get bullet jump in one update and then aim glide in another, we got it all at the same time. That was my point which you missed.

 

Yeah, there will always be a new meta, but the one DE has in mind with the nerf is going to be worse than the one we have now since a good chunk of weapon archetypes will be useless in higher level play. The lex prime and Latron Wraith/prime heavy hitter archetype will reign supreme due to ammo efficiency and ammo mutation mods will be necessary to keep the cost of multishot going. DE also said the same thing about reworks in the movement from damage 1.0 to 2.0. It's been over a year, and yet the flux rifle and acrid are still garbage tier. Again, as I have previously stated, history is not on their side. 

 

I play this game because I enjoy it. I criticize the actions of it's devs because I care enough to. If multishot nerf comes without a revamp to the enitre system, I am just going to take a break until DE gets their act together. 

[ss4chris]

i was curious what the WF community really thought of multishot "fix" nerf so i made a poll. Another poll maybe made if DE does release a "test" update of their experiment to compare and see where it may stand.But i made this poll to show or try to show DE what the community really thinks or so the poll say.

 

At the current time of this post

 

130 total votes

 

18% says yes for multishot nerf or "fix"

 

while 82% says no multishot nerf or fix

 

link to the poll : http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=55ea1510e4b0c3d16faaaf73

 

sometimes its best to leave things on their own or alone.Also Multishot is well multi - shot or multiple in a shot. So would have to correct multishot to multishots to make logic of the mod IF  this happens but I personally hope it doesn't.

idk waht this poll is going to accomplish. DE is going to do what they want listening to us or not. we just gotta accept and move on and adapt.

[vashyoung]

cant stop DE... must live with it... they already got a set of plan for this changes, we just hope for a rainbow

Edited September 8, 2015 by vashyoung

[SquirmyBurrito]

idk waht this poll is going to accomplish. DE is going to do what they want listening to us or not. we just gotta accept and move on and adapt.

cant stop DE... must live with it... they already got a set of plan for this changes, we just hope for a rainbow

 

Community wide hatred for something has gotten things changed in the past. No reason why it wouldn't do the same here. Remember the Kubrow Scrambler?

[(PSN)PillarOfWar]

Community wide hatred for something has gotten things changed in the past. No reason why it wouldn't do the same here. Remember the Kubrow Scrambler?

And the Drac helmet

[EmptyDevil]

And the Drac helmet

 

That helmet is still the same. 

[ss4chris]

Community wide hatred for something has gotten things changed in the past. No reason why it wouldn't do the same here. Remember the Kubrow Scrambler?

 community went on a tangent of many things. some were reverted.. other stayed the same. neutral.

[ComCray]

If they change multishot to eat up extra ammo it would:

- make more sense, reality wise
- force one to think on where to put this mod (as opposed to waiting for mod points to slap it on) -maybe not on guns with bad ammo management

- force one to think on how to support it -magazine size, max ammo, ammo mutation)

- make looking at punch through mods an option, since I cant kill one enemy with multiple bullets, maybe I can kill more enemies with the bullets I AM firing
- it would make thinking about accuracy over raw power on bows and throwing weapons (and other non-hitscan weapons) interesting again

More to the point... It would add another interesting layer to the modding of the weapons we have. And damn, we SO need that in this game (IMHO), layers of complexity and depth...

 

[ss4chris]

If they change multishot to eat up extra ammo it would:

- make more sense, reality wise

- force one to think on where to put this mod (as opposed to waiting for mod points to slap it on) -maybe not on guns with bad ammo management

- force one to think on how to support it -magazine size, max ammo, ammo mutation)

- make looking at punch through mods an option, since I cant kill one enemy with multiple bullets, maybe I can kill more enemies with the bullets I AM firing

- it would make thinking about accuracy over raw power on bows and throwing weapons (and other non-hitscan weapons) interesting again

More to the point... It would add another interesting layer to the modding of the weapons we have. And damn, we SO need that in this game (IMHO), layers of complexity and depth...

 

no it would just make mods that were not used before used and probably mandatory ( ammo mutation/ ammo drum/ shred/ etc)

they probably just need to re-work everything at this point 

[TheBrsrkr]

no it would just make mods that were not used before used and probably mandatory ( ammo mutation/ ammo drum/ shred/ etc)

they probably just need to re-work everything at this point

Tell me more about how making a mid optional will make it even more required.

[DraccoDoom]

i was curious what the WF community really thought of multishot "fix" nerf so i made a poll. Another poll maybe made if DE does release a "test" update of their experiment to compare and see where it may stand.But i made this poll to show or try to show DE what the community really thinks or so the poll say.

 

At the current time of this post

 

130 total votes

 

18% says yes for multishot nerf or "fix"

 

while 82% says no multishot nerf or fix

 

link to the poll : http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=55ea1510e4b0c3d16faaaf73

 

sometimes its best to leave things on their own or alone.Also Multishot is well multi - shot or multiple in a shot. So would have to correct multishot to multishots to make logic of the mod IF  this happens but I personally hope it doesn't.

This shows the vocal minority that screamed for multishot change, 20% that's the user base that want the change.

[TheBrsrkr]

This shows the vocal minority that screamed for multishot change, 20% that's the user base that want the change.

This shows the of people that jump the gun when one guy asks an obviously loaded and biased question with almost no information on the topic.

[Endgame77]

Think about it..... the first year, DE had an operating cost of around $23 million. The last year im sure its been more, but for the sake of the argument, lets just double it. Thats two years, and $40+ million dollars fine tuning enemies (although poorly), and the rest of the game around our damage output. Add in power creep, and you have a giant mess. This change will not come anywhere close to fixing the mess we already have, and it would be a massive waste of resources trying to fix it.

 

Changes do need to be made, especially with multishot and serration. But this change and weapon adjusting isnt going to do anything but add to the problems. This suggestion goes much deeper than that.

 

I don't know about others, but I play Warframe specifically because it is different from every other shooter on the market in that it lets you be ridiculously overpowered in a variety of ways. From Trins healing, to Rhinos tanking to Mesas aimbot, the game lets you be stupidly powerful. If they want this game to be just another shooter, well I can go back to Destiny for that....

[Kira_Yamato]

The problem most people are making (and I would say, incorrectly) is the sheer MAGNITUDE this change is in comparison to other changes as well as the way in which it has been presented.  What do I mean?  Well lets use a few past examples:

 

1) Nova's Molecular Prime: changing from instant application within all at range vs what it is now, the expanding 'globe'

  This change was pretty big, and there were quite a few that were unhappy with it (I was too, I won't lie) however you could still achieve the same results, just in a different way.  And yes, it needed to be changed, but what it was changed too was ultimately the same thing, albeit in a different manner.  Before it was about range and efficiency, now efficiency and duration.

 

2) Excalibur's Radial Javelin: Ignoring terrain to line of sight only

  Lots freaked about this too, though some because of a, "radial javelin has been like this for a LONG time but oh yeah, it wasn't intended, so we're going to massively change how the ability works now, ktksbye" explination.  While the new excal changes are nice, I believe the biggest issue with this change was more due to HOW it was presented as opposed to WHAT was presented.

 

In the two changes above, were people unhappy (ignoring the fact that this is the internet and that's how it works), yes.  Did people get over it?  Yes.  However part of this was that the actual implimentation of the change was, in the end, balanced.  Also, the scale of these changes were drops in the ocean compared to the proposed multishot change.  To change multishot is to change the way every weapon in this game works, and you can not change just multishot without something else having to give, be it base damages, the strength/weakness of enemies, the raw power of frames abilities, and so on.

 

Many complain about how multishot "has" to change because it "has" to be apart of every weapon build.  However with the way high level enemies are designed, multishot is required.  People have said earlier in the thread that they use the same number of bullets with and without multishot to kill high level enemies, and are there some like that?  Yes.  Weapons with very high base damages are not going to be affected as much.  But weapons that rely on multishot to overcome their very small base damage to increase their burst dps will (like grakata's).  The "it has to change because it HAS to be apart of every build" argument is as much a testament to how necissary it has become for endgame content/raw damage on higher level enemies as it is how much changing multishot workings will have on the game period.

 

However the second issue with the proposed multishot changes, and what has, as I read more forum posts about the topic, become the far worse underlying issue, is the HOW it has been presented.  If we had just been told, "we have been looking multishot mods, how it is used, and how the community impliments it in our game, and ways to possibly tinker with it so that players feel the way to have more options other than just multishot" I believe 90% of the crazyness wouldn't be happening.  We'd still know they're looking at multishot, but we wouldn't feel insulted or toyed with (purposefuly intended or not) with the initial response we were given of, "We've known this is an issue for years, but we're going to call it an unintended bug now and do massive drastic changes to a key component of the game with only limited and sketchy information".  Much like with excal's radial jav, the issue of HOW we were told about this exhasperates the issue of WHAT is being changed.

 

So we need to know more details before a better judgement can be given?  Yes.  Was the poll unneccisary?  No.  With the information we were given, the community is voicing it's concern (despite the trolls) about what they do know by what DE has told them.  There's nothing wrong with voicing your opinion as long as it's done reasonably.  However again, due to how embeded multishot is in the current system, to change it as drastically as mentioned without other balances will wreck how the game works.

 

On the point of the mastery system, I'm also concerned with what weapons are placed where, since as metioned previously, it can lock lower leveled players in only mediocre builds/damage brackets until much later, locking the amount of content they can do, but I'll reserve judgement until I see a more detailed layouton that.

 

And lastly, I don't think that just because a few people support something means that the others are automatically just sheeple or whatever, the minority can be right but it can also be wrong.